Aquaman (SPOILERS)

[FaxModem1]

Saw it last night. Rather enjoyed the film. They knew how to just run with the silliness of Atlantis and just embrace it. It finally looks like WB knows what they're doing with DC films.




Spoilers:

So, in the film, as a warning to the surface world, Ocean Master basically throws every bit of garbage in the oceans onto the beaches of the world, in addition to a lot of ships being washed onto shore as well. How long would that take to clean up?

[Gandalf]

I was just bored throughout. As a film it read like a wetter imitation of Black Panther. Amusingly, Ocean Master is a chain of fish and chip shops near where I used to live.

Also, was Ocean Master's plan to send garbage back to people supposed to make him look villainous?

[FaxModem1]

I was just bored throughout. As a film it read like a wetter imitation of Black Panther. Amusingly, Ocean Master is a chain of fish and chip shops near where I used to live.

Also, was Ocean Master's plan to send garbage back to people supposed to make him look villainous?

I think more that the villain has a point. Probably a douchebag way to do it when it floods several coastal cities and towns. Aquaman doesn't disagree about Man's pollution, he's just saying don't, you know, commit genocide over it.

[The Romulan Republic]

Saw it last night. Rather enjoyed the film. They knew how to just run with the silliness of Atlantis and just embrace it. It finally looks like WB knows what they're doing with DC films.




Spoilers:

So, in the film, as a warning to the surface world, Ocean Master basically throws every bit of garbage in the oceans onto the beaches of the world, in addition to a lot of ships being washed onto shore as well. How long would that take to clean up?

Pity the franchise has already been arguably irreparably tainted by Suicide Squad.

Generally, though, a pattern seems to be emerging: DC can do a decent stand-alone film, but can't manage a good team film.

Edit: well, I personally liked Batman v Superman*, but I know that it was not well-received by a lot of people.


* And every time I see that title, I imagine a legal drama where instead of trying to kill him, Bruce just sues Clark for the damage to Wayne properties. Is it weird that I legitimately want that movie?

[K. A. Pital]

I will quote an article because it has been quite eloquently put, in a way similar to what I would have said myself

The king of Atlantis, Orm, aka Ocean Master (Patrick Wilson), decides to return the filth. He creates giant tidal waves that crash across the planet and deposit reefs of sewage, refuse and warships on the world's beaches. We humans befouled nature; nature turns around and befouls us. That seems like justice.

“Aquaman” doesn't present it as justice, though. Orm is the villain of the movie, and he has all of the usual characteristics of villains — he's intolerant, conniving, violent and a lot less charismatic than the hero. And yet, despite director James Wan's best efforts, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that Orm is right. In cheering for Aquaman, we end up cheering for the destruction of our own planet.

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/a ... ncna950626

[Elheru Aran]

Saw this last night.

A refreshing tonal shift from the last few JL movies, though WW made steps in that direction at least with the opening scenes in Themsycira-- it's notably brighter and far more colorful than its predecessors. A positive development, I think. Though I still think Mera's bright red hair is an absolutely absurd and patently artificial shade, comic book accuracy notwithstanding.

They also did a pretty decent job of giving Black Manta and Ocean Master reasons to hate Aquaman, and even made the goofy manta costume somewhat reasonable. They did somewhat play up the whole goofy bro-dude side of Jason Momoa's character though, which I didn't really care for.

I have no idea how such massive oceanic civilizations could've remained secret from the surface world throughout at least the modern era, though. Granted there's that whole notion about not having mapped most of the ocean floor and all, but still. Like, wouldn't it be semi-common knowledge that sailing into the "Trench" area during night would be a Bad Idea given that Lovecraftian fish-man monsters will swarm your craft and eat you?

Also, how the hell are whales, sea turtles (some truly massive specimens of which we saw), and other air-breathing marine animals spending quite as much time underwater at such depths as they do in the movie? At least in the city of Atlantis, theoretically the Atlanteans could be creating some kind of air bubbles for these air-breathing animals to draw off, but it still seems like they wouldn't be able to sustain swimming at such depths for such a long time.

*counts on fingers* Atlantis, Xebel (which we actually didn't see, just its forces), the Deserter kingdom, the Fishermen, the Trench, the Brine and the Hidden Sea... yeah, I guess we actually saw all "Seven Kingdoms". Unless you discount the Trench as being merely a species of feral fish-man savages and the Deserters as being, well, extinct and not actually in the 'sea' anymore. Which by the way would have had to been like... I dunno, tens of millennia ago? At the very least that could give a lower limit to when Atlantis sank, if the Deserters dried up after that.

