Marvel fires Chuck Wendig to salve alt-reich

[Darth Winter]

Aftermuch trilogy is shit. Charters are stupid and not intresting. Also autor put a lot of gay characters just to put a lot gay characters. There is no other reasons. It looks so artificially so I start to think "gay propaganda" realy exist and my goverment (I from Russian Federation) was right with that law. Or mayby Chuck Wendig is just bed autor and he just construct more acceptable to himself explanation of his firing.

[Crazedwraith]

You are an idiot. You don't need a reason for gay characters.

[Galvatron]

I haven't read the comic, but I heard that Wendig also took a lot of flak for Darth Vader Annual 2: Technological Terror. Apparently, Wendig not only ignored elements from (the far superior author) Luceno's Catalyst, but also that Vader disliked the Death Star. But Wendig has also said to the effect that canon doesn't matter.

Well I HAVE read the comic and I don't see the problem with it. I read Catalyst too and I can't think of anything significant from it that Wendig "ignored."

[Darth Winter]

You are an idiot. You don't need a reason for gay characters.

Why? Most of good books and movies what I saw has gay character for plot reason. Random gay characters make everythig look like CW shows. I don't think this is reason of this show low quality. I think it one of symptoms of it bad quality. This is excuse for autor to accuse anyone who don't like books/movies in homophobia.

[Mange]

I haven't read the comic, but I heard that Wendig also took a lot of flak for Darth Vader Annual 2: Technological Terror. Apparently, Wendig not only ignored elements from (the far superior author) Luceno's Catalyst, but also that Vader disliked the Death Star. But Wendig has also said to the effect that canon doesn't matter.

Well I HAVE read the comic and I don't see the problem with it. I read Catalyst too and I can't think of anything significant from it that Wendig "ignored."

POTENTIAL SPOILERS. I have only read Catalyst (I don't read comics), but it's a big change. According to the comic, Lyra was warned about the Death Star whereas she was not in Catalyst. In the novel, nothing is mentioned about what the droid told Lyra or anything about Lyra being in distress or in a hurry as the comic apparently portrayed. The comic apparently also strongly implied that it was Vader who deliberately set in motion the events leading up to the destruction of the Death Star, despite that we see him defending it vigorously in combat in ANH. While he may have not liked the project, to infer that he actually took action to have the Death Star project sabotaged to some degree is a divergence.

Wendig answered a question about it on Twitter and later expanded on his view of canon Twitter.

[Crazedwraith]

You are an idiot. You don't need a reason for gay characters.

Why? Most of good books and movies what I saw has gay character for plot reason. Random gay characters make everythig look like CW shows. I don't think this is reason of this show low quality. I think it one of symptoms of it bad quality. This is excuse for autor to accuse anyone who don't like books/movies in homophobia.

The more pressing question is 'Why not?'. The why is because Gay people exist, there's no reason characters shouldn't be gay, and not having them pretends gay people doesn't exist. Which is morally wrong because as discussed they do.

If you think bad fiction has gay people in the solution is... more gay characters! Because by Sturgeon's law, 90% of everything is crap, so more gay people means more opportunities to be in good work.

Tell me is a man/woman love plot in a film 'hetrosexual propoganda'?

[Darth Winter]

Tell me is a man/woman love plot in a film 'hetrosexual propoganda'?

Blue sky is "oxygen-nitrogen propaganda"?

[Crazedwraith]

Tell me is a man/woman love plot in a film 'hetrosexual propoganda'?

Blue sky is "oxygen-nitrogen propaganda"?

There are a few other points you're not addressing there.

I will interpret that vague answer as 'no'. So if there's no such thing as heterosexual propaganda, why do you think homosexual propaganda is a thing?

[Galvatron]

POTENTIAL SPOILERS. I have only read Catalyst (I don't read comics), but it's a big change. According to the comic, Lyra was warned about the Death Star whereas she was not in Catalyst. In the novel, nothing is mentioned about what the droid told Lyra or anything about Lyra being in distress or in a hurry as the comic apparently portrayed.

I haven't read Catalyst since it was new, but wasn't Lyra already either suspicious or outright aware of the fact that she and Galen were under surveillance by Krennic while they were living on Coruscant?

The comic apparently also strongly implied that it was Vader who deliberately set in motion the events leading up to the destruction of the Death Star, despite that we see him defending it vigorously in combat in ANH. While he may have not liked the project, to infer that he actually took action to have the Death Star project sabotaged to some degree is a divergence.

Yes, some of us have already discussed that here. I see nothing wrong with it.

