Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

[The Romulan Republic]

I'd not call it pettiness, exactly. But perhaps "short-tempered"? Or "dismissive"? She does seem very dismissive towards Poe, not only in her negative opinion of him and her refusing to appease his concerns (where I think she was somewhat justified), but in not taking him seriously as a threat despite his throwing a tantrum on the bridge until he literally pulled a gun on her.

If I had to give her a single major flaw, I'd say "complacency" might fit best. I just don't think it has a clear basis/motivation like Leia's fear of loss or Rey's family insecurity. Its perhaps inevitable that a new character will be less developed than a long-standing character, but I do think giving her a bit more depth might have helped the film.

Edit: How much is gender discrimination a thing in Star Wars? It was a big thing in the Empire under the old EU, but that seems to have been largely retconned under Disney.

If it were a major thing in Star Wars, then reading between the lines, I'd probably guess that Holdo had probably had to deal with a lot of people looking down on her abilities because of her gender, and thus resents being asked to justify herself to a cocky insubordinate, especially a young man. That could lead her to dismiss Poe as just motivated by petty sexism, and it would fit fairly well, even if giving her that backstory would basically be pouring gasoline on the political debates around gender in the ST. It would be a sympathetic motive to me, but not, I suspect, to some of her more virulent critics in the fandom.

But if gender discrimination isn't a big thing in the franchise now, I don't know if that works. But there might be other reasons why someone would feel that they were unfairly dismissed, and develop issues related to that.

[FaxModem1]

I'd not call it pettiness, exactly. But perhaps "short-tempered"? Or "dismissive"? She does seem very dismissive towards Poe, not only in her negative opinion of him and her refusing to appease his concerns (where I think she was somewhat justified), but in not taking him seriously as a threat despite his throwing a tantrum on the bridge until he literally pulled a gun on her.

If I had to give her a single major flaw, I'd say "complacency" might fit best. I just don't think it has a clear basis/motivation like Leia's fear of loss or Rey's family insecurity. Its perhaps inevitable that a new character will be less developed than a long-standing character, but I do think giving her a bit more depth might have helped the film.

I didn't know asking questions during a briefing was considered a temper tantrum. I must have had multiple temper tantrums at Commander's calls, then. And whenever I was in school too, now that I think about it. Poe should have learned to telepathically know what she wanted immediately, instead of asking her questions. I mean, having a temper tantrum.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'd not call it pettiness, exactly. But perhaps "short-tempered"? Or "dismissive"? She does seem very dismissive towards Poe, not only in her negative opinion of him and her refusing to appease his concerns (where I think she was somewhat justified), but in not taking him seriously as a threat despite his throwing a tantrum on the bridge until he literally pulled a gun on her.

If I had to give her a single major flaw, I'd say "complacency" might fit best. I just don't think it has a clear basis/motivation like Leia's fear of loss or Rey's family insecurity. Its perhaps inevitable that a new character will be less developed than a long-standing character, but I do think giving her a bit more depth might have helped the film.

I didn't know asking questions during a briefing was considered a temper tantrum. I must have had multiple temper tantrums at Commander's calls, then. And whenever I was in school too, now that I think about it. Poe should have learned to telepathically know what she wanted immediately, instead of asking her questions. I mean, having a temper tantrum.

Please.

I was referring to when he finds out (partially) about the plan with the transports and starts ranting that she's a traitor in the middle of the bridge. Remember? She still doesn't brig him after that. Which tells me that she doesn't take him seriously as a threat any more than she takes him seriously as an officer.

[FaxModem1]

I'd not call it pettiness, exactly. But perhaps "short-tempered"? Or "dismissive"? She does seem very dismissive towards Poe, not only in her negative opinion of him and her refusing to appease his concerns (where I think she was somewhat justified), but in not taking him seriously as a threat despite his throwing a tantrum on the bridge until he literally pulled a gun on her.

If I had to give her a single major flaw, I'd say "complacency" might fit best. I just don't think it has a clear basis/motivation like Leia's fear of loss or Rey's family insecurity. Its perhaps inevitable that a new character will be less developed than a long-standing character, but I do think giving her a bit more depth might have helped the film.

I didn't know asking questions during a briefing was considered a temper tantrum. I must have had multiple temper tantrums at Commander's calls, then. And whenever I was in school too, now that I think about it. Poe should have learned to telepathically know what she wanted immediately, instead of asking her questions. I mean, having a temper tantrum.

Please.

I was referring to when he finds out (partially) about the plan with the transports and starts ranting that she's a traitor in the middle of the bridge. Remember? She still doesn't brig him after that. Which tells me that she doesn't take him seriously as a threat any more than she takes him seriously as an officer.

Ah, I thought you meant the initial encounter, when she had just assumed leadership and pettily dismissed him right out the gate. Not the time where it had been 12 hours later and was still giving the same response.

[Kojiro]

I'll have to check that scene once I get the DVD.

Let me assure you they're docked. There's even a line of confirmation that the evacuation is complete.

See, this all would work fine if the bombers didn't have hyper drives.

For what it's worth, they're seven god damn stories tall- they don't fit in the Raddus hangar anyway.

So this basically leaves us with two options: "The transports hadn't had time to dock" (pure speculation I admit), or "Leia froze up".

I actually think it's more 'the film wants to make Poe responsible' but it does this by removing Leia's agency. She does nothing when she clearly could. It's like the cloaked transports- Poe doesn't know about the cloaks (otherwise he'd and the audience would figure out the plan) so he can't possibly blab about them. But it again wants Poe on the hook so he 'blabs' without actually knowing the critical info (that a 'decloaking scan' was required). The FO can detect shuttles just fine.

It's a running theme. Poe does something he shouldn't. Hell even the base defense at the end could be considered a frivolous waste of life. They had no chance against larger, up armoured AT-ATs or against the TIEs in the air. Going out there served zero purpose- it did not slow down the mini DS gun from firing in any way. The only 'use' it served was a terrible battle scene and cutting the resistance down to a Falcon worth. Even Poe's idea to look for how Luke got in is 'wrong'. No such way out exists when he concludes it must, it only appears when Rey makes it so. Poor Poe can't catch a break.