I'm also a bit unclear on where Aquaman's father's lighthouse is supposed to be. When he's visiting the aquarium as a child, IIRC it's noted that it's in Boston, so presumably the US Northeast, but Tom Curry is obviously a New Zealander (fitting the actor Temura Morrison) of Maori extraction who has brought up his son with some Maori traditions, notably ta-moko tattoos and IIRC they speak some Maori on occasion. People emigrate, I guess.

Though the tattoos bring up a bit of an absurd point... if Aquaman is effectively bulletproof because his body is able to cope with deep-sea pressures (and we're talking like -miles- deep), how the hell did they tattoo him?

Re deeper analysis of the movie: It's like Black Panther... if the story was about Killmonger, who wasn't actually a bad guy, and who actually ends up coming to appreciate his new kingdom and his origins, and actually wins at the end of the movie. So, nah. Not that much. Is it a pretty typical comic-book movie? Sure. Does it hit the typical tropes? I guess. Is it reasonably amusing, reasonably lively, and decently paced? Yep. Does it actually make you think? Not really, no; it could've worked a little harder on that, and while I don't think siding with Aquaman is siding with the surface world over the ocean population like Kapital proposes, I do think they could've said something about that as it all kind of got pushed to the side in favor of the traditional confrontation between good guy and bad guy.

But honestly if anybody ever followed comics they would understand that this is status quo for Aquaman. The Atlantean/undersea population has a very valid point about the surface world constantly polluting their environment and ravaging fish and marine mammal populations. Aquaman often enough takes their side in the comics-- Atlantis has gone to war against the surface a few times-- but the surface world pretty much never changes its ways or acknowledges the Atlantean population. Is it stupid and lamentable? Yeah. Absolutely. But without a paradigm shift in comic book publishing, you aren't really going to see it change anytime soon. And unless the DC-CU starts following the form of Marvel a little more in showing a world that actually changes (to some degree), that's unfortunately probably going to be the case with Aquaman's sequels as well.

Pretty solid movie though. Better than BvS or JL. Up there with Wonder Woman.

[GuppyShark]

Re: the Trenchers, my assumption is that they went after Arthur and Mera because they are Atlantians, and typically stay far away from the light of the surface.

[Crazedwraith]

Just saw it. Kinda silly and stupid but fun enough to watch once. I liked seeing aquaman with his dad and that the dad didn't die in the initial attack and likewise the father figure, mum and brother all survived. In fact only the little people and black manta's dad died which is unfortunate now I think about it.

Not sure it really flows from JL's Atlantis scenes very well and the character beats were a bit rushed. Like Aquaman learning about mercy.

As crude as it they 'could have just peed on it' made me laugh the most.

Fun but JL itself remains the only DCEU I wanted to buy on Dvd.

[Napoleon the Clown]

It had some pretty silly stuff to it, but I'll grant it's a fun movie. I did think " Aquaman could just point out that he's buddies with Superman, who could break Orm's trident with his eyeball." That's a drawback of there being a character on the level of Superman established as being part of the world. And Superman would definitely get involved if the Atlanteans declared war on the surface.

[Raw Shark]

Honestly, Aquaman has always struck me as not being especially significant, aside from the "is in charge of 3/4 of the world" thing, which should probably not be ignored. But I find the Robot Chicken sketch somewhat relevant. My favorite moment of his comes very firmly in Kingdom Come: "Fuck off. You want my help? I am carrying way more than half of this bullshit. I need eight tentacles to show you how much to fuck off, and he pretty much has most of outer space, and just... y'knowwhat I need a shot of rum right now."

[FaxModem1]

Honestly, Aquaman has always struck me as not being especially significant, aside from the "is in charge of 3/4 of the world" thing, which should probably not be ignored. But I find the Robot Chicken sketch somewhat relevant. My favorite moment of his comes very firmly in Kingdom Come: "Fuck off. You want my help? I am carrying way more than half of this bullshit. I need eight tentacles to show you how much to fuck off, and he pretty much has most of outer space, and just... y'knowwhat I need a shot of rum right now."

