The Clone Wars series to be continued

[ray245]

My contention was not "Kathleen Kennedy should never be criticized." It was whether that criticism is disproportionate. I agree that criticism comes with the job, but it does not follow that all criticism is automatically fair and correct.

I don't see you defending Lucas when he's running Lucasfilm.

I'm not saying Kathleen Kennedy can't handle it, though its interesting that your mind immediately jumped to that interpretation. I'm just saying that its arguably disproportionate, and that people need to take into account the difference between the situation she's operating under, and the one Lucas was working under.

The SW fandom has always been like this and toxic for years. The attacks on Jake Loyld, Ahmed Best and Lucas himself are just some of known attacks on someone running the SW franchise. It's a job that will be subject to very harsh personal attacks, kinda like a head coach or manager of a sports team.

Yes, of course leadership entails responsibility. However, it does not follow (in the mind of any reasonable person at least) that anything that goes wrong is therefore automatically the top person's fault, or that any criticism is automatically correct and irrefutable. That's a lazy approach to criticism, if nothing else.

I am not saying every criticism is automatically correct. I am saying the job itself is a high reward, but also high risk job to begin with. If you did something right, you'll be praised to high heavens and become worshipped by the fans. If you did something that the fans feel is wrong, you'll be worse than the devil to them.

Any person who wishes to take over from Lucas must be prepared to face these kinds of criticism, regardless of their validity.

Its also worth noting that Kathleen Kennedy isn't the top person here- at Lucasfilm, sure, but Lucasfilm is now owned by Disney, which means that she is subject to a level of corporate oversight that George Lucas has not been for a very long time. Which I specifically noted, and which point you ignored entirely in favor of questioning my comprehension.

She's the one with the wide range of responsibilities and authority over the direction of the franchise. If she felt she is not given enough control over the franchise, she could leave the job ( it's not like she needs the money). The fact that she stayed on suggest she feels she's given enough control over LFL. If she is not given sufficient control, then she made a mistake by staying on at Lucasfilm.

You cannot excuse leadership responsibility simply by pointing at someone higher up the management chain.

I bring up gender because I see a pattern here of certain elements of the Star Wars fandom subjecting female leaders to particularly harsh criticism. And while that may be coincidental in some cases, the overall pattern certainly makes an impression on me.

Edit: I have the same problem with knee-jerk "blame everything on this person because they're in charge in politics"- its a big part of how we get reactionary protest votes every election cycle, even if the candidate they're voting for is worse than the status quo in every conceivable way. Its a common phenomenon, but its also an abdication of one's responsibility to use one's judgment- to be meaningful, a criticism should ideally be specific and backed up by facts.

That's only valid argument if the prior leaders of Lucasfilm were better treated by the fans. If the creator of Star Wars himself cannot escape extremely aggressive and harsh criticism like "Lucas ruined my childhood" by fans and even professionals in Hollywood ( see Gary Whitta comments about George Lucas), then I am not surprised Kennedy is subjected to similar kinds of harsh criticism. If anything, I'll make an argument that Kennedy has far more goodwill from the fans that Lucas did because of her success with Ep 7 and R1. So yes, I think you're jumping to the gun in trying to defend her on the basis of her gender. It's not a good attitude in trying to promote more woman to take up more leadership position, because you can give people the impression you have a double standards.

[RogueIce]

Jesus Christ, fuck you guys and your negativity and "wah Kathleen Kennedy ruined Star Wars" bullshit.

Have something positive instead, the fan reaction to the trailer reveal:



Can we not rehash, just this once, "Disney ruined Star Wars FOREVER!!!11!!" please?

[Gandalf]

Jesus Christ, fuck you guys and your negativity and "wah Kathleen Kennedy ruined Star Wars" bullshit.

Have something positive instead, the fan reaction to the trailer reveal:

*snip trailer*

Can we not rehash, just this once, "Disney ruined Star Wars FOREVER!!!11!!" please?

No. Attacking Disney's running of Star Wars is how nerds prove themselves. How else are they to show themselves to be the Truest Fan if not through endless crusading internet posts?

[Galvatron]

Jesus Christ, fuck you guys and your negativity and "wah Kathleen Kennedy ruined Star Wars" bullshit.

Did I say that? If anything, I think Disney saved Star Wars from its creator. That doesn't mean they're above criticism themselves.

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't see you defending Lucas when he's running Lucasfilm.

On the contrary, I called out the Prequel bashers repeatedly, and continue to do so on occasion. If I talk about Lucas less now, it is largely because he is now less relevant. But again, the situations Lucas and Kennedy are operating under are different. Lucas had autonomy Kennedy doesn't. But by all means, continue ignoring this point.

