Reports of Chechen authorities order families to kill LGBT relatives/pay ransoms for the release of LGBT family members.

[The Romulan Republic]

https://www.thedailybeast.com/activists ... ref=scroll

Russian campaigners have told The Daily Beast that Chechen authorities have ordered people to kill LGBT members of their own families, and have demanded ransoms for the release of detained LGBT relatives.

According to reports, at least 40 people have been arrested in the last two to three weeks, many of them tortured, in a new crackdown against LGBT people in Chechnya. Two gay men have reportedly died following torture.

“Chechen authorities demanded that relatives punish their gay family members by executing them,” one of the St. Petersburg volunteers for the Russian LGBT Network, who did not wish to be named, told The Daily Beast. “Several people who managed to escape have been raped with police clubs and tortured with electricity.”

The detentions were reportedly carried out by law enforcement officers in the southern city of Argun.

AGAIN
2 Killed, 40 Detained in New Gay Purge in Chechnya: Report


Alvi Karimov, spokesman for Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov, told reporters Monday the reports are “complete lies and don’t have an ounce of truth in them.”

Svetlana Gannushkina, a prominent human rights defender, told The Daily Beast that on a recent afternoon she had received phone calls from a Chechen family, asking her to help an arrested male relative.

Gannushkina is a former member of the presidential Council of Civil Society and Human Rights in Moscow. “People in Chechnya believe that I can make a few phone calls and save their loved ones. This family asked me to help after police had arrested their relative and demanded one million rubles ($15,090) from them, otherwise the entire republic would know that they had a gay family member; and they said they would kill their boy. So there were two threats.”

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Gannushkina put the family in touch with an attorney. On Jan. 10 she heard the man was free. “The police most probably took their money,” Gannushkina, now the head of Civil Assistance Committee, an NGO, told The Daily Beast on Thursday. “This situation sounded like one more awful atrocity in Kadyrov's Chechnya.”

A human rights campaigner in Chechnya, who declined to be named, told The Daily Beast that the recently detained gay men and women were threatened with prosecution under article #221 of the country’s criminal code, possession of drugs.

By Tuesday night, according to the human rights defender, police had released the detained gay men and women, who signed away their right to leave the republic. According to the source, officials retained the passports of the released LGBT people.

Since 2017, Russian and international LGBT networks have managed to help 150 Chechen victims of violence escape to Western countries. To evacuate one gay person from Chechnya abroad, volunteers have to raise up to 4,000 euros ($4,544).

“Since the beginning of the purge in 2017, we have heard dozens of stories from Chechens who we helped about local government officials ordering relatives to execute their family members”
CNN reported that the latest detentions started in December 2018, following the arrest of an administrator of a North Caucasus gay men’s group on the Russian social network VKontakte.

According to victims, a violent circle of top government officials and police commanders are driving the campaign to eject gay people from the republic.

“Since the beginning of the purge in 2017, we have heard dozens of stories from Chechens who we helped about local government officials ordering relatives to execute their family members,” one of the Russian LGBT Network’s campaigners told The Daily Beast. “These so-called ‘murders of dignity’ are popular in Chechnya.”

Dzhambulat Umarov, the Chechen Minister of National Policy, referred to the present detention, torture, and death allegations as “fantasy” and “nonsense.” Umarov added: “Considering the fact that they (gay people) have sick imagination to start from, I am not surprised that they can write nonsense like that.”

The Daily Beast interviewed Russian LGBT activists in Moscow and St. Petersburg, who organize the evacuations of LGBT victims of persecution from the republic.

Zoya Metisova, a 42-year-old psychologist and volunteer with the Russian LGBT Network, said that since mid-December the organization had received multiple pleas for help from LGBT Chechens.

“Chechens are too scared to speak with us on the phone, so we use an email for emergency calls,” Metisova told The Daily Beast. “So far no state agency has approached us with help or aid, we have to collect money and organize the evacuation. It is very concerning that now they grab and torture not only gay men but also gay women in Chechnya,” she added.

In 2017 more than 100 gay men were arrested and subjected to torture in the predominantly Muslim region. When journalists asked Kadyrov about arrests, he said: “Take them far away from us, so we don’t have them at home. To cleanse our blood, if there are any here.”

President Vladimir Putin has granted Kadyrov unlimited power. There is almost nobody in the republic, which has a population of 1.3 million, who is willing to give shelter to LGBT Chechens. Local human rights defenders face arrest, arson and murder.

