Brexit and General UK politics thread

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EnterpriseSovereign
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Crazedwraith wrote: 2018-12-18 02:28pm
EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2018-12-18 02:26pm
Crazedwraith wrote: 2018-12-18 02:14pm Has he? A quick google reveals nothing other than 'continues to dodge the question' and that said “I will decide it on the circumstances of it at the time.” Linka
‘No deterrent’ Jeremy Corbyn’s nuclear weapons policy LAMBASTED on BBC Question Time.
Yes, that's exactly what my link talks about.

Also Jeremy Corbyn says nothing in that link. He's not in it! It's about Labour as a party supporting nuclear weapons.

A member of the public saying what he thinks Jeremy Corbyn has said is not JC's declared policy is it?
Can Corbyn change the official party policy or does he need the majority of Labour behind him to do that? His actions have very much been anti-nuclear, case in point being to vote against Trident's renewal.

Link.
Corbyn, the Labour leader, responded to May by making the case for nuclear disarmament, pointing out that the party’s pro-Trident position was under review.

He gave his MPs a free vote during Labour’s ongoing defence review, which the Guardian understands involves at least five options ranging from complete replacement to disarmament by the 2030s. The three other options are reduced patrols and fewer submarines, missiles carried by aircraft, and adapted submarines to carry both conventional and nuclear warheads.

...

“What is the threat we are facing that one million people’s deaths would actually deter?” he said, adding it did not stop Islamic State, Saddam Hussein’s atrocities, war crimes in the Balkans or genocide in Rwanda.

“I make it clear today I would not take a decision that kills millions of innocent people,” Corbyn told MPs. “I do not believe the threat of mass murder is a legitimate way to deal with international relations.”
It would be interesting to see how the vote would have gone had it been held after President Pussygrabber took office with his MURICA FIRST! attitude. I don't know if Corbyn's position has shifted since that vote seeing as Trump can't be relied on to protect American allies the same way his predecessors would.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Crazedwraith »

That's actually a definite direct quote from Corbyn that he wouldn't. So I concede the point.

That is from 2016 and later quotes are more vague, obviously damage control when the election campaign was underway.

The lastest thing I could see on this where McDonnell says Corbyn would seek parliamentary approval for nuclear weapons use which seems kind of stupid in a situation were an instant decision might be required.

Personally I consider his dislike of nuclear weapons and mass murder morally admirable, though global disarmament while again admirable seems a quite quixotic idea.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

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EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2018-12-18 02:26pm
Crazedwraith wrote: 2018-12-18 02:14pm Has he? A quick google reveals nothing other than 'continues to dodge the question' and that said “I will decide it on the circumstances of it at the time.” Linka
‘No deterrent’ Jeremy Corbyn’s nuclear weapons policy LAMBASTED on BBC Question Time.
This was the show that gave us "wall of gammon" for jowly angry older men left behind by the progressive future.

I do care far more about policies that apply the 100% of the time we're not at nuclear war though.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

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John Oliver's latest take on the ongoing death of the United Kingdom (warning: contains Bigfoot erotica):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdHmp5EX5be
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-12-23 06:49pm John Oliver's latest take on the ongoing death of the United Kingdom (warning: contains Bigfoot erotica):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdHmp5EX5be
"Video unavailable". :P
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by The Romulan Republic »

EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2018-12-23 09:17pm
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-12-23 06:49pm John Oliver's latest take on the ongoing death of the United Kingdom (warning: contains Bigfoot erotica):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdHmp5EX5be
"Video unavailable". :P
Sigh... I really need to remember to check my links after I post them.

Thanks Dominus Atheos.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Crazedwraith »

Hard to know where to start. But what do we think of the latest quote-unquote drama from parliament over brexit?

Deal is still likely to fail and now May will have to have plan B ready in 3 days, with everyone on all signs able to table amendments for their own agendas. The possibility of ruling out No=Deal is the big one on the news at the moment.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

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Corbyn likely to call no-confidence vote after expected failure of May's latest Brexit deal:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... government
Labour MPs have been told to prepare for Jeremy Corbyn to table a dramatic and immediate vote of no confidence in Theresa May’s government as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a general election if – as expected – she suffers a heavy defeat this week on her Brexit deal.

