Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

[Q99]

Spoiler space...





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Billy Dee Williams is returning as Lando Calrissian in Episode 9

[Patroklos]

It stinks of desperation. He didn't make the first cut, but now that they unexpectedly lost Leia when they obviously were expecting her to be around for IX (of the three to bet on living, she was the obvious loser) and certain hacks and suits can't imagine SW without an OT character crutch, they trot out Billy Dee. The OP article makes it pretty clear this is a very recent development.

I have nothing against Williams. In fact, if they absolutely had to have an OT character in nuWars he should have been it. The only one. He was an important character plot mechanic wise, but he was not part of the trifecta carrying the main themes of the OT films. He could have been a bridge but without baggage, and without and expectations on the plot due to his presence.

[houser2112]

It stinks of desperation.

I think you're right. I thought I read somewhere that they asked him when the ST was first being made, but he didn't want to do it. I guess all the other characters being out of the picture one way or another changed his mind (or maybe Disney sweetened the pot)?

[ray245]

It doesn't help when it seems like the execs don't have full confidence in the new cast to carry the movies on their own. I don't think Rey, Finn and Poe are able to carry the SW franchise on their own, without legacy characters coming back as important supporting characters.

[Patroklos]

I bet Yoda gets trotted out again.

They are going to have the same problem with Lando they had with Han. Young, dashing, sexy gambler who plays both sides against each other but when the chips are down shows he is basically good is an interesting character people want to be (or think they want to be, as the reality of those characters between the lines is not explored). Old, elderly, washed up dude who basically tries to be the same person just suspiciously without a walker and oxygen tank, not so much. If they try and force some totally unearned from their OT characterization "wisdom of age" bullshit like the did with Han it will similarly fall flat. The simple fact is these characters were not that deep, and that's okay because that was not their role was in the films.

At the very least I hope they let Lando change his cloths in the last 30 years, unlike Han.

[Elheru Aran]

At the very least I hope they let Lando change his cloths in the last 30 years, unlike Han.

To be fair, some people simply don't change their style very much as they age, just their waistline. They find a look that works for them (or just one that they happen to like) and roll with it pretty much until other people start buying their clothes for them.

Billy Dee isn't nearly in as good a shape as Harrison Ford is, though, and capturing the 1980 aesthetic just wouldn't work. I can almost guarantee they'll try to keep the cape, though.

Lando isn't *that* hard to retcon into the plot, though. Remember that the Resistance is whittled down severely as of TLJ. At that point the surviving leadership (which was pretty much just Leia actually, and Poe) is going to be engaging in a mad scramble to pull in every favor and connection they have. Even if Lando is reduced to running some shithole planet on the Rim (or alternatively, making mega-bucks as a gambler), I can easily see Leia dropping him a line, if nothing else to buy them some help.

Or... I don't know how the novels have treated him in the Disney canon (though apparently he slugged Solo at one point and took Leia's side when it came out that her father was Vader), but I can easily see him being, say, a Fleet Admiral for the New Republic forces, in a sinecure position awaiting retirement at a military base... one that just happens to be well provisioned and handily positioned for the Resistance to resupply.

[Q99]

It doesn't help when it seems like the execs don't have full confidence in the new cast to carry the movies on their own. I don't think Rey, Finn and Poe are able to carry the SW franchise on their own, without legacy characters coming back as important supporting characters.

I don't think it's that- Lando's a lot less of a mentor figure type. It'd be neat if he was met more of a peer- it'd also be neat if he ruled a planet.

[Patroklos]

Its Abrahms. Lando will have a hidden super weapon. They will use it to destroy Galaxy Killer Base.

[The Romulan Republic]

It doesn't help when it seems like the execs don't have full confidence in the new cast to carry the movies on their own. I don't think Rey, Finn and Poe are able to carry the SW franchise on their own, without legacy characters coming back as important supporting characters.