[The Romulan Republic]

I didn't know asking questions during a briefing was considered a temper tantrum. I must have had multiple temper tantrums at Commander's calls, then. And whenever I was in school too, now that I think about it. Poe should have learned to telepathically know what she wanted immediately, instead of asking her questions. I mean, having a temper tantrum.

Please.

I was referring to when he finds out (partially) about the plan with the transports and starts ranting that she's a traitor in the middle of the bridge. Remember? She still doesn't brig him after that. Which tells me that she doesn't take him seriously as a threat any more than she takes him seriously as an officer.

Ah, I thought you meant the initial encounter, when she had just assumed leadership and pettily dismissed him right out the gate. Not the time where it had been 12 hours later and was still giving the same response.

Again, I wouldn't call her dismissing Poe's complaints "petty", because she had good reason to do so based on his a) fuck-up and b) subsequent insubordination. Making a snide comment about him being a "flyboy"... maybe that's petty (its certainly unnecessarily provocative), but its a pretty minor slip considering the pressure she would have been under at the time, and the fact that her very first interaction with this officer who she knows was just demoted for insubordination that got a bunch of people killed, is him coming up to her and questioning her leadership.

I mean, is this really where we're at? Holdo sucks because she said something slightly mean to a subordinate officer under extremely trying circumstances? Because frankly, I think that's a rather petty criticism.

As to the other point, the implication that she was at fault for not filling in Poe on her plans... we've been over this again and again, and other than the question of how high in the chain of command Poe was, I cannot recall hearing anyone offer a compelling reason for why Poe personally (not other members of the crew, Poe) was entitled to an explanation from Holdo. "He's a protagonist" doesn't cut it. "Holdo's plan sucked" doesn't either. Nor does "he blew up Starkiller Base", unless you think one heroic act gives someone life long carte blanche regardless of their subsequent actions.

And I do think that this common insistence that Poe is entitled to an explanation from Holdo, that she is obligated to justify herself to him, fuels the impression some people have that a lot of the hostility towards Holdo is due to gender bias. To be clear: I'm not saying that anyone hear is motivated by sexism, or that all criticism of Holdo or TLJ is sexist, but look at this from someone else's perspective, someone who doesn't think that Holdo is an awful character. Because you have a higher-ranked female authority figure, who's judgement is repeatedly called into question by a hothead young male character, initially with very little basis (literally, she gives one short, vaguely inspirational speech, and Poe basically responds with "she's not what I expected, I'm going to go question her about her battle plans", then when he isn't satisfied with her answer, responds with "I'm going to conduct a covert op behind her back). And it is then insisted that she owes him an explanation, that she has to justify her authority to him, for... reasons. The only reason their initial encounter might not immediately come off as just Poe being sexist is that he also shows respect to Leia as a leader.

I would like to just forget about everything else for a moment, all the other arguments for and against Holdo's merits as an officer in-universe, and as a character out-of-universe, and just get a clear answer to this question:

Why is Holdo at fault for not explaining her plan immediately to Poe?

Because the way I see it, if Poe occupied a place in the chain of command where he was likely to assume command if something happened to Holdo, then filling him in is reasonable. Otherwise, given the circumstances as depicted on-screen, it isn't.

As to her giving him the same response 12 hours later... what exactly happened in those 12 hours that would give her any reason to think better of Poe? Why is it entirely on Holdo to earn Poe's respect, and not on him to earn her's?

Out-of-universe, maybe, its on Holdo to earn the audience's respect because Poe is an established character already and Holdo isn't. But in-universe, there's no reason why she bears all the burden for trying to bridge that gap between them. Because when, ever, in the film does Poe interact with Holdo in a way that would dispose her to view him as anything but an insubordinate troublemaker with a sense of entitlement?

Let me assure you they're docked. There's even a line of confirmation that the evacuation is complete.

I'll take your word for it.

For what it's worth, they're seven god damn stories tall- they don't fit in the Raddus hangar anyway.

Hadn't measured them against the Raddus's hanger. In that case, and taking into account the previous point, we're basically left with "Leia froze up", or, more charitably "Leia decided not to abandon the squadrons, even though her presence could not realistically help them in any way."

So this basically leaves us with two options: "The transports hadn't had time to dock" (pure speculation I admit), or "Leia froze up".

I actually think it's more 'the film wants to make Poe responsible' but it does this by removing Leia's agency.

That's an interesting criticism, and its true that a close analysis of the scene makes Leia seem somewhat ineffective and passive. Mind you, I think this is something not many people would pick up on if new Star Wars films didn't have legions of fans going over them with a fine-tooth-comb, but it is a legitimate criticism of how the scene is constructed. Leia's actions (or rather inaction) here are not sufficiently justified.

She does nothing when she clearly could. It's like the cloaked transports- Poe doesn't know about the cloaks (otherwise he'd and the audience would figure out the plan) so he can't possibly blab about them. But it again wants Poe on the hook so he 'blabs' without actually knowing the critical info (that a 'decloaking scan' was required). The FO can detect shuttles just fine.

I do not think the intent of the film was to put all the blame for the exposure of the transports on Poe (I argued that he is partially indirectly responsible for running a covert op behind Holdo's back, I believe, but that's my own interpretation, not necessarily the one intended by the filmmakers). The film emphasized DJ's treachery as the reason Holdo's plan failed.

Really, there's lots of blame to go around on this one. Poe, Finn, and Rose all share blame for conducting a poorly-prepared, risky covert mission behind their commanding officer's back. Poe gets some extra blame for making the initial call not to tell Holdo. Finn and Rose arguably get some for being overly trusting of DJ, and DJ gets the bulk for being a treacherous amoral dick trying to "both sides" the Resistance and the Space Neo-Nazis. And then there's just plain bad luck (DJ happening to overhear Poe's call to Rose and Finn).

It's a running theme. Poe does something he shouldn't. Hell even the base defense at the end could be considered a frivolous waste of life. They had no chance against larger, up armoured AT-ATs or against the TIEs in the air. Going out there served zero purpose- it did not slow down the mini DS gun from firing in any way. The only 'use' it served was a terrible battle scene and cutting the resistance down to a Falcon worth. Even Poe's idea to look for how Luke got in is 'wrong'. No such way out exists when he concludes it must, it only appears when Rey makes it so. Poor Poe can't catch a break.

