Rey vs...: A discussion on effective use of the Force in combat.

[The Romulan Republic]

So, I was thinking recently about Rey, and how her powers match up to various other Star Wars characters. And for all the fuss over Rey's abilities, it occurs to me that she is actually not really high-end in what she can do. In how fast she's learned it, yes, and she probably will be on the level of a Skywalker or a Palpatine or a Yoda one day. But not yet. In particular, I would point to one glaring absence in her skillset as of TLJ: combat telekinesis.

In Star Wars, the nature and use of the Force, and various characters' abilities with it, is portrayed somewhat inconsistently. However, one thing that is fairly consistent is that the ability to effectively, reliably use telekinesis in combat is reserved for the most powerful characters. In the films, the only persons to do so are Vader, Palpatine, Dooku, and Yoda. Three experienced Sith Lords (one of them the fallen Chosen One) and a Jedi Grand Master with 900 years' experience. Other characters use it occasionally (Kenobi, Luke, and Asohka all come to mind, as do Darth Maul and Assaj Ventress), but not to the point that they rely on it extensively in combat. And even these characters are generally among the more skilled fighters. Various reasons have been offered for this- Jedi unwillingness to use the Force as a weapon is one that I've seen in the past, as is the degree of concentration required to use the Force under the pressure of combat. I think the latter one is more likely- we do see Jedi use (generally non-lethal) combat TK, but generally only the more capable ones. And the concentration issue would fit with Grievous's training in the (now non-canon) Clone Wars shorts, where Dooku stresses the need for surprise and intimidation when facing Jedi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKgv6xyY5MM

But whatever the reason, this ability seems to be largely confined to the most power Force users. The films bear this out repeatedly, beyond which characters are shown to use combat telekinesis extensively: in their duel in Attack of the Clones, Dooku and Yoda (among the most powerful Force users in the galaxy) duel at first exclusively with the Force, and only resort to sabers as a sort of tie-breaker upon finding themselves too evenly-matched. In Return of the Jedi, Palpatine is the sole OT Force user never to use a light saber. The old Legends EU backed this up at times as well. The (also now non-canon, sadly) novel Dark Lord has Palpatine comment along the lines of "The Sith have grown beyond the need for light sabers, but we continue to use them, if only to humiliate the Jedi." And in the Thrawn Trilogy, the Jedi Master C'baoth never uses a light saber, relying entirely on mind control, telekinesis and lightning in combat. So it seems that relying heavily on combat telekinesis is fairly consistently a high-end power, perhaps even a yardstick by which true mastery of the combative aspects of the Force can be somewhat reliably measured.

Which brings us to Rey. At no point, to the best of my recollection, has she used combat telekinesis on-screen whatsoever, unless you count the two times that she tried to pull Anakin's lightsaber to her- both of which cases involved moving a single small object, when she was not under direct attack. Her confrontation with Snoke, meanwhile, shows her as almost completely helpless against telekinetic attacks, in probably the most lopsided fight between two major Force users in canon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHOTQy10pi0

Now, its possible that after her breakthrough with the rocks at the end of TLJ, Rey will demonstrate combat TK in the next film. But at present she has demonstrated neither the ability to use it, or to defend against it.

So my question is: leaving aside character shields/pure luck/intervention by the Will of the Force, is there any major villain from a prior Star Wars film or series who Rey could take in a fight, one-on-one? Who is the strongest opponent she would actually stand a reasonable chance of beating? I've included the following villains in the poll in order of their level of power and skill (as I perceive it):

-Jango Fett.
-The Inquisitor (season one of "Rebels").
-General Grievous.
-Assaj Ventress.
-Darth Maul.
-Count Dooku.
-Darth Vader.
-Darth Sideous/Emperor Palpatine.

And my honest conclusion is that she would likely be seriously challenged by any individual on this list save perhaps Jango (who has no Force powers) and the Inquisitor, and that she would almost certainly loose to Dooku, Vader, and Palpatine (all of whom have shown extensive proficiency in combat telekinesis), although it is just possible that youth and raw power could allow her to overwhelm Dooku much as Anakin did on the Invisible Hand, or Vader as Luke did in RotJ*, if she went all-out (likely drawing on the Dark Side) and managed to close to saber range. If they simply hit her with TK (or lightning) from range, on the other hand, she'd have little or no chance. This is not a point against Rey as a character ("power levels" and combat skills have little or nothing to do with character quality), nor an attempt to assert that she is weak in the Force (obviously untrue). Just an interesting perspective on her abilities in comparison with prior films, and how that reflects the difference between a neophyte Force user (of any innate strength) and the true mastery that comes with greater experience and discipline.