I don't think it's that- Lando's a lot less of a mentor figure type. It'd be neat if he was met more of a peer- it'd also be neat if he ruled a planet.

I agree partially, and its absolutely wonderful that they're bringing Lando back. But certain people will immediately respond to any news about the ST by spinning it to reflect in the most negative possible manner on the films and their creators, because they are emotionally invested in proving that the films are failures.

That said, I actually do think that Lando could be a mentor- not to Rey (and they don't need a new mentor for Rey- just bring in Force Ghost Luke if you want that), but to Poe.

A major plot with TLJ was Poe growing as a leader, beyond being just the hotshot pilot. But he's still young, still relatively inexperienced... and with Leia suddenly gone, he's the obvious successor to command of what's left of the Resistance.

Bringing in an older general and businessman like Lando now allows him to further advise and mentor Poe as a leader, if they want to go that route.

I also don't think its necessarily wrong to bring back OT characters. The films shouldn't be dependent on them, but let's be real- Lando is not suddenly going to be vaulted to the role of main protagonist over Rey and Finn. They're doing this for the same reason Marvel has characters cameo in each other's movies, and for the same reason that they had TOS characters appear on TNG- because fans want it to feel like a connected universe, and they want to see their old favorites one more time. As long as its not overdone, or overshadowing the new characters, there's nothing wrong with that.

[houser2112]

I'm more worried about what they're going to do about Leia. I feel they should have taken some time to edit her out of TLJ after she was blown off the bridge. You lose her silly Force use, you gain some pathos for Ren killing his mom, and you avoid the problem of how to treat her in IX. All you really lose is the "reunion" with Luke at the end.

Now, they have to figure out what to do, and none of the options are all that good. You can't keep her off-screen for the last movie in the Skywalker saga, even if she's alive at the end, and especially if she dies during the movie. An off-screen death is the worst, I think. I don't think the tech exists to make a convincing CGI-Leia for as major a role she plays. Recasting is the least bad option, I think.

[Elheru Aran]

The easiest explanation? She died of long term effects from space exposure, her perking up at the end of TLJ was just her mustering up one last burst of energy.

IIRC they have said they aren't going to bring Leia back, so I don't really think they're going to recast. An off-screen death will probably be the way they go. It'll kinda suck, but it'll conveniently remove her from the plot.

Considering the state the Resistance was in at the end of TLJ, honestly I think it would be better if they tried taking a few years in between TLJ-IX in-universe. The Resistance needs time to rebuild, it lost almost all of its leadership so they might be scrabbling to pick up any experienced military leaders from the Alliance which is where Lando comes into the picture...

[PREDATOR490]

Lando returning - I have no issues with the actor or the character, he did the job he was supposed to and worked for the OT. The major issue is that these new films have made it clear they want to "pass the torch" bullshit. So far, the new characters are not worthy of being passed wind let alone have the OT characters used as vehicles to try and convince the audience to buy the bullshit.

Lando coming in just reeks of an attempt to draw fans in for the cameo while using the character to do more bullshit torch passing to the idiot generation.

Heaven forbid that some time take place between these movies. SW seems to be filled with the idea that everything has to happen NOW. Granted, this thinking is a staple of movies in general with entire plots missing the sense of scale and time frames that would come with doing things.
This does not include the very real possibility Abrahms will pull LOST crap like the did in the first movie and because this is the "LAST" he can walk away leaving whatever mess of undefined mystery bullshit behind.

Leia is still alive but somehow turned into a Force Ghost that is guiding Rey from the great beyond or Palatine has somehow become the Anti-Force ghost guiding Rey / Ren and needs to be killed for them to finally fulfil that shipper fantasy.

EVEN with LANDO in this, the last two "SAGA" movies and the "Solo" have burnt any interest or enthusiasm for the SW franchise.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm more worried about what they're going to do about Leia. I feel they should have taken some time to edit her out of TLJ after she was blown off the bridge. You lose her silly Force use, you gain some pathos for Ren killing his mom, and you avoid the problem of how to treat her in IX. All you really lose is the "reunion" with Luke at the end.