I think you're overstating your case here. The film never portrays Poe as at fault for attempting to defend the base- in fact it sets up the moment where we see that he's learned from his prior mistakes (when he calls off the attack upon realizing that it is unlikely to succeed). Nor was it really his call, since Leia was back in command at that point and okayed the plan.

Nor can we fault him for seeing exactly what Luke probably wanted him to think (and thus finding the way out).

[Kojiro]

Hadn't measured them against the Raddus's hanger.

The actual built set, if you dig up a pic, is 3, perhaps generously 4 stories tall. There's no way it clears seven. The only mention I can find of the bombers docking is with the Ninka.

Mind you, I think this is something not many people would pick up on if new Star Wars films didn't have legions of fans going over them with a fine-tooth-comb, but it is a legitimate criticism of how the scene is constructed.

I think honestly it all started when peoples complaints- legitimate or not because they were often grouped- were dismissed. And not only dismissed, but often with an added sting of 'you don't like it because you're a bad person' via implicit or direct accusations of things like sexism or fanboyism. Such things prompt people who weren't happy to find other flaws that can't be shut down with the same criticisms.

At this point though there are people (not like yourself who admits the film isn't perfect) who will defend or excuse anything and everything perpetuating the cycle. They won't admit there's anything wrong with the film at all, even though we all know no film is perfect. So the cycle goes on with ever increasing scrutiny because every complaint is ignored.

I do not think the intent of the film was to put all the blame for the exposure of the transports on Poe (I argued that he is partially indirectly responsible for running a covert op behind Holdo's back, I believe, but that's my own interpretation, not necessarily the one intended by the filmmakers). The film emphasized DJ's treachery as the reason Holdo's plan failed.

I can assure you I have had plenty of people complain it's Poe's fault. It starts with 'How did DJ know about the transports' and follows the progression to 'Because Poe told Finn/Rose and he overheard'. Much like how many people believe Luke left a map to find him (not at all discouraged by leaving behind his buddy R2 with the map!) but it's not actually stated- just really heavily implied.

I think you're overstating your case here. The film never portrays Poe as at fault for attempting to defend the base- in fact it sets up the moment where we see that he's learned from his prior mistakes (when he calls off the attack upon realizing that it is unlikely to succeed). Nor was it really his call, since Leia was back in command at that point and okayed the plan.

Well is it Poe's attempt? Or is Leia still in command here? He makes the call to pull back, quite true, but Leia has to have signed off on them going out there. If losing 8 bombers was a blow when they had 500 people, losing 11 speeders (plus whoever died in the trenches) is a right kick in the nuts when you've only got 60 or so. Especially in light of doing absolutely nothing.

Nor can we fault him for seeing exactly what Luke probably wanted him to think (and thus finding the way out).

Oh no, it's quite reasonable to assume Luke got in somehow (though to be fair, it is a space wizard, so it may not be best to assume it's a way anyone can access). This is more about subversion though- Luke doesn't speak, doesn't tell them he's a projection- he lets them assume he's real (begging the question of why Leia dumped the dice or why he bothered to bring them) all so the less observant audience members will assume he's real. I guess you can make an argument that Luke knew Rey would be fine and able to park the Falcon in the open and go rock lifting so he let Poe assume there was an exit because there would be but that's awfully specific for a Force vision. Without SoD in effect it really just feels like the director wanted them trapped until he didn't while keeping his subversion intact.

[tezunegari]

Again, I wouldn't call her dismissing Poe's complaints "petty", because she had good reason to do so based on his a) fuck-up and b) subsequent insubordination.

His "fuckup" removed a powerful asset of the First Order at the cost of 8 bombers and a few fighters.

Without an incompetent in command of the FO fleet the losses for taking down a Siege dreadnought are implied to be far higher, maybe even measured in fleets.

The remaining Defense fleets of the Republic Remnant now don't have to worry about the Fulminatrix.

Making a snide comment about him being a "flyboy"... maybe that's petty (its certainly unnecessarily provocative), but its a pretty minor slip considering the pressure she would have been under at the time, and the fact that her very first interaction with this officer who she knows was just demoted for insubordination that got a bunch of people killed, is him coming up to her and questioning her leadership.

I mean, is this really where we're at? Holdo sucks because she said something slightly mean to a subordinate officer under extremely trying circumstances? Because frankly, I think that's a rather petty criticism.

Uh, have we watched the same movie? He never questions her leadership until later in the movie; AFTER the Medical frigate and the Ninka have been destroyed and they are down to six hours of fuel.

Poes first interaction with her starts with him summarizing the situation and asking for orders.
Holdo then pulls her flyboy speech.

He is professional, she isn't.

00:37:13
Poe: "Vice-Admiral? Commander Dameron. With our current fuel consumption, there is a very limited amount of time tbat we can stay out of range of those Star Destroyers. "

Holdo: "Very kind of you to make me aware." Holdo to Commander D'Acy, apparently ignoring Poe: "Let's get me those fuel projections"

Poe: "And we need to shake them before we can find a new base, so, what's our plan?"

Holdo: "Our plan, Captain?" *walks away from him* "Not Commander, right? Wasn't that Leia's last official act to demote you for your dreadnought plan where we lost our entire bomber fleet?"

Poe: "Captain." "Commander." "You can call me whatever you like." *she grins/smirks at him* "I just wanna know what's going on."

Holdo: "Of course you do. I understand. I've dealt with plenty of trigger-happy flyboys like you." "You're impulsive. Dangerous." "And the last thing we need right now. So stick to your post and follow my orders." *Holdo then leaves*

And yet we are never shown how Poe receives any orders!
And all the time between Poes "call me whatever you like" and her "And the last thing we need right now" Holdo had a smirk and demeanor of someone flirting, especially during the 'impulse/dangerous' part. (The german voice actress doens't help there, her voice acting even increases the 'I want to jump your bones right now' vibe for me)

[Patroklos]

Makes me wonder how he got his position, considering his relative youth compared to the ages of the rest of the First Order. Family is the reason he's accepted and has such a high rank in the EU, correct?

Someone like that would only get through via nepotism or party loyalty, but there has to be a limit on how much that can get you before your record puts you in a place where you can't harm anything, as opposed to leading Snoke's military.

This has always been the problem with the nepotism excuse for mustache twirlers in SW. At the very top, in the movies anyway, there are always non nonsense competent uber-villians who operate as space wizards and have no need to placate anyone by accepting incompetents in their midst. Maybe as you go down the chain the mid level villains might need some connections but at the level Hux occupies I can't think of any reason for Snoke to need to accept that level of risk and we are certainly never provided any.

