Other commanders who are equal to or better than Thrawn.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, there's been a lot of talk in various threads lately about Thrawn, to what extent he is a villain or a good leader, whether he has sympathetic motives, whether he was just a dupe of Palpatine, and so forth. But one thing that is generally agreed upon is that Thrawn is a competent military commander, at least compared to most in the setting. I don't dispute that. But it does, as I've previously noted, bother me somewhat that Thrawn tends to be treated by some as a perfect commander who can never be beaten. So, here is my question:

Given equivalent forces, time to prepare, and knowledge of their opponent, are there any other commanders in Star Wars (Legends or canon) who could plausibly best Thrawn in open battle? How about in a larger-scale campaign (okay, I can answer that last one- Palpatine was unquestionably a superior political strategist and covert operator)?

[Eternal_Freedom]

On the Rebel/New Republic side, probably Ackbar or Garm Bel Iblis - both of whom faced Thrawn (over Bilbringi and Coruscant respectively) in Legends canon. Wedge Antilles in the Vong War era, maybe Tra'est Kre'fey as well.

For the Imperial side, potentially a couple of the other Grand Admirals though no names spring to mind immediately.

[Lord Revan]

On the Rebel/New Republic side, probably Ackbar or Garm Bel Iblis - both of whom faced Thrawn (over Bilbringi and Coruscant respectively) in Legends canon. Wedge Antilles in the Vong War era, maybe Tra'est Kre'fey as well.

For the Imperial side, potentially a couple of the other Grand Admirals though no names spring to mind immediately.

I suspect that most if not all of the Grand Admirals/Generals in legends are equal if not superior in one theater of command or other, they were all hand picked by Palpatine in legends after all. What made Thrawn at all a threat in the legends was his ability to think creatively while still remaining loyal to the empire.

[The Romulan Republic]

On the Rebel/New Republic side, probably Ackbar or Garm Bel Iblis - both of whom faced Thrawn (over Bilbringi and Coruscant respectively) in Legends canon. Wedge Antilles in the Vong War era, maybe Tra'est Kre'fey as well.

Bel Iblis faced him twice in a major fleet engagement "on-screen", I believe. He seemed outmatched on both occasions, and lost both battles, though he was able to salvage some of his forces. Then again, he may have been fighting with inferior forces.

Ackbar... EU Legends Ackbar maybe, though I confess I have never gotten the old EU's Ackbar wank, unless its just fanservice because he got that one iconic line. I've always been more impressed by Lando's performance at Endor than Ackbar's, personally.

Wedge Antilles was another I thought of, yes (as an aside, I love that the spell check on this forum apparently recognizes "Antilles" as a word ).

For the Imperial side, potentially a couple of the other Grand Admirals though no names spring to mind immediately.

Yeah, same here.

Though actually, I think that in certain arenas, Luke Skywalker could match him. I've always seen Luke as a very able tactician, plus all Force users can sort of cheat, to an extent.

For current canon, I'm not sure if Thrawn measures up at all to his Legends version, but I'd say the strongest matches off the top of my head, in my opinion, would be Luke Skywalker (in small-scale commando or possibly Starfighter tactics and in psychological manipulation), Palpatine (in large-scale political strategy and subterfuge), and Lando Calrisien (to whose courage, inspirational leadership and inventive tactics I give nearly the entire credit on the fleet side of things for the victory at Endor).

Edit: That said, I don't know that there's anyone I can say is as broadly skilled, in the current canon, as Legends Thrawn.

[FaxModem1]

Potentially, Revan. The wanktastic Jedi protagonist from the Knights of the Old Republic game. Man built an entire Sith Empire after defeating the Mandalorians, and only lost due to Malak firing on his ship to usurp him while he was engaged in a lightsaber duel at the time.

[The Romulan Republic]

Revan might have been able to give him a run for his money, although I think that's at least partly due to the advantage offered by the Force. I'm skeptical as to how Revan would fare if you surrounded him with Ysalamiri and then put him up against Thrawn- but then, it might be hard to say, because so much of what we have about Revan is down to player actions, without a definitive canon version.

[Lord Revan]

Revan might have been able to give him a run for his money, although I think that's at least partly due to the advantage offered by the Force. I'm skeptical as to how Revan would fare if you surrounded him with Ysalamiri and then put him up against Thrawn- but then, it might be hard to say, because so much of what we have about Revan is down to player actions, without a definitive canon version.