I think a lot of modern Aquaman interpretations include that. If you ever watched Justice League, this was his primary attitude towards the surface world, and only getting involved if it had anything to do with his domain.

[Crazedwraith]

I'm surprised it didn't explicitly end with Atlantis being revealed to the world and Arthur going to the UN thing because that seemed the natural endpoint of Arthur's bridge between worlds thing.

Instead it seemed like the conspiracy guy was still be treated like a conspiracy guy.

Maybe it will be addressed in a sequel though the way the DCEU is going that seems unlikely.

[Lost Soal]

I'm surprised it didn't explicitly end with Atlantis being revealed to the world and Arthur going to the UN thing because that seemed the natural endpoint of Arthur's bridge between worlds thing.

Instead it seemed like the conspiracy guy was still be treated like a conspiracy guy.

Maybe it will be addressed in a sequel though the way the DCEU is going that seems unlikely.

Well Aquaman has already made more than Justice League has and I'd be willing to bet the budget for this is less as well so a sequel is more likely.

[Crazedwraith]

Oh cool. I just not heard much buzz about it so I assume it was sinking.

TBF they'd have to work hard to spend as much money on it as JL, which would have been moderately successful if they hadn't spent so very much on it including the reshoots.

[Lost Soal]

Approx $822m vs $658m

[The Romulan Republic]

I would suggest that perhaps DC might do better to just focus on stand-alone films, with maybe brief cameos or minor links between each other, rather than full-blown team movies. Doing a good team movie is hard, and DC doesn't seem to be able to pull it off very successfully. Besides, Marvel already has mastered that kind of movie, and anything DC does will be measured (probably unfavorably) against Marvel. But DC has a better track record with stand-alones.

[Civil War Man]

I think DC should focus on standalone movies right now, but less out of a belief that they can't do team movies and more that the team movies don't work if they don't do the proper setup beforehand. One of the things the MCU did right was that Phase 1 were all standalone films with those brief cameos and minor links tying them together. It built the foundation that allowed them to pull off Avengers 1, and got people familiar enough with the characters and settings that they could do more ambitious crossovers going forward.

One of DC's major problems is that instead of going through that necessary prep work, they keep trying to jump forward to Phase 2 or 3 because Marvel got a head start on them, which makes it so they are forced to spend time introducing major characters during the crossover movie. Imagine how Avengers 1 would have turned out if Marvel waited until then to introduce us to Thor or Captain America. It would have been a train wreck.

Wonder Woman was a proper Phase 1-type movie. Aquaman may also be one, based on the reactions I've been hearing about it.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think DC should focus on standalone movies right now, but less out of a belief that they can't do team movies and more that the team movies don't work if they don't do the proper setup beforehand. One of the things the MCU did right was that Phase 1 were all standalone films with those brief cameos and minor links tying them together. It built the foundation that allowed them to pull off Avengers 1, and got people familiar enough with the characters and settings that they could do more ambitious crossovers going forward.

One of DC's major problems is that instead of going through that necessary prep work, they keep trying to jump forward to Phase 2 or 3 because Marvel got a head start on them, which makes it so they are forced to spend time introducing major characters during the crossover movie. Imagine how Avengers 1 would have turned out if Marvel waited until then to introduce us to Thor or Captain America. It would have been a train wreck.

Wonder Woman was a proper Phase 1-type movie. Aquaman may also be one, based on the reactions I've been hearing about it.

I actually strongly disagree with this. The fact that you used the words "a proper Phase 1-type movie" shows what the problem is- an assumption that because the Marvel model worked, it is the only right way to do things and all other team-up/crossover films must follow that model to succeed. That is neither true nor creatively healthy.

It is entirely possible to do a good team movie without doing a half-a-dozen stand alone "set-up" films first. You don't need a half-dozen movies to introduce your characters and setting and make them likeable, and new works that don't have a massive fan base behind them don't get that luxury.

But let's look at some specific examples:

X-men. The original X-men film was one of the first successes of the modern Superhero film era. It was a team movie, it managed to introduce its characters and world and tell a coherent, entertaining story in its first film, without doing separate set-up films for each X-man, and it was a commercial and critical success. Yes, it was somewhat Wolverine-centric, but Rogue, X, and Magneto also all got major roles, and Rogue and Magneto got real character development.

