Star Wars: Rebels

[The Romulan Republic]

As is often the case with arguments in favor of a "strong" (ie, despotic) leader as the only way to achieve stability and security, I'll point out that Thrawn didn't actually make the Galaxy more secure. Given that he, you know, lost to the New Republic.

Not to turn it into a real-world political debate, but to me, its like people who say things like "Assad should be leader of Syria because otherwise it'll turn into a Jihadi hell hole." Well... Assad was the leader of Syria. And under his watch, the country fell apart. And the only reason he didn't lose completely was because Putin pulled his ass out of the fire. Its a similar deal with Thrawn. His losing to the supposedly chaotic and incompetent democracy of the New Republic does not inspire me to think that he is a stronger and more stable alternative. Arguably, all he did was make the NR weaker and less able to fight off the Yuzhan Vong. Imagine if, instead, Thrawn had thrown his genius and resources behind the New Republic... but that would have required him to embrace a larger view of the Galaxy than peace through absolute power.

Also, I'll point out that the New Republic did ultimately beat the YV, albeit at a terrible price. Of course, all this is moot to the current canon.

[FaxModem1]

It's worth noting that Borsk Fey'yla(the Bothan senator) was the one tearing apart the New Republic, in a similar direction to the Old Republic around the time of the Thrawn trilogy. An unstable neighbor like that would fall apart due to in-fighting, and either needed to be stabilized, or conquered, so that it's forces could be turned outward to external threats. In classic Xanatos Gambit/Lord Revan form, Thrawn either conquers the New Republic so successfully and surgically that their infrastructure is relatively intact and can be swiftly used to aid the fight against the Vong under Imperial rule, or regains it's purpose so successfully that it strengthens itself to the point that they are a more militarized society and will be ready for future conflicts.

However, that doesn't justify Thrawn's campaign, as presenting a Defense pact ahead of time for a future conflict with the Vong would have been the more peaceful, sensible option. One that is more destined to lose to the very same unstable politics happening in the New Republic around the time Thrawn came onto the Galactic scene. In the mind of someone like Thrawn, a greater guaranteed victory for the galaxy is better than a potentially doomed attempt at diplomacy. One that would NOT have been accepted by the New Republic due to Fey'yla's political ambitions, and the Anti-Imperial sentiment of those behind him.

Note that Thrawn doesn't order the Empire of the Hand to fully stack behind the Imperial Remnant to conquer the New Republic(meta-wise, this is because they didn't exist in Zahn's head yet), but instead work on building up their forces for the fight to come, while the Imperial Remnant and New Republic both seemed to build up their own forces. This was due to Thrawn's standing orders to work on making themselves ready for the fight against the Vong as opposed to smashing the New Republic.

Does that make Thrawn a good guy? No. But it shows his long term priorities compared to the self interest shown by the politicians that made up the New Republic during the time of his campaign.

[NecronLord]

Leaning heavily on the schlock-tastic Vong to justify his actions and ignoring the Schlocktastic Reborn Emperor is why I have a logical problem with this.

I don't think you or anyone here actually likes the Vong arc, except when it comes to justifying Thrawn I only ever see it mentioned in a negative light.

And if Palpatine cared to stop the Vong, he could easily have found evidence of them and exposed them. He exacerbated the Trade Routes crisis and repeatedly blocked peaceful resolutions in order to sieze power. If he and Maul (and Plaguies) had had heart attacks and dropped dead at the start of TPM a peaceful resolution would have been achieved and the commerce guilds' droid armies (which they were originally allowed to have to stabilize the outer rim after all) could have been dropped on the Vong the moment they showed up.

In fact a Commerce Guild overlord producing a robot army was key to defeating the Vong anyway, but we don't think of that one as a commerce guild because it was run by Lando and he's a good guy. But given that the Sith were consciously responsible for the crimes of the CIS, to discredit them... yeah, they already had what they needed in the days of the Old Republic.

If the Empire is justifiable to destroy the Vong, why not these guys?