Also there's the matter of the Star Forge to consider as well. While we don't know exactly when Revan found the forge, it's easy to be a undefeatble commander if you can (for all intents and purposes) rapidly replace all your material losses at minimal cost, so that only limiting factor for your reserves is the number of people you have.

Also from what I've gathered Darth Malak wasn't exactly a competent commander but rather a incompetent brute who stayed in power due to his skills in personal combat.

In essence we don't know how much of Revan's "strength" was due to having for all intents and purposes a "turn off logistics" cheat and how much was due to his personal skills.

[Q99]

Gar Stazi from Legacy is a fantastic one.

I suspect that most if not all of the Grand Admirals/Generals in legends are equal if not superior in one theater of command or other, they were all hand picked by Palpatine in legends after all. What made Thrawn at all a threat in the legends was his ability to think creatively while still remaining loyal to the empire.

It's noted that the GAs were picked for a variety of reasons. Politics played a large role, and in one case kinda a joke as an admiral (Ishin-Il-Raz). Grant Tigellinus, and Syn were all skilled commanders but extreme devotion and/or political maneuvering were their main factors and there were considered odd choices. Some for navy-but-not-tactician-reasons, like Batch and Zaarin, who both great at running R&D (Zaarin was not a bad tactician and seemed to be good at developing doctrine for new units he developed, but Thrawn beat him fairly handily when Zaarin tried to launch a coup. Batch, was known for secrecy and stayed well on the R&D end), one, Declann, was skilled in Battle Meditation (but had a background as a TIE pilot and wasn't known for tactics or strategy outside his ability, so I think it's a matter of him being best paired with a better planner as a force multiplier).

I'd say that among the Grand Admirals, Thrawn's in the top tier and only a few could even play against him in battlefield control, and I doubt any could beat him. Teshik is the one I'd bet for next-best. Grunger and Pitta were also reportedly pretty respected (and ended up blowing each other up in the warlord times). Everyone else said to be a good tactician either lost to one of those three or Ackbar, so I feel pretty confident those are the best non-Thrawns.

[KraytKing]

On the Rebel/New Republic side, probably Ackbar or Garm Bel Iblis - both of whom faced Thrawn (over Bilbringi and Coruscant respectively) in Legends canon.

Yes, they both faced him. Over Coruscant, Thrawn knew the moment "the Corellian" was put in charge, and had predicted and accounted for what he would do. At Bilbringi, Ackbar was left shit out of luck and dying until unexpected reinforcements arrived. Furthermore, even after Thrawn's death, the book remarks that "Thrawn could still have pulled an Imperial victory out of it. But he, Pellaeon, was not Thrawn." This suggests that even when the tables have turned,everything has gone wrong, and the Empire is on the back foot, Thrawn could have beaten Ackbar.

I bet Vader could beat Thrawn. He's characterized as a simple tactician who uses brute force to in his battles, but I disagree. He was smart during the Clone Wars, he's just never had to apply himself in the last twenty years. Osvald Teshik could beat Thrawn in a battle, if not a campaign, as he was known as the best tactical commander in the Galaxy.

[NecronLord]

Its hard to argue one way or the other because ultimately generalship is not something we can easily quantify. Thrawn is certainly not intended to have any weaknesses - I believe it says as much in the annotated HTTE - by the author.

The only candidates I can say would definately beat him are those with force powers that can turn the tide of a battle. Nomi Sunrider, whose battle meditation seems much stronger than anything in the HTTE and was actually able to make her opponents turn on one another, seems like an obvious answer. Naga Sadow, who could create illusionary additional forces that could still kill (and only be diffused by the Jedi) would ruin Thrawn too.


Perhaps the best would be Grand Admiral Niall Declann, who was the one actually performing the battle mediation at Endor for the Emperor; we know that Thrawn does not know this as he believed Palpatine did it himself, therefore it would be a surprise to him - though of course Declann doesn't have any other known skills as an admiral so it might be that he is not good at the other part of running a battle.

But for certain victory, Nomi Sunrider or Naga Sadow.

Of course it's unfair to pit him against force users, but then again, it is unfair to pit anyone else against a savant who has a mysterious insight based on art that allows him to interpret any commander's intentions and fears by their culture's or personal artworks.

[The Romulan Republic]

On the Rebel/New Republic side, probably Ackbar or Garm Bel Iblis - both of whom faced Thrawn (over Bilbringi and Coruscant respectively) in Legends canon.

