Thoughts on a Republic fleet list

[Rhadamantus]

That sounds like a similar setup to what I was imagining.

Using a simple extrapolation, around 60 or 70 BBY, before the great buildup in the Navy, a typical Mid-Rim sector might have forces composed of

1 Cruiser (Meridian Class or something similar)
6 Destroyers (Fulgors, Vindicators and Kontos)
and 40 or 50 smaller ships. This fleet is of course minute compared to a comparable force, and I'm not sure what actual objective it can accomplish.

Imperial Sector Forces clearly seem to outgun everything else in the sector. Sure, there might be worlds they take time to break, but the ordinary setup is such that very few worlds can rebel against the Empire and last long. A sector force whose largest combatant is a kilometer long can't accomplish the same superiority. This may be by design, as worlds of the Republic might not desire a government that can bring them to heel. If they can't accomplish a hegemony of force in the sector, then, the main role they are left with is anti-piracy, which might tend to much smaller ships in great numbers. The Republic might have a great proliferation of very tiny ships, the 20 or 100kT corvettes and frigates, and then a broad gap until ISD size escorts for the Star Dreadnoughts and such that are their reserve. This gap might mean that the Republic Navy has no experience with broad scale warfare and no major combatants in the useful range that the ISD fills.

This would also explain their lackluster response to the Naboo blockade. Tiny corvettes wouldn't do anything against those Battleships, and the only other major ships they have have never seen conflict and are limited to the core.

[MKSheppard]

A sector force whose largest combatant is a kilometer long can't accomplish the same superiority. This may be by design, as worlds of the Republic might not desire a government that can bring them to heel.

Also, take into account the power of a single planetary ion cannon -- canonically, we've seen one in the hands of rebels that was capable of knocking around an Imperator class Star Destroyer and temporarily disabling it, even with the ship's shields up.

This would also explain their lackluster response to the Naboo blockade. Tiny corvettes wouldn't do anything against those Battleships, and the only other major ships they have have never seen conflict and are limited to the core.

Plus, the major ships may be centuries old and clearly outdated. In the Old Legends Canonicity, the Corporate Sector Authority operated 2 km long Dreadnaughts, which were pretty old and by the time of ANH, relegated to backwater anti-smuggling duties.

It's clear that SW technology isn't as frozen in stasis as some may believe; but it's not as fast moving as our 20th century was.

I think a good analogy might be that things are moving at the pace of the pre-industrial revolution -- the Age of Sail 1571–1820 would be a good analogy for how fast things move in SW. From when she was ordered to the the Battle of Trafalgar, it was 47 years for HMS Victory; and we're seeing that length of service slowly return again with ships approaching 40-50 years of service in the USN.

In Star Wars, with the major cause of ship destruction -- corrosion and constant non regular flexure of the frame from the waves -- not an issue, lives in centuries could easily be obtained, which would retard the pace of technological advancements.

[MKSheppard]

Random other ships from scaling off Imperial Star Destroyers:

Immobilizer-418 Cruiser (600m): 4.75e6 volume @ 90 kg/m3 = 472~ kT

Victory Class SD (900m): 1.6e7 volume @ 90 kg/m3 = 1,441~ kT

Tector Class SD (1600m): 9.0e7 volume @ 110 kg/m3 = 9,900 kT
This subclass is basically an ISD with no internal hangar.

Secutor Class SD (2200m): 2.34e8 volume @ 90 kg/m3 = 21,056 kT

[MKSheppard]

Redid Imperial Navy Stats a bit.

2.5% Star Dreadnoughts (1,500,000 kt)
20,250,000.00 kT total in 13.00 Ships or 0.01 per sector

5% Star Cruisers (20,000 kT)
40,500,000.00 kT total in 2,025.00 Ships or 1.98 per sector

25% Star Destroyers (8,000 kT)
202,500,000.00 kT total in 25,312.00 Ships or 24.72 per sector

25% Cruisers (1,800 kT)
202,500,000.00 kT total in 112,500.00 Ships or 109.86 per sector

25% Destroyers (400 kT)
202,500,000.00 kT total in 506,250.00 Ships or 494.38 per sector

13% Frigates (90 kT)
101,250,000.00 kT total in 1,125,000.00 Ships or 1,098.63 per sector

13% Corvettes (20 kT)
101,250,000.00 kT total in 5,062,500.00 Ships or 4,943.85 per sector

6,833,600.00 Ships TOTAL or 6,673.44 per sector

[MKSheppard]

Random aside, how the christ would they come up with a naming system for 6.83 million ships?