*I would personally assess Rey's overall abilities as being roughly comparable to RotJ Luke, at this point, although stronger or weaker in some particular areas.

Edited because I forgot to add the poll before posting.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'll add that the first clip I linked to (Dooku training Grievous) is probably the best demonstration of what I'm describing in action: Dooku (an experienced, powerful master of the combative aspects of the Force) uses telekinesis effectively in a saber duel, while stressing to his non-Force using opponent (Grievous) the importance of destroying a Jedi's concentration, and surprising and intimidating them if he is going to defeat the most powerful Jedi.

[Q99]

It definitely seems to be the case that force use smoothly and quickly without having to stop to concentrate is something that takes skill, power, and practice.

I'm agreed that most of those more-practice hands would beat her, even ones technically a fair bit less strong in the force like Asajj or Grievous- and I don't think she's at RotJ Luke level yet either. Above ESB Luke (she had more real-world combat experience to draw on, while Luke had little fight experience before gaining the force), but not that level.

The (also now non-canon, sadly) novel Dark Lord has Palpatine comment along the lines of "The Sith have grown beyond the need for light sabers, but we continue to use them, if only to humiliate the Jedi."

I will note this is largely BS. Some authors seem to think so, but if Sidious didn't have a lightsaber in a couple of his fights, he'd be dead, no way he takes out the Jedi Arrest squad *that* fast with just lightning and TK, or the early parts of the Yoda fight. And that's just Sidious, let alone Dooku or other apprentices.

[Civil War Man]

I messed up by entries in the poll, and accidentally checked off the ones I figured could defeat Rey in a fair fight, and not the other way around. Basically, she has a lot of raw power, but her lack of training makes it so she can't yet utilize that power efficiently. More experienced Force users, especially those who specialize in lightsaber dueling (like Maul and Dooku) could probably take advantage of that inexperience. Grievous would probably lose under normal circumstances, but the four lightsaber thing might overwhelm Rey. Vader and Palpatine have more experience, and are in the same league in terms of raw strength, so Rey would be at a major disadvantage.

So, as she is now, I think Rey would lose to most of them without narrative interference. In the future, as she gains more experience, she'd start to fare better, probably able to best Grievous next.

[madd0ct0r]

I messed up by entries in the poll, and accidentally checked off the ones I figured could defeat Rey in a fair fight, and not the other way around. Basically, she has a lot of raw power, but her lack of training makes it so she can't yet utilize that power efficiently. More experienced Force users, especially those who specialize in lightsaber dueling (like Maul and Dooku) could probably take advantage of that inexperience. Grievous would probably lose under normal circumstances, but the four lightsaber thing might overwhelm Rey. Vader and Palpatine have more experience, and are in the same league in terms of raw strength, so Rey would be at a major disadvantage.

So, as she is now, I think Rey would lose to most of them without narrative interference. In the future, as she gains more experience, she'd start to fare better, probably able to best Grievous next.

I've cancelled your poll entry out.

[KraytKing]

Shit-damn. Did the same thing.

I hardly think she could take any of them, but my favorite sources are all non-canon. In Open Seasons, Jango takes on several Jedi hand-to-hand, dispatching several before being overwhelmed. Some are young knights or old padawans, but at least one is shown to be rather aged and experienced. Canon, Jango kills at least one Jedi at Geonosis before falling to Mace Windu in what I hope we can all agree was a major boner killer of a battle. Jango has an advantage in that he fights like an animal. All of Rey's foes have been duelists with some degree of formal training, so she might be unprepared.

Grievous takes on multiple Jedi with little difficulty in Genndy Tartakovsky's shorts, only failing once telekinesis is used. Canon, he is able to hold his own against Obi-Wan Kenobi, a skilled knight and user of the Force. i think Kenobi could fight Rey, so therefore so should Grievous. Rey might have an advantage here in that she has not been formally trained, so Grievous might not know what tricks to use.