Dmitry Gudkov, an ex-KGB officer and an opposition leader, told The Daily Beast that the reaction of Chechen authorities was “shameful,” and that the unlawful purge of Chechen LGBT people was making many senior law enforcement officers angry.

“Kadyrov has gone wild and it seems Putin cannot control him at all,” Gudkov told The Daily Beast. “Russia is not a sharia country but a democracy, where Chechen nationals have the same constitutional rights as everybody else. It is Putin who should protect their rights.”

The torture and murders of gay men and women have not stopped in the two years following the first crackdown.

“Kadyrov’s police demanded we give the names of other gay men to be threatened and beaten”
Arsen, a Chechen gay man, was 24 years old in February 2017, when several uniformed men kidnapped him on Putin Prospect, the main thoroughfare in Grozny, and locked him up with a dozen other gay men in a private apartment.

“Kadyrov’s police demanded we give the names of other gay men to be threatened and beaten,” he told The Daily Beast in a phone interview on Tuesday.

After he spent 11 days in a police jail in Grozny, Arsen’s family did not want to have anything to do with him. “I saw awful things, violent beatings; I was happy not to see any women in that jail. They would not have survived a day.

“Kadyrov's government consider gay people perverts who have no right to live; my family renounced me, I had to escape from the republic to survive.”

The situation facing LGBT Chechens is getting worse. “This time we hear more about torture of women, and police raping both gay men and women with police clubs,” Metisova said.

Sergey Markov, a member of Civic Chamber of the Russian Federation, called on the Russian government to help the Chechen LGBT community.

“I have been saying for a long time, that there should be a safe state channel for them,” Markov said, meaning that LGBT victims of violence should know who to call in the government in case of emergency.

However, said Markov, “Russian officials do not like the topic, in general. They see foreign special services behind these allegations.”

“It is remarkable that this new wave of arrests began shortly after OSCE (Organization for Cooperation and Security in Europe) published its report in December, confirming serious human rights violations in Chechnya, as if Chechen authorities launched a revenge,” Tanya Lokshina, associate director for Human Rights Watch’s Europe and Central Asia division, told The Daily Beast.

During the earlier anti-LGBT purge, Russian state law enforcement agencies claimed that all the allegations by LGBT activists about detentions, torture and deaths were false, since authorities had never received any concrete complaints from individuals.

Tatyana Moskalkova, High Commissioner for Human Rights of the Russian Federation, encouraged Chechen victims “not to be afraid to contact law enforcement agencies.”

But survivors of torture and persecutions say they are terrified of Chechen officials, who are a part of the Russian Federation law enforcement system.

Arsen, who has successfully claimed asylum in Canada, told The Daily Beast, “I can become a witness for a court hearing if Russia begins a serious investigation of crimes against LGBT people.”

Just reminding everyone that there is an ongoing campaign of terror, detentions, rape, torture and murder against LGBT people in Russia, lead by a close ally of Vladimir Putin (our President's best friend/master).

I can't wait to hear how this board's Kremlin apologist contingent will defend/dismiss this.

[muse]

Different culture, hard to judge.

[The Romulan Republic]

Different culture, hard to judge.

When did this board become a place where you could just hand-wave the torture, rape and murder of people based on their sexual orientation as "cultural differences"?

Some things are hard to judge. Its not our place to impose all our personal values on others. But this is the systematic rape, torture, and murder of people, living people, for no reason. It isn't hard to judge. Not if you have a fucking conscience.

Edit: And before anyone else says it, yes, I know shit like this has happened in the US too (although much less so in recent history). My view is the same- its a crime, and even if we lack the means to stop it, the least we owe the victims is to recognize what happened, and not try to sweep it under the rug or justify it.

[Jub]

The best thing we could do is to offer asylum to LGBT people in the region and let Chechnya know that we're willing to take it's problem off of their hands. Offer them some incentives if it comes to that, but beyond that we should leave well enough alone. If the West had a better record of getting change via other means I'd be all for more direct action, but the record is terrible and would lead to more suffering.

The sad fact is that you can't save everybody and trying, beyond my idea above which frankly isn't even a viable option, is a opportunity cost lost at best and creates more suffering at worst.

