A-10 Wastes British Convoy

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-30 11:46pm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 44,00.html

'The Yank opened up. He had absolutely no regard for human life. He was a cowboy out on a jolly'
Patrick Barkham meets the "friendly fire" victims

THREE wounded British soldiers described
yesterday how they survived a terrifying attack by an American anti-tank aircraft that killed one of their troop and destroyed two armoured vehicles.

One of the survivors criticised the American pilot for showing “no regard for human life” and accused him of being a cowboy who had gone out on a jolly.

Another survivor said that he had stumbled out of the burning wreckage of his light tank and waved frantically to the pilot of the low-flying A10 to try to halt his “friendly fire” as he returned to attack again.

The blunder, 35 miles north of Basra, left one soldier missing, presumed dead, and another in intensive care on the hospital ship RFA Argus. A sixth Household Cavalry soldier escaped without injury when the two Scimitar light tanks were destroyed.

Lieutenant Alex MacEwen, 25, Lance Corporal of Horse Steven Gerrard, 33, and Trooper Chris Finney, 18, were flown home last night with shrapnel wounds and burns. Before leaving the Argus they spoke of their bewilderment and anger that, despite flying very low over their heads, the A10 pilot apparently failed to recognise the coalition identification markings on their British-made tanks. Another vehicle in the five- strong convoy patrolling the marshes near the meeting of the Euphrates and Shatt al-Arab rivers bore a large Union Jack.

“All this kit has been provided by the Americans. They’ve said if you put this kit on you won’t get shot,” LCoH Gerrard said from his hospital bed on the Argus. “We can identify a friendly vehicle from 1,500 metres, yet you’ve got an A10 with advanced technology and he can’t use a thermal sight to identify whether a tank is a friend or foe. It’s ridiculous.

“Combat is what I’ve been trained for. I can command my vehicle. I can keep it from being attacked. What I have not been trained to do is look over my shoulder to see whether an American is shooting at me.”

The two Scimitars, followed by two armoured engineers’ vehicles and another Scimitar light tank, were on a “recce” of a road northwest of al-Dayr, 25 miles north of Basra in southern Iraq, on Friday. After coming under fire from Iraqi artillery, they were instructed to investigate a shanty town when another light reconnaissance tank troop captured several white pick-up trucks laden with armed Iraqis.

Troop leader Lieutenant MacEwen — who now has special plastic bags tied round his hands to treat his burns — described how the convoy tensed, fearing an ambush, as they watched villagers waving white flags approach from behind a large bank.

“My heart started pounding,” he said. “You could see the white flags above the bank, but you didn’t know whether they had any intention of surrendering or ambushing us.”

LCoH Gerrard, the commander of the leading tank, described “frightened and curious” villagers waving white flags. “I stuck my hand up and waved at them. I could see they were frightened. I felt sorry for them.” Suddenly, LcoH Gerrard heard the distinctive, relentless roar of an A10’s anti-tank gunfire. “I will never forget that noise as long as I live. It is a noise I never want to hear again,” he said.

“There was no gap between the bullets. I heard it and I froze. The next thing I knew the turret was erupting with white light everywhere, heat and smoke. I didn’t even have time to close my eyes or blink. I don’t know why I’ve still got hair or eyebrows.

“I felt I was going to burn to death. I just shouted, ‘Reverse, reverse, reverse’. My headset had come off. My gunner was screaming, ‘Get out, get out.’ I was out of the turret in milliseconds. How I got out of that hole I don’t know. Then I saw the A10 coming again and I just ran.

“I’ll never forget that A10. He was about 50 metres off the ground. He circled, because he can turn on a ten-pence. He came back around. He was no more than 1,000 metres away when he started his attack run. He was about 500 metres away when he started firing.

“On the back of one of the engineers’ vehicles there was a Union Jack. It’s about 18 inches wide by about 12 inches. For him to fire his weapons I believe he had to look through his magnified optics. How he could not see that Union Jack I don’t know. It was like Platoon. I was stood there on a little bank 25 metres away from my tank waving.”

The front two Scimitars, packed with ammunition, grenades, rifle rounds and diesel tanks, exploded into flames. Lance Corporal of Horse Matty Hull, 25, did not escape.

Trooper Finney was injured when the A10 returned for a second run. He said: “The plane came over again and it started shooting. I saw sparks coming from the ground or my leg. It didn’t hurt, it felt like someone had kicked me in the back of my leg. I felt warm down the back of my leg. Blood was spurting everywhere. I thought I was dead.”

LCoH Gerrard criticised the A10 for shooting when there were civilians so close to the tanks. He said: “There was a boy of about 12 years old. He was no more than 20 metres away when the Yank opened up. There were all these civilians around. He had absolutely no regard for human life. I believe he was a cowboy.