The SW fandom has always been like this and toxic for years. The attacks on Jake Loyld, Ahmed Best and Lucas himself are just some of known attacks on someone running the SW franchise. It's a job that will be subject to very harsh personal attacks, kinda like a head coach or manager of a sports team.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't call the stupidity out, whoever the target.

I am not saying every criticism is automatically correct. I am saying the job itself is a high reward, but also high risk job to begin with. If you did something right, you'll be praised to high heavens and become worshipped by the fans. If you did something that the fans feel is wrong, you'll be worse than the devil to them.

Any person who wishes to take over from Lucas must be prepared to face these kinds of criticism, regardless of their validity.

But again, your whole point here seems to be "If you run Lucasfilm, no one can disagree with any criticism leveled at you, because it comes with the position." Or, if that's not your point, I'm not sure what is.

She's the one with the wide range of responsibilities and authority over the direction of the franchise. If she felt she is not given enough control over the franchise, she could leave the job ( it's not like she needs the money). The fact that she stayed on suggest she feels she's given enough control over LFL. If she is not given sufficient control, then she made a mistake by staying on at Lucasfilm.

You cannot excuse leadership responsibility simply by pointing at someone higher up the management chain.

So your argument is "If someone chooses to stay in the job, then any criticism of them, no matter how extreme or unjustified, is deserved and beyond reproach? That seems rather unreasonable.

I'd also like to point out the unfortunate implications of essentially saying that female executives (or anyone, really) should just quit their jobs if they're subjected to unfair criticism, and if they don't, then they brought it on themselves.

That's only valid argument if the prior leaders of Lucasfilm were better treated by the fans. If the creator of Star Wars himself cannot escape extremely aggressive and harsh criticism like "Lucas ruined my childhood" by fans and even professionals in Hollywood ( see Gary Whitta comments about George Lucas), then I am not surprised Kennedy is subjected to similar kinds of harsh criticism. If anything, I'll make an argument that Kennedy has far more goodwill from the fans that Lucas did because of her success with Ep 7 and R1. So yes, I think you're jumping to the gun in trying to defend her on the basis of her gender. It's not a good attitude in trying to promote more woman to take up more leadership position, because you can give people the impression you have a double standards.

Lucas was viciously criticized for years by fans. Some of that was deserved. A lot of it wasn't, and I said as much at the time. And I am sick of having every other discussion I take part in turn into me having to defend my personal character and motives, rather than my arguments.

Also, in addition to my concerns about gender, there is also my larger point against knee-jerk, reactionary, over-broad criticisms in general, which I think is valid.

[The Romulan Republic]

Anyway, getting back to the main thread topic, I'd rather like to see them do a version of the original Clone Wars cartoons' finale, showing the early stages of the Battle of Coruscant. And more of Cad Bane and Ventress.

I'd also really like to see how Ashoka survived Order 66, but that might be too much to hope for.

[Elheru Aran]

I'd also really like to see how Ashoka survived Order 66, but that might be too much to hope for.

You haven't read the Ahsoka novel have you? Check it out sometime. Literally even, I read mine from the public library.

Order 66 happens during ROTJ, so I'm fairly sure they wouldn't show that. They could show some more of the lead-up to it though. IIRC Cody removes his own chip before Order 66 happens, so...

[The Romulan Republic]

I'd also really like to see how Ashoka survived Order 66, but that might be too much to hope for.

You haven't read the Ahsoka novel have you? Check it out sometime. Literally even, I read mine from the public library.

Nah, haven't read it, but in any case, this is Star Wars. I'd rather see it on-screen than read it in a book.

Order 66 happens during ROTJ, so I'm fairly sure they wouldn't show that. They could show some more of the lead-up to it though. IIRC Cody removes his own chip before Order 66 happens, so...

Um... doesn't that just make Cody completely culpable in trying to kill Obi-wan? Or do you mean Rex?

[Elheru Aran]

I'd also really like to see how Ashoka survived Order 66, but that might be too much to hope for.

You haven't read the Ahsoka novel have you? Check it out sometime. Literally even, I read mine from the public library.

Nah, haven't read it, but in any case, this is Star Wars. I'd rather see it on-screen than read it in a book.

Order 66 happens during ROTJ, so I'm fairly sure they wouldn't show that. They could show some more of the lead-up to it though. IIRC Cody removes his own chip before Order 66 happens, so...

Um... doesn't that just make Cody completely culpable in trying to kill Obi-wan? Or do you mean Rex?