[Darth Winter]

Tell me is a man/woman love plot in a film 'hetrosexual propoganda'?

Blue sky is "oxygen-nitrogen propaganda"?

There are a few other points you're not addressing there.

I will interpret that vague answer as 'no'. So if there's no such thing as heterosexual propaganda, why do you think homosexual propaganda is a thing?

I do not say that. Any book, movie e.c.t. is propaganda of autor's views. And any autor, even if he do not want, promotes his views.

For examle The Lord of the Rings is pretty xenophobic book. All western races (human, elfs, dwarfs and hobbits) are default good. All eastern (orcs and others) are default bad. Not because it their choice, but because they are who they are. And this is common view of british man XIX-first half of XX century. I do not think Tolkien did it intentionally. He just a person of his time and country.

But in Chuck Wendig case I think he made so many gay characters for purpose. He use not his franchise to promote his views. And even Disney share his views they not hired him for this. They hired him to write replacement of Michael Stackpole's X-Wing books. And he screw it up.

[Imperial Overlord]

For examle The Lord of the Rings is pretty xenophobic book. All western races (human, elfs, dwarfs and hobbits) are default good. All eastern (orcs and others) are default bad. Not because it their choice, but because they are who they are. And this is common view of british man XIX-first half of XX century. I do not think Tolkien did it intentionally. He just a person of his time and country.

That's simply not true. Tolkien very deliberately made it clear that the Men of East weren't inherently evil. Although the Lord of the Rings doesn't dwell much on the points, it's also quite clear that both Rohan and Gondor are not blameless in their behavior. The Woses and the Dundelings have legitimate grievances and the Easterlings have a reasonable claim to disputed territories. One of Aragorn's significant achievements as king is the creation of just and long lasting peace with the Men of the East, not imposing his will on them or subduing them to the yoke of a "greater" race. Also Mordor is in the East, but orcs and trolls are everywhere.

Choose better examples.

[madd0ct0r]

For examle The Lord of the Rings is pretty xenophobic book. All western races (human, elfs, dwarfs and hobbits) are default good. All eastern (orcs and others) are default bad. Not because it their choice, but because they are who they are. And this is common view of british man XIX-first half of XX century. I do not think Tolkien did it intentionally. He just a person of his time and country.

That's simply not true. Tolkien very deliberately made it clear that the Men of East weren't inherently evil. Although the Lord of the Rings doesn't dwell much on the points, it's also quite clear that both Rohan and Gondor are not blameless in their behavior. The Woses and the Dundelings have legitimate grievances and the Easterlings have a reasonable claim to disputed territories. One of Aragorn's significant achievements as king is the creation of just and long lasting peace with the Men of the East, not imposing his will on them or subduing them to the yoke of a "greater" race. Also Mordor is in the East, but orcs and trolls are everywhere.

Choose better examples.

Men of the East aren't inherently evil becuase they are MEN in tolkiens mythology. But they do follow a corrupt and terrible god and come from the east riding elephants. The obvious implications are far heavier then any backpedalling in a single sentance. It's just the classic european map of fear and threats and dim folk legends of mongol hordes and later ottoman invasions. It's not as extreme as his pal CS Lewis's intentional depiction of hindu gods as lying blood drinking demons, but it does reflect the interest and prejudice of the British empire.

I think the comparison is fair, as Tolkien probably would say, if asked, that he didn't intend to represent other religions that way, any more then he thought comparing the dwarfs to the jewish diaspora cute instead of racist. He lives in a totally different social context to us now.

Where Darth Winter's logic falls down is that Darth is also living in a different context to Chuck Wendig. There's a general assumption in the west that gays 1) exist, 2) are ok and 3)have been under-represented, along with most minorities, in older media such as Star Wars. There's an implied 4) as the rebel alliance represents American individualism against soviet/Nazi hegemony, the world of the alliance should reflect current American values as the default good.

1977, 40 odd years, ago, when Star Wars came out(hah!), was also the year the United States Supreme Court ruled on wether homosexuality = immoral = cannot be a teacher. It was a big deal: "This was the first homosexual discrimination decision to be aired on national network news. In fact, it was simultaneously aired on all three national network evening news shows, reaching approximately 60 million viewers"
This is about the stage that Russia seems to have regressed to, if not further.


So for Darth, given his socio-historical context, it feels odd and noticeable to see gay characters, and feels like there are to many of them, mostly becuase he has no idea how many people are gay. it's the same effect as the below.