[Batman]

Name them after the planet/system/sector they're protecting? Worked fine for me in 'Rebellion' (granted, that was a lot less ships)

[Eternal_Freedom]

Random aside, how the christ would they come up with a naming system for 6.83 million ships?

While it is a lot of ships, you've also got tens of thousands of worlds each with tens of thousands of years of history - not to mention something like 6 million forms of communication. hell, with a galaxy-wide civilisation and 25,000 years of history, you've probably got 6 million names of prominent people you could use, never mind battles, events, virtues, myths, beasts, rivers, mountains, seas, moons, constellations...

[fractalsponge1]

Random aside, how the christ would they come up with a naming system for 6.83 million ships?

Another possibility from the above, and I like to think this is the case - almost nothing (in relative terms) actually gets named. Destroyers (or whatever the equivalent at the time we're talking about) and up definitely get names, and these names are dominant. Everything below, gets a code, can get names assigned locally, but these courtesy names/callsigns would get superseded when in company of an actual Named ship. So a backwater patrol cutter can be "HIMS Executor" to its own squadron but if it actually gets in the same operational area as the Named Executor then it reverts to MA21C33902N5Z or something. Communication protocols/IFF wouldn't use names anyway.

A ship that distinguishes itself may actually get its callsign made permanent, if the name is available and appropriate, or get an appropriate permanent name assigned.

[Rhadamantus]

Random aside, how the christ would they come up with a naming system for 6.83 million ships?

Another possibility from the above, and I like to think this is the case - almost nothing (in relative terms) actually gets named. Destroyers (or whatever the equivalent at the time we're talking about) and up definitely get names, and these names are dominant. Everything below, gets a code, can get names assigned locally, but these courtesy names/callsigns would get superseded when in company of an actual Named ship. So a backwater patrol cutter can be "HIMS Executor" to its own squadron but if it actually gets in the same operational area as the Named Executor then it reverts to MA21C33902N5Z or something. Communication protocols/IFF wouldn't use names anyway.

A ship that distinguishes itself may actually get its callsign made permanent, if the name is available and appropriate, or get an appropriate permanent name assigned.

That sounds reasonable for a navy of 7 million ships. I think they'd still try to name every ship, though. The Republic Navy would be a relatively small affair of tens of thousands of ships for most of its existence, and it would be likely that they'd name every ship. If they did, it would be hard for a deeply traditional navy to move away from this custom, even as it became increasingly absurd.

[PhoenixKnig]

Random aside, how the christ would they come up with a naming system for 6.83 million ships?

While it is a lot of ships, you've also got tens of thousands of worlds each with tens of thousands of years of history - not to mention something like 6 million forms of communication. hell, with a galaxy-wide civilisation and 25,000 years of history, you've probably got 6 million names of prominent people you could use, never mind battles, events, virtues, myths, beasts, rivers, mountains, seas, moons, constellations...

You could go for the Alpha numeric in other languages

[Rhadamantus]

Here is a more detailed guess at the size of the Republic/Imperial navy over the 60BBY to Yavin period. It starts out as a small anti-piracy force that grows by an order of magnitude over the decades before the Clone Wars as galactic peace begins to collapse. It then surges when the war starts as it absorbs the great bulk of local forces, to which it adds a massive amount of new construction. This is slowly mothballed in the Imperial era and replaced with more purpose built and carefully designed Imperial ships.

[PhoenixKnig]

I wonder how to Stark War played a factor in this as well

[MKSheppard]

Some finer analysis of fleet proportions based off combatant tonnage planned by the US in WWII (1940-1945).

NOTE: I deliberately excluded CVLs from this listing as they were built only at FDR's insistence to cover a carrier commissioning shortfall, and "poached" cruiser hulls away from the rest of the navy.