Errrr, yes, the one with the blue trim and the pistols. It's been awhile since I watched TCW.

Anyway, I'm fairly certain they won't rehash the book, but I did already suggest that they might run up to the Battle of Coruscant. Just mostly depends on where the unused plot elements end up going, the Bad Batch is the only one I really remember.

[ray245]

On the contrary, I called out the Prequel bashers repeatedly, and continue to do so on occasion. If I talk about Lucas less now, it is largely because he is now less relevant. But again, the situations Lucas and Kennedy are operating under are different. Lucas had autonomy Kennedy doesn't. But by all means, continue ignoring this point.

On the other hand, Kennedy heading a company under Disney also means there are far less immediate financial woes to worry about. Disney is far better that handling box office failures than a smaller studio like Lucasfilm.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't call the stupidity out, whoever the target.

Sure you can, but given this is a fandom that's been extremely toxic to whoever that's been in charge of Lucasfilm, I don't think you can say the recent backlash was solely due to Kennedy's gender.

But again, your whole point here seems to be "If you run Lucasfilm, no one can disagree with any criticism leveled at you, because it comes with the position." Or, if that's not your point, I'm not sure what is.

No, I'm saying gender doesn't really make much of a difference. Fans are just as toxic towards you regardless of your ethnicity or gender. If they cannot be sexist or racists towards you, they'll simply find other reasons to bully you until you want to quit the franchise.

So your argument is "If someone chooses to stay in the job, then any criticism of them, no matter how extreme or unjustified, is deserved and beyond reproach? That seems rather unreasonable.

I'd also like to point out the unfortunate implications of essentially saying that female executives (or anyone, really) should just quit their jobs if they're subjected to unfair criticism, and if they don't, then they brought it on themselves.

No, I'm saying your argument that the fans treatment of Kennedy is far worse than her earlier male predecessor is false. While some fans have been using her gender against her, most of the criticisms against her are not. I don't think the criticism Kennedy is facing was as bad as what Lucas had experienced when he was making the prequels.

I'm not saying female executives or anyone should quit the job because of unfair criticism. I'm saying running Lucasfilm is more like running a sports team or being a politician. If you want to take on the job, you must be prepared to handle all the harsh criticism for any perceived mistakes.

Lucas was viciously criticized for years by fans. Some of that was deserved. A lot of it wasn't, and I said as much at the time. And I am sick of having every other discussion I take part in turn into me having to defend my personal character and motives, rather than my arguments.

Also, in addition to my concerns about gender, there is also my larger point against knee-jerk, reactionary, over-broad criticisms in general, which I think is valid.

The issue I have with you is the idea that Kennedy somehow had it worse than Lucas because she's a woman running the show. That's not entirely true. Let's not forget the fandom were by and large backing Kennedy prior to TFA and after the success of TFA. I was one of the extreme minority that argues against Kennedy running Lucasfilm ( because I think being a good producer is not the same as running an entire interconnected fictional universe). It's only after TLJ that we really see more widespread criticism of Kennedy. Even then, the amount of criticism leveled at her is still relatively mundane. People were attacking Rian Johnson far more than they are attacking Kennedy.

[Vympel]

One has to wonder why Disney suddenly decided to finish that show... as it's a direct competitor with their upcoming Prequel show for the ST.


Right now I just cannot get myself to care about SW: Resistance.
But new Clone Wars content? Hell yeah. Stocking up on microwave popcorn and getting the fizzy drinks.

Erm - that you are just finding out about it does not make this a 'sudden decision'. Do you know how long the lead times are for producing any sort of television, including animation? This was on the cards before TLJ was released.

Every single decision is not some sort of rapid 'response' to some issue.

I can imagine the meeting at Disney that led to this, with Kathleen Kennedy tripping over herself trying to convince Bob Iger that everything's fine and him not buying it. Then Iger asked the assembled group if they had any ideas, to which Dave Filoni slowly raised his hand...

Yes, I'm sure that's exactly what happened. Dave Filoni pulled a Bob-from-Robocop on Kathleen Kennedy in the Disney boardroom - to which Filoni was for some reason inexplicably invited. All bad things flow from her but all good things flow from elsewhere. All of the blame, none of the credit.

(who do you think promoted Dave Filoni to head Lucasfilm Animation in the first place?)

Does anyone remember "Kathleen Kennedy" being thrown around a lot in 2015? 2016? 2017? You can look at SDN's own thread on TFA's release. The word "Kennedy" appears exactly 10 times in a 64-page thread (mostly quotes from news articles, too). All of them from before the film's release. A controversial film gets released and all of a sudden everyone who disliked it is an expert on whether she's a good producer. Like they had any clue what a producer does before two seconds ago.

