Rey vs...: A discussion on effective use of the Force in combat.

[KraytKing]

Doesn't Jango have beskar? Rey would have difficulty hurting him at all without offensive telekinesis.

[The Romulan Republic]

Wish there was some way we could calculate how long Leia was out there, but I'm pretty sure it was significantly more than 20 seconds.

Plus surviving the explosion itself.

Movie's on Netflix. Pull up the stopwatch on your phone. Get to it.

I'm sure I could find the scene on Youtube in a couple of minutes. The problem is that film editing means that scenes rarely occur clearly in real time. At best, the scene would give us a lower limit, most likely.

I put Jango and an inquisitor. Who ever said 'raw power' about has it right IMO. She has enough juice to defeat most 'regular' humans. Her training is worse than Luke prior to Dagobah. Even after her 'training' with Luke, she's way below Luke on Dagobah. About even with what Luke got from Obi Wan on the Falcon, IE not much. But she is also the 'chosen' one of the new trilogy, she has a purpose, and no inquisitor (read half trained or weak jedi turned dark) is going to fuck up what ever the Force has cooking.

Agreed that her training is only about on par with post-ANH Luke. Maybe a little better, maybe a little worse. Partly that's on Luke not really wanting to or trying to teach her- his "lessons" were more about talking her out of being a Jedi, than making her one.

I do think she has more raw power than Luke, probably- certainly more ability to use it than ANH Luke. Rey strikes me as an Anakin-peer, and makes the best sense if you regard her as another iteration of the Chosen One.

All the other ones I see either have same/more power along with same/more experience with a touch of same/more destiny going for them and could take Rey.

Grievous, Maul, and Ventress have special destinies?

Heck, even Dooku didn't, really, though I still think he'd have a pretty good chance of killing Rey in a fight.

As an offshoot, I disagree that 'combat telekinesis' is the best power. ROTS novel goes into what happens with Obi Wan lets go in the force and becomes his environment. He's not reading his enemies minds, he is the ship, the robots, the weapons. Connecting with the Force on that level is a huge power, and I would say lead into the 'see into the future' bit and was blocked by the Shroud of the Dark Side.

My point is not so much that its the "best" power, but more that its one that is used often enough that one can discern a pattern, but rarely enough that its not commonplace, and that it pretty consistently just the best masters who can rely on it in battle.

Not the "best", no- the real power of the Force lies in its ability to enhance perceptions, influence minds, and transcend mortality, not in direct combat. But its a fairly good yardstick to measure who has that combination of power, skill, discipline, and experience.

[The Romulan Republic]

Doesn't Jango have beskar? Rey would have difficulty hurting him at all without offensive telekinesis.

Maybe, but that fancy armor didn't stop Windu from taking his head off.

[KraytKing]

That may have been a fluke. Some source or another states that Jango had foregone a gorget that day, preferring mobility and not knowing he would be fighting Jedi. If he had forewarning and was fighting an inexperienced user of the blade, stands to reason he would wear it.

Also, Mace is one of the most skilled duelists in the Order, and Jango had just been trampled by a fucking rhinoceros.

[The Romulan Republic]

That may have been a fluke. Some source or another states that Jango had foregone a gorget that day, preferring mobility and not knowing he would be fighting Jedi. If he had forewarning and was fighting an inexperienced user of the blade, stands to reason he would wear it.

Also, Mace is one of the most skilled duelists in the Order, and Jango had just been trampled by a fucking rhinoceros.

True. I'll have to re-evaulate Jango's chances if his armor can effectively stop a lightsaber blade.

But I still think the best he could hope for would be to escape alive like he did against Kenobi, most likely.

[KraytKing]

Alright. I would disagree, but I recognize that I am incredibly biased against Rey when it comes to judging her level of power.

[The Romulan Republic]

At least you recognize that you're biased.

And I, on the flip side, am probably a little over-defensive of Rey at times, largely because I feel the need to push back against what I feel is excessive criticism.