[The Romulan Republic]

The best thing we could do is to offer asylum to LGBT people in the region and let Chechnya know that we're willing to take it's problem off of their hands. Offer them some incentives if it comes to that, but beyond that we should leave well enough alone. If the West had a better record of getting change via other means I'd be all for more direct action, but the record is terrible and would lead to more suffering.

The sad fact is that you can't save everybody and trying, beyond my idea above which frankly isn't even a viable option, is a opportunity cost lost at best and creates more suffering at worst.

That would be the most direct way to help as a nation (on an individual level, lobby politicians to do so, and donate to the groups referenced in the article which are helping Chechen gays escape the country).

Further sanctions are also in my opinion warranted, but there are about fifty reasons we should be sanctioning the Putin regime and in this case, its more a symbolic gesture/inconvenience to them than something that will swiftly bring such atrocities to an end.

[muse]

Throwaway thread gets throwaway comment.
There's nothing to discuss here that hasn't already been gone over 1000 times.
Not to mention the implicit purpose of trolling certain people you don't like.

Russia going to Russia, news at 11. Would you like a pat on the back?

[The Romulan Republic]

Throwaway thread gets throwaway comment.
There's nothing to discuss here that hasn't already been gone over 1000 times.
Not to mention the implicit purpose of trolling certain people you don't like.

Russia going to Russia, news at 11. Would you like a pat on the back?

No, I would like to draw attention to an ongoing campaign of torture and murder. You may regard that as a "throwaway thread", but I do not. You may think that it makes you sound cool and sophisticated to hand-wave atrocities. Personally, I think it makes you at best an ass.

My comment regarding Kremlin apologists was a preemptive counter to the response I have learned to expect any time the actions of the Russian government are questioned on this board. You quickly fulfilled my expectations, both in your initial dismissal and in your attempt to derail the thread into another round of "let's mock TRR". I am not aware that mentioning Russian atrocities constitutes trolling, but if you feel (as you appear to imply) that I am engaging in vendetta, then I suggest that rather than further derailing the thread, you take the matter up with the moderators.

[Jub]

TRR, what do you expect this forum to do with this information? What are you currently doing besides scouring the internet for bad news, posting here, and getting mad when we're not as worked up about it as you are?

[The Romulan Republic]

TRR, what do you expect this forum to do with this information? What are you currently doing besides scouring the internet for bad news, posting here, and getting mad when we're not as worked up about it as you are?

What are you doing, besides going from thread to thread in a manner that is starting to look frankly vendetta-ish, and pooh-poohing everything I post?

I stated in my last reply to you two concrete things individuals could do in response to this story. Here, I'll restate them for you:

1. Contact your representatives in government and urge them to support offering asylum to LGBT people from Chechnya.

2. Donate to groups that are helping Chechen LGBT people relocate.

And I'll repeat what I said in the other thread: this is a news and politics discussion forum. If people don't want to post news articles and then discuss them, then why do we have this forum? If anyone who posts news articles is going to be criticized for doing so, why don't the admins just shut the forum down? Or, if its just me who gets this response every time they post, then how is that anything but vendetta and harassment?

In any case, this thread is not about me. Its about the issue of what is happening to LGBT people in Chechnya. So I will not respond to any further attempts to make this thread about me.

[Jub]

What are you doing, besides going from thread to thread in a manner that is starting to look frankly vendetta-ish, and pooh-poohing everything I post?

I'm replying to threads that you're active in.

I stated in my last reply to you two concrete things individuals could do in response to this story. Here, I'll restate them for you:

1. Contact your representatives in government and urge them to support offering asylum to LGBT people from Chechnya.

2. Donate to groups that are helping Chechen LGBT people relocate.

And I'll repeat what I said in the other thread: this is a news and politics discussion forum. If people don't want to post news articles and then discuss them, then why do we have this forum? If anyone who posts news articles is going to be criticized for doing so, why don't the admins just shut the forum down? Or, if its just me who gets this response every time they post, then how is that anything but vendetta and harassment?

Your suggestions are unlikely to work unless far, far more people than you or I do this.

Might I suggest instead investing in political parties closer to home so we can get people elected that won't need to be petitioned en-mass to act like decent human beings?

More realistically, we shouldn't blow our load getting this issue looked into, even if we offered to take these people it's unlikely that a deal gets worked out where these people are actually resettled. There are issues that can be tackled that will save more lives with less political capital expended. These people, as sad as it makes me to say it, aren't worth the time or effort it would take to save them.