Total US Tonnage WW2 10,345,876 metric tons

Fleet Carriers 1,549,228 14.97%
Battleships 711,280 6.88%
Capital Ships 2,260,508 21.85%

Large Cruisers 208,800 2.02%
Heavy Cruisers 670,489 6.48%
Light Cruisers 1,179,804 11.40%
Total Cruisers 2,059,093 19.90%

Escort Carriers 2,252,920 21.78%

Destroyers 1,261,792 12.20%

Destroyer Escorts 1,707,790 16.51%

Patrol Frigates 245,400 2.37%

Submarines 528,973 5.11%

PT Boats 29,400 0.28%

If we use these basic proportions and combine some categories (CV+BB) and drastically scale back some things (the CVE percentages); something like this looks good for the Imperial Navy at Endor:

2% Star Dreadnoughts (1,500,000 kt) 16,200,000.00 kT total in 10.00 Ships or - per sector
3% Star Cruisers (20,000 kT) 24,300,000.00 kT total in 1,215.00 Ships or 1 per sector
24% Star Destroyers (8,000 kT) 194,400,000.00 kT total in 24,300.00 Ships or 23 per sector
20% Cruisers (1,800 kT) 162,000,000.00 kT total in 90,000.00 Ships or 87 per sector
2% Escort Carriers/Transports (1000 kT) 16,200,000.00 kT total in 16,200.00 Ships or 15 per sector
13% Destroyers (400 kT) 105,300,000.00 kT total in 263,250.00 Ships or 257 per sector
20% Frigates (90 kT) 162,000,000.00 kT total in 1,800,000.00 Ships or 1,757 per sector
11% Corvettes (20 kT) 89,100,000.00 kT total in 4,455,000.00 Ships or 4,350 per sector
5% Blastboats/System Patrol Craft (5 kT) 40,500,000.00 kT total in 8,100,000.00 Ships or 7,910 per sector
14,749,975.00 Ships TOTAL or 14,404 per sector

Regarding the Imperial CVE; I first estimated it's tonnage by doing the median of a Cruiser and Destroyer's tonnage, and got 1,100 kT. I then estimated it by using a box 500x150x200m with a density of 70 kg/m3 and got 1,050 kT.

The Imperial CVE's roles are:

* Supplementing convoy defense forces with extra TIE fighters to protect from rebel fighter attack
*Supplementing Imperial planetary assaults
*Transporting small craft and small ground units to and fro within the Empire -- replacement TIE fighters are flown off them to replace combat losses on Star Destroyers after an engagement, etc.

[MKSheppard]

Here is a more detailed guess at the size of the Republic/Imperial navy over the 60BBY to Yavin period. It starts out as a small anti-piracy force that grows by an order of magnitude over the decades before the Clone Wars as galactic peace begins to collapse. It then surges when the war starts as it absorbs the great bulk of local forces, to which it adds a massive amount of new construction. This is slowly mothballed in the Imperial era and replaced with more purpose built and carefully designed Imperial ships.

May I make a suggestion:

Have Republic force levels circa 32 BBY (The Phantom Menace) be:

1.98 GT in "Republic Reserve" + 7.64 GT in Republic Forces

The reserve consists of 1 x Star Dreadnought, 4 x Star Cruisers, and 50 x Star Destroyers.

The Star Dreadnought is part of a tradition going back 900 years to the centennial of the Republic's founding -- to celebrate the durability of their republic, the various governments agreed to produce a stupendous ship to show off what the Republic was capable of; and it was agreed that there would be just one for...reasons.

Over the centuries, as each Star Dreadnought becomes obsolete, a new one is constructed; all bearing the same name -- variants of the word Republic.

Basically, this reserve flotilla forms the "corporate knowledge" for the Republic in construction and design of very large warships -- because without that knowledge, there's no way that the Executor (19 km) could have been scaled up and built from existing (smaller) designs in such a short time during the Empire's reign, given the difficulties in developing the DS-1 Battlestation.

My own extrapolation of the Clone Wars fleet construction rate is a bit more exponential than yours:

22 BBY: 8 GT (AOTC, Start of Clone Wars) -- There have been small boosts in funding during Chancellor Palpatine's reign from the end of TPM to the start of the CW; allowing naval forces to enlarge slightly. But people are still paranoid about military forces under the central government.

Then the Clone Wars breaks out and it's a WWII-level scale mobilization by everyone involved:

21 BBY: 36 GT.
20 BBY: 162 GT
19 BBY: 729 GT

Basically, I assumed that each year, the fleet increases by 4.5x, and if we go by the force level of 25,000 ISDs circa Endor as a baseline, that means ship construction rates were approximately:

6,250 ISDs a year during the Clone Wars (4 years)
1,136 ISDs a year during the Galactic Empire's Reign (22 years)

Which also ties into your later data about the old Clone Wars era ships (Acclaimators) slowly being sent to the Deep Core reserve fleet(s) as newer Imperator class Star Destroyers and other combatant craft arrive to replace them in a "peacetime" fleet modernization program unprecedented (for the last 1000 years of Galactic history)

[Elheru Aran]

I wonder how to Stark War played a factor in this as well

It might have been called a 'war' but on a galactic scale it was pretty puny from the sounds of it. All it took was a bunch of Jedi and some Republic Navy forces to wrap it up.