This is all highlighted by the fact that as you and others said, the Vaders and Snokes of the universe have zero problem murdering or otherwise torturing and humiliating these people so they can't be placating super important parents or other family connections back in the FO heartland.

The two situations, my commanders are incompetent so I can kill them at will/I am beholden to powerful forces that require me to have incompenetet commanders, don't mix. Oil and water.

Well, as witnessed, and as discussed here, she judges books by their covers(her first statement to Poe is how he's an idiotic flyboy) and gets into a feud with a subordinate officer within five minutes of meeting him while in a crisis, in front of the rest of the Resistance leadership. So I guess we could argue that her falling into the theme is her pettiness affecting her actions and consideration of the crew.

This comment by Holdo essentially cements that she is wholly incompetent in Rebel military terms. The primary fighting power of the Rebels and overwhelming source of their success in the past all the way to the first DS and before is starfighters. Are we really going to take seriously a Rebel leader that openly and publically disparages pilots generally? Its not like starfighters are new to the setting, giving us a WWII gun club/figher jock dynamic. Nor is it the case that starfighters haven't recently been the primary source of their most recent combat successes given Star Killer base and the Dreadnaught. Her saying that is as stupid as an Admiral today being anti cruise missile.

[tezunegari]

Uh, have we watched the same movie? He never questions her leadership until later in the movie; AFTER the Medical frigate and the Ninka have been destroyed and they are down to six hours of fuel.

A correction:

The quoted scene was the first public incident.

His first time questioning Holdos leadership is during the scenes where Finn and Rose tell him about the tracker and they hatch their plan.
He agrees with C3POs opppinion that Holdo will not go with the plan.

[Patroklos]

Why is Holdo at fault for not explaining her plan immediately to Poe?


Because the way I see it, if Poe occupied a place in the chain of command where he was likely to assume command if something happened to Holdo, then filling him in is reasonable. Otherwise, given the circumstances as depicted on-screen, it isn't.

I feel this has been answered in spades, but as a former real world DH on US Navy DDGs and on several senior staffs (and currently), there was never a time where anything serious was going on where I was not 100% informed as to the commander's intent and plans pertinent to the present situation. Usually, the entire crew was. Unless there was some sensitive information involved the likely way this took place was an all hands call or a speech over the 1MC, and even then whatever could be shared was.

The simple fact is command is a matter of trust up and down the chain of command. If you want me to die for you had better give be a good reason to feel its for a reason. And in the case of officers, which Poe is, if you want me to put my credibility on the line with my subordinates I have to know for what and why. Its one thing for a senior who is one or two levels above you to tell you they can't give you all the details and to trust their lives to your word because you have hopefully built a more personal senior/subordinate bond, while a remote and unknowable commander back in HQ or sequestered in the bridge has a more tenuous connection. Sure, there is the hard control of orders and hierarchy, but that only gets you so far in extreme situations, which is why an organization that just perpetually leans on collar brass insignia and threats of punishment vice building and maintaining human connections fails in the crunch.

In the case of Holdo, who is essentially a stranger to everyone on Raddus and has no connection with anyone except the few who came over with her from hers ship, her primary purpose should be to coopt the established in crowd leaders from the Raddus in order to borrow their credibility. She does the opposite from the get go.

In the real world Poe would know. And while I have said over and over again a mole or inside threat would have been a great mechanic for the claustrophobic and hopeless situation within the Raddus and MAYBE been played to justify not telling him, the movie never provided this so its no excuse. Poe would have known in the real world. Everyone would have known.

As to her giving him the same response 12 hours later... what exactly happened in those 12 hours that would give her any reason to think better of Poe? Why is it entirely on Holdo to earn Poe's respect, and not on him to earn her's?

That's not the issue. The issue is that in those twelve hours everyone not in on Holdo's plan, so the majority of those present on Raddus, just watched two of their ships get destroyed by the FO after running out of fuel with the sure knowledge they will be next shortly and the only think Holdo has told them is to have hope. She told those crews the same "hope" story too...

This is analogus to having three dudes under descending swinging pendulum blades of different lengths. Your lawyer tells all three of you "I don't know how to get you out of this dungeon, but trust me I am going to make it happen! Somehow..." After three hours you watch your buddy Ninka on your right gets sliced in half, his entrails spilling onto the floor. Eight hours in your stare helplessly while your brother Medfrig gets noisily eviscerated on your left, mouthing voiceless pleas to you as the light dies in his eyes. You can see the clock, and you know what you just witnessed will happen to you in exactly four more hours, but when you scream out your lawyer just says "trust me!," meanwhile the pendulum swings ever so closer to your belly. You see what you think is a key to your shackles juuuuuuuuust in reach on the floor....

This is what Holdo did to those she didn't tell. This is what those she didn't tell had to endure. She was literally torturing them for no good reason.

Out-of-universe, maybe, its on Holdo to earn the audience's respect because Poe is an established character already and Holdo isn't. But in-universe, there's no reason why she bears all the burden for trying to bridge that gap between them. Because when, ever, in the film does Poe interact with Holdo in a way that would dispose her to view him as anything but an insubordinate troublemaker with a sense of entitlement?

You have got this entirely backwards. It is her job, as a superior, to inspire confidence and provide guidance and security to her subordinates, not the other way around. Dealing with frightened, angry, disillusioned and frustrated subordinates is the primary job of a senior leader. Its the #1 thing they are there to do, to inspire people to be better and accomplish more than they think they can. To be blunt, anyone can come up with plans, and commanders rarely do that themselves. They are there to execute, through the inspiration and management of people.

[PhoenixKnig]

Thank you for your service Patroklos

[FaxModem1]

Please.

I was referring to when he finds out (partially) about the plan with the transports and starts ranting that she's a traitor in the middle of the bridge. Remember? She still doesn't brig him after that. Which tells me that she doesn't take him seriously as a threat any more than she takes him seriously as an officer.

Ah, I thought you meant the initial encounter, when she had just assumed leadership and pettily dismissed him right out the gate. Not the time where it had been 12 hours later and was still giving the same response.