Yes, they both faced him. Over Coruscant, Thrawn knew the moment "the Corellian" was put in charge, and had predicted and accounted for what he would do. At Bilbringi, Ackbar was left shit out of luck and dying until unexpected reinforcements arrived. Furthermore, even after Thrawn's death, the book remarks that "Thrawn could still have pulled an Imperial victory out of it. But he, Pellaeon, was not Thrawn." This suggests that even when the tables have turned,everything has gone wrong, and the Empire is on the back foot, Thrawn could have beaten Ackbar.

I bet Vader could beat Thrawn. He's characterized as a simple tactician who uses brute force to in his battles, but I disagree. He was smart during the Clone Wars, he's just never had to apply himself in the last twenty years. Osvald Teshik could beat Thrawn in a battle, if not a campaign, as he was known as the best tactical commander in the Galaxy.

Vader does show some tactical intelligence in the films- criticizing Ozzel's maneuvers (and executing him for them) at Hoth, for example, and recognizing the need to launch fighters (unlike Tarkin) at Yavin.

If you combine Clone Wars Anakin's nerve and ability to think outside the box with Vader's less reckless, more coldly deliberate and experienced personality, you have something very dangerous.

Its hard to argue one way or the other because ultimately generalship is not something we can easily quantify. Thrawn is certainly not intended to have any weaknesses - I believe it says as much in the annotated HTTE - by the author.

The only candidates I can say would definately beat him are those with force powers that can turn the tide of a battle. Nomi Sunrider, whose battle meditation seems much stronger than anything in the HTTE and was actually able to make her opponents turn on one another, seems like an obvious answer. Naga Sadow, who could create illusionary additional forces that could still kill (and only be diffused by the Jedi) would ruin Thrawn too.


Perhaps the best would be Grand Admiral Niall Declann, who was the one actually performing the battle mediation at Endor for the Emperor; we know that Thrawn does not know this as he believed Palpatine did it himself, therefore it would be a surprise to him - though of course Declann doesn't have any other known skills as an admiral so it might be that he is not good at the other part of running a battle.

But for certain victory, Nomi Sunrider or Naga Sadow.

Of course it's unfair to pit him against force users, but then again, it is unfair to pit anyone else against a savant who has a mysterious insight based on art that allows him to interpret any commander's intentions and fears by their culture's or personal artworks.

For Thrawn's flaws: aside from the morally questionable nature of his actions... I don't know if it was intended, but I think Thrawn does suffer from arrogance in his original trilogy. He seems to believe that he alone can lead the Empire to victory or bring order to the galaxy, and he often overestimates his ability to control and manipulate others. He does it with C'baoth, he does it with the Noghiri (who should never have been body guarding him once he began to suspect them), and he does it with the ship thief he tries to use against the smugglers. All of those would-be tools proved less controllable and reliable than Thrawn seemed to expect, and each time it proved disastrous for him in one way or another.

I also like to think that the art thing was over-stated, and that it was mostly a cover for something else (because the idea that you could determine details of how an individual member of an entire species would act by looking at some of that species' art seems... rather racist, frankly, as well as implausible). I prefer the theory of it being mostly a rumor Thrawn cultivated to a) obfuscate his actual methods of analysis, b) create a mystique of being more perceptive than anyone else, and c) give him an excuse to use official funds to purchase large amounts of artwork and keep them on his flagship. I think this was previously discussed on this board many years back, but I can't recall where. But that's the retcon I'd favor- it still makes Thrawn intelligent, but in a less silly way.

Declann would be a good one, yeah.

[Lord Revan]

Its hard to argue one way or the other because ultimately generalship is not something we can easily quantify. Thrawn is certainly not intended to have any weaknesses - I believe it says as much in the annotated HTTE - by the author.

The only candidates I can say would definately beat him are those with force powers that can turn the tide of a battle. Nomi Sunrider, whose battle meditation seems much stronger than anything in the HTTE and was actually able to make her opponents turn on one another, seems like an obvious answer. Naga Sadow, who could create illusionary additional forces that could still kill (and only be diffused by the Jedi) would ruin Thrawn too.


Perhaps the best would be Grand Admiral Niall Declann, who was the one actually performing the battle mediation at Endor for the Emperor; we know that Thrawn does not know this as he believed Palpatine did it himself, therefore it would be a surprise to him - though of course Declann doesn't have any other known skills as an admiral so it might be that he is not good at the other part of running a battle.

But for certain victory, Nomi Sunrider or Naga Sadow.

Of course it's unfair to pit him against force users, but then again, it is unfair to pit anyone else against a savant who has a mysterious insight based on art that allows him to interpret any commander's intentions and fears by their culture's or personal artworks.