“There were four or five that I noticed earlier and this one had broken off and was on his own when he attacked us. He’d just gone out on a jolly.

“ I’m curious about what’s going to happen to the pilot. He’s killed one of my friends and he’s killed him on the second run.”

Lieutenant MacEwen described how he saw the A10 return after he stumbled, burning, from his flaming tank and ran for the cover of a reed bed on the marshes. “There was a horrible smell of what I though was something burning, but then I discovered it was a bit of my own eyebrows. That lingered with me for a good hour or two.”

He added: “After this I am quite pleased to be going home. ‘Blue-on-blue’ has always been one of my biggest fears. It is something that my friends and family joked about. ‘Don’t worry about the Iraqis, it’s the Americans you want to watch.’ The proof is in the pudding really.”

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-30 11:52pm

Unfortunate that this happened, its not the first friendly fire to befall the British in this war. The A-10 however has no thermal sight and the Maverick trick wouldn't be an issue in a strafing attack.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-03-30 11:52pm

*groan* Oh no.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-03-30 11:53pm

That sound you can hear now is my head banging into the wall, repeatedly.

I hope that pilot is fucking well shot for his incompetence.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-03-31 12:04am

Typical mongolian cluster-fuck.

and people wonder why war really worries me.

we have too much going on too quickly, for folks to know what's going on, and with the addrenalyn pumping people get killed.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-03-31 12:07am

You know that sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-31 12:12am

Some of the honoured representatives of the American military on this board have admitted in the past that they could spend more time training their personnel on friend-or-foe identification. I think the events of this war are demonstrating that.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-03-31 12:18am

This is a British Army Scimitar light tank.

This is a T-55.

This is a BMP.

Please, can someone tell me how this was mis-identified?

Companion Cube · Post by **Companion Cube** » 2003-03-31 01:34am

weemadando wrote:That sound you can hear now is my head banging into the wall, repeatedly.

I hope that pilot is fucking well shot for his incompetence.

*Sees weemadando banging his head against the wall*

*Joins him*

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-03-31 01:45am

This isa ongoing problem with the Americans. I shall relate to you a true story from WW2.
Both the Brits and the Yanks had night fighters, the Brits used the Mosquito the Yanks were in Bearcats..it think. Any how, the Brits were taking some losses in areas that there was no German AAA or fighter activity, and one day a Mozzie pilot comes home saying a Yank shot at him. The Brits complain and the Americans say it wont happen again, they will work on their rcongnition skills.
The shoot downs kept happening so one day some American nightfighters went out and did not come back. All mozzies came back and the shoot downs stopped.
How do I know this? I work in a Heritiage park that has a stong WW2 fighter section and a lot of ex pilots and ground crew come through to visit, We even have a Mosquito {and a Hudson bomber, one of only 9 left} its amazing what you hear.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-03-31 02:33am

During the Hedge Row campaign we also bombed and straffed a Joint US/Brit as per the History Channel.

Sam Or I · Post by **Sam Or I** » 2003-03-31 03:07am

WWII is a bad example, the US lost almost 25% of its troops (in the european front) to allied (mostly british) artilary fire.

Sam Or I · Post by **Sam Or I** » 2003-03-31 03:08am

But anyways Americans need to be more careful with their friends me thinks.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-03-31 04:01am

Sam Or I wrote:WWII is a bad example, the US lost almost 25% of its troops (in the european front) to allied (mostly british) artilary fire.

Brits getting revenge for Italy?
Seriouslt in this day and age things should be a bit better.

Sam Or I · Post by **Sam Or I** » 2003-03-31 05:10am

I agree. I was just pointing out that WWII there were lots of FF on everyside. The Gulf War US force caused alot of FF on the Brits as well. It should stop.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-03-31 05:14am

Sam Or I wrote:I agree. I was just pointing out that WWII there were lots of FF on everyside. The Gulf War US force caused alot of FF on the Brits as well. It should stop.

Indeed. I know that it has almost never hapened here in NZ or in Aussie {except when the carrier HMAS Melbourne rammed a few Aussie destroyers

} I wonder what other western nations records are like on freindly fire in war and peace?

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-31 05:21am

It really is easy to misidentify things - even things as completely different as a Scimitar and a BMP or T-55 - in the heat of battle. Imagine a guy pumped up on caffeine and sugar and running repeated sorties to the ragged edge of his toleration, with perhaps two or three hours of last in the past fourty, handling sensitive electronics and at the same time flying an airplane at relatively high speed, low-level. He's told by his controllers that what he's attacking is the enemy - So he thinks it is, the bias in his mind is fixed to think "that's the enemy".