Though I don't really mind acknowledging that her powers are overrated, both because power levels mean very little to me in terms of what makes a good character, and because in my experience, its usually Rey's detractors who play up her powers the most, as evidence that she's a "Mary Sue". Her actual powers are... high end, for a newbie, but not nearly as strong as they're sometimes made out to be (with combat telekinesis being the most obvious example of that, hence this thread).

[Crazedwraith]

It's kind of difficult to estimate how effective or ineffective someone is because of the 'it controls your aspect' of the force and 'the will of the force' as Gandalf would be quick to remind they are magic space wizards and the force is magic space god. If it wants you to win, you win and if it doesn't you go down. Which is a bit of an overstatement but in essence true.

Take Rey vs Jango the 'weakest' opponent. We've not seen Rey display the kind of abilities to survive say, an onslaught of accurate blaster fire that Jango used to kill that one Jedi at short range, or the agility/speed to escape flamethrower or a missile blast radius quickly. But with a good connection to the force, it's possible/plausible that she might spontaneously develop those abilities at need/attempt. (like she did mind-tricks or massive TK in the film)

[Civil War Man]

You know, this discussion did get me thinking. I think one of the problems Star Wars is having right now is that the Force is basically a DBZ power level clown fiesta. Every single Jedi and Sith we spend any appreciable amount of time with is an exceptionally strong and powerful being who stands out among lesser Force users. As a result, the most growth we see from any of the Force-using protagonists is going from a super strong but untrained neophyte to a super strong and highly accomplished Jedi/Sith. As much as people credit TLJ for having Rey be the child of unimportant people, the whole sequel trilogy still falls into the same routine of making their primary force users once-in-a-generation wunderkind that have usually strong connections to the Force, just like what we see in the OT, PT, and most of the games with a Jedi protagonist (like Force Unleashed and KOTOR).

I think it would do Star Wars some good to have some stories where the primary Force user is a low to middling-level Jedi, someone who is not particularly strong, but is still able to succeed because they are able to exercise what strength they do have to their full potential. A protagonist who gets out of trouble through being clever, lucky, and resourceful because they are not strong enough in the Force to just brute force their way through it.

[Crazedwraith]

Need a new version of Legend's Tyria Sarkin.

[NeoGoomba]

You know, this discussion did get me thinking. I think one of the problems Star Wars is having right now is that the Force is basically a DBZ power level clown fiesta. Every single Jedi and Sith we spend any appreciable amount of time with is an exceptionally strong and powerful being who stands out among lesser Force users. As a result, the most growth we see from any of the Force-using protagonists is going from a super strong but untrained neophyte to a super strong and highly accomplished Jedi/Sith. As much as people credit TLJ for having Rey be the child of unimportant people, the whole sequel trilogy still falls into the same routine of making their primary force users once-in-a-generation wunderkind that have usually strong connections to the Force, just like what we see in the OT, PT, and most of the games with a Jedi protagonist (like Force Unleashed and KOTOR).

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I was actually hopeful during TFA because Ren and Rey seemed (for the most part) pretty clunky compared to the PT Jedi or Luke and Vader (you'd never see an average soldier with no Force ability lasting more than 5 seconds against prior Jedi like Finn did against Ren). Most of what they were able to do you could conceivably chalk up to just being in-shape people with some training. You know, except for the mind-reading bit and stopping the blaster bolt. There may be other examples, but I honestly can't remember, and I only saw TFA in theaters.

But they fell into the trap of Ren being of Chosen One lineage and Rey having no ceiling to her Scouter-level, so by the time we get to TLJ (A FEW DAYS LATER) they are both doing crazy shit.

At least Luke's big move wasn't just some super-kill attack, even though he did Piccolo himself.

[The Romulan Republic]

I do think there's a danger of them getting into constantly trying to one-up the previous films with new, even greater Force powers, though they have a long way to go before they overtake the old EU, particularly Dark Empire, New Jedi Order-era Luke, some of the ancient Sith, and the original Clone Wars shorts.