The only of the others that I'm unsure of is the Inquisitor. I haven't watched Rebels beyond the second episode, so anything I say is just a guess. He has a weird lightsaber, which might throw her for a loop.

The (also now non-canon, sadly) novel Dark Lord has Palpatine comment along the lines of "The Sith have grown beyond the need for light sabers, but we continue to use them, if only to humiliate the Jedi."

I will note this is largely BS. Some authors seem to think so, but if Sidious didn't have a lightsaber in a couple of his fights, he'd be dead, no way he takes out the Jedi Arrest squad *that* fast with just lightning and TK, or the early parts of the Yoda fight. And that's just Sidious, let alone Dooku or other apprentices.

Some would say the whole fight with Yoda was itself BS. Yoda of the OT seemed a bit too wise to engage in all this tomfoolery of personal combat, and indeed, was never shown to carry a lightsaber. Same with Palpatine. I rather liked the idea that neither of the masters of the two fields carried blades, showing their preeminence. The Jedi fight is another mater, but he could have had guards or an apprentice dispatch them, say, if he got to Anakin a little earlier.

[Zixinus]

Yoda was not above fighting or figured himself so eminent that he would have had others fight for him. He was not that snobby and arrogant and snotty. In fact, Yoda was quite willing to fight if that was what he had to do. The first episode of Clone Wars has him in the middle of a battle for Christ's sake.

What he was, was an old man whose duties usually precluded fighting. When Order 66 came out, he cut clone troopers down without hesitation. What he was also someone who carefully picked his battles and being the grand-master of the Jedi, someone who used diplomacy above violence.

A big general of an army is supposed to command, not fight himself but that doesn't mean he's a non-combatant. Same for Palpatine: his public persona was a peaceful, friendly politician while being a master manipulator that always controlled the situation he was in. Fighting would have destroyed that image and thus he always arranged that other people fight for him.

But Palpatine also was quite filling to fight if he thought it needed to be done. In the Clone Wars, when Maul and his apprentice brother reappeared and started carving out his own little empire that slowly became a threat to Palpatine's plans, Palpatine took a ship and delivered a smack-down himself. In person. With lightsabers. And won. It was one of the biggest fights in the entire series.

[The Romulan Republic]

It definitely seems to be the case that force use smoothly and quickly without having to stop to concentrate is something that takes skill, power, and practice.

I'm agreed that most of those more-practice hands would beat her, even ones technically a fair bit less strong in the force like Asajj or Grievous- and I don't think she's at RotJ Luke level yet either. Above ESB Luke (she had more real-world combat experience to draw on, while Luke had little fight experience before gaining the force), but not that level.

I think Asajj could go either way, because the portrayal of her abilities varies so much. High-end Asajj would have a pretty good chance. Low-end Asajj, I think the edge might go to Rey.

Greivous... it would depend on how much he could surprise/rattle Rey going in, in part, although the fact that he can wield four sabers at once also might allow him to break through her defenses in a straight fight. But he's survived facing more experienced (if not more powerful) Force users- even killed some of them.

As to the Luke comparison... you might be right, but as I see it:

Training- RotJ Luke probably has a bit more (but not much, going off of what we see on-screen-probably just weeks at most). However, its spread out over a longer time period. I don't know if that makes it more or less effective. Then again, RotJ and ESB Luke have nearly equal levels of formal training.

Experience- Surviving on her own: almost certainly Rey. Professional military experience/command experience: hands down Luke. Experience in using the Force: again, hands-down Luke.

Raw Power- Giving this one to Rey, actually- I see her as an Anakin-peer, and likely another iteration of the "Chosen One", though I'll concede that I can't prove that definitively at this time.

Knowledge of Force techniques- They both use a range of typical standard techniques- mind tricks, small-scale TK outside of combat (now that I think of it, I don't actually recall OT Luke really using combat TK on-screen), sensing stuff, etc. Rey goes a bit further in the visions/mental communications departments (though how much of that is outside influence such as Snoke's is unclear). Luke uses Force choke, and seems more skilled at Force acrobatics. Rey is probably even more of a natural pilot, but less experienced. Fairly evenly-matched, overall.

Hand-to-Hand- I'm not an expert on fencing or martial arts, but I think they're about equal in skill.

Ability To Think Outside The Box/Improvise- Probably Luke, yeah. Though Rey isn't really bad at it- Luke is just a little better.