For Thrawn's flaws: aside from the morally questionable nature of his actions... I don't know if it was intended, but I think Thrawn does suffer from arrogance in his original trilogy. He seems to believe that he alone can lead the Empire to victory or bring order to the galaxy, and he often overestimates his ability to control and manipulate others. He does it with C'baoth, he does it with the Noghiri (who should never have been body guarding him once he began to suspect them), and he does it with the ship thief he tries to use against the smugglers. All of those would-be tools proved less controllable and reliable than Thrawn seemed to expect, and each time it proved disastrous for him in one way or another.

I also like to think that the art thing was over-stated, and that it was mostly a cover for something else (because the idea that you could determine details of how an individual member of an entire species would act by looking at some of that species' art seems... rather racist, frankly, as well as implausible). I prefer the theory of it being mostly a rumor Thrawn cultivated to a) obfuscate his actual methods of analysis, b) create a mystique of being more perceptive than anyone else, and c) give him an excuse to use official funds to purchase large amounts of artwork and keep them on his flagship. I think this was previously discussed on this board many years back, but I can't recall where. But that's the retcon I'd favor- it still makes Thrawn intelligent, but in a less silly way.

Declann would be a good one, yeah.

I have disagree on the art being a cover, I think it was a part of more complex system but not the only part, essentially you can tell quite a lot about the general values or "mood"(for a lack of better term) from their art, sure it won't tell you exactly how individual in that culture will behave but it will give a very broad general picture which you can use to put intelligence reports into proper context, sure it's not flawless but it's not totally useless either, since people generally are products of the culture they were born into.

[The Romulan Republic]

He might have gotten some broad insights from it, yes. But this still works with the idea that he then played it up beyond its actual utility.

[Vendetta]

I have disagree on the art being a cover, I think it was a part of more complex system but not the only part, essentially you can tell quite a lot about the general values or "mood"(for a lack of better term) from their art, sure it won't tell you exactly how individual in that culture will behave but it will give a very broad general picture which you can use to put intelligence reports into proper context, sure it's not flawless but it's not totally useless either, since people generally are products of the culture they were born into.

Art is almost completely useless for understanding anything other than a snapshot of the current mood of a single nation or region, let alone an insight into the psychology of an entire species.

[KraytKing]

I have disagree on the art being a cover, I think it was a part of more complex system but not the only part, essentially you can tell quite a lot about the general values or "mood"(for a lack of better term) from their art, sure it won't tell you exactly how individual in that culture will behave but it will give a very broad general picture which you can use to put intelligence reports into proper context, sure it's not flawless but it's not totally useless either, since people generally are products of the culture they were born into.

Art is almost completely useless for understanding anything other than a snapshot of the current mood of a single nation or region, let alone an insight into the psychology of an entire species.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you haven't seen any nonhuman art to see if it's fundamentally different. Could be that there's some deep underlying theme, invisible without something to compare it to.

[The Romulan Republic]

That's a fair point, but when I think of the shear diversity in human art forms, it seems to me that deducing more than very broad conclusions about individual members of our species based on even a wide selection would likely be impossible.

[Vendetta]

I have disagree on the art being a cover, I think it was a part of more complex system but not the only part, essentially you can tell quite a lot about the general values or "mood"(for a lack of better term) from their art, sure it won't tell you exactly how individual in that culture will behave but it will give a very broad general picture which you can use to put intelligence reports into proper context, sure it's not flawless but it's not totally useless either, since people generally are products of the culture they were born into.

Art is almost completely useless for understanding anything other than a snapshot of the current mood of a single nation or region, let alone an insight into the psychology of an entire species.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you haven't seen any nonhuman art to see if it's fundamentally different. Could be that there's some deep underlying theme, invisible without something to compare it to.

What is the deep underlying theme that connects this: and this ?

Those are pieces by two different artists from the same country in the same century.

The idea that an entire species has some deep underlying theme is daft.

[Elheru Aran]

To be fair, Zahn wouldn't be the first author to fall into the whole "planet of hats" trope when it comes to alien species... it's a bit of a lazy shortcut, but a pretty common one when it comes to sci-fi. Of course, there's also the notion that humanity is extraordinarily individualistic compared to other alien species...