This contempt for democracy as a plot element is a longstanding bugbear I have with Star Wars' persistant Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire narrative of course. Certainly there is no compelling reason to think the 'corruption' of the Old Republic was so bad to justify miltiary dictatorship.

[tezunegari]

It's worth noting that Borsk Fey'yla(the Bothan senator) was the one tearing apart the New Republic, in a similar direction to the Old Republic around the time of the Thrawn trilogy.

IIRC Thrawn started that as well.

The Imperial Remnant somehow made it look like Ackbar is a traitor or at least took bribes.

Fey'yla just acted in perfect Bothan fashion by jumping at the chance to undermine a political opponent (Ackbar).

Though the loss of the Katana fleet to the Imperial Remnant was totally on Fey'yla for trying to get the prestige of recovering it himself.

[The Romulan Republic]

Leaning heavily on the schlock-tastic Vong to justify his actions and ignoring the Schlocktastic Reborn Emperor is why I have a logical problem with this.

I don't think you or anyone here actually likes the Vong arc, except when it comes to justifying Thrawn I only ever see it mentioned in a negative light.

And if Palpatine cared to stop the Vong, he could easily have found evidence of them and exposed them. He exacerbated the Trade Routes crisis and repeatedly blocked peaceful resolutions in order to sieze power. If he and Maul (and Plaguies) had had heart attacks and dropped dead at the start of TPM a peaceful resolution would have been achieved and the commerce guilds' droid armies (which they were originally allowed to have to stabilize the outer rim after all) could have been dropped on the Vong the moment they showed up.

Yeah. You don't get credit for offering a solution to problems you created.

In fact a Commerce Guild overlord producing a robot army was key to defeating the Vong anyway, but we don't think of that one as a commerce guild because it was run by Lando and he's a good guy. But given that the Sith were consciously responsible for the crimes of the CIS, to discredit them... yeah, they already had what they needed in the days of the Old Republic.

As an aside, I really like the CIS hardware (aside from the goofy basic battledroids), and I think its underrated compared to Imperial units or Rebel starfighters. Well, unless you regard their droids as sapient (which at least some of them appear to be), in which case their use of droid troops is absolutely horrifying, but they have some of my favorite ships in canon. The Subjugator is probably my favorite capital ship in the franchise (that or the Eclipse class dreadnought if we include Legends).

If the Empire is justifiable to destroy the Vong, why not these guys?

This contempt for democracy as a plot element is a longstanding bugbear I have with Star Wars' persistant Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire narrative of course. Certainly there is no compelling reason to think the 'corruption' of the Old Republic was so bad to justify miltiary dictatorship.

The interesting thing is that, while its easy to get the wrong impression because we only see it generally in periods where its weak/failing, the Old Republic is actually the most successful of any organization in canon at maintaining a lasting galactic government. A lot of the credit for that probably goes to the Jedi Order, but the fact remains that 1,000 years of peace (aside from small local wars and criminal activity) is about 985 years more than Palpatine's Empire achieved, and a better record than probably any government in Earth's history has managed on a much smaller and less complex scale. That is a fucking enviable record. And Palpatine, instead of using his undoubtable political genius, charisma, connections, and Force powers to protect and reform that system, actively undermined it and brought about its destruction. The only reason the NR, flawed as it is, even exists, and the only reason it has such difficulties, is because it is trying to rebuild in the ruins of the most successful government the Galaxy ever had, after Palpatine gutted it and committed genocide against its protectors.

[FaxModem1]

I think y'all are conflating me with the standard, "The Empire should have beat the Rebels, suck it nerds" crowd.

Thrawn is an appealing character, because he uses strategy, analysis, and thinking through solutions. Something not really seen in Star Wars protagonists, as the typical Star Wars protagonist is all about flying by the seat of their pants and running into the problem head on. The closest we have to that on the good guy's side is Admiral Ackbar, someone who we have all of a few lines from in the Original Trilogy, and he's supposed to act as Lando's foil, constantly being the wet blanket to Lando's acts of heroism and bravery in keeping the fleet together during the battle of Endor.