Messages have been sent to Labour MPs, even those who are unwell, to ensure their presence both for the “meaningful vote” on the prime minister’s Brexit blueprint on Tuesday and the following day. Labour whips have told MPs the no-confidence vote is likely to be tabled within hours of a government loss, with the actual vote taking place on Wednesday.

The news comes before what promises to be one of the most tumultuous 24 hours in recent parliamentary history in which, barring another delay, May will put her Brexit deal to parliament despite deep and widespread opposition across the Commons, including from many MPs inside her own party.


A senior shadow cabinet member said: “There is now recognition that we cannot wait any longer. If May goes down to defeat and she does not resign and call an election, this is the moment we have to act.”


Senior Tories said on Saturday that they could not see how the prime minister could win the meaningful vote “in any circumstances” and that a defeat by less than 100 would now be regarded as the best she could hope for.

But even if she suffered a loss of closer to 200, which many Tories fear could be the case, Conservative MPs and ministers still expect her to stagger on and seek to bring an improved offer back to the Commons for a further vote within weeks.

Although senior Labour figures accept they are unlikely to win a no-confidence vote, as the 10 Democratic Unionist MPs have said they will back the government, the move will highlight the fragility of May’s hold on power as the Brexit crisis deepens.

Yet should Corbyn fail to force an election, it will place the Labour leader under greater pressure from many of his own MPs, as well as party members and supporters, to throw his weight behind a second referendum as the way to break the Brexit impasse.

Labour’s current policy is to seek to force an election, and if it wins, to renegotiate a new Brexit deal. Senior shadow cabinet figures said any further delay in tabling a no-confidence motion will make that position untenable, as there will be insufficient time before Britain’s exit from the EU on 29 March to hold an election.

The Observer understands that if Corbyn were to delay tabling a vote of no confidence, senior Labour MPs would table one themselves in the hope of forcing the leadership to back a second referendum. Angela Smith, Labour MP for Penistone and Stocksbridge, said: “The time for prevarication is over. If May’s deal fails we have to test the will of the house and if we fail, we must consider all options including campaigning for a second referendum as this is party policy.”

A Labour spokesman, while not confirming a vote on Tuesday, said that while the timing of a no-confidence vote had not been fixed, MPs had been told to be ready. Barry Gardiner, the shadow trade minister, said last week that a vote of no confidence would “obviously” have to follow immediately after a defeat for May’s deal.

A Momentum activist, Michael Chessum, spokesman for the leftwing anti-Brexit campaign Another Europe is Possible, said that if Labour won the confidence vote, it would be time for Corbyn to back a second referendum as part of the Labour manifesto. If it lost, it should campaign for one as the official opposition.


He said: “Proposing a no-confidence motion is the first step for either scenario, and we need to get on with it.” Labour campaigners for a second referendum claim that the party’s policy forum has received more than 13,000 emails and letters urging Corbyn to oppose Brexit.

Roy Hattersley, the Labour grandee, says the British people should have a vote on Theresa May’s deal. Photograph: Murdo Macleod for the Guardian
Writing in the Observer, London’s Labour mayor, Sadiq Khan said that he will step up his campaign for another referendum if an election is not called immediately: “A public vote would not only allow us to move beyond the current stalemate but would actually start the desperately needed process of healing the deep divisions that have opened within our society.”

Roy Hattersley, the veteran Labour politician, also threw his weight behind a second referendum on Saturday, saying the British people had “a right to cast a vote on the merits” of May’s deal.

Meanwhile, pro-remain cabinet ministers are preparing to push for a softer Brexit this week. In the event of a defeat for May, they are poised to back a plan B that would prevent Britain from signing its own trade deals.

It is understood some believe that joining a permanent customs union with the EU could be enough to secure a Commons majority for May’s deal. This could be one option put forward in a series of indicative votes to test the views of MPs on alternatives if her plan is thrown out. Such a move would potentially attract a bloc of Labour MPs.

With a critical week ahead, Tory rebels are already plotting a series of measures designed to hand more power to parliament over Brexit. One senior figure said that a “legally copper-bottomed” plan had already been drawn up to “give parliament control of the Brexit negotiation and stop a no-deal Brexit” should May’s deal be voted down.

A vote to show there is a Commons majority in favour of delaying Brexit is also being plotted by a cross-party group of MPs. “If we are not crashing out and we are not going for the PM’s deal, I cannot believe that article 50 does not have to be extended,” said one of those involved.