Or take an example from Marvel. Guardians of the Galaxy. The first film, when it was released, had virtually no connections with other Marvel films to that point. Yeah, some of the other Infinity Stones had appeared, but we hadn't learned much about them. Other than Thanos (and the Collector?) in a brief post-credits scene, none of the characters had been seen before. The film managed to introduce the Guardians individually, show how they got together, what their personalities were, and give at least three of them (Star Lord, Rocket, and Drax) some kind of character development, while telling a coherent story and introducing various factions. You could watch GotG without having seen any other Marvel film and understand and enjoy it, because its a team film that works without extensive set-up. Again, the primary focus was on a single character (Star Lord), but everyone got a chance to shine, and in my opinion you could have told the same basic story with Gamora as the protagonist with just a few tweaks.

So the problem with DC is not that they "didn't do the set-up". Its that they are in love with grimdark for the sake of grimdark, wrote their films by committee, and hired Zach Snyder.

[Crazedwraith]

JL did a fairly good job of getting us up to speed on the members we hadn't seen before quickly and giving them character moments and plot arcs. Flash and Cyborg's stuff works really well. Aquaman had very little though, which is why it's nice to see him get this stand alone now.

eta: It's BvS that really suffered from it. It should have been the DCEU's avengers in a way. With JL being the end of their phase 2 equivalent to follow the MCU analogy. They could have easily done a MoS sequel and a Batman stand alone to establish their grimdark bats before hitting BvS, Then again they could have done it better if they cut out nearly everything from BvS other than Bats and Supes instead of cramming it in all in there.

[Civil War Man]

I'm talking in the context of team movies as part of a cinematic universe setup, which I figured was a given considering that we were talking specifically about contrasting cinematic universes. Regarding your examples, X-men is a standalone series of more limited scope (as opposed to the MCU's decade-spanning narrative) that is not part of any crossovers, and Guardians didn't get made until the MCU was already well-established. And Guardian's plot, while mostly separate from the rest of the MCU on the surface, is a critical part of moving the MCU forward by furthering the Infinity Stone plot started in Captain America 1 and continued in Avengers 1 and Thor 2.

So yes, one of the DCEU's problems is absolutely that they did not do the setup, because they've been trying to ape the MCU cinematic universe structure without putting in the necessary steps that are needed to make that structure work.

[The Romulan Republic]

That seems somewhat a counterintuitive argument. "They're trying to follow the MCU structure, but they aren't following the MCU structure?" But I sort of see what you might mean- that they are trying to do a group of interconnected franchises without taking adequate time to build those connections.

I just don't feel that you need to do the stand-alones first. They totally could have opened with a Justice League movie, then done stand-alones to delve into each of the individual characters.

Really, though, I still kind of wish they had just used Nolan's Batman films as a springboard and set a Justice League franchise in that universe.

[Crazedwraith]

I'm no mod of course, so I can;t tell you do anything. But I did start up a 'how to do the DCEU properly' thread if you'd like to take this there.

[The Romulan Republic]

I noticed. Working on a reply now.

[FaxModem1]

Reminder, SPOILERS

So, for those who have seen it, what do you think will be the future of Ocean Master as a character, as they are clearly going in a different direction that Marvel's Black Panther or Thor, in that the villain and the hero could potentially make some form of agreement, or at least come to a sort of agree to disagree on the surface world?

[Elheru Aran]

One thing I'm moderately concerned about is that with Black Manta and Ocean Master, they've used -both- of Aquaman's iconic opponents in the same movie. Oh, he has plenty-- all the heroes do-- but those are the only two that can really carry their own weight outside the flagship Aquaman title. All the rest are either one-shots, gag villains from the Silver Age, dull brutes like King Shark, magicians (which is just kinda ludicrous unless played right), or corporate villain organizations. King Atlan returns in Geoff Johns' run as some kind of revenant rival to Aquaman. There's a group of fish-man villains created by Darkseid, the Deep Six, which could be a way to tie future movies back in to the greater plotline of Justice League vs. Darkseid, if DC bothers to pursue that in the sequels.

Ocean Master is in jail now (presumably) so it's certainly possible a rebel faction of Atlanteans could break him out in the sequel. Aquaman seemed to have overwhelming support at the end of the movie, but once the moment passes, much hay (seaweed?) can be made of the fact that he's not fully Atlantean and doesn't have that deep of a knowledge/understanding of their culture.