Thrawn presents the rational purview, of the pragmatic perspective being valid and winning in the Star Wars universe, as opposed to the 'let the force flow through you' point of view that the franchise hinges on.

Regarding the droids:

Why should we credit the Confederacy, when there's someone we should really credit for the ultimate War Droids.



If only we had an insane Jedi general and his kill crazy assassin droid to upset the balance....

[The Romulan Republic]

I think y'all are conflating me with the standard, "The Empire should have beat the Rebels, suck it nerds" crowd.

Thrawn is an appealing character, because he uses strategy, analysis, and thinking through solutions. Something not really seen in Star Wars protagonists, as the typical Star Wars protagonist is all about flying by the seat of their pants and running into the problem head on.

The closest we have to that on the good guy's side is Admiral Ackbar, someone who we have all of a few lines from in the Original Trilogy, and he's supposed to act as Lando's foil, constantly being the wet blanket to Lando's acts of heroism and bravery in keeping the fleet together during the battle of Endor.

Thrawn presents the rational purview, of the pragmatic perspective being valid and winning in the Star Wars universe, as opposed to the 'let the force flow through you' point of view that the franchise hinges on.

I mostly agree with that. I also think Thrawn gets some credit because he wasn't a cartoonish moustache-twirler like some Star Wars villains, and generally seemed more measured in his actions. Thrawn might kill a person, or a world, but he probably wouldn't do so just for kicks or to vent his rage. He was also the first major non-Force user villain IIRC, or at least the first highly-regarded one, which made him somewhat unique, and he had the advantage of debuting during something of a dry spell for the franchise.

Though I think people too easily equate ruthlessness with rationality and pragmatism. They are not in any way synonymous terms, except to the highly cynical.

Regarding the droids:

Why should we credit the Confederacy, when there's someone we should really credit for the ultimate War Droids.



If only we had an insane Jedi general and his kill crazy assassin droid to upset the balance....

There are other good droids, sure, but the people who mass-produced super battle droids, and created droids that could duel at least low-level Jedi (Grievous's guards), certainly make an impression. If it wasn't for my concerns about droid sapience, I'd say that its probably my favorite infantry force in the franchise.

[FaxModem1]

I think y'all are conflating me with the standard, "The Empire should have beat the Rebels, suck it nerds" crowd.

Thrawn is an appealing character, because he uses strategy, analysis, and thinking through solutions. Something not really seen in Star Wars protagonists, as the typical Star Wars protagonist is all about flying by the seat of their pants and running into the problem head on.

The closest we have to that on the good guy's side is Admiral Ackbar, someone who we have all of a few lines from in the Original Trilogy, and he's supposed to act as Lando's foil, constantly being the wet blanket to Lando's acts of heroism and bravery in keeping the fleet together during the battle of Endor.

Thrawn presents the rational purview, of the pragmatic perspective being valid and winning in the Star Wars universe, as opposed to the 'let the force flow through you' point of view that the franchise hinges on.

I mostly agree with that. I also think Thrawn gets some credit because he wasn't a cartoonish moustache-twirler like some Star Wars villains, and generally seemed more measured in his actions. Thrawn might kill a person, or a world, but he probably wouldn't do so just for kicks or to vent his rage. He was also the first major non-Force user villain IIRC, or at least the first highly-regarded one, which made him somewhat unique, and he had the advantage of debuting during something of a dry spell for the franchise.

Though I think people too easily equate ruthlessness with rationality and pragmatism. They are not in any way synonymous terms, except to the highly cynical.

Yes, hence why the scene where Pallaeon and Thrawn discuss the one culture Thrawn couldn't figure out how to beat without using overwhelming force and destroying them is a key scene about his character. He shows remorse for not being able to figure out a less violent method of being able to beat them. Thrawn seems to go for the less violent solution when able. It shows that he acts more as a scalpel than a hammer, and only uses the scalpel when he has to. The cloaked ships firing in sync under a shield with ships over a shielded planet shows that he wanted the planet with minimal loss of life and won by trickery rather than by killing the leadership of the planet and executing civilians, etc. He is, as you said, not a mustache twirler, but someone who has goals, and does what he wants to achieve those goals, but by minimum use of force.