That's kind of a big loss, though, at least to me.

Also, IIRC Johnson said that he didn't want to cut Leia's scenes because he thought the fans would want to see Carrie Fisher's last performance. Which is... fair enough.

Now, they have to figure out what to do, and none of the options are all that good. You can't keep her off-screen for the last movie in the Skywalker saga, even if she's alive at the end, and especially if she dies during the movie. An off-screen death is the worst, I think. I don't think the tech exists to make a convincing CGI-Leia for as major a role she plays. Recasting is the least bad option, I think.

Recasting would be seen as disrespectful to Fisher by a lot of people, and potentially lead to a spectacular fan backlash before the film was even released. Ditto using CGI (which would also presumably require consent from Fisher's estate/family).

Having her off-screen all film is awkward, yeah.

Have her die off-screen between the films, and have the film open with her funeral.

Actually, I'd probably have it go something like this:

Opening crawl, First Order is taking over, Resistance/Rebellion is struggling to gather allies, etc. Leia is on a diplomatic mission to (insert world here).

Film opens with Leia's ship touching down.

Ship blows up on the landing pad due to First Order bomb/missile.

Cut to Leia's funeral service (maybe with a holographic image of Leia like in the funeral service at the end of Serenity), with Poe delivering the eulogy to his mentor. Followed by Poe assuming command of the Resistance forces.

That's how I'd do it, anyway.

[houser2112]

I'm more worried about what they're going to do about Leia. I feel they should have taken some time to edit her out of TLJ after she was blown off the bridge. You lose her silly Force use, you gain some pathos for Ren killing his mom, and you avoid the problem of how to treat her in IX. All you really lose is the "reunion" with Luke at the end.

That's kind of a big loss, though, at least to me.

Also, IIRC Johnson said that he didn't want to cut Leia's scenes because he thought the fans would want to see Carrie Fisher's last performance. Which is... fair enough.

We did see her last performance, and in my scenario it ended at the bridge explosion. I didn't say cut her entirely out, just edit it so we don't have to deal with the IX problem, to which there are no good solutions.

Recasting would be seen as disrespectful to Fisher by a lot of people, and potentially lead to a spectacular fan backlash before the film was even released. Ditto using CGI (which would also presumably require consent from Fisher's estate/family).

Was CGI-Leia in Rogue One disrespectful (the idea of CGI-Leia, leave aside the execution of the idea)? Was Leia in Rebels disrespectful? Were any of the other instances of Leia appearing in a game or film/TV that weren't depicted by Carrie Fisher disrespectful? If not, then I fail to see the difference for IX.

Having her off-screen all film is awkward, yeah.

Have her die off-screen between the films, and have the film open with her funeral.

Actually, I'd probably have it go something like this:

Opening crawl, First Order is taking over, Resistance/Rebellion is struggling to gather allies, etc. Leia is on a diplomatic mission to (insert world here).

Film opens with Leia's ship touching down.

Ship blows up on the landing pad due to First Order bomb/missile.

Cut to Leia's funeral service (maybe with a holographic image of Leia like in the funeral service at the end of Serenity), with Poe delivering the eulogy to his mentor. Followed by Poe assuming command of the Resistance forces.

That's how I'd do it, anyway.

You thought the fanboy backlash was bad for TFA aping ANH, yet you want to lift the opening scene from a prequel trilogy movie (and one of the least popular of them) for IX? You're brave.

Anyway, I suppose that's not a terrible way to end her role.

[Galvatron]

I could see there being some off-screen deathbed contingency from Leia being a final command to "find Lando Calrissian."

To which one of the new characters will inevitably respond: "The war hero who single-handedly blew up the second Death Star?!"

[Q99]

Leia shooting Poe, and meeting Luke, were both pretty major scenes you wouldn't want to lose IMO.