The Lucas/Kennedy comparison doesn't even work. Lucas wrote and directed all three of the prequels. Criticisms of him (good and bad) were at least steeped in something actually significantly creative.

[tezunegari]

Erm - that you are just finding out about it does not make this a 'sudden decision'. Do you know how long the lead times are for producing any sort of television, including animation? This was on the cards before TLJ was released.

Every single decision is not some sort of rapid 'response' to some issue.

First season would require creation of CGI assets, casting of voice-actors, script writing and plot decisions... maybe 3-5 years.

Considering that most assets already exist, including a fair amount of scripts I'd give Clone Wars Season 7 a production time of 1-2 years.
Maybe another 6 months if you have to get everyone requainted with the material or have to get new people up to date on it.
So I think the decision to make it came sometime around early to mid-2017 if the release is in Fall 2019.

But Clone Wars had been cancelled for three or four years already. It was pretty much done and replaced with Rebels by then.

IIRC principal cinematography of TLJ was February 2016 to July 22nd 2016 with Ach-To scenes being shot in September 2015 for weather reasons.
Post Production was from August 2016 to September 2017.

The decision to revive Clone Wars would fall directly into the time when TLJ was in Post Production.
And I think someone at LFL had the insight that TLJ would split the fan base beyond the usual backlash of a fan base when new material is released.

So yes, I still consider it a relatively sudden decision.

[ray245]

Erm - that you are just finding out about it does not make this a 'sudden decision'. Do you know how long the lead times are for producing any sort of television, including animation? This was on the cards before TLJ was released.

Every single decision is not some sort of rapid 'response' to some issue.

First season would require creation of CGI assets, casting of voice-actors, script writing and plot decisions... maybe 3-5 years.

Considering that most assets already exist, including a fair amount of scripts I'd give Clone Wars Season 7 a production time of 1-2 years.
Maybe another 6 months if you have to get everyone requainted with the material or have to get new people up to date on it.
So I think the decision to make it came sometime around early to mid-2017 if the release is in Fall 2019.

But Clone Wars had been cancelled for three or four years already. It was pretty much done and replaced with Rebels by then.

IIRC principal cinematography of TLJ was February 2016 to July 22nd 2016 with Ach-To scenes being shot in September 2015 for weather reasons.
Post Production was from August 2016 to September 2017.

The decision to revive Clone Wars would fall directly into the time when TLJ was in Post Production.
And I think someone at LFL had the insight that TLJ would split the fan base beyond the usual backlash of a fan base when new material is released.

So yes, I still consider it a relatively sudden decision.

Alot of the scripts are already completed, with some voice acting done for several episodes of season 7. It's much, much easier to finish season 7 because more than half of the work has already been done.

[Vympel]

The decision to revive Clone Wars would fall directly into the time when TLJ was in Post Production.
And I think someone at LFL had the insight that TLJ would split the fan base beyond the usual backlash of a fan base when new material is released.

So yes, I still consider it a relatively sudden decision.

So Lucasfilm is apparently the home of an unidentified prescient genius who predicts a film in post-production is going to 'divide the fanbase' (like Lucasfilm institutionally gives a shit about 'the fanbase' being 'divided' in the first place) and so to 'fix' this damage (which for some reason no one could figure out just by .... reading the script) decide to put out another season of a long-cancelled TV show which (supposedly) 'the fanbase' enjoys.

Yes, that definitely makes way more sense as an explanation for this move than it being a gateway release for their new Disney streaming service using a known quantity.

[tezunegari]

The decision to revive Clone Wars would fall directly into the time when TLJ was in Post Production.
And I think someone at LFL had the insight that TLJ would split the fan base beyond the usual backlash of a fan base when new material is released.

So yes, I still consider it a relatively sudden decision.

So Lucasfilm is apparently the home of an unidentified prescient genius who predicts a film in post-production is going to 'divide the fanbase' (like Lucasfilm institutionally gives a shit about 'the fanbase' being 'divided' in the first place) and so to 'fix' this damage (which for some reason no one could figure out just by .... reading the script) decide to put out another season of a long-cancelled TV show which (supposedly) 'the fanbase' enjoys.

Yes, that definitely makes way more sense as an explanation for this move than it being a gateway release for their new Disney streaming service using a known quantity.

How is that prescience?

Predicting how the fan base might react is part of the marketing departments job.
And knowing the fan base and their expectations is as well.

