Trump Dump: Foreign Policy (Thread I)

[The Romulan Republic]

If I thought Trump was bright enough to think of it and non-egocentric enough to risk a hit to his reputation (diminished though it is) as a businessman/winner, I'd think that this was a deliberate effort to tank the economy so that they could use the resulting depression to whip up more hate against immigrants and foreigners.

[Simon_Jester]

That would be... very smart-stupid. Strongmen who tank the economy generally lose enough credit that redirecting the blame won't help. The typical parameters for a strongman are to take credit for someone else's economic recovery, by which standard the ideal time to take over in the US was, say, 2012. 2016 is a risky point because the current rise of the financial sector is... questionably tenable.

[mr friendly guy]

One of the brainbugs that have come up is "Trump is a businessman, therefore he understands the economy," is really irritating. Its like saying a psychiatrist would understand surgery because both psychiatry and surgery are part of modern medicine.

A businessman like Trump might know how to run some businesses (with daddy's money bailing him out), but that doesn't transfer to the entire economy.

A US steel producer only knows that they are hurting. They don't know about manufacturers who use steel, and they don't realise (or don't care) about the cost to US manufacturers who use foreign steel.

[mr friendly guy]

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/08/trump-s ... thers.html

Tariffs are in place. Canada and Mexico are exempted which weakens his promise. No doubt he and Navarro will spin it as a victory. I await the retaliation from the EU.

[bilateralrope]

On Friday, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker discussed putting tariffs on blue jeans, bourbon, and Harley-Davidson motorcycles, three iconic American exports,

One podcast I'm listening to claimed that, if the EU imposes these tariffs, they will hit jobs in areas voting for major Trump supporters in the senate/congress. Unfortunately I can't remember the details.

[Simon_Jester]

One of the brainbugs that have come up is "Trump is a businessman, therefore he understands the economy," is really irritating. Its like saying a psychiatrist would understand surgery because both psychiatry and surgery are part of modern medicine.

No.

It's like saying a glutton knows how to make doughnuts, because he has eaten so many.

[The Romulan Republic]

That would be... very smart-stupid. Strongmen who tank the economy generally lose enough credit that redirecting the blame won't help. The typical parameters for a strongman are to take credit for someone else's economic recovery, by which standard the ideal time to take over in the US was, say, 2012. 2016 is a risky point because the current rise of the financial sector is... questionably tenable.

There are times when I am deeply grateful that if fascism was going to come to America, it at least came in the form of someone so inept as Trump.

But then, Hitler was pretty inept in some ways, too. Even an incompetent man can be a deadly threat in the wrong circumstances.

[Thanas]

So after firing Tillerson, the replacements Trump nominates are.....Pompeo for SecState and Gina Haspel for CIA director to replace Pompeo.

Pompeo is pro-torture.

Gina Haspel actually was in charge of a secret torture center in Thailand and might have European arrest warrants soon out for her.

GG USA.

[The Romulan Republic]

Trump wants people who will have no scruples about engaging in civil rights violations on his orders. What a surprise.

[Thanas]

This "woman" should be up against the wall, not up for a posting.

[Thanas]

The Democrats on the HIC just released a pdf with their details on Trump being influenced by Russia and the russian campaign for Trump.

Worth reading.
Link

Especially interesting is the section of people the GOP refused to call....aka everybody involved with the Trump Tower meeting.

[Crossroads Inc.]

In other new, Trump brags about Straigh up lying to Canadian PM

" 'Trudeau came to see me. He's a good guy, Justin. He said, "No, no, we have no trade deficit with you, we have none. Donald, please," ' Trump said, mimicking Trudeau, according to audio of the private event in Missouri obtained by The Washington Post. 'Nice guy, good-looking guy, comes in — "Donald, we have no trade deficit." He's very proud because everybody else, you know, we're getting killed.[/b]

" ' ... So, he's proud. I said, "Wrong, Justin, you do." I didn't even know. ... I had no idea. I just said, "You're wrong." You know why? Because we're so stupid. ... And I thought they were smart. I said, "You're wrong, Justin." He said, "Nope, we have no trade deficit." I said, "Well, in that case, I feel differently," I said, "but I don't believe it." I sent one of our guys out, his guy, my guy, they went out, I said, "Check, because I can't believe it." ' "

Ladies and gentlemen... the American president!!!