Agreed as well that its good Luke's last stand was not some gross display of physical power, and not just for that reason. I saw a lot of whining on-line (not here, I'm happy to say) from EU fan-types about how Luke should have been more powerful like in the EU, and it always irritated me because it came off as shallow internet tough-guyism that completely missed the point of who Luke is. Luke was never a great character or a great Jedi because he could blow up armies with the Force. He was great because of his character, compassion, and wisdom, and his ability to understand and reach his adversaries emotionally and psychologically. That's how he defeated the Empire, and that is how he went to face his final stand- not through a direct assault, but by playing on Kylo's emotional and psychological vulnerabilities in order to score a moral and symbolic victory. That was much more true to Luke's character than him walking out and destroying the First Order army in some superficially "bad ass" display of power would have been.

Say what you will about TLJ, Luke's last stand was damn near perfect for me as a Luke fan. Now that I think about it, a lot of my willingness to defend the film probably stems from that fact.

[FaxModem1]

I would disagree, in that Luke comes across as too bitter, his compassion seemingly burned out of him. The symbolic victory was telling his nephew that he was beyond helping, and trolling his sister about giving her her dead husband's dice via force projection a few days after she became a widow. That's bungled delivery of what they were trying to tell if the intent was an inspirational battle against Kylo Ren.

This is part of why the direction Rian Johnson wanted to take his character, regardless of the direction laid out in The Force Awakens, runs into issues with intent and delivery.

Observe:

Force Awakens:
Heroic wizard here to help

Last Jedi:
Corrupted wizard that fell off the path of good

In costume storytelling terms, Luke's days as a positive influence are behind him, and the heroes move on in spite of, not because of, his actions. It's a sad ending for Luke, barely atoning for his decades of apathy after considering nepoticide.

I think a better option would have been for Luke to be modeled a bit like Flynn in Tron Legacy, or King Bumi from Avatar the Last Airbender, hiding mostly because he wants to avoid causing the collateral damage that such a conflict would bring, and patiently waiting for the opportunity to act. Because unlike the Sith, the Empire, or even the Jedi of old, Luke cares about his actions unintentionally harming others, and wants to wait for the best opportunity to strike.

This could lead to Power creep of Luke's abilities, but it's preferable to a beloved hero turning against everything that he stood for.

[Civil War Man]

It's also troubling that Luke's depiction in TLJ makes him apathetic to the fate of his sister. He was so bitter and jaded that he was apparently willing to let Leia die without lifting a finger, all because he was disillusioned about the past failures of the Jedi. Refusing to train new Jedi and wanting to save his family from imminent mortal danger are not mutually exclusive concepts. And this is supposed to be the same person who was willing to forsake his training and go face-to-face with Darth Vader before he was ready because he could not sit idly by and let his friends be killed by the Empire.

But I digress. I'm okay with the idea of some Jedi being overpowered, and in the OT having all of the Force users be stupidly overpowered worked because there were so few of them left. The issue started with the EU and the PT taking what should have been the 99th percentile and turning it into the new mean, and the sequels appear to be content to continue that trend. When that goes on long enough, characters like Jango Fett, Grievous, and HK-47, hyper-competent mundanes who can go toe to toe with all but the most powerful Jedi, become more and more outlandish.

There was a recent episode of the Venture Brothers that I think is one of the best episodes of the show in a while. In it, the Monarch is tasked with mentoring a level 1 villain, with the Ventures mentoring Billy Quizboy and Pete White as the corresponding level 1 heroes. Since the show has recently been focusing on really high-level players, providing some context into what things are like for the really low level heroes/villains provides some nice context and reminds everyone that the Monarch, despite being a mid-level villain among super powerful villains, actually knows what he's doing.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think a more involved discussion of Luke's motivations and actions, and their meaning, would be best suited to a separate thread.

But I do think that subverting the power creep issue was a good move, and it happened to play nicely into an aspect of Luke's character (that he is someone who wins his greatest victories through non-violent means) that appeals to me.

[FaxModem1]

I think a more involved discussion of Luke's motivations and actions, and their meaning, would be best suited to a separate thread.

But I do think that subverting the power creep issue was a good move, and it happened to play nicely into an aspect of Luke's character (that he is someone who wins his greatest victories through non-violent means) that appeals to me.

Luke Skywalker's character evolution thread has been made here