Still not a complete good guy, due to his idea of throwing the people in the Galactic Empire as a sort of shield for the Chiss against the Vong and Vagaari, and his kidnapping of Leia and Han's children as a price for Jorus C'boath's help.

Regarding the droids:

Why should we credit the Confederacy, when there's someone we should really credit for the ultimate War Droids.



If only we had an insane Jedi general and his kill crazy assassin droid to upset the balance....

There are other good droids, sure, but the people who mass-produced super battle droids, and created droids that could duel at least low-level Jedi (Grievous's guards), certainly make an impression. If it wasn't for my concerns about droid sapience, I'd say that its probably my favorite infantry force in the franchise.
[/quote]

I think you need to be more informed about HK-47 and his methods of fighting Jedi:



Though, the reason we all love HK-47 is because he's aggressively insane with wanting to kill 'meatbags'.It's why I am sad that the non-modded version of KOTOR II didn't include the HK-50 factory.

[NecronLord]

I think y'all are conflating me with the standard, "The Empire should have beat the Rebels, suck it nerds" crowd.

Not really I am talking in the abstract, I know you aren't a closet fascist, but on the other hand I do think it valuable to stress that Thrawn is deluded and that the Empire gave precisely zero shits about saving the Chiss.

Regarding the droids:

Why should we credit the Confederacy, when there's someone we should really credit for the ultimate War Droids.



If only we had an insane Jedi general and his kill crazy assassin droid to upset the balance....

I'm not saying they invented war droids.

The pro-Thrawn argument is "The Corrupt Republic could never withstand the Vong."

Until Palpatine and his goons manipulated the decay of the Republic to their own benefit, the Geonosians were members of the Republic, so were the Colicoids and many other species best known for building war droids. The galaxy was never truly demilitarised, it simply had private armies of war droids that could have and would have been turned on the Vong if those internal divisions had not been exploited to brew into a war that was then manipulated by backstabbing to reduce the galaxy's war-droid manufacturers to penury and for a long time ban (!) assassin droids (SWEU - WEG various sources).



Argument: Palpatine overthrowing the Republic was necessary to defend against the Vong, because the Republic would never be able to do so.
Response: Palpatine gutted the militia forces of the Old Republic most able to fight the Vong, destroying much technical infrastructure and banning advancement (though he did not stick to this and developed various illegal war droids of course) in the field of military robotics.

While we know that the Empire developed many superweapons that would be of use against the Vong, their main superweapon, the Death Star, suffered many delays in construction as the Geonosians were in isolation and uninclined to help anyone (Legends) or exterminated (Canon).

Keeping the Geonosians as a thriving culture in the Republic would be a wiser course of action. A Great Weapon constructed by Republic Geonosians would probably be built faster and more securely, if the Republic could be convinced of the need for such a thing.



I will admit I have a hard time buying into the 'Vong would knock over the Old Republic' narrative, I am still very attached to the original vision of the Old Republic.

Another galaxy, another time.

The Old Republic was the Republic of legend, greater than distance or time. No need to note where it was or whence it came, only to know that...it was the Republic.

Once, under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the Jedi Knights, the Republic throve and grew. But as often happens when wealth and power pass beyond the admirable and attain the awesome, then appear those evil ones who have greed to match.

So it was with the Republic at its height. Like the greatest of trees, able to withstand any external attack, the Republic rotted from within though the danger was not visible from outside.

Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic.

The Vong were so fearsome that they waited decades after their first spies arrived before mounting an attack. THere's no grounds for Thrawn's belief that the Republic could not defeat them. If anything an attack by biotech sadist jihadists would galvanize the Republic in a way it might well have benefited from while it crushed them.

The Republic did not have a strong central military. It did not need one'; there's no reason to think that without Palpatine's antics the likes of the Trade Federation (relatively honest people before decades of sith manipulations) would not rally to defend their bottom lines Republic long enough for the likes of Corellia, Kuat, Rendili and so on to be switched to wartime production and armies to be raised and Great Weapons to be built.