Geena Davis Institute for Gender In Media found that, in crowd scenes, women tend to comprise about 17 percent of any given crowd. She's argued, based on outside data and her own interpretations, that this imbalance relates to and reinforces the way men perceive the actual number of women in any given room.
“If there's 17 percent women, the men in the group think it's 50-50,” she told NPR. “And if there's 33 percent women, the men perceive that as there being more women in the room than men.”

Does Darth Winter ascribe Chuck's motivation correctly? I dunno. during roleplaying games, I roll dice to set things like that to stop my own bias distorting things. He'd probably be confused and upset by the number of gay characters in my gm crowds too.

[bilateralrope]

It looks so artificially so I start to think "gay propaganda" realy exist

Why is showing so many gay characters a bad thing ?
You call it propaganda. That is the start of an argument. On its own it's not going to convince anyone who is thinking about it. You still need to convince people that it is propaganda, then convince people that it's a problem.

Propaganda is all about sending a message. What message is being sent by having so many gay characters ?
Why is that message a problem ?

[Imperial Overlord]

Men of the East aren't inherently evil becuase they are MEN in tolkiens mythology. But they do follow a corrupt and terrible god and come from the east riding elephants. The obvious implications are far heavier then any backpedalling in a single sentance. It's just the classic european map of fear and threats and dim folk legends of mongol hordes and later ottoman invasions. It's not as extreme as his pal CS Lewis's intentional depiction of hindu gods as lying blood drinking demons, but it does reflect the interest and prejudice of the British empire.

I think the comparison is fair, as Tolkien probably would say, if asked, that he didn't intend to represent other religions that way, any more then he thought comparing the dwarfs to the jewish diaspora cute instead of racist. He lives in a totally different social context to us now.

It isn't one sentence. It's multiple incidents within the books, most powerfully Faramir's speculating mournfully over the bodies of Haradim what threats or lies compelled the dead to fight in Sauron's war. Sure the Easterlings worshiped an evil god, but Sauron had fooled other gods, Elves, and the great Western nation of Numenor in the past. Yeah Tolkien uses an East versus West set up, but he's also clear that the issue isn't that Easterners are evil its that Sauron has dominion over the East.

[The Romulan Republic]

Tolkien drew his inspiration primarily from the collective history of Western mythology and literature and history, with all its inherent biases. Tolkien fiercely rejected the notion that his work had any allegorical intent, but he was also pretty clearly a man of his times, and that is reflected, for example, in his depiction of easterners and southerners as a threat, and in his comparing the savage monsters of Mordor to the stereotypical appearance of other races, and his creation of a mythology built around the notion that certain races are innately more gifted than others.

That said, I think, from some of Tolkien's commentary, that he was an intelligent enough and decent enough man to be bothered by those biases (note his constant wrestling throughout his career with the question of what the orcs were, as the idea of Sauron or Morgoth being able to create an innately evil race reportedly clashed with his theology), and to understand intellectually and morally that racism was wrong. The whole bit on the Kin-strife (Gondor's civil war) in the Appendices is pretty much a take-that at the idea of fighting to preserve racial purity. His characterization of Eowyn, as well, has always struck me as strikingly empathetic toward the plight of a woman trapped against her will in the role society has assigned for her, even if he ultimately has her give up her warrior's ways and settle down with a husband. I always feel a tug of war in the subtext of Tolkien's work, a tension between the biases he was surrounded by and doubtless to some extent internalized, and the biases of the cultural tradition he was drawing on, and his own sense of morality (what Abraham Lincoln called the Better Angles of our Natures). I honestly feel like if Tolkien had been raised in a later time, he might have been a progressive.

[Tiriol]

Tolkien drew his inspiration primarily from the collective history of Western mythology and literature and history, with all its inherent biases. Tolkien fiercely rejected the notion that his work had any allegorical intent, but he was also pretty clearly a man of his times, and that is reflected, for example, in his depiction of easterners and southerners as a threat, and in his comparing the savage monsters of Mordor to the stereotypical appearance of other races, and his creation of a mythology built around the notion that certain races are innately more gifted than others.