Also, I liked the space-walk! 'Course Leia has the force ^^

[The Romulan Republic]

We did see her last performance, and in my scenario it ended at the bridge explosion. I didn't say cut her entirely out, just edit it so we don't have to deal with the IX problem, to which there are no good solutions.

Maybe so, but as Q99 said, you lose some pretty big stuff.

Was CGI-Leia in Rogue One disrespectful (the idea of CGI-Leia, leave aside the execution of the idea)? Was Leia in Rebels disrespectful? Were any of the other instances of Leia appearing in a game or film/TV that weren't depicted by Carrie Fisher disrespectful? If not, then I fail to see the difference for IX.

Some people have the idea that you should retire the character with the actor's death, and IIRC Rogue One was shot before Fisher died. Not sure about Rebels. But its not about using someone other than Fisher, so much as its about replacing her with someone after she died.

It may not be rational, but human emotional responses very often aren't. They're still a factor that have to be considered, though. And ultimately, I presume that any use of Fisher's likeness would have to be approved by her next of kin.

You thought the fanboy backlash was bad for TFA aping ANH, yet you want to lift the opening scene from a prequel trilogy movie (and one of the least popular of them) for IX? You're brave.

Heh. But I do think something like this, having her die off-screen early in the film followed by seeing the consequences of her death on the galaxy and the other characters, is the best way to give Leia a presence in the film, followed by a dignified exit, without it feeling too contrived.

You could even build a whole plot off of it. Leia being assassinated in such an... impersonal method as a bomb could show that for all his talk about leaving old things behind, Kylo still can't bring himself to personally kill his mother- so he sends someone else to do it personally. Maybe have the assassin be one of the Knights of Ren, to finally introduce them. Yes, we're following AotC's lead pretty closely here, but if you're going to rip off old films, at least rip off the Prequels a bit too. They do have fans, you know, and if Star Wars is going to have a long-term fan base, then it needs to appeal to fans besides those who think that the OT is the be-all and end-all.

And of course, as Galvatron noted, Leia's death could be the catalyst for Lando joining the heroes. Maybe as a last request by Leia, maybe Lando comes on his own when he hears about Leia (and Han's) deaths.

Anyway, I suppose that's not a terrible way to end her role.

Yeah.

In a perfect world, Carrie Fisher would still be alive and portraying Leia in Episode IX, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. But since that's not an option, and they're not going to recast her, I want them to find a way to give the character a graceful exit without undermining the film.

Leia shooting Poe, and meeting Luke, were both pretty major scenes you wouldn't want to lose IMO.

Also, I liked the space-walk! 'Course Leia has the force ^^

It was hard to watch that scene in the context of Fisher's recent death, but beyond that, I have no problem with the scene. Seeing Leia actually use the Force, showing that she had actually progressed as a Jedi, was something I really wanted to see. It does beg the question of why she needed Luke to take on the FO, but there's an obvious reason for that; two actually. On the one hand, Leia has been stuck in the nitty-gritty of day-to-day politics for years, while Luke is this larger-than-life legend who can inspire people in ways she no longer can. And on a more personal level, Leia doesn't want to be the one to face, and possibly have to fight, her son- nor can the leader of the Resistance risk herself in a personal confrontation with the enemy commander.

[houser2112]

Yes, we're following AotC's lead pretty closely here, but if you're going to rip off old films, at least rip off the Prequels a bit too. They do have fans, you know, and if Star Wars is going to have a long-term fan base, then it needs to appeal to fans besides those who think that the OT is the be-all and end-all.

I am somewhat of a "be-all-end-all" fan myself, and my reaction to TFA was "I like this movie better when it was called ANH" (i.e. I wasn't happy). I like your idea because it spreads the pain, not shares the wealth.

And of course, as Galvatron noted, Leia's death could be the catalyst for Lando joining the heroes. Maybe as a last request by Leia, maybe Lando comes on his own when he hears about Leia (and Han's) deaths.

