Capitalism and Christianity are polar opposites!

[Lord MJ]

Long reply, but the most salient point is:

And the idea that merely being rich prevents him from entering heaven is contradicted by so many scriptures that it isn't even funny.

You say this here and elsewhere, but could you provide examples? I asked for those examples once already: Jesus telling rich men that they can go to Heaven. Until then, I see no reason to take a statement like "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven" and interpret it at anything but face value. You can wax poetic about the various details of your alternate interpretation if you like, and you can say "read the whole chapter" (which presumably means that I must also accept your interpretation thereof for some reason), but you should back up these kinds of statements with some kind of evidence.

"Tell those who are rich in the world not to be proud and not to trust their money, which will soon be gone... tell them to use their money to do good. They should be rich in good works and give generously to those in need, always being ready to share with others." Timothy 6:17-18

"If anyone has enough money to live well and sees a brother or sister in need and refuses to help, how can God's love be in that person?" John 3:17

Plus numerous scriptures in Proverbs that talk about managing finances, many of which are echoed by any competant personal finance advisor today.

Indicating that the mere possession of wealth is not what Jesus discouraged.


But even without these scriptures, the argument that rich men can't go to heaven based on this one quote falls apart because the quote was made as a result of an event that took place just a few scriptures before, inside the same chapter! Jesus is prompted to make this quote when his disciples ask a question of him, following an encounter with the rich man who wanted eternal life.

Futhermore it's impossible to understand this in full without knowing about the process of becoming a desciple and salvation, both of which are required to go to heaven.

[Darth Wong]

"Tell those who are rich in the world not to be proud and not to trust their money, which will soon be gone... tell them to use their money to do good. They should be rich in good works and give generously to those in need, always being ready to share with others." Timothy 6:17-18

That says people who are rich should give it away. I don't see an example of a statement that rich people can go to Heaven.

"If anyone has enough money to live well and sees a brother or sister in need and refuses to help, how can God's love be in that person?" John 3:17

See above.

Plus numerous scriptures in Proverbs that talk about managing finances, many of which are echoed by any competant personal finance advisor today.

Do any of them actually talk about accumulating wealth rather than giving it away? Encouragement to give wealth away and replace "rich in money" with "rich in good works" does not suggest to me that Jesus thinks rich men can get into heaven.

Indicating that the mere possession of wealth is not what Jesus discouraged.

All of which can be interpreted my way as well, with the added benefit of not contradicting "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven."

But even without these scriptures, the argument that rich men can't go to heaven based on this one quote falls apart because the quote was made as a result of an event that took place just a few scriptures before, inside the same chapter! Jesus is prompted to make this quote when his disciples ask a question of him, following an encounter with the rich man who wanted eternal life.

And did he not expect that rich man to give away his money? How does this contradict what I'm saying?

Futhermore it's impossible to understand this in full without knowing about the process of becoming a desciple and salvation, both of which are required to go to heaven.

Are you trying to say I can't understand it because I'm not a Christian?

[Lord MJ]

In those scriptures just mentioned, he does not simply say just give a way all your money. He says to give generously to those in need.


I know that it's possible to give generously and still maintain the wealth necessary to maintain a comfortable life, since I personally know people that have done it. In fact at last year's NSBE convention, one of our speakers said he was earning enough money per year, that he was able to give 80% of his money to charity. 80%.


But in order to do so, you must get your finances in order. You can't very well be wealthy and give generously while being in debt. Which is why Proverbs discusses commandments about how to keep out of debt, most of which are common sense. (No don't buy that fancy new car when you get out of school, when you have no money, and the car decreases in value over time.) Proverbs also teaches about how to accumulate wealth, (common sense stuff, like saving for the future, rather than pissing it away on worthless things.) And it also teaches about the responsibility to give back.

It's really impossible to give 80% of your money to charity and be able to surivive without earning lots and lots of wealth, simply because the costs of living are so great that you need great wealth to give away greater percentages. Which by the way completely blows away the argument the wealthy make about them being unfairly treated when it comes to taxes, since they have to pay a greater percentage of thier income than lower class individuals. (Though one could argue that we are all being unfairly treated when it comes to taxes.)

And once again the "Eye of the Needle" quote refers directly to the scriptures about the rich man, who decided not to join Jesus desciples because he did not wish to give up his possessions, and devote his life to traveling with Jesus.

And the funny thing is, if that man had obeyed Jesus and sold all of his possessions, he still would have had more than enough to live comfortably. Meaning that the whole thing really has to do with attitude.

[Lord of the Farce]

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven"

Looks like another one to add onto the list for people who thinks that we should interpret the bible literally...

[AdmiralKanos]

I know that it's possible to give generously and still maintain the wealth necessary to maintain a comfortable life, since I personally know people that have done it. In fact at last year's NSBE convention, one of our speakers said he was earning enough money per year, that he was able to give 80% of his money to charity. 80%.

That's nice, but he could only do that because his income was so large that he can still live a luxury lifestyle on 20% of his income. It is a paper sacrifice. Hell, I'm not rich and I cough up 50% of my income to charity; it's called taxes. And his charitable donations are all tax-deductible.

But in order to do so, you must get your finances in order. You can't very well be wealthy and give generously while being in debt. Which is why Proverbs discusses commandments about how to keep out of debt, most of which are common sense. (No don't buy that fancy new car when you get out of school, when you have no money, and the car decreases in value over time.) Proverbs also teaches about how to accumulate wealth, (common sense stuff, like saving for the future, rather than pissing it away on worthless things.) And it also teaches about the responsibility to give back.