That said, I think, from some of Tolkien's commentary, that he was an intelligent enough and decent enough man to be bothered by those biases (note his constant wrestling throughout his career with the question of what the orcs were, as the idea of Sauron or Morgoth being able to create an innately evil race reportedly clashed with his theology), and to understand intellectually and morally that racism was wrong. The whole bit on the Kin-strife (Gondor's civil war) in the Appendices is pretty much a take-that at the idea of fighting to preserve racial purity. His characterization of Eowyn, as well, has always struck me as strikingly empathetic toward the plight of a woman trapped against her will in the role society has assigned for her, even if he ultimately has her give up her warrior's ways and settle down with a husband. I always feel a tug of war in the subtext of Tolkien's work, a tension between the biases he was surrounded by and doubtless to some extent internalized, and the biases of the cultural tradition he was drawing on, and his own sense of morality (what Abraham Lincoln called the Better Angles of our Natures). I honestly feel like if Tolkien had been raised in a later time, he might have been a progressive.

Eowyn's case is not that she decided (or the writer decided) that she should settle down with a husband. It was about her understanding how self-destructive her chosen path had been - how self-destructive the entire worship of a warrior ideal and of a noble death was for the entire nation and people of Rohan. Tolkien very clearly disapproved of her being forced to be a caretaker just because she was a woman (Gandalf pointed this out to Eomer when he was at a loss to explain his sister's actions), but Tolkien very clearly also hated warfare (although, in tradition of Augustinus, understood that sometimes war is necessary to defend the good and just things in the world) and those who had raised the arts of war above all other arts and crafts. Compare Faramir to his brother Boromir and father Denethor and how they are portrayed.

Tolkien was, of course, a person of his own time. And the myths and legends he drew inspiration from had quite a lot of bias. But he was not a troglodyte or a racist in the way that the word is used today. If anything, Tolkien showed a lot more understanding for people different from his own ideals than people give him credit for and he also took a very dim view of British public and public figures who called for, for example, extermination of Germans or Germany.

[Darth Winter]

It looks so artificially so I start to think "gay propaganda" realy exist

Why is showing so many gay characters a bad thing ?
You call it propaganda. That is the start of an argument. On its own it's not going to convince anyone who is thinking about it. You still need to convince people that it is propaganda, then convince people that it's a problem.

Propaganda is all about sending a message. What message is being sent by having so many gay characters ?
Why is that message a problem ?

It bad because it look like yesterday boy who drunk himself to alcohol coma just because now he can bye alcohol legaly. Taboo topic not taboo animore so autor use this topic all the time just because a few years ago it was taboo. Now it maybe good for some people who remember homophobic laws e.c.t. And for them it mean somthing. They have they feeling of forbidden, but they know that it is not forbidden. And naturally they like it. It remind me "perestroika" time (late 80's in USSR) movies. Naked tittis and unnesesory vilance just because there is no ministery of culture commision who command to cut it off. Now this moments looks horrible.

For me Star Wars books it more monumental thing, that just one-time-reed books. So I don't like when autors put in it topic which popular only in these few years.

[Darth Winter]

Duble

[bilateralrope]

It bad because it look like yesterday boy who drunk himself to alcohol coma just because now he can bye alcohol legaly. Taboo topic not taboo animore so autor use this topic all the time just because a few years ago it was taboo. Now it maybe good for some people who remember homophobic laws e.c.t. And for them it mean somthing. They have they feeling of forbidden, but they know that it is not forbidden. And naturally they like it. It remind me "perestroika" time (late 80's in USSR) movies. Naked tittis and unnesesory vilance just because there is no ministery of culture commision who command to cut it off. Now this moments looks horrible.

For me Star Wars books it more monumental thing, that just one-time-reed books. So I don't like when autors put in it topic which popular only in these few years.

Yep. You're a homophobe. You want the gays to remain hidden. Which makes it easier for people to abuse them.

[Darth Winter]

Yep. You're a homophobe. You want the gays to remain hidden. Which makes it easier for people to abuse them.

We talking about books and movies. Not a real life. About fictional worlds what autors creates. How I can abuse fictional character?!

[madd0ct0r]

Yep. You're a homophobe. You want the gays to remain hidden. Which makes it easier for people to abuse them.

We talking about books and movies. Not a real life. About fictional worlds what autors creates. How I can abuse fictional character?!

…. top of page....

Aftermuch trilogy is shit. Charters are stupid and not intresting. Also autor put a lot of gay characters just to put a lot gay characters. There is no other reasons. It looks so artificially so I start to think "gay propaganda" realy exist and my goverment (I from Russian Federation) was right with that law.

Darth. how many gay characters are too many for you in a work of science-fiction?

[Darth Winter]

Del

[Darth Winter]

Delite

[Darth Winter]

Darth. how many gay characters are too many for you in a work of science-fiction?

Need as much as you need to the story. If we talk about Aftermach -- two. ISB agent and his ex.

[Darth Winter]

Duble