[Raj Ahten]

This "woman" should be up against the wall, not up for a posting.

Agreed. Being intimately involved in a torture program is officially a good career move in today's US government. The new director is also heavily responsible for deleting the tapes if the torture that were produced. Frankly it is beyond a farce.
Anyone trying to claim the US has any kind of moral authority now is a moron until this kind of thing is repudiated in some meaningful way.

[The Romulan Republic]

The current administration is proto-fascist Quislings, in the process of becoming a full-blown fascist Russian proxy state. End of story. Any attempt at preserving anything of value in the US starts with getting them out of office (and preferably into federal prison).

It doesn't end there, though. Then we have to address the systemic weaknesses (undermining voting rights, widespread political cynicism and apathy, poor investigative journalism, general lack of spine from liberals and progressives, etc.) that made this mess possible in the first place.

[Thanas]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... 32a37a7ba6

[K. A. Pital]

The current administration is proto-fascist Quislings, in the process of becoming a full-blown fascist Russian proxy state. End of story.

Russian proxy state, which constantly keeps imposing new sanctions on its supposed metropole? TRR, I feel for you having to live under Trump, but don't go crazy.

At best, the relationship between US and Russia could be described as an uneasy relationship between two authoritarian regimes, like between Putin and Erdogan. They're not each other's proxies.

[The Romulan Republic]

The current administration is proto-fascist Quislings, in the process of becoming a full-blown fascist Russian proxy state. End of story.

Russian proxy state, which constantly keeps imposing new sanctions on its supposed metropole? TRR, I feel for you having to live under Trump, but don't go crazy.

I said "in the process of becoming a full-blown fascist Russian proxy state."

At the moment, there are multiple factions, with multiple agendas, in our government. Trump has shown himself to be, in many ways, willing to accomadate Putin even at the expense of America and its allies. Congress is somewhat less willing to do so.

So right now, their are multiple factions pushing multiple agendas. Which one will win out remains to be seen.

At best, the relationship between US and Russia could be described as an uneasy relationship between two authoritarian regimes, like between Putin and Erdogan. They're not each other's proxies.

Perhaps "proxy" is overstating it. But on too many issues, Trump is wrapped around Putin's finger, or at the very least, their interests closely coincide.

[Napoleon the Clown]

TRR, you're overselling it. Putin does not expect the US to actively to things that immediately benefit Russia. He's interested in sewing chaos in the US and paralyzing its ability to flex its military and political might across the globe. Not out of any sort of interest in stopping us from harming people. But in interest of being able to do whatever the hell he wants.

Putin knows damn well that he can't make the US a de facto Russian state. He knows that the rest of the government will eventually wake the fuck up and grow a spine to prevent policies that blatantly serve Russian interests. But he also knows that by helping a complete dipshit to the highest office, a dipshit that he may well have embarrassing dirt on, he can destabilize things so that the US will be in no condition to stop him from rebuilding the Soviet Union in some form or another.

The goal is not proxy state. The goal is a state that is too paralyzed and inwardly focused to accomplish anything that will interfere with Putin's goals.

[The Romulan Republic]

TRR, you're overselling it. Putin does not expect the US to actively to things that immediately benefit Russia. He's interested in sewing chaos in the US and paralyzing its ability to flex its military and political might across the globe. Not out of any sort of interest in stopping us from harming people. But in interest of being able to do whatever the hell he wants.

Putin knows damn well that he can't make the US a de facto Russian state. He knows that the rest of the government will eventually wake the fuck up and grow a spine to prevent policies that blatantly serve Russian interests. But he also knows that by helping a complete dipshit to the highest office, a dipshit that he may well have embarrassing dirt on, he can destabilize things so that the US will be in no condition to stop him from rebuilding the Soviet Union in some form or another.

The goal is not proxy state. The goal is a state that is too paralyzed and inwardly focused to accomplish anything that will interfere with Putin's goals.