[PhoenixKnig]

What are Imperial CVE

[Elheru Aran]

What are Imperial CVE

Shep loves his TLA's.

CVE="Carrier Vessel, Escort". Basically in wet navy terms, a small carrier for escorting mercantile formations or small naval flotillas. Presumably in Star Wars terms, Shep is visualizing a craft around the size of a large frigate but smaller than a Star Destroyer equivalent, that is specialized for the deployment of starfighters.

[Lord Revan]

What are Imperial CVE

Shep loves his TLA's.

CVE="Carrier Vessel, Escort". Basically in wet navy terms, a small carrier for escorting mercantile formations or small naval flotillas. Presumably in Star Wars terms, Shep is visualizing a craft around the size of a large frigate but smaller than a Star Destroyer equivalent, that is specialized for the deployment of starfighters.

Escort Carriers were a thing in the old EU and if their role remained the same still are in the current EU, Quasar Fire-class carrier from Rebels was one of the 2 escort carrier designs from the old EU. They're essentially mobile hangar bays big enough to carry 6 squadrons of 12 fighters each in around 300m long ship but had minimal weapons and shields, with essentially no ground troops.

[MKSheppard]

Shep loves his TLA's.

I would think that US Navy Hull Classification Symbols are universal enough to not require explanation, unlike most TLAs.

CVE = Carrier, Escort

The V is supposedly from "voler", which is french for "to fly"

This is from when the hull classification was expanded from 1 letter to two.

B = BB = Battleship
D = DD = Destroyer
C = Cruiser (splits into CA - armored, later heavy cruisers and CL - Light Cruiser)

Carriers were part of the cruiser lineage, but the designation "CC" had already been reserved for battlecruisers that were never built, so creating "cruiser-carrier" was out of the name. Hence the "voler" rigamole.

Presumably in Star Wars terms, Shep is visualizing a craft around the size of a large frigate but smaller than a Star Destroyer equivalent, that is specialized for the deployment of starfighters.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ton-Falk ... rt_carrier

They've been around since the WEG Imperial Sourcebook days:

Escort Carrier

The need for a TIE escort carrier became apparent after the Battle of Ton-Falk. In that battle, two Imperial frigates and a Dreadnaught were lost due to, as Naval Command reported, "inadequate TIE support." So the Navy commissioned Kuat Drive Yards to construct a vessel that would serve the specific function of carrying TIE fighters into battle.

The main duties of escort carriers are to augment the starfighter strength of the fleet they are attached to, and to transport non-hyperspace support shuttles from system to system. Box-like and inelegant in appearance, KDY's escort carrier performs these missions admirably.

Each carrier bases an entire TIE wing in its cavernous bays. Imperial policy mandates that at least one squadron of TIE Interceptors be included in the mix. Additional bays can carry up to six shuttles.

While carriers are equipped with protective weaponry, they are not considered combat vessels. They do not engage enemy targets and try to stay as far from the actual battle as possible.

Other missions that carriers regularly perform include augmenting the power of Imperial garrison bases. While the garrison quells planetary problems, the carrier assumes a stationary position in orbit over the planet. From this position, the carrier's TIEs can blanket the world to provide support from above.

Escort Carrier
Craft: Kuat Drive Yards' Escort Carrier
Type: Heavy starfighter/shuttle carrier
Scale: Capital
Length: 500 meters
Skill: Capital ship piloting: KDY Escort Carrier
Crew: 3,485, gunners: 20, skeleton: 1,500/+10
Crew Skill: Astrogation 3D+2, capital ship gunnery 4D, capital ship piloting 4D+1, capital ship shields 3D+2, sensors 3D+2
Passengers: 800 (troops)
Cargo Capacity: 500 metric tons
Consumables: 9 months
Cost: Not available for sale
Hyperdrive Multiplier: x1
Hyperdrive Backup: x12
Nav Computer: Yes
Maneuverability: 1D
Space: 4
Hull: 7D+1
Shields: 2D

That line and to transport non-hyperspace support shuttles from system to system is much like real life. In 1945, the USN had an entire fleet unit attached to the Pacific Fleet called CARRIER TRANSPORT SQUADRON, PACIFIC FLEET which contained 26 escort carriers that did nothing but shuttle combat aircraft and other items to forward bases from Hawaii/Continental United States.

