RIP John McCain

[The Romulan Republic]

McCain was no saint, certainly. I disagreed with him sharply on most issues, and there are certainly points on which his own personal character can be called into question. I don't personally feel that that warrants metaphorically dancing on the man's grave, but I certainly understand (and to some extent share) objections to whitewashing the uglier aspects of his record. Nonetheless, there were moments where he provided a last bulwark against the wholesale insanity engulfing the Republican Party, and that is now gone. In some sense, to me, his death represents the final passing of the old Republican Party, which has now risen as the shambling zombie that is Trumpism.

McCain was scum. There's no reason to hold back just because he doesn't have a pulse. He was a horrid careerist warmonger. Interestingly, you state that he was a bulwark against Trump's Republican Party, which has merit. But I would posit that he also deserves a large amount of credit for that existing in the first place. His 2008 campaign gave rise to Palin and the rhetoric that would eventually become what you call Trumpism.

The Palin pick will, I think, be the thing that casts the longest shadow over his legacy in the long-term. To his credit, he did say later that it was a mistake (he wanted to pick conservative Democrat Lieberman as his VP, but was persuaded by his advisors that it would lead to a clusterfuck at the Republican convention). Pity he didn't have that epiphany sooner.

[Gandalf]

The Palin pick will, I think, be the thing that casts the longest shadow over his legacy in the long-term. To his credit, he did say later that it was a mistake (he wanted to pick conservative Democrat Lieberman as his VP, but was persuaded by his advisors that it would lead to a clusterfuck at the Republican convention). Pity he didn't have that epiphany sooner.

Yeah, he said that during a phase of his career I'll politely call "legacy shopping."

I don't really care that he was (allegedly) persuaded by his party guys, he should have put more thought into the choice and maybe had some planning as part of a presidential campaign. If he truly regretted the choice, he should have said so sooner. Instead he just enjoyed Palin's energising of the base in an election he was unlikely to win anyway.

McCain/Palin 2008 was essentially a dry run of Trump 2016. Trump was just better at it.

[Silver Jedi]

Nonetheless, there were moments where he provided a last bulwark against the wholesale insanity engulfing the Republican Party, and that is now gone.

Did he actually do anything to serve as this bulwark? I know he said some of the right things from time to time, but when it came time to vote, he pretty much always toed the party line.

He voted no that one time on the Obamacare repeal (which would've failed anyway), then a few months later voted yes on the sham of a tax bill that's going to completely fuck the markets at the core of the ACA.

[The Romulan Republic]

The Obamacare vote is the main one that comes to mind, as it was the most prominent recent example. He also worked with Bernie Sanders to pass a veterans care bill IIRC.

And he also was supportive of the Mueller investigation.

[mr friendly guy]

Since we are all into his legacy

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2008/2/27/464978/-
An older article from 2008

John McCain: “I hated the gooks. I will hate them as long as I live."

mojave mike
Community
Wednesday February 27, 2008 · 11:23 PM AWDT


In 2000, then-presidential candidate John McCain stirred up a controversy by stating in reference to his years in captivity as a POW, "I hated the gooks. I will hate them as long as I live." Within a few-days time, McCain, fearing a substantial backlash from California’s sizeable, and politically-savvy Asian-American community, tried to qualify his remarks by saying that he was referring exclusively to his prison guards. But, Asian-Americans were left to wonder, if only among themselves: Would Mr. McCain have gotten more adverse publicity if he had uttered a slur against blacks or Hispanics? Will his slur come back to bite him in 2008? Should he, after all these years, be confronted on this matter?

I don’t believe that McCain is a racist, and if I was McCain, I would be pretty pissed-off at my prison guards, after all, they TORTURED him relentlessly. McCain undoubtedly deserves a little slack on this one. But in classic denial behavior, and par for the course for most GOoPers, McCain passed up on an opportunity to offer a sincere apology, and instead, offered the mealy-mouth excuse that he was not using the term "gook" as a broad brush to paint all Vietnamese, or all Asians, but only the NVA, and then only those he encountered in "Maison Centrale." Anyone who served in country, or is even slightly familiar with the Viet Nam war era, knows that the term "gook" was used interchangeably with other terms like slant, slope, zip, zipperhead, and dink. Rarely did these labels applied only to NVA, VC, or other hostile forces. American soldiers and Marines routinely referred to their ARVN comrades-in-arms as "gooks." It was wartime.