I think its a bit of both. Putin will take full advantage of having someone susceptible to his manipulations in the White House to do things like undermine NATO unity, refuse to enact sanctions on Russia that passed with overwhelming bipartisan support, etc.

And Trump has done some very specific Kremlin-friendly things. From the above-mentioned points, to arguably his firing of Tillerson as Secretary of State (which took place immediately after Tillerson publicly sided with Britain against Russia in the nerve agent attack).

But if Trump goes down, Putin will also play that to his benefit, as you said- to destabilize and discredit the US, and democracy in general (which is already happening even with Trump in office). And if Trump ceases to be useful to him, I daresay he has enough dirt on Trump to throw him under the bus in the most disruptive manner possible.

Its very telling that among the things the last slew of indictments accused Russians of was setting up rival groups of protesters in the wake of Trump's election. IIRC, there was also a story a while back about them setting up a pro-Texas secession site. And the NRA connections... sometimes I think that the ultimate goal is to forment widespread political violence in the US.

[Vympel]

I think its a bit of both. Putin will take full advantage of having someone susceptible to his manipulations in the White House to do things like undermine NATO unity, refuse to enact sanctions on Russia that passed with overwhelming bipartisan support, etc.

And Trump has done some very specific Kremlin-friendly things. From the above-mentioned points, to arguably his firing of Tillerson as Secretary of State (which took place immediately after Tillerson publicly sided with Britain against Russia in the nerve agent attack).

But if Trump goes down, Putin will also play that to his benefit, as you said- to destabilize and discredit the US, and democracy in general (which is already happening even with Trump in office). And if Trump ceases to be useful to him, I daresay he has enough dirt on Trump to throw him under the bus in the most disruptive manner possible.

Its very telling that among the things the last slew of indictments accused Russians of was setting up rival groups of protesters in the wake of Trump's election. IIRC, there was also a story a while back about them setting up a pro-Texas secession site. And the NRA connections... sometimes I think that the ultimate goal is to forment widespread political violence in the US.

Let's recall that when Trump appointed Tillerson, every Russiagater was screaming that Tillerson was Putin's Choice and a Russian stooge. Then when Trump sacks Tillerson, it's because firing him was Putin's Choice too. Apparently, we're supposed to believe that Tillerson was a Russian stooge but he had an epiphany during his time at State and turned against Russia, so he was fired. Makes perfect sense.

Once again, like any good conspiracy theory Russiagate is simply immune to contrary facts. Any fact contrary to the conspiracy theory simply gets twisted, turned around, and then incorporated as further proof of the conspiracy.

And who is Trump's choice to replace Tillerson. Mike Pompeo. Notoriously Soft on Russia, he is.

The reality outside of the RussiaGate Bubble of Bullshit is that people have been lobbying for Tillerson to be sacked for months, and Gulf tyrannies like the UAE have been lobbying against him (because he wouldn't take their side on Qatar).

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43281519

The BBC has obtained leaked emails that show a lobbying effort to get US Secretary of State Rex Tillerson sacked for failing to support the United Arab Emirates against regional rival Qatar.

Major Trump fundraiser and UAE-linked businessman Elliott Broidy met US President Donald Trump in October 2017 and urged him to sack Mr Tillerson, the emails reveal.

In other emails, he calls the top US diplomat "a tower of Jello", "weak" and says he "needs to be slammed".

Mr Broidy says Qatar hacked his emails.

"We have reason to believe this hack was sponsored and carried out by registered and unregistered agents of Qatar seeking to punish Mr Broidy for his strong opposition to state-sponsored terrorism," a spokesman for the businessman said.

He said some of the emails "may have been altered" but did not elaborate.

Saudi Arabia, UAE and a number of Arab countries cut diplomatic ties with Qatar in June 2017 over its alleged support for terrorism, a claim which it denies. The unprecedented move was seen as a major split between powerful Gulf countries, who are also close US allies.

Of course for anyone who is familiar with the way the US government shamelessly gargles the testicles of Gulf tyrannies like the UAE and Saudi Arabia, that they disliked Tillerson is a far better explanation for his sacking than Tillerson engaging in some meaningless verbal me-tooing.