Thrawn's love of militarism gave him a distorted idea of the supposed weakness of the Old Republic. Of course, he was banished by the Chiss for crimes of aggression so persuading his own people to join the Republic isn't on.

[FaxModem1]

I'm not saying they invented war droids.

The pro-Thrawn argument is "The Corrupt Republic could never withstand the Vong."

Until Palpatine and his goons manipulated the decay of the Republic to their own benefit, the Geonosians were members of the Republic, so were the Colicoids and many other species best known for building war droids. The galaxy was never truly demilitarised, it simply had private armies of war droids that could have and would have been turned on the Vong if those internal divisions had not been exploited to brew into a war that was then manipulated by backstabbing to reduce the galaxy's war-droid manufacturers to penury and for a long time ban (!) assassin droids (SWEU - WEG various sources).

This assumes that the Republic would be able to get all of these various Republic members to send their forces to work as a united front against the Vong, and not engage in various power grabs and internal fighting. Or decide to turtle up and only concern themselves with their own systems, letting their neighbors perish. Dooku may have united the Confederacy and made them into a rival power against the Republic under Sidious/Palpatine's orders, but they still have big beefs against the Republic for various reasons, as well as their own petty ambitions. A crisis like the Vong would be an ample opportunity to do so.

The New Republic also had to deal with political in-fighting due to Senate micromanagement of the war effort. This didn't happen in the Clone War, but such a scenario might happen with the Vong.

Without the Empire, it is just as likely that they do a Borsk Fey'yla and use this as a political opportunity for power. Or even worse, do a Game of Thrones and take out political rivals militarily instead of fighting the real threat. Palpatine may have lit the match, but the gasoline was already there and just waiting for some fool to ignite a spark. Say an ambitious leader of the Techno Union comes to power and wants to put their Battledroids to good use on the Genosians for whatever reason.

This also assumes that there isn't political gridlock in the Senate on what to do, as well as the Jedi being decisive as the Vong steamroll through outer planets. The Mandalorians did the same thing a few thousand years earlier, and it required a Jedi going rogue for the tide to turn, and that was with the Republic having a standing army at the time. They were still slapped around by the unknown conquerors due to lack of Jedi action until one of them(Revan) went rogue and led some Jedi volunteers to lead the Republic army.

The Jedi fulfilled a similar roll in the Clone Wars, as the Galactic Republic didn't seem to have experienced commanders, and overly relied on the Jedi to act as their tactical and military leaders.

Argument: Palpatine overthrowing the Republic was necessary to defend against the Vong, because the Republic would never be able to do so.
Response: Palpatine gutted the militia forces of the Old Republic most able to fight the Vong, destroying much technical infrastructure and banning advancement (though he did not stick to this and developed various illegal war droids of course) in the field of military robotics.

While we know that the Empire developed many superweapons that would be of use against the Vong, their main superweapon, the Death Star, suffered many delays in construction as the Geonosians were in isolation and uninclined to help anyone (Legends) or exterminated (Canon).

Keeping the Geonosians as a thriving culture in the Republic would be a wiser course of action. A Great Weapon constructed by Republic Geonosians would probably be built faster and more securely, if the Republic could be convinced of the need for such a thing.

Or they make a play for power and become conquerors of a Galactic sector if they want to. See above.

I will admit I have a hard time buying into the 'Vong would knock over the Old Republic' narrative, I am still very attached to the original vision of the Old Republic.

Another galaxy, another time.

The Old Republic was the Republic of legend, greater than distance or time. No need to note where it was or whence it came, only to know that...it was the Republic.

Once, under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the Jedi Knights, the Republic throve and grew. But as often happens when wealth and power pass beyond the admirable and attain the awesome, then appear those evil ones who have greed to match.

So it was with the Republic at its height. Like the greatest of trees, able to withstand any external attack, the Republic rotted from within though the danger was not visible from outside.

Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic.