Again, I wouldn't call her dismissing Poe's complaints "petty", because she had good reason to do so based on his a) fuck-up and b) subsequent insubordination. Making a snide comment about him being a "flyboy"... maybe that's petty (its certainly unnecessarily provocative), but its a pretty minor slip considering the pressure she would have been under at the time, and the fact that her very first interaction with this officer who she knows was just demoted for insubordination that got a bunch of people killed, is him coming up to her and questioning her leadership.

I mean, is this really where we're at? Holdo sucks because she said something slightly mean to a subordinate officer under extremely trying circumstances? Because frankly, I think that's a rather petty criticism.

As to the other point, the implication that she was at fault for not filling in Poe on her plans... we've been over this again and again, and other than the question of how high in the chain of command Poe was, I cannot recall hearing anyone offer a compelling reason for why Poe personally (not other members of the crew, Poe) was entitled to an explanation from Holdo. "He's a protagonist" doesn't cut it. "Holdo's plan sucked" doesn't either. Nor does "he blew up Starkiller Base", unless you think one heroic act gives someone life long carte blanche regardless of their subsequent actions.

And I do think that this common insistence that Poe is entitled to an explanation from Holdo, that she is obligated to justify herself to him, fuels the impression some people have that a lot of the hostility towards Holdo is due to gender bias. To be clear: I'm not saying that anyone hear is motivated by sexism, or that all criticism of Holdo or TLJ is sexist, but look at this from someone else's perspective, someone who doesn't think that Holdo is an awful character. Because you have a higher-ranked female authority figure, who's judgement is repeatedly called into question by a hothead young male character, initially with very little basis (literally, she gives one short, vaguely inspirational speech, and Poe basically responds with "she's not what I expected, I'm going to go question her about her battle plans", then when he isn't satisfied with her answer, responds with "I'm going to conduct a covert op behind her back). And it is then insisted that she owes him an explanation, that she has to justify her authority to him, for... reasons. The only reason their initial encounter might not immediately come off as just Poe being sexist is that he also shows respect to Leia as a leader.

I would like to just forget about everything else for a moment, all the other arguments for and against Holdo's merits as an officer in-universe, and as a character out-of-universe, and just get a clear answer to this question:

Why is Holdo at fault for not explaining her plan immediately to Poe?

Because the way I see it, if Poe occupied a place in the chain of command where he was likely to assume command if something happened to Holdo, then filling him in is reasonable. Otherwise, given the circumstances as depicted on-screen, it isn't.

As to her giving him the same response 12 hours later... what exactly happened in those 12 hours that would give her any reason to think better of Poe? Why is it entirely on Holdo to earn Poe's respect, and not on him to earn her's?

Out-of-universe, maybe, its on Holdo to earn the audience's respect because Poe is an established character already and Holdo isn't. But in-universe, there's no reason why she bears all the burden for trying to bridge that gap between them. Because when, ever, in the film does Poe interact with Holdo in a way that would dispose her to view him as anything but an insubordinate troublemaker with a sense of entitlement?

Patroklos handled this well, so I'll only add that if Holdo was given a 30 second line about worrying about spies, saboteurs, listening devices, etc, she would come off as having better reasons for her level of secrecy.

And add that another reason to explain what's going on is to make better subordinates, as they'll understand your line of thinking, and help you achieve your goals. Or point out areas you haven't thought of. Or if you have thought of them, explain why their ideas won't work.

In the rewrite in my head, I'd have gone more for this:

Imagine if the film had a mentor and apprentice relationship between Holdo and Poe, with her guiding him to being a better leader, which is what we get between Leia and Poe to an extent. Contrast this with Rey's tutelage under Luke, to show where Luke has given up, Leia and Holding are keeping the fight going. Have Poe making suggestions, Holdo showing him the methods to her madness, and revealing that she's eccentric but brilliant. Hence the cocktail dress in a room full of uniforms. A seemingly odd person who shouldn't be judged by her appearance. A Star Wars style Dumbledore. This way, she leads the flotilla through until the very end, keeping the fleet alive through smarts and her wits. Until, at the end, when all she's out of schemes, we can have a moment like this:

Holdo: One last trick to try, never been done before. Even I knew it was crazy. Hopefully it'll buy everyone the time they need.
Poe: Admiral, what are you doing?
Holdo: Gotta get the engines perfect. There.
Poe: Admiral?
Holdo: Pilot flyboy like you should appreciate this. Poe, it was fun.
Poe: Holdo?
(Cue hyperspace ramming sequence)

It makes Holdo seem easier to empathize with the audience, gives Poe a road to go on regarding his development as a Resistance leader, and explains why people don't do something like the Holdo manuever all the time. While also potentially making a Star Wars moment that will be repeated forever.

Ah well, that's just my spitballing.

[ray245]

That would require Rian Johnson to question his whole plot set-up.

[The Romulan Republic]

I feel this has been answered in spades, but as a former real world DH on US Navy DDGs and on several senior staffs (and currently), there was never a time where anything serious was going on where I was not 100% informed as to the commander's intent and plans pertinent to the present situation. Usually, the entire crew was. Unless there was some sensitive information involved the likely way this took place was an all hands call or a speech over the 1MC, and even then whatever could be shared was.

The simple fact is command is a matter of trust up and down the chain of command. If you want me to die for you had better give be a good reason to feel its for a reason. And in the case of officers, which Poe is, if you want me to put my credibility on the line with my subordinates I have to know for what and why. Its one thing for a senior who is one or two levels above you to tell you they can't give you all the details and to trust their lives to your word because you have hopefully built a more personal senior/subordinate bond, while a remote and unknowable commander back in HQ or sequestered in the bridge has a more tenuous connection. Sure, there is the hard control of orders and hierarchy, but that only gets you so far in extreme situations, which is why an organization that just perpetually leans on collar brass insignia and threats of punishment vice building and maintaining human connections fails in the crunch.

In the case of Holdo, who is essentially a stranger to everyone on Raddus and has no connection with anyone except the few who came over with her from hers ship, her primary purpose should be to coopt the established in crowd leaders from the Raddus in order to borrow their credibility. She does the opposite from the get go.

Thank you for clarifying this, and for your service.

It is possible, of course, that the Resistance operates on different principles and procedures than the real-life US Navy, but your explanation as to the reasoning for such procedures makes sense.