As to the notion that Trump acts in Russia's interests, that's a hilariously ridiculous claim given Trump is now selling arms to Ukraine and its coterie of Neo-Nazi militias. Something Obama repeatedly refused to do. It's a standing rebuttal to this insanity.

[The Romulan Republic]

Let's recall that when Trump appointed Tillerson, every Russiagater was screaming that Tillerson was Putin's Choice and a Russian stooge. Then when Trump sacks Tillerson, it's because firing him was Putin's Choice too. Apparently, we're supposed to believe that Tillerson was a Russian stooge but he had an epiphany during his time at State and turned against Russia, so he was fired. Makes perfect sense.

All that proves is that either a) some people were wrong about Tillerson (which does not prove that all accusations of collusion or Russian interference are therefore fake, any more than one scientific theory being discredited proves that science is a hoax), or that everyone has a line that they're not willing to cross, and that Tillerson reached his line before Trump did.

Or, possibly, that Tillerson doesn't want to go down with the sinking ship.

Once again, like any good conspiracy theory Russiagate is simply immune to contrary facts. Any fact contrary to the conspiracy theory simply gets twisted, turned around, and then incorporated as further proof of the conspiracy.

You've got a lot of nerve to lecture me about twisting or ignore evidence, and to call me a conspiracy theorist, when you are dismissing the conclusions of the entire US intelligence community and the Trump campaign's own emails.

And who is Trump's choice to replace Tillerson. Mike Pompeo. Notoriously Soft on Russia, he is.

Perhaps, but their are multiple agendas going on in the Trump White House. Russia is a part of it, but I doubt anyone, even the most hardened opponent of Russian collusion, claims that everything is about Russia. What Trump wants above all are yes men, who will follow his line regardless of their personal views. From everything I've heard, Pompeo is that for Trump.

All this proves is that you can cherry-pick evidence. Which every halfway-competent troll can do, so I'm not terribly impressed.

Remember also that Trump constantly contradicts himself, in all likelihood at least partly as a deliberate tactic to obfuscate issues and confuse the opposition.

The reality outside of the RussiaGate Bubble of Bullshit is that people have been lobbying for Tillerson to be sacked for months, and Gulf tyrannies like the UAE have been lobbying against him (because he wouldn't take their side on Qatar).

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43281519

Those may be factors. But at the very least, it reflects rather badly on Trump, and on his judgment, that he would sack Tillerson immediately after his statements on the nerve agent attack.

In any case, even if Tillerson was not fired over Russia, it doesn't prove that all accusations of collusion and interference are "fake news", except in the minds of Trump/Putin apologists.

The BBC has obtained leaked emails that show a lobbying effort to get US Secretary of State Rex Tillerson sacked for failing to support the United Arab Emirates against regional rival Qatar.

Major Trump fundraiser and UAE-linked businessman Elliott Broidy met US President Donald Trump in October 2017 and urged him to sack Mr Tillerson, the emails reveal.

In other emails, he calls the top US diplomat "a tower of Jello", "weak" and says he "needs to be slammed".

Mr Broidy says Qatar hacked his emails.

"We have reason to believe this hack was sponsored and carried out by registered and unregistered agents of Qatar seeking to punish Mr Broidy for his strong opposition to state-sponsored terrorism," a spokesman for the businessman said.

He said some of the emails "may have been altered" but did not elaborate.

Saudi Arabia, UAE and a number of Arab countries cut diplomatic ties with Qatar in June 2017 over its alleged support for terrorism, a claim which it denies. The unprecedented move was seen as a major split between powerful Gulf countries, who are also close US allies.

Of course for anyone who is familiar with the way the US government shamelessly gargles the testicles of Gulf tyrannies like the UAE and Saudi Arabia, that they disliked Tillerson is a far better explanation for his sacking than Tillerson engaging in some meaningless verbal me-tooing.[/quote]

That all may well have been factors in his firing. I don't deny that.

What I do deny is that this proves Russia played no role in it, and certainly I deny that this somehow discredits the Russian interference/collusion allegations in their entirety, as you seem to believe.