Many years have passed since the last helicopter lifted off the roof of the U.S. Embassy in Saigon and the last boatloads of desperate refugees drifted through shark-infested waters to destinations unknown. The Vietnamese that came to the United States to seek freedom, real freedom – not the Freedom-Fry variety that George W. Bush likes to pontificate about. The Vietnamese-Americans are extremely hard working and patriotic, have become naturalized in astounding numbers, and have been extraordinarily successful in pursuing the American dream.

What has always confounded me however, is the overwhelming loyalty that this community has given to the Republican party over the last three decades. One can assume that this has been due to the Republican’s never-ending opposition to Communism, or at least their lip-service to that effect (as if somehow Democrats were pro-Commie). But what about the fact that two Republican presidents, Nixon and Ford, and their henchman Henry Kissinger, turned their backs on South Vietnam in their time of need, withheld further military assistance (materiel and otherwise), and precipitated its take-over by the Communist North. Although the anticipated blood-bath never materialized, the harsh retribution towards former American allies was what led to the exodus of South Vietnams best and brightest.

I have no doubts that a sizeable majority of the nearly one-million Vietnamese-Americans of voting age will support John McCain in November. He was, after all, the enemy of their enemies, Ho Chi Minh and General Giap, and old sentiments die hard. It will be interesting to see if the younger generation of Vietnamese-Americans, particularly those born in the U.S., will do the same.

[The Romulan Republic]

As time goes by, I'm getting more and more sympathetic to the view that the adulation of McCain is overblown. Not because I think that he's a monster and want to substitute a two-minute hate instead, but because nobody's death should overwhelm news coverage of all other issues like this.

Okay, maybe that's a (slight)exaggeration, and I'm not saying his death isn't newsworthy. Of course it is. I'm not saying that they shouldn't air his memorial service-even air all three of them. But does CNN, for example, really need to air constant discussion panels on John McCain, and long shots of his coffin being loaded onto a plane and flown to Washington, and so on, for a week or two after his death? If we want to honour his service to the country, then surely a more meaningful way to do that would be to use some of that air time to discuss issues of great import to the future security, prosperity, and liberty of the country? Like the ongoing Russia probe, or the continuing dismantling of our social safety net, or our never-ending infrastructure crisis, or the almost-totally buried story that the Trump Regime is now denying passport applications to citizens with Latino-sounding names living near the US border, in a practice overtly reminiscent of both the Iron Curtain of East Germany and the Nazis' stripping Jews of the citizenships in the lead-up to the Holocaust? Wouldn't actually focusing on serving America be a better way for the press to honour John McCain?

Of course, CNN at least has always been like this- they'll pick one story and fixate on that for a week or two to the exclusion of almost everything else, then move onto another story. Their fairly consistent ongoing focus on the Russia probe over a period of years actually strikes me as an anomaly in this respect (outside of election coverage, anyway).

[Gandalf]

The Obamacare vote is the main one that comes to mind, as it was the most prominent recent example. He also worked with Bernie Sanders to pass a veterans care bill IIRC.

And he also was supportive of the Mueller investigation.

Does his most recent Obamacare votes offset his previous votes and statements on the matter?

[The Romulan Republic]

The Obamacare vote is the main one that comes to mind, as it was the most prominent recent example. He also worked with Bernie Sanders to pass a veterans care bill IIRC.

And he also was supportive of the Mueller investigation.

Does his most recent Obamacare votes offset his previous votes and statements on the matter?

Neither erases the other, but I remain open to the possibility that people can change their minds for the better.

[Gandalf]

Does his most recent Obamacare votes offset his previous votes and statements on the matter?

Neither erases the other, but I remain open to the possibility that people can change their minds for the better.

You're nicer than I, evidently. I would think that after the way McCain conducted himself over his career, this, like asking Obama to deliver his eulogy, was one last chance to play "Maverick" for the adoring media. An egotist hoping that people might ignore what a shitshow he's been over his career.

[Vympel]

There's a more important reason for pushing back against the paroxysms of grief coming out of the media about McCain's death - its that it's an ideological push to sanctify not just the man, but his politics. For someone with a record as odious as that of McCain, resisting that is imperative.