In the real world Poe would know. And while I have said over and over again a mole or inside threat would have been a great mechanic for the claustrophobic and hopeless situation within the Raddus and MAYBE been played to justify not telling him, the movie never provided this so its no excuse. Poe would have known in the real world. Everyone would have known.

I would contend that while the film does not explicitly state that they fear a mole, it is a logical inference, and a justification in-universe for Holdo's actions.

That said, out-of-universe, it should absolutely have been stated in the film, as I've said before.

That's not the issue. The issue is that in those twelve hours everyone not in on Holdo's plan, so the majority of those present on Raddus, just watched two of their ships get destroyed by the FO after running out of fuel with the sure knowledge they will be next shortly and the only think Holdo has told them is to have hope. She told those crews the same "hope" story too...

This is analogus to having three dudes under descending swinging pendulum blades of different lengths. Your lawyer tells all three of you "I don't know how to get you out of this dungeon, but trust me I am going to make it happen! Somehow..." After three hours you watch your buddy Ninka on your right gets sliced in half, his entrails spilling onto the floor. Eight hours in your stare helplessly while your brother Medfrig gets noisily eviscerated on your left, mouthing voiceless pleas to you as the light dies in his eyes. You can see the clock, and you know what you just witnessed will happen to you in exactly four more hours, but when you scream out your lawyer just says "trust me!," meanwhile the pendulum swings ever so closer to your belly. You see what you think is a key to your shackles juuuuuuuuust in reach on the floor....

This is what Holdo did to those she didn't tell. This is what those she didn't tell had to endure. She was literally torturing them for no good reason.

As above, I'd say that there was a good argument for keeping that information quiet- but one that the film failed to articulate.

I'd actually draw a comparison to the Janeway/Caretaker situation from Voyager (another case where a female commander received a lot of hostility from the audience). In that case, Janeway made a decision (the destruction of the Array) which caused great hardship for her crew. I would contend that there were excellent reasons to destroy the Array that the episode could easily have provided- but the writers failed to articulate them clearly to the audience.

You have got this entirely backwards. It is her job, as a superior, to inspire confidence and provide guidance and security to her subordinates, not the other way around.

Its her job to inspire confidence, yes. But I'd presume that it is also Poe's job not to challenge her authority or disobey orders unless necessary.

Dealing with frightened, angry, disillusioned and frustrated subordinates is the primary job of a senior leader. Its the #1 thing they are there to do, to inspire people to be better and accomplish more than they think they can. To be blunt, anyone can come up with plans, and commanders rarely do that themselves. They are there to execute, through the inspiration and management of people.

Fair enough.

I'm not saying anyone (Holdo or Poe) handled the situation ideally. I'm just saying that there are reasons for that given the situation (both explicite and implied) other than "Holdo is evil" or "Holdo is stupid." And that Poe bears some of the blame.

Patroklos handled this well, so I'll only add that if Holdo was given a 30 second line about worrying about spies, saboteurs, listening devices, etc, she would come off as having better reasons for her level of secrecy.

Agreed.

And add that another reason to explain what's going on is to make better subordinates, as they'll understand your line of thinking, and help you achieve your goals. Or point out areas you haven't thought of. Or if you have thought of them, explain why their ideas won't work.

In the rewrite in my head, I'd have gone more for this:

Imagine if the film had a mentor and apprentice relationship between Holdo and Poe, with her guiding him to being a better leader, which is what we get between Leia and Poe to an extent. Contrast this with Rey's tutelage under Luke, to show where Luke has given up, Leia and Holding are keeping the fight going. Have Poe making suggestions, Holdo showing him the methods to her madness, and revealing that she's eccentric but brilliant. Hence the cocktail dress in a room full of uniforms. A seemingly odd person who shouldn't be judged by her appearance. A Star Wars style Dumbledore. This way, she leads the flotilla through until the very end, keeping the fleet alive through smarts and her wits. Until, at the end, when all she's out of schemes, we can have a moment like this:

Holdo: One last trick to try, never been done before. Even I knew it was crazy. Hopefully it'll buy everyone the time they need.
Poe: Admiral, what are you doing?
Holdo: Gotta get the engines perfect. There.
Poe: Admiral?
Holdo: Pilot flyboy like you should appreciate this. Poe, it was fun.
Poe: Holdo?
(Cue hyperspace ramming sequence)

It makes Holdo seem easier to empathize with the audience, gives Poe a road to go on regarding his development as a Resistance leader, and explains why people don't do something like the Holdo manuever all the time. While also potentially making a Star Wars moment that will be repeated forever.

Ah well, that's just my spitballing.

As you noted, that's kind of the relationship Poe has with Leia, but giving him that relationship with Holdo would have been arguably redundant, and would have required a major re-write, as ray noted.

I think the problem is two-fold: one, the need for secrecy is never clearly stated. It makes sense as a justification after the fact, but it should have been stated in the film. It would have cleared up a number of plot issues that have been raised in this thread, while still leaving enough to make the audience think Poe was right about Holdo.

Secondly, we don't really get a chance in the film to find out much about Holdo, or see things from her perspective. So we just get half a film of Poe (as previously noted in this thread, a character the audience has already gotten to know and presumably identify with) saying she sucks, followed by a twist. Holdo's goodbye to Leia and her final sacrifice help to make her more sympathetic and give her more depth, but it would have probably helped the audience to sympathize with her if we'd found out a bit more about her.

I might have played up the idea that it was some of Holdo's people that Poe's stunt at the start got killed- given her a stronger personal reason to dislike and distrust him. Hell, maybe even have Holdo blame Poe for Leia being incapacitated, since his stunt wiped out their fighter cover and exposed the Raddus to Kylo's fighter attack. Give her more of a reason for a personal animosity towards Poe. The latter would tie it into her other main relationship in the film (her friendship with Leia), and Leia's recovery could then provide a stronger reason for her to reevaluate her opinion of Poe.

His "fuckup" removed a powerful asset of the First Order at the cost of 8 bombers and a few fighters.

Without an incompetent in command of the FO fleet the losses for taking down a Siege dreadnought are implied to be far higher, maybe even measured in fleets.

The remaining Defense fleets of the Republic Remnant now don't have to worry about the Fulminatrix.

I've been over this before as well, but:

The point is not that the Resistance paid a heavier price than the FO in absolute terms in that engagement. They very clearly didn't.