Knowledge of Galactic History/Politics- Neither of them strikes me as one of the brightest stars in the galaxy in this department, frankly.

Wisdom/Insightfulness/Persuasiveness- By ROTJ, Luke by far. I don't think Rey could have done what Luke did on the Second Death Star, sensing the good in Vader and redeeming him, though admittedly Luke had the advantage of his familial connection to Vader. This is where Luke takes the decisive lead.

In direct combat, though... pretty evenly-matched. Rey's greater power vs. Luke's greater experience.

I will note this is largely BS. Some authors seem to think so, but if Sidious didn't have a lightsaber in a couple of his fights, he'd be dead, no way he takes out the Jedi Arrest squad *that* fast with just lightning and TK, or the early parts of the Yoda fight. And that's just Sidious, let alone Dooku or other apprentices.

There's some truth to it- see his fight in The Clone Wars with Maul and Savage, where he pretty clearly has them at his mercy with just TK and lightning, and indulges in a saber duel for the heck of it-but you're probably right about his inability to hold off the whole Jedi hit squad. Then again, that's probably mostly due to Windu, who is one of the few individuals in the films who could be considered roughly a peer of Palpatine's, at least in direct combat. The others fell in seconds.

Not sure how the Yoda fight would have gone if it had been a pure Force fight, but again, Yoda is one of his few peers (more or less). And as we see in Attack of the Clones with Dooku and Yoda, sabers can act as a sort of "tie-breaker" between closely-matched Force users.

Edit: A summary of Rey at this point is that, while she's a, for lack of a better term, nicer person than such descriptions usually denote, as a combatant and a Jedi she's pretty much a blunt instrument at this point. A lot of power, not a lot of insight and finesse.

Which is actually arguably an inversion of traditional gender roles, interestingly enough, though I don't know if that's intentional. Usually you'd have the man having more physical power, and the woman being more "intuitive" or "insightful" or "wise". Then again, traditional gender bullshit would have the man being more intellectual as well, which Rey isn't, so you could see it either way, I guess.

[KraytKing]

Zixinus, I thought it was rather clear that i was criticizing the canon, not declaring what was on screen. I goddamn know that Palpatine and Yoda fight with lightsabers, I just prefer the version of Star Wars I grew up with, where they didn't. And I never said anything abut Yoda being arrogant -- just wise. Remember how one of his first lines is "Wars not make one great?" He was above combat for ideological reasons. They should never have come to fight each other. The old lesson of "less is more" went out the window, and you seem to have followed it.

[Zixinus]

In other words, your headcanon is best and I'm an idiot for not following it.

The idea that they have other people fight for them (while they themselves are still able) would mark them arrogant and even cowardly. Or what else did you think was the very idea that you have apprentices fight your battles?

When he confronted Doku, did you sincerely think he should have sent in some padawans to face him while he hung back? When Palpatine began to show his true self and order 66 came out, what was he supposed to do? Use the Wookies as body-shields while they dealt with the hostile clone-troopers? Yoda in particular was the grand-master of what is ancient order of warrior-monks, to consider himself "above" fighting would have been to consider himself as some sort of king or god or similar hubris. Because only they consider themselves "above" fighting, especially when they're warriors.

Palpatine should have been someone who fits your idea, that he was "above" fighting yet he wasn't. Why? Because this is Star Wars. Next you'll be asking for people not to fight in kung-fu films or for samurai films not to take out their swords.

[KraytKing]

You aren't being very imaginative. Have you ever seen a movie where there was the one master, wise but old, who could no longer fight? For fuck's sake, Kung Fu Panda did that right with Oogway. He was shown in flashbacks to be extremely skilled, but never did anything but impart wisdom in the current day. Knowing he was too old and infirm to fight, he passed on, exactly like Yoda did, to allow the apprentice to become the master. Yoda from the OT was the model for that, and he should have followed his own pattern in the prequels. He shouldn't have led clone troopers at all, for ideological reasons. And he most certainly shouldn't have tried to fight the Emperor and lost, but rather retreated to train the apprentice he knew would come.

When I mentioned an apprentice, I meant Anakin fighting for Palpatine. I didn't mean to suggest that Yoda should send young ones into battle in his stead.

[Abacus]

No such thing as a fair fight, and if it is a fair fight then it's just a sport.