The business secretary, Greg Clark, also writing in the Observer, has appealed to pro-Brexit Labour MPs to back May’s deal, insisting that the government would protect workers’ rights when the UK is outside the EU. He pledged to back an amendment proposed by Labour MPs on the issue.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

The most worrying thing is not only is the ship headed straight for the rocks, but that the Brexit Bunch is going full speed ahead. Then we clamour to rejoin, which is the equivalent of backing off of the submerged mountain peak we've just discovered with our bottom, thereby sinking in two miles of water.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

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Its hard to believe that a government could undermine their country this thoroughly without intending to do so.
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"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

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The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-01-14 06:03pmIts hard to believe that a government could undermine their country this thoroughly without intending to do so.
Tempting as it might be to ascribe these events to malign outside influences, this is really just the culmination of a long process of institutionalised anti-intellectualism, wilful disregard for the human cost of policy decisions and good old-fashioned bigotry.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

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The vote on the Brexit bill happens tonight, who knows what will happen next.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

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Its been defeated exceptionally badly. Government as a confidence vote tomorrow.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

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EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2019-01-15 01:32pm The vote on the Brexit bill happens tonight, who knows what will happen next.
A goddamn evisceration, that's what.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46885828
BBC News wrote:Prime Minister Theresa May's Brexit deal has been rejected by 230 votes - the largest defeat for a sitting government in history.

MPs voted by 432 votes to 202 to reject the deal, which sets out the terms of Britain's exit from the EU on 29 March.

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has now tabled a vote of no confidence in the government, which could trigger a general election.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Crazedwraith »

I reckon the government will get past the confidence vote. The Tories will probably see staying in power as the best option. I think the DUP have said they're on-board as well.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by The Romulan Republic »

How many Tories or DUP members would have to defect to trigger an election?
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

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Not many IIRC, the Tories don't have a majority, they need the DUP for that, and there's only a few of the DUP guys in Parliament, less than twenty I think.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Enigma »

What about the chance of no Brexit happening?
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

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Enigma wrote: 2019-01-15 04:33pm What about the chance of no Brexit happening?
That would require the EU to allow such a thing to happen and, as far as I know, there is no framework within the current EU rules that would allow for such an exception at this late hour.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Crazedwraith »

Jub wrote: 2019-01-15 04:40pm
Enigma wrote: 2019-01-15 04:33pm What about the chance of no Brexit happening?
That would require the EU to allow such a thing to happen and, as far as I know, there is no framework within the current EU rules that would allow for such an exception at this late hour.
Actually the Europeans Court has said we can take back Article 50 at any point before it comes into force and everything would continue as before.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

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Crazedwraith wrote: 2019-01-15 04:42pmActually the Europeans Court has said we can take back Article 50 at any point before it comes into force and everything would continue as before.
Then how has that not been the first and only option explored thus far? It's clear to literally everybody, including the current sitting government, that leaving is a disaster.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

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Jub wrote: 2019-01-15 04:48pm
Crazedwraith wrote: 2019-01-15 04:42pmActually the Europeans Court has said we can take back Article 50 at any point before it comes into force and everything would continue as before.
Then how has that not been the first and only option explored thus far? It's clear to literally everybody, including the current sitting government, that leaving is a disaster.
Er... what? That is not clear to everyone. Brexit won the referendum and still has substantial support among MPs and the general public. Anyone suggesting taking back Article 50 is promptly branded as anti-democratic and as being against the will of the people.

The problem is no one can decide exactly what Brexit means, so it's all factionalised into many different options with no clear winner. May's deal went down because it was too hard for remainers and too soft for brexiteers.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

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Jub wrote: 2019-01-15 04:48pmThen how has that not been the first and only option explored thus far?
Because the ECJ also said that withdrawing Article 50 can only be done if the UK decides it's not leaving after all, not as part of a game of cat and mouse. Since this would be directly counter to the direct instruction parliament was given two and a half years ago, and to the manifestos both the main parties were elected on a year and a half ago, doing so would be a good way to inflict massive and irreparable damage on trust in democracy in this country.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Yeah, Parliament voting to withdraw Article 50 would most likely torpedo both the Tories and Labour's chances in any election. We'd wind up with an even more hung parliament at best. Too many MP's and the two largest parties have staked too much on making Brexit happen and work - never mind that whatever the outcome is a significant fraction of the voters will be deeply unhappy with it.
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