[TimothyC]

McCain's replacement is going to be Former Senator John Kyl . Kly is the second Arizona Senator to serve non-consecutive terms in office, and like the prior example, first served in the third class before moving to the first class. The prior example was, of course, Goldwater. Kyl has also stated that he will not seek re-election in the 2020 special election for the seat. McCain won re-election in 2016, so the seat will be up for a special election in 2020, and an election for a full term in 2022. One theory is that if McSally looses in November, that Kyl could resign, and the Arizona Governor Ducey could appoint her to McCain's seat, letting her get some incumbency in before the 2020 election. Equally, he could get himself appointed to the seat if he loses the governors race this year, cementing the continuing tradition of making it so that no Arizona governor in the last 40 years has served an integer number of full official terms.

[Elheru Aran]

One theory is that if McSally looses in November, that Kyl could resign, and the Arizona Governor Ducey could appoint her to McCain's seat, letting her get some incumbency in before the 2020 election.

Would that be kosher, though? A Senator resigning, and then the losing candidate for the seat is elevated to the seat anyway, only to be deposed by the winning candidate?

Oh wait. The election is for Flake's seat, not McCain's. Never mind.

That said... it still smells to me.

[TimothyC]

Oh wait. The election is for Flake's seat, not McCain's. Never mind.

Yes. Because McCain lasted until after the first of May, the election for his seat is delayed until the general election in Arizona after this year (on the grounds that to hold it this year would not be enough time for candidates to be selected and campaigns to be run).

[Gandalf]

Jon "90% of Planned Parenthood is abortions" Kyl is back?

Maybe the Republicans can try to bring back Todd "legitimate rape" Akin too.

[The Romulan Republic]

There's a more important reason for pushing back against the paroxysms of grief coming out of the media about McCain's death - its that it's an ideological push to sanctify not just the man, but his politics. For someone with a record as odious as that of McCain, resisting that is imperative.

I agree with that statement for the most part, although I do think that there is a specific part of McCain's legacy which it is particularly relevant to promote and emulate, that being his opposition to Trumpism.

On that note, his memorial arrangements were very interesting to watch, in part because they were as much political theatre as they were a memorial. McCain deliberately used his own passing to bring Democrats and Republicans together in a show of bipartisanship and patriotism which explicitly excluded Donald Trump, and in which a number of the speakers delivered remarks that were clearly pointed criticisms of Trump and Trumpism. And because it is being done in the context of the funeral of a respected American war hero, any attempt to retaliate or respond by Trump will simply appear petty and inappropriate, and reflect more negatively on him. I've heard the McCain funeral described as the largest resistance meeting yet, and there's some truth to that.

In short, McCain's last major political act was to design his own funeral services to unite the country behind a pointed criticism of Trump, in a manner which effectively tied Trump's hands and ensured that McCain would get the last word. Egotism and legacy-building on McCain's part? No doubt. But whatever you think of the man, its a masterpiece of political theatre, and one that I think may do more good than harm.

Hell, I can only hope that when I leave this world, I can give my death one tenth the meaning that John McCain gave his.

[Gandalf]

Wait, what good does the funeral do? People who aren't too fond of Trump were all in one place, said some things, and...?

[The Romulan Republic]

Wait, what good does the funeral do? People who aren't too fond of Trump were all in one place, said some things, and...?

It was, as I said, effectively a show of bi-partisan unity of Republicans and Democrats honoring McCain for his service (opinions may vary on the actual value of that service) to the country, from which Trump was explicitly exclude.

Its easy to sneer at it as "just talk" and therefore meaningless... except talk and symbolism are absolutely not meaningless in politics. Especially in such a public manner around the death of a man who, like it or not, is considered an American hero, shortly before a crucial midterm election.

[Gandalf]

It was, as I said, effectively a show of bi-partisan unity of Republicans and Democrats honoring McCain for his service (opinions may vary on the actual value of that service) to the country, from which Trump was explicitly exclude.

And at the same time they normalise his horrific politics. I wonder how they'll rehabilitate Bush II and Trump when the time comes?

Its easy to sneer at it as "just talk" and therefore meaningless... except talk and symbolism are absolutely not meaningless in politics. Especially in such a public manner around the death of a man who, like it or not, is considered an American hero, shortly before a crucial midterm election.