[Zixinus]

You aren't being very imaginative.

No, I am not buying into the idea that your way is the superior way because your headcanon is more awesome and that I'm an idiot for not bowing to your imaginary superior scripting skills. Go fuck yourself.

Have you ever seen a movie where there was the one master, wise but old, who could no longer fight?

Here's where there is a crucial difference, which I actually noted: could not fight.

Yoda is obviously past his prime, but he still was able to put up a fight because maybe he wasn't THAT infirm. Sure, he walked about with a stick but given that we know nothing about his biology and was still limber even during non-combat situations (like when he went on his pilgrimage), doesn't mean much. Again, you take a supposition that supports your head-canon and decide that it's fact when it isn't.

Also, against Doku, you wouldn't have sent an apprentice if Yoda knew he was a Sith. Hell, the idea of sending even an actual knight of someone of Dooku's seniority and caliber is lunacy (even if he was not a Sith) when you still have a numerous Jedi Order. You send a master, or several masters (and maybe a Temple Guard if applicable, as they're experienced in handling rouge Jedi), to take down someone like Dooku. Or better, you send someone who knows Dooku inside and out and can counter any surprises he has in stock, like his teacher.

For fuck's sake, Kung Fu Panda did that right with Oogway. He was shown in flashbacks to be extremely skilled, but never did anything but impart wisdom in the current day. Knowing he was too old and infirm to fight, he passed on, exactly like Yoda did, to allow the apprentice to become the master. Yoda from the OT was the model for that, and he should have followed his own pattern in the prequels.

Oh, so you're whining that the authors deviated from an established trope. Oh boohoo.

No, seriously, go fuck yourself. Tropes are not strict rules you have to follow, they are free to be subverted and if anyone had the right to change Yoda's role, it is Lucas. Hell, there is also a trope of Badass Old Man who avoids combat and merely teaches, but still can kick ass when needed.

He shouldn't have led clone troopers at all, for ideological reasons.

He rarely actually did (Kashyyyk was an exception due to his history there). The first episode of Clone Wars, where he led a small squad? It was supposed to be a secret, diplomatic mission that gone very bad. Again, he was forced to fight rather than choose to fight.

And he most certainly shouldn't have tried to fight the Emperor and lost, but rather retreated to train the apprentice he knew would come.[/qoute]

Why the fuck not? He just saw the signs of a massacre, he saw his life work wiped away before his eyes and he learned that it was a singular cause in the form of the ancient enemy of the Jedi. A singular cause that he could fight and win over, if in a small window of opportunity. If he did, he could have saved the Jedi Order and the Republic (or at least give a chance for both to be salvaged). Not only was he duty-bound to fight the Sith as the Jedi do but he also knew what Sith rule looked like, and he had the power to avert that. It was a shot he had to take.

Even if Obi-Wan failed at stopping Anakin (and IIRC, it was Palpatine that saved Anakin), the Empire could not have been born without him. Sure Anakin-Vader would have made a mayor crisis and threat to the Jedi Order, but he lacked the political backing of Palpatine and would have been a renegade. Or maybe he could even have been saved, knowing the truth about his children and Padme.

Yoda failed. That does not make what he tried to do any less the right thing to do. He should have had help, maybe he should have had Obi-Wan with him against Palpatine but it was a severe emergency situation where he lacked comfortable choices.

When I mentioned an apprentice, I meant Anakin fighting for Palpatine. I didn't mean to suggest that Yoda should send young ones into battle in his stead.

An "apprentice" is a padawan in SW terms, you moron. They're the "young ones", initiates that finished their training but have no real-world experience. To send them against battle-droids was bad enough but against a Sith (or even a Jedi turned bad) is murderous incompetence. As for who would be appropriate, see above.

[Zixinus]

A mod please fix the typo in the code above.

Also: other old members of the Jedi Order were also pretty limber. Hell, Doku himself was an old man too but was hardly crippled. That Yoda was still limber hardly broke a trope.

[The Romulan Republic]

Jedi can use the Force to augment their physical abilities. IIRC, Yoda was said to a favor a particularly acrobatic lightsaber form which used a lot of Force leaps and such, in order to compensate for his age/small size.

[Batman]

Jedi MUST use the Force to augment their physical abilities unless we posit humans in the Wars universe are Spider-Man level strong and resilient, which raises the question of why don't we see that in any nonJedi?