We'd save what hundreds, low thousands of LGBT people, with money and resources that could save tens or hundreds of thousands for the same cost. I'd suggest that we spend that money on increasing Vancouver's target emissions goals from 3% reduction yearly to 5%, planting community gardens, opening more homeless shelters, or starting work on berms and dykes to save downtown Vancouver from rising sea levels. All of which will save/improve the lives of more people than airlifting some LGBT people out of Chechnya will.

[aerius]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. What if I just don't give a fuck about what's going on in Russia? What if I have more important concerns, like the child slave labour that we're directly enabling and supporting with our reliance on technology? Are you going to tell me that the plight of gays in Russia is more important than the lives of child slave labourers in Africa? And if so, what does that say about your value system?

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm replying to threads that you're active in.

I'll let the mods decide this one.

Your suggestions are unlikely to work unless far, far more people than you or I do this.

Might I suggest instead investing in political parties closer to home so we can get people elected that won't need to be petitioned en-mass to act like decent human beings?

More realistically, we shouldn't blow our load getting this issue looked into, even if we offered to take these people it's unlikely that a deal gets worked out where these people are actually resettled. There are issues that can be tackled that will save more lives with less political capital expended. These people, as sad as it makes me to say it, aren't worth the time or effort it would take to save them.

We'd save what hundreds, low thousands of LGBT people, with money and resources that could save tens or hundreds of thousands for the same cost. I'd suggest that we spend that money on increasing Vancouver's target emissions goals from 3% reduction yearly to 5%, planting community gardens, opening more homeless shelters, or starting work on berms and dykes to save downtown Vancouver from rising sea levels. All of which will save/improve the lives of more people than airlifting some LGBT people out of Chechnya will.

Ah, the old argument that "We shouldn't care about people overseas, just focus on our own country first".

I'm afraid that's a non-starter with me. I am neither a proponent of local government first/state's rights nor of isolationism. I believe that you are positing a false choice: that we can only care about one issue or place at a time, and that any efforts to help others. Ultimately, the idea that society is a zero-sum game, where only one group can win at the expense of all the others.

That idea is also the very essence of the Alt. Reich.

My ideas won't "work" in the sense of saving all persecuted people in Chechnya. But they would help save some people. For those lives, and their loved ones, it will matter. You say just you and me won't make a difference? Fine. Go out and talk to other people. Tell them to speak up, and donate. Democracy is a collective endeavour.

But I guess its easier to just say the problem is too big to do anything about, than to actually try to do something. Or to pretend that the world is a zero-sum game where we can only save ourselves by leaving everyone else behind, rather than an interconnected world where the good of one is related to the good of all.

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. What if I just don't give a fuck about what's going on in Russia? What if I have more important concerns, like the child slave labour that we're directly enabling and supporting with our reliance on technology? Are you going to tell me that the plight of gays in Russia is more important than the lives of child slave labourers in Africa? And if so, what does that say about your value system?

Not caring about the suffering of other human beings is, of course, your prerogative. However, to the second part of your question, I would say the same thing that I said to Jub- that you are positing a false dilemma, that we can only care about LGBT people in Chechnya or (insert issue here), so that you can then frame me as a bad person for caring about LGBT people in Chechnya, because it must mean I don't care/care less about some other issue. But that's bullshit. People can care about more than one thing at a time. Society is not a zero-sum game where only one issue or group can succeed at the expense of all others. And the notion that that's what society is, is the essence of the Alt. Reich's world view.

And I must say, I've been here long enough to remember a time when a topic like this would have elicited outrage on this board, instead of apathy and derision towards anyone who actually thought the topic was worth discussing. Have we, not just on this board but as a society, fallen so far that it is now seen as wrong to care, or to even acknowledge that there are wrongs in the world? When did this board become a place where the consensus was "fuck everyone else, nothing matters", and expressing outrage over an atrocity was met only with derision and hostility? Or is it just because I'm the one posting it that this is the response? Because if this is simply about personal hostility to me that is preventing people from engaging with the topic in a productive manner, then I will gladly depart this board, in the interests of productive discussion.

[FaxModem1]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. What if I just don't give a fuck about what's going on in Russia? What if I have more important concerns, like the child slave labour that we're directly enabling and supporting with our reliance on technology? Are you going to tell me that the plight of gays in Russia is more important than the lives of child slave labourers in Africa? And if so, what does that say about your value system?