I also think that it is entirely typical of the Putin apologist crowd to latch onto anything they can use to deflect the topic into discussions of how bad US foreign policy is, as a way of discrediting allegations against Russia.

As to the notion that Trump acts in Russia's interests, that's a hilariously ridiculous claim given Trump is now selling arms to Ukraine and its coterie of Neo-Nazi militias. Something Obama repeatedly refused to do. It's a standing rebuttal to this insanity.

Trump acts in (what he perceives to be) Trump's interests. He will work with Russia against America and its allies if it benefits him. He will work with Ukraine if its benefits him. That you think Trump being a double-dealing turncoat is "a standing rebuttal" against the notion that he could have colluded with Russia, then you're an idiot and a tool. Or, more likely, a shameless liar.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Well Trump is starting a trade war with China, sticking tariffs on its steel.

Link.

[Vympel]

All that proves is that either a) some people were wrong about Tillerson (which does not prove that all accusations of collusion or Russian interference are therefore fake, any more than one scientific theory being discredited proves that science is a hoax)

That's a terrible analogy, obviously. If one were to use science as an analogy, then TrumpRussia Insanity isn't 'science', it's a hypothesis.

or that everyone has a line that they're not willing to cross, and that Tillerson reached his line before Trump did.

Yeah, so in other words, the moment it became useful to TrumpRussia Bullshit Artists, Tillerson went from Putin's Stooge (in a way that no one ever actually explained or proved, ever) to Man Who Reached the Line.

Or, possibly, that Tillerson doesn't want to go down with the sinking ship.

Yeah dude, the Ship Is Sinking. Any day now, Trump will be led away in handcuffs!

You've got a lot of nerve to lecture me about twisting or ignore evidence, and to call me a conspiracy theorist, when you are dismissing the conclusions of the entire US intelligence community

Since when did the entire US intelligence community conclude that Trump colluded with Russia? Because I'm pretty sure that's never. Or are you aping their "17 intelligence agencies" propaganda canard about "Russian interference" and turning that into "Trump Russia collusion!"

and the Trump campaign's own emails.

LOL, what about their emails? If their emails proved what you think they proved, how come no one's been charged over what you think they say?

Perhaps, but their are multiple agendas going on in the Trump White House. Russia is a part of it, but I doubt anyone, even the most hardened opponent of Russian collusion, claims that everything is about Russia. What Trump wants above all are yes men, who will follow his line regardless of their personal views. From everything I've heard, Pompeo is that for Trump.

So Trump is a Russian Stooge but because of Multiple Agendas (?!), he'll decide to hire a notorious anti-Russian ultra-hawk who wants to do stuff that Russia hates - because he's a yes man. It all makes sense!

All this proves is that you can cherry-pick evidence. Which every halfway-competent troll can do, so I'm not terribly impressed.

Pointing out that the person Trump is replacing Russian Stooge Tillerson with is a notorious ultra-hawk is somehow "cherry picking", lol.

Remember also that Trump constantly contradicts himself, in all likelihood at least partly as a deliberate tactic to obfuscate issues and confuse the opposition.

So in service of the conspiracy, Trump Is Playing 3D Chess Now. He's not a TV game show host whose brain is turning into jello, he's a Master Deceiver.

Those may be factors. But at the very least, it reflects rather badly on Trump, and on his judgment, that he would sack Tillerson immediately after his statements on the nerve agent attack.

Yes because that's what we're discussing, how bad Trump's judgment is.

In any case, even if Tillerson was not fired over Russia, it doesn't prove that all accusations of collusion and interference are "fake news", except in the minds of Trump/Putin apologists.

I never said it did. What I did was point out how Tillerson illustrates how nicely this conspiracy theory works. Like any conspiracy theory, its totally unfalsifiable because any contrary evidence is to the conspiracy theorist - just further proof of the conspiracy.

"But he did that to throw everyone off the trail! It's ALL CONNECTED"

That all may well have been factors in his firing. I don't deny that.