The point is that directly engaging enemy capital ships when you don't have to is not the tactics of an insurgency- especially when you're so badly outnumbered to begin with. Even if the Resistance kills a dreadnought for the price of one or two fighter/bomber squadrons, the Resistance may well have suffered proportionately heavier losses, because they don't have reserves to call on to the extent that the FO does. That was their entire fighter and bomber force that Poe lead into that battle- force that they have no immediate means to replace. The loss of those forces meant fewer fighters/bombers to defend the fleet in the next engagement, leaving them more vulnerable to enemy attack, giving them fewer tactical options.

If they had been fighting a conventional war with roughly equivalent forces, Poe's attack on the dreadnought would probably have constituted a stunning success, Leia would likely have okayed it, and he likely would have got a meddle afterward.

For an insurgency- seeking out an open battle with the enemy's heaviest units when you don't have to fight one is idiocy. You think Leia of all people doesn't know about fighting as a guerilla?

Uh, have we watched the same movie? He never questions her leadership until later in the movie; AFTER the Medical frigate and the Ninka have been destroyed and they are down to six hours of fuel.

Poes first interaction with her starts with him summarizing the situation and asking for orders.
Holdo then pulls her flyboy speech.

He is professional, she isn't.

Its possible that I remembered Poe's actions in a more negative light. That said...

00:37:13
Poe: "Vice-Admiral? Commander Dameron. With our current fuel consumption, there is a very limited amount of time tbat we can stay out of range of those Star Destroyers. "

Holdo: "Very kind of you to make me aware." Holdo to Commander D'Acy, apparently ignoring Poe: "Let's get me those fuel projections"

Poe: "And we need to shake them before we can find a new base, so, what's our plan?"

Holdo: "Our plan, Captain?" *walks away from him* "Not Commander, right? Wasn't that Leia's last official act to demote you for your dreadnought plan where we lost our entire bomber fleet?"

Poe: "Captain." "Commander." "You can call me whatever you like." *she grins/smirks at him* "I just wanna know what's going on."

Holdo: "Of course you do. I understand. I've dealt with plenty of trigger-happy flyboys like you." "You're impulsive. Dangerous." "And the last thing we need right now. So stick to your post and follow my orders." *Holdo then leaves*

I will note that while Poe is not openly insulting or hostile (at least not in the words he uses- I'm not sure about things like expression and tone of voice, since you only referred to Holdo's tone or expression when it makes her seem more offensive or unprofessional), that text you quoted does have him interrupting her while she's talking to another officer about the very problem he's asking her about. I will also note that he falsely states his rank to her as "commander" rather than captain (which she corrects).

Both Poe and Holdo make mistakes, certainly. But the Holdo bashers insist that Poe is faultless, and that everything is Holdo's fault. This is bias.

And yet we are never shown how Poe receives any orders!
And all the time between Poes "call me whatever you like" and her "And the last thing we need right now" Holdo had a smirk and demeanor of someone flirting, especially during the 'impulse/dangerous' part. (The german voice actress doens't help there, her voice acting even increases the 'I want to jump your bones right now' vibe for me)

I never got the impression that Holdo was "flirting" as far as I can recall, and "demeanor of someone flirting" seems pretty subjective, anyway. And if you're inserting that subtext as a way of saying "Oh, she was unprofessional toward Poe because she secretly wanted to fuck him", and your basis for that is "I think she sounds sexy"...

Well, let's just say that I'm trying really hard not to jump to the conclusion that the Holdo bashers are sexist, but you ain't making it easy. Dismissing the professionalism/competency of a female authority figure because you think they're sexy is kind of bog-standard sexism.

Also, what "voice actor"- pretty sure it was the same actor playing Holdo's body and voice.

A correction:

The quoted scene was the first public incident.

His first time questioning Holdos leadership is during the scenes where Finn and Rose tell him about the tracker and they hatch their plan.
He agrees with C3POs opppinion that Holdo will not go with the plan.

So its all really C3PO's fault?

I was referring to right after Holdo's initial speech, when Poe says something like "She's not what I expected" and then goes up and asks her about her plan (when she responds by calling him "flyboy"). At least, that's what I recalled. It is possible my memory is in error, in which case disregard.

[The Romulan Republic]

Although, tezunegari's post has made me morbidly curious to know if there's Poe/Holdo slashfic.

Oh, who am kidding? Its the internet. Of course there is.

[Crazedwraith]

Well since slashfic means gay, (at least in my experience) then no. Erotica probably.

[The Romulan Republic]

The actual built set, if you dig up a pic, is 3, perhaps generously 4 stories tall. There's no way it clears seven. The only mention I can find of the bombers docking is with the Ninka.

Okay, thanks for the clarification.

I think honestly it all started when peoples complaints- legitimate or not because they were often grouped- were dismissed. And not only dismissed, but often with an added sting of 'you don't like it because you're a bad person' via implicit or direct accusations of things like sexism or fanboyism. Such things prompt people who weren't happy to find other flaws that can't be shut down with the same criticisms.

I could say the opposite, though- that a lot of the dismissals and accusations are because people feel that the film is being unfairly attacked.

I know I'm more defensive of TLJ, and Holdo, than I otherwise would be because I feel the need to overcompensate for what to me is a tidal wave of hostility and unjustified nitpickery.

But "who started it" is almost a moot point, at least as far as TLJ is concerned, because this goes back much further. The Star Wars fandom tearing itself apart goes back at least to the Prequels, and the political clashes over gender politics go back literally millennia.

At this point though there are people (not like yourself who admits the film isn't perfect) who will defend or excuse anything and everything perpetuating the cycle. They won't admit there's anything wrong with the film at all, even though we all know no film is perfect. So the cycle goes on with ever increasing scrutiny because every complaint is ignored.

I've yet to encounter more than maybe one or two people (and then only in passing) who refuse to acknowledge any flaws in TLJ. Far more often, I see it being attacked on minor or outright false points. But that might just be the boards/topics I post in.

My own view... well, I pretty much stand by what I said when I first saw the film: I understand why some people love it. And I understand why some people hate it.

Personally, I think its a good movie overall, with a few glaring weak points, but one which fits somewhat awkwardly with the rest of the franchise, and which by design is somewhat vulnerable to misinterpretation, and likely to provoke fan hostility. I do think that its reputation will probably improve somewhat with time (most Star Wars films' do).