None of this is unique to the Bible. The point, however, is that Jesus was very clearly anti-wealth. And since he didn't write Proverbs, I don't see what they even have to do with anything, unless you subscribe to the "Jesus didn't really change anything" school of thought.

It's really impossible to give 80% of your money to charity and be able to surivive without earning lots and lots of wealth, simply because the costs of living are so great that you need great wealth to give away greater percentages. Which by the way completely blows away the argument the wealthy make about them being unfairly treated when it comes to taxes, since they have to pay a greater percentage of thier income than lower class individuals. (Though one could argue that we are all being unfairly treated when it comes to taxes.)

Precisely. See earlier point.

And once again the "Eye of the Needle" quote refers directly to the scriptures about the rich man, who decided not to join Jesus desciples because he did not wish to give up his possessions, and devote his life to traveling with Jesus.

So? None of the wealthy people today devote their lives to Jesus either; they devote whatever part of their lives they can spare after making gobs of money.

And the funny thing is, if that man had obeyed Jesus and sold all of his possessions, he still would have had more than enough to live comfortably. Meaning that the whole thing really has to do with attitude.

Give me a reason to choose your interpretation over mine, which does not require that one basically ignore the "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven" and completely replace it with a modified version that sounds more like "it is OK for a rich man to enter heaven as long as he donates a significant fraction of his income to charity".

[Lord MJ]

"Give me a reason to choose your interpretation over mine, which does not require that one basically ignore the "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven" and completely replace it with a modified version that sounds more like "it is OK for a rich man to enter heaven as long as he donates a significant fraction of his income to charity".".

That's not what I'm saying at all. Jesus does not care how much you donate. He care's where your heart is. There are a lot of people that donate to charity, but for many of them it's just for show, they don't truly have a giving heart.


If you have truly been saved and repentent, and commited to following Jesus.

You would have the heart to share and give as much as you can, and not consider it a huge burden.

Jesus could really care less about how much wealth you actually have. But since most people that have great wealth don't really feel any moral responsibility to help others, and they aren't willing to sacrifice thier wealth. Which is why it's almost impossible for them to go to heaven.


Pretty much the only way I can truly debunk the interpretation that you have is to explain two things:


1.) Salvation, mainly how does one become saved.

2.) What it means to be a desciple, which would take up pages and pages.

The most I can say here is that being a desciple means that you have to be prepared and willing to sacrifice anything for Jesus, not that you will end up sacrificing everything, but if circumstances arise that you have to give up everything you have, a desciple would do it wilingly.

[Darth Wong]

That's not what I'm saying at all. Jesus does not care how much you donate. He care's where your heart is. There are a lot of people that donate to charity, but for many of them it's just for show, they don't truly have a giving heart.

Precisely. A person with a truly giving heart is not going to retain so much money that he can live a life of luxury when he sees people suffering and starving in the world around him. All of us in the first-world nations are, to a significant extent, driven by self-interest and greed.

If you have truly been saved and repentent, and commited to following Jesus.

You would have the heart to share and give as much as you can, and not consider it a huge burden.

Exactly. Mind you, this simple goal is not compatible with the accumulation of personal wealth.

Jesus could really care less about how much wealth you actually have. But since most people that have great wealth don't really feel any moral responsibility to help others, and they aren't willing to sacrifice thier wealth. Which is why it's almost impossible for them to go to heaven.

Do you recognize the self-contradiction in your statements? How can you truly be a giving person when most of this world's population lives in poverty and you retain enough money to live a life of luxury? I freely admit that I am motived by strong doses of self-interest; how does the rich man who claims to "follow Jesus" rationalize the wealth that he hoards to himself? Even if he gives a significant fraction of it away, he is still hoarding enormous amounts of money for himself in absolute terms. If Bill Gates gave away three quarters of his $50 billion, he would still be obscenely rich, and one would have to ask why he hung onto the rest. Giving away that which you have no real personal need for is not much of a sacrifice.

Pretty much the only way I can truly debunk the interpretation that you have is to explain two things:

1.) Salvation, mainly how does one become saved.

2.) What it means to be a desciple, which would take up pages and pages.

The most I can say here is that being a desciple means that you have to be prepared and willing to sacrifice anything for Jesus, not that you will end up sacrificing everything, but if circumstances arise that you have to give up everything you have, a desciple would do it wilingly.

You are trying to say that because of a complex series of doctrines revolving around your religious beliefs, the statement that I quoted should be ignored. This has not changed.

[Hobot]

That's not what I'm saying at all. Jesus does not care how much you donate. He care's where your heart is. There are a lot of people that donate to charity, but for many of them it's just for show, they don't truly have a giving heart.


If you have truly been saved and repentent, and commited to following Jesus.

You would have the heart to share and give as much as you can, and not consider it a huge burden.

Jesus could really care less about how much wealth you actually have. But since most people that have great wealth don't really feel any moral responsibility to help others, and they aren't willing to sacrifice thier wealth. Which is why it's almost impossible for them to go to heaven.

Are you intentionally ignoring Mark 12:41-44 and Luke 21:1-4? Of course Jesus cares how much you have and how much you donate.

Here's the version from the New International Version:

"41Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins,[1] worth only a fraction of a penny.[2]
43Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything--all she had to live on.""