I prefer the notion that Thrawn is using the art as a front and is relying on highly detailed personal intelligence, myself. Given the depth of Palpatine's paranoia and control on the Empire, it's reasonable that he would have directed his secret services to build massive quantities of data upon any potentially interesting person, particularly military officers and politicians who might turn upon him in the future. Thrawn could well have had access to such information. The artwork thing is merely a bluff, something that gives him a vague idea of characteristics that might be shared in common with other members of the species.

[Vendetta]

That works better as a watsonian explanation.

The actual reason is that Zahn wanted to shorthand "This character is Admiral Blue Holmes" but didn't include situations where Holmesian observation would have worked out. (Could possibly have written it in the battles, but didn't).

[Q99]

I honestly do feel that Thrawn's art thing was something he studied for inspiration, but was pretty darn secondary to his study of tactics and the mentalities of the commanders in other ways (which *Zahn showed him doing* iirc), he just chose to focus on the art for the tactical reason of it creating an air of mystery and intimidation that'd throw off his opponents.


And that plays into one of his big flaws: He wasn't great at teaching subordinates. He didn't explain his tactical calls- even though he could have. It made his appear invincible but it also prevented him from developing his subordinates nearly as much as he could. Pellaeon picked up some due to being the closest, but most were too busy ooing and aaaing. That final battle, aside from Thrawn possibly being able to pull it out, the other possibility is he could've told Pellaeon some contingency plans, but that wasn't his style.

[The Romulan Republic]

I honestly do feel that Thrawn's art thing was something he studied for inspiration, but was pretty darn secondary to his study of tactics and the mentalities of the commanders in other ways (which *Zahn showed him doing* iirc), he just chose to focus on the art for the tactical reason of it creating an air of mystery and intimidation that'd throw off his opponents.


And that plays into one of his big flaws: He wasn't great at teaching subordinates. He didn't explain his tactical calls- even though he could have. It made his appear invincible but it also prevented him from developing his subordinates nearly as much as he could. Pellaeon picked up some due to being the closest, but most were too busy ooing and aaaing. That final battle, aside from Thrawn possibly being able to pull it out, the other possibility is he could've told Pellaeon some contingency plans, but that wasn't his style.

This is likely somewhat true, in my opinion, and I think that it could tie back to what I said before about Thrawn's fundamental flaw being arrogance. Not the blatant, in-your-face arrogance of someone like that twit Vader chokes in A New Hope, but something more subtle, yet deeper- a deep conviction that he and his vision are uniquely suited to decide what is best for the galaxy, and that he is smarter than, and can control, everyone around him.

A certain mystique can be a useful tool for a leader, true, but not at the expense of developing their subordinates' capabilities.

On the flip-side, I think that Thrawn's great strength as a tactician was actually his ability to use existing/conventional assets in unfamiliar ways. You see this again and again in The Thrawn Trilogy: weaponizing Ysalamiri against Jedi, combining cloaks and battle meditation to bypass planetary shielding, using cloaked asteroids as siege weapons, using repurposed mining craft to try to hijack ships, getting around the issues with cloning, and probably more that I'm forgetting.

[NeoGoomba]

Its been forever since I've read HttE, but wasn't the art that Thrawn studied primarily those owned/admired by key opponents? Like he had some of Bel Ibis's collection, right?

I had always thought that he used it as part of the psych profile of any commanders/opponents he was planning on encountering, either across a battlefield or the negotiating table. I guess I just missed/forgot it was his magical Eye of Psychological Sauron.

[Captain Seafort]

Its been forever since I've read HttE, but wasn't the art that Thrawn studied primarily those owned/admired by key opponents? Like he had some of Bel Ibis's collection, right?

He seemed to prefer doing so, but he also claimed that it allowed him identify the species of the enemy commander in the opening battle of Heir to the Empire, based on their reaction to a picket ship's attack. He then exploited a psychological characteristic of that species to to destroy the enemy force.

[Elheru Aran]

IIRC he also viewed art that was actually created by the commanders he faced whenever possible; I'm fairly sure that at one point there was a mention of him looking at a work created by Ackbar, for example. -That- I find marginally easier to explain away than just the general artwork of a species.

[The Romulan Republic]

IIRC he also viewed art that was actually created by the commanders he faced whenever possible; I'm fairly sure that at one point there was a mention of him looking at a work created by Ackbar, for example. -That- I find marginally easier to explain away than just the general artwork of a species.

Yeah. Especially if the artwork specifically dealt with themes of warfare- for example, if your opponent was a big fan of The Charge of the Light Brigade, that would tell you something different about how they're likely to view war than if their favorite poem were Dulce Et Decorum Est.