Heh. Nothing says "Fuck Trump" better than bipartisan honouring a man who joked that Janet Reno was Chelsea Clinton's father, has advocated bombing pretty much everyone, and was happy to ride the Palin hype train. The big difference between him an Trump appears to be the ability to win a presidential election.

[houser2112]

And because it is being done in the context of the funeral of a respected American war hero, any attempt to retaliate or respond by Trump will simply appear petty and inappropriate, and reflect more negatively on him. I've heard the McCain funeral described as the largest resistance meeting yet, and there's some truth to that.

If only "appearing petty and inappropriate" was an effective bulwark against Trump being Trump.

[SolarpunkFan]

But I would posit that he also deserves a large amount of credit for that existing in the first place. His 2008 campaign gave rise to Palin and the rhetoric that would eventually become what you call Trumpism.

I might be completely wrong on this, but I'd imagine he didn't shortlist Palin personally. Maybe some campaign lackey decided that and McCain followed through without a second thought.

That's not to say he'd be entirely without fault. He really should have done some checking before following through, or failing that he should have ditched her after her colors came out in full force. But it's too late to wish for that.

[Broomstick]

My thought is that he accepted Palin as a sop to the young male and religious nutball demographics, with the hope that her being a woman might capture a few votes as well. If so, it did not work.

[SolarpunkFan]

My thought is that he accepted Palin as a sop to the young male and religious nutball demographics, with the hope that her being a woman might capture a few votes as well. If so, it did not work.

That too, especially considering that Hillary lost the primaries sometime around that time too.

[Gandalf]

I might be completely wrong on this, but I'd imagine he didn't shortlist Palin personally. Maybe some campaign lackey decided that and McCain followed through without a second thought.

That's not to say he'd be entirely without fault. He really should have done some checking before following through, or failing that he should have ditched her after her colors came out in full force. But it's too late to wish for that.

Yeah, it doesn't matter whether or not McCain had any part of choosing Palin. He had every opportunity to either leave the ticket, publically disagree, or whatever other options are available when the top/bottom half of a ticket clash. Instead he sat back, tacitly endorsing her actions while she riled up the angry white base and gave him a vague shot at winning.

[Silver Jedi]

The Obamacare vote is the main one that comes to mind, as it was the most prominent recent example. He also worked with Bernie Sanders to pass a veterans care bill IIRC.

And he also was supportive of the Mueller investigation.

Does his most recent Obamacare votes offset his previous votes and statements on the matter?

Neither erases the other, but I remain open to the possibility that people can change their minds for the better.

I think the fact that just a few months later he voted to fuck up the state markets and remove the individual mandate (arguably the most important part of the ACA) is a pretty clear indication that he didn't change his mind much

[The Romulan Republic]

It was, as I said, effectively a show of bi-partisan unity of Republicans and Democrats honoring McCain for his service (opinions may vary on the actual value of that service) to the country, from which Trump was explicitly exclude.

And at the same time they normalise his horrific politics. I wonder how they'll rehabilitate Bush II and Trump when the time comes?

Bush unfortunately already has been to some extent, if only because almost anyone looks good next to Donald. Trump... I don't know. Maybe history will whitewash him, and it wouldn't be the first time a horrible President was remembered fondly by posterity (see Woodrow Wilson, for example). But the thing is... most horrible Presidents still had some genuinely good accomplishments they could point to. What has Trump got that isn't a dumpster fire? A good economy (at least if you're a rich man), for now? The stains on his legacy already rival or surpass those of Richard Nixon, who is generally remembered even now as a bad person and a bad President. And the story of the investigation is not over. Maybe if Trump succeeds in stealing reelection and rewriting the history books he'll be remembered fondly. But if that happens, the ultimate history will likely be written by whoever wins the Second American Civil War.

Heh. Nothing says "Fuck Trump" better than bipartisan honouring a man who joked that Janet Reno was Chelsea Clinton's father, has advocated bombing pretty much everyone, and was happy to ride the Palin hype train. The big difference between him an Trump appears to be the ability to win a presidential election.

However much you hate John McCain, that isn't fair. To my knowledge, John McCain never betrayed his country, or made a concerted effort to destroy the institutional checks and balances and the free press which keeps America from becoming an autocracy.