Lando was the first character I thought of when Leia sent out the call (and I can't be the only one), so I like this idea. It fits with Lando's "better late than never" theme.

Leia shooting Poe, and meeting Luke, were both pretty major scenes you wouldn't want to lose IMO.

Also, I liked the space-walk! 'Course Leia has the force ^^

It was hard to watch that scene in the context of Fisher's recent death, but beyond that, I have no problem with the scene. Seeing Leia actually use the Force, showing that she had actually progressed as a Jedi, was something I really wanted to see. It does beg the question of why she needed Luke to take on the FO, but there's an obvious reason for that; two actually. On the one hand, Leia has been stuck in the nitty-gritty of day-to-day politics for years, while Luke is this larger-than-life legend who can inspire people in ways she no longer can. And on a more personal level, Leia doesn't want to be the one to face, and possibly have to fight, her son- nor can the leader of the Resistance risk herself in a personal confrontation with the enemy commander.

The idea of Leia being a Force user isn't hard to swallow, given her lineage, it's just that she went from no hints of aptitude to surviving hard vacuum long enough to pull herself to safety. Show me pulling a coffee mug or something first to prepare me! I guess I have to resign myself to the fact that the Force is just less subtle these days, it doesn't have time to fuck around like it did with Luke.

[Gandalf]

The idea of Leia being a Force user isn't hard to swallow, given her lineage, it's just that she went from no hints of aptitude to surviving hard vacuum long enough to pull herself to safety. Show me pulling a coffee mug or something first to prepare me! I guess I have to resign myself to the fact that the Force is just less subtle these days, it doesn't have time to fuck around like it did with Luke.

The Force once manifested a guy out of nowhere. Someone from a family of naturally powerful space wizards doing space unexpected magic isn't that much of a stretch,

[Civil War Man]

My only issue with the Carrie Poppins scene is that it was supposed to be this stirring moving scene, but it just looked really silly. It immediately reminded me of that moment in the third Hobbit movie where Legolas runs up falling masonry like he's Bugs Bunny.

[The Romulan Republic]

I am somewhat of a "be-all-end-all" fan myself, and my reaction to TFA was "I like this movie better when it was called ANH" (i.e. I wasn't happy). I like your idea because it spreads the pain, not shares the wealth.

Heh.

Mostly, though, I wasn't thinking in terms of fan service, but just what would work well from a plot perspective. But if people were to get a kick out of seeing a possible shout-out to the PT, no harm done.

Lando was the first character I thought of when Leia sent out the call (and I can't be the only one), so I like this idea. It fits with Lando's "better late than never" theme.

Yeah. Lando is kind of a glaring absence for me in the ST right now, so I'd love to see him return for the third act.

The idea of Leia being a Force user isn't hard to swallow, given her lineage, it's just that she went from no hints of aptitude to surviving hard vacuum long enough to pull herself to safety. Show me pulling a coffee mug or something first to prepare me! I guess I have to resign myself to the fact that the Force is just less subtle these days, it doesn't have time to fuck around like it did with Luke.

I don't know. Her lack of using the Force through most of the ST is rather glaring, but we do know from both TFA/TLJ and RotJ/ESB that she can sense things through the Force (at least when they involve her family). And with Luke promising to train her in RotJ, it would be kind of a big disappointment if she didn't have more developed Force abilities in the ST. I do wish that we'd seen more of it, but I don't find it particularly implausible or out of nowhere.

The idea of Leia being a Force user isn't hard to swallow, given her lineage, it's just that she went from no hints of aptitude to surviving hard vacuum long enough to pull herself to safety. Show me pulling a coffee mug or something first to prepare me! I guess I have to resign myself to the fact that the Force is just less subtle these days, it doesn't have time to fuck around like it did with Luke.