The Vong were so fearsome that they waited decades after their first spies arrived before mounting an attack. THere's no grounds for Thrawn's belief that the Republic could not defeat them. If anything an attack by biotech sadist jihadists would galvanize the Republic in a way it might well have benefited from while it crushed them.

The Republic did not have a strong central military. It did not need one'; there's no reason to think that without Palpatine's antics the likes of the Trade Federation (relatively honest people before decades of sith manipulations) would not rally to defend their bottom lines Republic long enough for the likes of Corellia, Kuat, Rendili and so on to be switched to wartime production and armies to be raised and Great Weapons to be built.

Thrawn's love of militarism gave him a distorted idea of the supposed weakness of the Old Republic. Of course, he was banished by the Chiss for crimes of aggression so persuading his own people to join the Republic isn't on.

There was also the key fact that any form of fight would be led by the Jedi, who would be rather vulnerable to Vong weapons and unable to do anything force wise against them due to Cortosis and other bullshit. That was the big concern. The Jedi are the Republic's crutch, and the Vong are almost tailor designed to be able to sidestep the powers of the Jedi. The Jedi can also be terrible at reacting to external problems due to taking their sweet time with analysis to see what's going on. See the Mandalorian and Jedi Civil War. The Republic is always dependent on the Jedi to get their coals out of the fire. And when the Jedi are incapable of action, the galaxy burns for it.

This doesn't address the concern that Thrawn, Palpatine, or anyone else who knew about them could have simply warned the Republic, and given them time to get ready properly. But Palpatine wanted to be in charge, and burned the galaxy to do so.

[The Romulan Republic]

Again: there is only one government in Star Wars canon which managed to achieve a prolonged period of relatively stable and peaceful galactic government- the Old Republic, with the Jedi Order as its protectors. They had a thousand year run before the films, before Palpatine destroyed it all and plunged the galaxy into a new dark age. The New Republic's failures are due to them trying to rebuild a functioning society out of the debris after Palpatine obliterated a millennium of peace.

[KraytKing]

I take issue with the idea that the mercenary armies of the Old Republic would be able to exceed, or even match, what the somewhat centralized military of the New Republic could manage. The droid armies are agreed to be powerful, but they couldn't even kill the Republic before their new army rolled out. They lost a war against a woefully underprepared enemy, despite having every advantage from the onset. Sure, Palpatine wanted them to lose, but Dooku didn't; if the CIS is so pitiful as to be brought down by one lost battle for close to a year (Geonosis), then how could they possibly withstand the Vong?

I agree with FaxModem1 in that the different interests would each strike out for themselves, but I would add that even together, they would collapse in short order.

[Crazedwraith]

Sure, Palpatine wanted them to lose, but Dooku didn't;

Umm, what? Dooku and Palpatine were conspiring to keep the clone wars going. Dooku wasn't trying to win it.

[NecronLord]

Yeah, we are talking Legends where there is no dispute that Dooku planned to lose, we have his direct thoughts on the matter from his perspective in the RotS novel.

If we are talking about Canon, droid General Kalani believed that before the shut down command the CIS had an 76.4% chance of victory in the war. We have no grounds in Disney's products to think he is incorrect or deluded.

[KraytKing]

GODDAMMIT.

I had this whole fucking two-paragraph response, but it got eaten. Shit. Well, ere's the quick version.

I'll assume Legends, but the 75% thing is stupid. Palpatine can't use a console-command save and still look strong; he has to win the regular way, or at least look like he was going to. The galaxy can't think he was on the verge of defeat.

I guess I was wrong about Dooku. Must have been misremembering a couple of comics.

Because the New Republic has been in a galaxy of war for decades and came out of the ashes of a militaristic state, there is going to be much more tonnage in decommissioned warships lying floating around. The CIS can't have that many ships, because they were losing to the Republic per Warfare, and the Republic had far fewer ships tan the Empire, which had somewhat more ships than the New Republic. Also, the CIS couldn't blitz the Republic, as mentioned.

[NecronLord]

Or Kalani is aware that the CIS was going to complete its Great Weapon and once that's done, Coruscant goes bang, end of war.