Understanding what makes your franchise appealing is necessary to keep it alive.

And Lucasfilm should give a shit about the fan base being divided.
The more fans they drive away... the less money they'll make.
Just look at how well the merchandise for TLJ sell.

[Zixinus]

The only thing I could think of is "why? Why revive something you yourself gone out of the way to kill?". I suspect that they'll probably just finish half-made episodes. Perhaps leave it at that.

[The Romulan Republic]

Personally I'm glad that they're willing to admit they made a mistake in cancelling it when they did.

[ray245]

The only thing I could think of is "why? Why revive something you yourself gone out of the way to kill?". I suspect that they'll probably just finish half-made episodes. Perhaps leave it at that.

Because it took them time to realise fans don't actually hate prequel era stuff? It took EA a while to realise fans are annoyed with the lack of prequel era stuff in the first SW Battlefront game.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah. When Disney took over one of its priorities was pretty clearly assuring bitter OT fans that the new films weren't going to be like the Prequels. Too much so, probably. This ignores the fact that while Prequel bashers are vocal, they are not the whole or necessarily even most of the fandom- there is a whole generation of fans who grew up with the Prequels, for whom the Prequels were likely their first exposure to Star Wars, and who genuinely enjoyed them, even if nobody considers them great film classics. Nevermind that The Clone Wars is generally agreed on even by Prequel-haters to be better than the films themselves.

I expect the same thing will happen in a decade or two with the Sequels, as well.

[Lord Revan]

Yeah. When Disney took over one of its priorities was pretty clearly assuring bitter OT fans that the new films weren't going to be like the Prequels. Too much so, probably. This ignores the fact that while Prequel bashers are vocal, they are not the whole or necessarily even most of the fandom- there is a whole generation of fans who grew up with the Prequels, for whom the Prequels were likely their first exposure to Star Wars, and who genuinely enjoyed them, even if nobody considers them great film classics. Nevermind that The Clone Wars is generally agreed on even by Prequel-haters to be better than the films themselves.

I expect the same thing will happen in a decade or two with the Sequels, as well.

It seems that Disney is slowly figuring out that they were trying to please the portion of the fanbase that is more or less impossible to please unless you gave them total personal control over the franchise (which would be impossible as you can't do that with more then 1 person) and even then they might not be pleased as the movies would still be limited by time and money avaible.

[The Romulan Republic]

I've said it before, but honestly, one of the first rules of running a fiction franchise should be NOT to try to constantly cater to the demands of vocal fan groups. It may seem counter-intuitive, but you are never going to please everyone, especially when you have a large fan base that's grown over decades, with the older fans often having serious nostalgia blinders. All you'll get by trying is Written by Committee dialed up to eleven, complete creative sterility, or putting millions of dollars into canon works that resemble bad fanfics.

Edit: Just hire competent professionals with a clear vision of what they want to do, give them the resources and freedom to do it, but keep a vigilante continuity editor with real veto power in place to reign them in if the do something that blatantly clashes with established canon or upcoming plans by another writer/director. This seems to be the approach that was taken with Nolan's Batman films, and not coincidentally, they're the only unambiguous film success (besides maybe Wonder Woman) that DC has had since the '80s.

[ray245]

Yeah. When Disney took over one of its priorities was pretty clearly assuring bitter OT fans that the new films weren't going to be like the Prequels. Too much so, probably. This ignores the fact that while Prequel bashers are vocal, they are not the whole or necessarily even most of the fandom- there is a whole generation of fans who grew up with the Prequels, for whom the Prequels were likely their first exposure to Star Wars, and who genuinely enjoyed them, even if nobody considers them great film classics. Nevermind that The Clone Wars is generally agreed on even by Prequel-haters to be better than the films themselves.

I expect the same thing will happen in a decade or two with the Sequels, as well.

Personally, I lose quite a bit of respect to artists who gave in to fans demands far too easily. Usually, it can result in a very stifled creative vision. One thing I hate about the sequel era art design is everything feels like the OT. New X-Wings basically looked like the old X-Wings and etc. Wheras you can see a more distinctive design in the prequel era design. Yes, some fighters looked like X-Wings in some ways or another, but at the same time, they still look distinct and from a different era.

It's the same problem with all the old EU stuff, especially stuff like the KOTOR and other Old Republic games. For some reason, technology and ship design looked exactly the same 10,000 years ago. Fanboys would usually demand all things SW to remain exactly the same because fanbase by their nature is extremely conservative ( in terms of artistic vision). This is why some fanboys love directors like Zack Synder despite his films being horribly boring and stale.