My problem is with the overwhelmingly negative tone of certain parts of the fandom, which to me seems to be desperately looking for things to attack, for any of a number of reasons. And I tend to be skeptical in part because we saw the exact same thing happen with the Prequels. It seems like with every new Star Wars film or series, there is a vocal contingent screaming that its the worst thing ever (and no, I'm not saying that that's what you're doing), and I'm tired of it.

I can assure you I have had plenty of people complain it's Poe's fault. It starts with 'How did DJ know about the transports' and follows the progression to 'Because Poe told Finn/Rose and he overheard'. Much like how many people believe Luke left a map to find him (not at all discouraged by leaving behind his buddy R2 with the map!) but it's not actually stated- just really heavily implied.

I don't think those two situations are comparable. There really is no plausible or obvious interpretation of R2 having the map other than "Luke put it there"- even if this is somewhat at odds with his attitude in TLJ.

Poe being at fault for the exposure of the transports is more a question of personal interpretation- in the sense of how much of the blame you give to him. He definitely is partially responsible, indirectly- but so are several other people, and the far more obvious culprit is DJ.

I don't doubt that some people blame Poe for it- but I don't think that that the clear intent of the film, nor is putting most or all of the blame on Poe a logical inference from what we see on-screen.

Well is it Poe's attempt? Or is Leia still in command here? He makes the call to pull back, quite true, but Leia has to have signed off on them going out there.

As I said- Poe leads the speeders out, but Leia is back in action at that point and the highest-ranking officer, so the plan would have to have been approved/permitted by her.

If losing 8 bombers was a blow when they had 500 people, losing 11 speeders (plus whoever died in the trenches) is a right kick in the nuts when you've only got 60 or so. Especially in light of doing absolutely nothing.

Different tactical and strategic situations. The attack with the bombers didn't have to happen- they could have simply hypered out and preserved their forces for future engagements.

The battle at Crait was a situation where they had no alternative but to try to defend their position until help arrived, as they had no means to retreat.

Oh no, it's quite reasonable to assume Luke got in somehow (though to be fair, it is a space wizard, so it may not be best to assume it's a way anyone can access). This is more about subversion though- Luke doesn't speak, doesn't tell them he's a projection- he lets them assume he's real (begging the question of why Leia dumped the dice or why he bothered to bring them) all so the less observant audience members will assume he's real. I guess you can make an argument that Luke knew Rey would be fine and able to park the Falcon in the open and go rock lifting so he let Poe assume there was an exit because there would be but that's awfully specific for a Force vision. Without SoD in effect it really just feels like the director wanted them trapped until he didn't while keeping his subversion intact.

If Luke could see the environment of Crait in enough detail to pull off his illusion, its reasonable to assume that he could have seen the way out (and possibly foreseen Rey's actions). And his arrival does provide the hint to Poe to try that route- its not a huge leap that Luke intended the Resistance to draw that conclusion, especially since the whole point of his last stand was to buy time for them to escape.

The final Luke scene, incidentally, is the main reason why I will maintain that, even if you don't like what he did, claims that Rian Johnson is stupid, incompetent, put no thought into the movie, etc., are unjustified. There is a lot of subtle foreshadowing in that scene about Luke- subtle enough that it won't be noticed by most of the audience the first time around unless they know to look for it, but clear and consistent in hindsight. This is a twist/subversion done right. There is an attention to consistency and detail that are hallmarks of a competent director or writer (and of competency in general).

See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGxuP1KiZ6Y

[The Romulan Republic]

Well since slashfic means gay, (at least in my experience) then no. Erotica probably.

IIRC, it was originally used to refer to gay pairings in fanfic, but I've seen it applied to fanfic pairings in general.

Although, it truly wouldn't surprise me if someone had written a male Holdo/Poe or female Poe/Holdo story, either.

[tezunegari]

Also, what "voice actor"- pretty sure it was the same actor playing Holdo's body and voice.

(The GERMAN VOICE ACTRESS doens't help there, her voice acting even increases the 'I want to jump your bones right now' vibe for me)

THE GERMAN VOICE FOR VICE-ADMIRAL HOLDO...

I originally watched it in german. In Germany. In a german movie theater.
Holdo is voiced by Andrea Kathrin Loewig in the german version.

You are aware that most Hollywood movies are released in non-english speaking countries?
At least in Germany you have a dedicated voice actor for any Hollywood actor, hell there are dedicated voice actors for Bollywood and Asian movies.

Not everyone speaks english or likes to watch their entertainment in english over here in the civilized world.

[The Romulan Republic]

(The GERMAN VOICE ACTRESS doens't help there, her voice acting even increases the 'I want to jump your bones right now' vibe for me)

THE GERMAN VOICE FOR VICE-ADMIRAL HOLDO...

I originally watched it in german. In Germany. In a german movie theater.
Holdo is voiced by Andrea Kathrin Loewig in the german version.

You are aware that most Hollywood movies are released in non-english speaking countries?
At least in Germany you have a dedicated voice actor for any Hollywood actor, hell there are dedicated voice actors for Bollywood and Asian movies.[/quote]

My apologies for the mistaken assumption.

I stand by everything else I said, however.

Not everyone speaks english or likes to watch their entertainment in english over here in the civilized world.

I made a careless assumption. You deliberately engaged in nationalist bigotry in reply.

[Batman]

Also, what "voice actor"- pretty sure it was the same actor playing Holdo's body and voice.

The german voice actress doens't help there, her voice acting even increases the 'I want to jump your bones right now' vibe for me)

Notice the bolded. He may be talking about the dubbed version

[The Romulan Republic]

Also, what "voice actor"- pretty sure it was the same actor playing Holdo's body and voice.

The german voice actress doens't help there, her voice acting even increases the 'I want to jump your bones right now' vibe for me)

Notice the bolded. He may be talking about the dubbed version

See the last two posts. The error has been noted, and acknowledged.

[Batman]

My bad

[ray245]

Both Poe and Holdo make mistakes, certainly. But the Holdo bashers insist that Poe is faultless, and that everything is Holdo's fault. This is bias.

How many people in this thread is saying Poe is entirely faultless? It's unfair to make the assumption that posters in this thread shares the same view as some random poster on youtube.