What I do deny is that this proves Russia played no role in it

Literally no evidence whatsoever on planet Earth that Russia played a role in it. Not incumbent on anyone to prove a negative.

and certainly I deny that this somehow discredits the Russian interference/collusion allegations in their entirety, as you seem to believe.

Your attempts to distract from the actual point (Tillerson and conspiracy theory logic) couldn't get any more obvious.

I also think that it is entirely typical of the Putin apologist crowd to latch onto anything they can use to deflect the topic into discussions of how bad US foreign policy is, as a way of discrediting allegations against Russia.

On your fun little neo-McCarthyite red-baiter merry-go-round once again, aren't we? Go back to the 1950s, for fuck's sake. It's embarassing.

Trump acts in (what he perceives to be) Trump's interests. He will work with Russia against America and its allies if it benefits him. He will work with Ukraine if its benefits him.

But I thought you said Putin had Trump wrapped around his finger? It's funny how your claim morphs to much weaker variants the moment you're challenged on it.

That you think Trump being a double-dealing turncoat

Oh ho. So the Big Fucking Idiot Russia Conspiracy Plot goes a little something like this:

1. Trump colluded with Russia to steal American Democracy
2. In exchange, Trump agreed to do with Putin Wants
3. Trump is a 'double-dealing turncoat' though, which explains everytime he does something that the Russians plainly don't want him to do, like expand NATO, build up forces along Russia's border, undermine the Syrian government, or sell lethal arms to Ukraine.
4. Trump is still a Russian Stooge despite 3, so he got so concerned at Tillerson following the British line for the nerve agent attack he immediately fired him.

It all makes sense!

is "a standing rebuttal" against the notion that he could have colluded with Russia, then you're an idiot and a tool. Or, more likely, a shameless liar.

I love it how you use "liar" in contexts where it makes no sense at all.

[Ziggy Stardust]

So the Big Fucking Idiot Russia Conspiracy Plot goes a little something like this:

1. Trump colluded with Russia to steal American Democracy
2. In exchange, Trump agreed to do with Putin Wants
3. Trump is a 'double-dealing turncoat' though, which explains everytime he does something that the Russians plainly don't want him to do, like expand NATO, build up forces along Russia's border, undermine the Syrian government, or sell lethal arms to Ukraine.
4. Trump is still a Russian Stooge despite 3, so he got so concerned at Tillerson following the British line for the nerve agent attack he immediately fired him.

The real argument that most reasonable people, including the US intelligence community, have is more in line with what Napoleon the Clown articulated rather well only a few posts ago. Namely, not that Trump is Putin's "stooge" in any meaningful sense, but that Putin and Russia did at least attempt to interfere in the election, potentially with at least some tacit acceptance on the part of Trump's campaign, since it would be a way of weakening American influence overseas. Not that he necessarily expects Trump to act in Russia's best interests in 100% of all situations, or that Trump is not immune to any of the other myriad pressures acting on the US political scene (including our unfortunate fealty to the Gulf emirates, as you so correctly pointed out).

Whether or not you believe what speculation and evidence is currently available, you can at least admit that the argument being made by most reasonable people is a lot more nuanced than you seem to give it credit.

[Vympel]

The real argument that most reasonable people, including the US intelligence community, have is more in line with what Napoleon the Clown articulated rather well only a few posts ago. Namely, not that Trump is Putin's "stooge" in any meaningful sense, but that Putin and Russia did at least attempt to interfere in the election, potentially with at least some tacit acceptance on the part of Trump's campaign, since it would be a way of weakening American influence overseas. Not that he necessarily expects Trump to act in Russia's best interests in 100% of all situations, or that Trump is not immune to any of the other myriad pressures acting on the US political scene (including our unfortunate fealty to the Gulf emirates, as you so correctly pointed out).

Whether or not you believe what speculation and evidence is currently available, you can at least admit that the argument being made by most reasonable people is a lot more nuanced than you seem to give it credit.

That Russia may have attempted to meddle in the 2016 election for any number of reasons - without the active participation / connivance of the Trump campaign is of course far more believable than "Trump is Putin's puppet". But when someone talks about Tillerson getting sacked as part of some TrumpRussia! paradigm, you're well out of the realm of that formulation.