[The Romulan Republic]

Jedi pretty clearly do have superhuman durability as part of the package (IIRC, Obi-wan and Anakin surviving the conditions on Mustafar has been cited as proof of this). Also, Leia seemed to have at least some resistance to being exposed to vacuum.

Edit: Not sure if its innate/automatic, or a power they have to deliberately use, though.

[Q99]

Jedi pretty clearly do have superhuman durability as part of the package (IIRC, Obi-wan and Anakin surviving the conditions on Mustafar has been cited as proof of this). Also, Leia seemed to have at least some resistance to being exposed to vacuum.

Edit: Not sure if its innate/automatic, or a power they have to deliberately use, though.

One piece of it requiring some use, if not much concentration, is the fact that when Anakin was finally beaten, *then* he caught on fire.

An "apprentice" is a padawan in SW terms, you moron. They're the "young ones", initiates that finished their training but have no real-world experience. To send them against battle-droids was bad enough but against a Sith (or even a Jedi turned bad) is murderous incompetence. As for who would be appropriate, see above.

Comment, Padawan is normally the level of 'ready for field work, but supervised.' So against battle droids is not unreasonable (if with a Knight present), but against a Sith is pretty irresponsible, yea.

[The Romulan Republic]

That's a good point, yes.

On the flip side, I doubt Leia had time to invoke that ability consciously before she got blown out into space.

[Q99]

That's a good point, yes.

On the flip side, I doubt Leia had time to invoke that ability consciously before she got blown out into space.

Vacuum isn't an instant thing anyway. As long as the lungs don't burst, you've got something like 15-20 seconds of consciousness, as I understand it.

[The Romulan Republic]

Wish there was some way we could calculate how long Leia was out there, but I'm pretty sure it was significantly more than 20 seconds.

Plus surviving the explosion itself.

[Zixinus]

An "apprentice" is a padawan in SW terms, you moron. They're the "young ones", initiates that finished their training but have no real-world experience. To send them against battle-droids was bad enough but against a Sith (or even a Jedi turned bad) is murderous incompetence. As for who would be appropriate, see above.

Comment, Padawan is normally the level of 'ready for field work, but supervised.' So against battle droids is not unreasonable (if with a Knight present), but against a Sith is pretty irresponsible, yea.

I didn't say it was utterly bad to send them against battle droids, but I can't help but find it problematic. Can you spell "child soldier"? Sure, they're uber-trained children under a monastic order of warrior-monks with superpowers but still, you are sending them to war. There is also the question of just how much training they had for war in particular as opposed to general Jedi duties. Also it wasn't quite clear just how much choice did they have in the matter.

[Elheru Aran]

Wish there was some way we could calculate how long Leia was out there, but I'm pretty sure it was significantly more than 20 seconds.

Plus surviving the explosion itself.

Movie's on Netflix. Pull up the stopwatch on your phone. Get to it.

[Knife]

I put Jango and an inquisitor. Who ever said 'raw power' about has it right IMO. She has enough juice to defeat most 'regular' humans. Her training is worse than Luke prior to Dagobah. Even after her 'training' with Luke, she's way below Luke on Dagobah. About even with what Luke got from Obi Wan on the Falcon, IE not much. But she is also the 'chosen' one of the new trilogy, she has a purpose, and no inquisitor (read half trained or weak jedi turned dark) is going to fuck up what ever the Force has cooking.

All the other ones I see either have same/more power along with same/more experience with a touch of same/more destiny going for them and could take Rey.

As an offshoot, I disagree that 'combat telekinesis' is the best power. ROTS novel goes into what happens with Obi Wan lets go in the force and becomes his environment. He's not reading his enemies minds, he is the ship, the robots, the weapons. Connecting with the Force on that level is a huge power, and I would say lead into the 'see into the future' bit and was blocked by the Shroud of the Dark Side.

[Q99]

I didn't say it was utterly bad to send them against battle droids, but I can't help but find it problematic. Can you spell "child soldier"? Sure, they're uber-trained children under a monastic order of warrior-monks with superpowers but still, you are sending them to war. There is also the question of just how much training they had for war in particular as opposed to general Jedi duties. Also it wasn't quite clear just how much choice did they have in the matter.

True, true.