The Force once manifested a guy out of nowhere. Someone from a family of naturally powerful space wizards doing space unexpected magic isn't that much of a stretch,

This ties back to my view that, at least for people with a strong connection to the Force and the right mindset, learning specific Force techniques doesn't take a huge amount of time. The hard part of training is developing the right state of mind, and learning why and when you should use the Force, not how to use it.

But as noted above, Leia had plenty of opportunity to learn some Force skills. I wish we'd seen more of it earlier, but since she spent most of the ST in a behind-the-lines capacity, its not surprising that we don't see more of it in action.

Hmm, what would have been some good opportunities to show Leia using the Force in the ST?

1. Have her use the Force to sense that Finn is trustworthy (him being a former First Order soldier) in TFA. This would be a particularly useful skill for a politician, and so one that Leia might have developed more than others.

2. Have her mention trying to reach Luke telepathically, but being unable to/being blocked by him.

3. Have her sense the First Order attack in TLJ coming before it arrived.

4. When she shoots Poe, have her Force-pull the gun out of his hand first.

All of these would have been easy to fit in the films without major changes.

My only issue with the Carrie Poppins scene is that it was supposed to be this stirring moving scene, but it just looked really silly. It immediately reminded me of that moment in the third Hobbit movie where Legolas runs up falling masonry like he's Bugs Bunny.

It wasn't that bad, but I'm not sure how one would shoot a person flying in space without in a way that doesn't look silly, unless they're making a Superman movie.

[Galvatron]

Since I doubt they'll recast the part and they've already stated that they won't use CGI to recreate Carrie Fisher, I truly expect them to kill her off-screen or by way of exposition during some battle. I could imagine some Resistance cruiser being destroyed, followed by someone like Poe or Rey somberly announcing: "That was General Organa's command ship."

Kinda like how Bail Organa's death was always considered implicit when Alderaan was blown up in ANH.

[Patroklos]

Don't shoot the scene, and come up with something less stupid.

The simple fact is the character development of Kylo deciding not to kill his mother, only to have it happen anyway, would have been such a great boon a new character that should be the focus of these new films. There is using the old characters as a bridge, and then there is letting the old characters suck the oxygen out of the room. I don't like the new characters all that much (though Kylo is the least flawed development wise), but I don't like seeing them actively sabotaged to no good end either. I love the OT and feel they are infinitely superior to all other film entries, but it was never a good idea to have septuagenarians (especially ones with zero recent acting experience of note in their age group, acting characters as a young and older women being entirely different skill sets) be major parts of any of these films. And if you had to have one persist, Luck/Hamil was the obvious choice for technical reasons, not Han and Leia.

Everything with Leia is a distraction. There is nothing she does that couldn't have been handled by a new character, and a throw away one at that. The failure to dispose of her in some fashion, especially when we had a natural/shocking/purposeful method of doing so written into the last film, just prolongs the distraction and magnifies it into the next film.

[Patroklos]

If you have to have the scene though, how about:

Poe staring desperately and defeated out the airlock window, grotesquely able to see his dead friends and mentors bodies floating beyond. Maybe some moving dialogue about how lost they are and is all my fault! But then BB-8 starts warbling. "Whats that wanna-be-R2? Life signs? But..but that's impossible!" He gets a few guys together and we get a scene of Poe and Rose going out to get her real space walk style. No need to linger, just a few seconds of them moving out of the airlock with exposure suits in puffs of thruster blasts. Poe pulls Leia's stiff body towards him, looking into her frosted face. Leia's eyes snap open... Cut. Scene opens at medial. We learn Leia threw herself int stasis, a more subtle but far more powerful display of talent than simple telekinesis. Maybe Leia tells us stoically "I tried to reach out and save the others too, but I wasn't powerful enough. I hadn't finished my training. I felt each one of them slip away and there was nothing I could do about it..." Grief stricken and weak from her ordeal, she lapses int unconsciousness so you can have the rest of the movie as filmed. Or she doesn't and we get a much better movie than we did.

[Q99]

I wonder if they have any leftover footage they could use for brief scenes...