Then when he scans it he has to realize it isn't. There's exhaust, perhaps the vehicles are moving, even if they aren't, he is, the image he gets is hardly stable. He tries to discern what it is and through the haze of his mind it fits into the preconceived notion that it's enemy. He'd better shoot; he might have comrades down there in danger from it, after all. And that's that. Most friendly-fire incidents are like that and not the result of anything sinister. They're just another price of war.

Post by **Edi** » 2003-03-31 05:45am

If the pilots are run that ragged, it's just one more for the US command. They have no place flying missions in that condition because afaik there is no need to run them to the ground when you're winning anyway.

Edi

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-31 06:24am

Edi wrote:If the pilots are run that ragged, it's just one more for the US command. They have no place flying missions in that condition because afaik there is no need to run them to the ground when you're winning anyway.

Edi

You didn't know that American pilots are given illicit drugs on some long-range missions? That's how ragged we run our Air Force, and it's part of why we win wars. There's a price that comes with it, though.

Post by **Edi** » 2003-03-31 06:29am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: You didn't know that American pilots are given illicit drugs on some long-range missions? That's how ragged we run our Air Force, and it's part of why we win wars. There's a price that comes with it, though.

I actually do know that. However, I don't think it has much to do with why you win wars. You've enough firepower to defeat any conventional military in the world even without abusing them to such a degree. It seems to have a lot to do with how many friendly fire casualties your Air Force causes, though, this price you mentioned. All well and good, if you don't happen to be on the receiving end. If it happens a few more times, maybe the Brits should start looking at the solution from WW2 Stuart related so somebody would finally notice?

Edi

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-31 06:34am

Edi wrote: I actually do know that. However, I don't think it has much to do with why you win wars. You've enough firepower to defeat any conventional military in the world even without abusing them to such a degree. It seems to have a lot to do with how many friendly fire casualties your Air Force causes, though, this price you mentioned. All well and good, if you don't happen to be on the receiving end. If it happens a few more times, maybe the Brits should start looking at the solution from WW2 Stuart related so somebody would finally notice?

Edi

Firepower isn't all about it - It also has to do with our training, organization, and the willingness of our personnel to go all out for something they believe in. Including risking themselves like that. Train as you fight, fight as you train. It's as old as Josephus' famous quote. If we do have casualties from friendly fire - Does it matter, if our casualties from enemy fire are virtually nil? They're simply the price to be paid for that sort of capability.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-03-31 06:37am

Not again...

Fucking trigger happy incompotent Yankeez

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-03-31 06:42am

it is awfully easy for us to sit here and pick apart over a period of hours what happened in the span of a few seconds on the battlefield. this kind of thing has always happened in warfare, and it will continue to happen. I know that's not a lousy excuse for what happened, but thats why we need to make sure we are right in our actions before we commit to them. hopefully, the ends will justify the means.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-03-31 06:45am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Edi wrote: I actually do know that. However, I don't think it has much to do with why you win wars. You've enough firepower to defeat any conventional military in the world even without abusing them to such a degree. It seems to have a lot to do with how many friendly fire casualties your Air Force causes, though, this price you mentioned. All well and good, if you don't happen to be on the receiving end. If it happens a few more times, maybe the Brits should start looking at the solution from WW2 Stuart related so somebody would finally notice?

Edi
Firepower isn't all about it - It also has to do with our training, organization, and the willingness of our personnel to go all out for something they believe in. Including risking themselves like that. Train as you fight, fight as you train. It's as old as Josephus' famous quote. If we do have casualties from friendly fire - Does it matter, if our casualties from enemy fire are virtually nil? They're simply the price to be paid for that sort of capability.

What we are saying is that that price is a ripoff, and is unwarrented. There is enough tech about so that it should not happen as much as it seems to, and always with the Americans.
As I said earlier, I wonder what the FF rate is with other western nations? does it happen much? or is it just not reported?

Post by **Edi** » 2003-03-31 06:48am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Firepower isn't all about it - It also has to do with our training, organization, and the willingness of our personnel to go all out for something they believe in. Including risking themselves like that. Train as you fight, fight as you train. It's as old as Josephus' famous quote. If we do have casualties from friendly fire - Does it matter, if our casualties from enemy fire are virtually nil? They're simply the price to be paid for that sort of capability.

This bullshit is almost not worthy of commenting, really. Yes, you do have well-trained, well-organized and willing personnel who have motivation. Those alone can do a lot, so why the hell risk them unnecessarily? As for the comment of who cares and that's just the price, let's just say if some Finn civvie who'd never been in the army said something like that, I'd kick the shit out of him (or her). Sure, I was in the army to defend their right to spout shit like that, but it doesn't mean they get to say that shit without consequences (just as my kicking the shit out of them has consequences to me as well). But here you're just being fucking offensive to those who actually serve and are required to risk their lives. On this score I actually know a lot better than you do what exactly you're talking about.

Edi