Even with hyperdrives, it would take time for things to be delivered -- given the new movie SOLO talking about how expensive refined hyperfuel is -- it may be much more economical (even for the Empire) to have replacement TIEs and replacement crew members delivered on slow ships (taking a week to transit the galaxy instead of the Millennium Falcon's "hours to any place")

[Rhadamantus]

Very speculative listing of Dreadnoughts of the Republic.

[PhoenixKnig]

Shep loves his TLA's.

I would think that US Navy Hull Classification Symbols are universal enough to not require explanation, unlike most TLAs.

CVE = Carrier, Escort

The V is supposedly from "voler", which is french for "to fly"

This is from when the hull classification was expanded from 1 letter to two.

B = BB = Battleship
D = DD = Destroyer
C = Cruiser (splits into CA - armored, later heavy cruisers and CL - Light Cruiser)

Carriers were part of the cruiser lineage, but the designation "CC" had already been reserved for battlecruisers that were never built, so creating "cruiser-carrier" was out of the name. Hence the "voler" rigamole.

Presumably in Star Wars terms, Shep is visualizing a craft around the size of a large frigate but smaller than a Star Destroyer equivalent, that is specialized for the deployment of starfighters.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ton-Falk ... rt_carrier

They've been around since the WEG Imperial Sourcebook days:

Escort Carrier

The need for a TIE escort carrier became apparent after the Battle of Ton-Falk. In that battle, two Imperial frigates and a Dreadnaught were lost due to, as Naval Command reported, "inadequate TIE support." So the Navy commissioned Kuat Drive Yards to construct a vessel that would serve the specific function of carrying TIE fighters into battle.

The main duties of escort carriers are to augment the starfighter strength of the fleet they are attached to, and to transport non-hyperspace support shuttles from system to system. Box-like and inelegant in appearance, KDY's escort carrier performs these missions admirably.

Each carrier bases an entire TIE wing in its cavernous bays. Imperial policy mandates that at least one squadron of TIE Interceptors be included in the mix. Additional bays can carry up to six shuttles.

While carriers are equipped with protective weaponry, they are not considered combat vessels. They do not engage enemy targets and try to stay as far from the actual battle as possible.

Other missions that carriers regularly perform include augmenting the power of Imperial garrison bases. While the garrison quells planetary problems, the carrier assumes a stationary position in orbit over the planet. From this position, the carrier's TIEs can blanket the world to provide support from above.

Escort Carrier
Craft: Kuat Drive Yards' Escort Carrier
Type: Heavy starfighter/shuttle carrier
Scale: Capital
Length: 500 meters
Skill: Capital ship piloting: KDY Escort Carrier
Crew: 3,485, gunners: 20, skeleton: 1,500/+10
Crew Skill: Astrogation 3D+2, capital ship gunnery 4D, capital ship piloting 4D+1, capital ship shields 3D+2, sensors 3D+2
Passengers: 800 (troops)
Cargo Capacity: 500 metric tons
Consumables: 9 months
Cost: Not available for sale
Hyperdrive Multiplier: x1
Hyperdrive Backup: x12
Nav Computer: Yes
Maneuverability: 1D
Space: 4
Hull: 7D+1
Shields: 2D

That line and to transport non-hyperspace support shuttles from system to system is much like real life. In 1945, the USN had an entire fleet unit attached to the Pacific Fleet called CARRIER TRANSPORT SQUADRON, PACIFIC FLEET which contained 26 escort carriers that did nothing but shuttle combat aircraft and other items to forward bases from Hawaii/Continental United States.

Even with hyperdrives, it would take time for things to be delivered -- given the new movie SOLO talking about how expensive refined hyperfuel is -- it may be much more economical (even for the Empire) to have replacement TIEs and replacement crew members delivered on slow ships (taking a week to transit the galaxy instead of the Millennium Falcon's "hours to any place")

That's what I thought I just couldn't remember off the top of my head

[PhoenixKnig]

Very speculative listing of Dreadnoughts of the Republic.

What is your Republic class dreadnoughts

[Rhadamantus]

They would be the “corporate knowledge” for the Republic of how to build Dreadnoughts. In size and shape, it’s about 80 times the size of a star destroyer, and as their casualties show, probably not a ship built for war.