I'd argue that awareness is the first step for both. And just because one issue is being brought up, another isn't being brought down. And in this case, child slavery is less due to purposefully trying harm but rather negligence or exploitation. In cases such as what's going on in Russia, when people are purposefully being hunted and prosecuted, there's a greater chance of extermination and death. Both are evil, but one is more pressing than the other in what harm will be done, and the greater good we can do to stop it, as a slave can be freed, a dead person can't be freed from a bullet.

[Jub]

Ah, the old argument that "We shouldn't care about people overseas, just focus on our own country first".

I'm afraid that's a non-starter with me. I am neither a proponent of local government first/state's rights nor of isolationism. I believe that you are positing a false choice: that we can only care about one issue or place at a time, and that any efforts to help others. Ultimately, the idea that society is a zero-sum game, where only one group can win at the expense of all the others.

That idea is also the very essence of the Alt. Reich.

My ideas won't "work" in the sense of saving all persecuted people in Chechnya. But they would help save some people. For those lives, and their loved ones, it will matter. You say just you and me won't make a difference? Fine. Go out and talk to other people. Tell them to speak up, and donate. Democracy is a collective endeavour.

But I guess its easier to just say the problem is too big to do anything about, than to actually try to do something. Or to pretend that the world is a zero-sum game where we can only save ourselves by leaving everyone else behind, rather than an interconnected world where the good of one is related to the good of all.

TRR, you're ignoring the realities of human tribalism and the simple fact that outrage is a limited resource. People only have so much time in a day to do anything, they're already unlikely to spend it on politics unless they are natural inclined to do so or the issue is one that effects them personally. The reality is, that with so many battles going unfought closer to home, going after issues further abroad is tilting at windmills.

For any given argument I can simply ask, "Why choose that one over these ten other issues off similar scope?" It's not wrong to suggest that we get to the lowest hanging fruit first just as a form of triage. In a world with unlimited resources, both in terms of capital and political will, we'd never have to choose or settle, but in the current reality we have to make hard choices. Some of those involve looking the other way as people die.

I'd argue that awareness is the first step for both. And just because one issue is being brought up, another isn't being brought down. And in this case, child slavery is less due to purposefully trying harm but rather negligence or exploitation. In cases such as what's going on in Russia, when people are purposefully being hunted and prosecuted, there's a greater chance of extermination and death. Both are evil, but one is more pressing than the other in what harm will be done, and the greater good we can do to stop it, as a slave can be freed, a dead person can't be freed from a bullet.

That isn't true though. The time needed to explain an issue is a finite resource, as is political capital, and public attention span. For any given issue, an edcated person who's investigated the ills of the world, could suggest a dozen such issues of equal scope and immediacy. For example, why are gays dying in Chechnya worth more or less than the Rohingya or those in sub-Saharan Africa? There's such a thing as information overload such that if we fail to prioritize issues in a logical way we would be drowned in cries for help from all sides. It's not reasonable to expect people to know about or care about every situation where a few thousand people are maybe dying half a world away.

It sucks, it hurts, and it should hurt but issues that are far away and hard to deal with should get less attention than issues of similar scope closer to home. Not only are the closer issues more likely to be solved via your efforts, but you can easily point to results that locals can see which makes them more likely to help in the future. Failures or success that people can't see will lead to burn out and dwindling support the next time you reachout to them about an issue. That's the point I've been trying to make by responding to TRR to the point of eating a temp ban. You can't just hammer on issues without offering effective means to fight or people will tune you out.

If TRR was on your Facebook feed posting these articles without comment, would you read them? How about if you had one-hundred TRRs all asking for support for their pet issues? Could you even read them all if you wanted to? Donate to them?

-----

TLDR: While caring about all suffering is noble, time and attention span are limited resources. If you keep spamming people with bad news they will tune you out. If you ask for and receive support but don't obtain results, or obtain results that people can't see, moral drops and you'll get less support in the future. So, yes, even concern and outrage is a limited resource and that means that yes, the world is a zero sum game.

[Tiriol]

You know, what I've seen in this thread and some other threads is nothing more than cynicism masquerading as wisdom and malicious use of tu quoque fallacy. TRR might go overboard often, but at least he cares and by the looks of it, tries to make a difference. Apparently the others don't care enough, are trolling him, or seriously think that until the West/US/whatever is perfect as a state, as a nation, and as a people, it's always OK to derail discussion about other nations, states, and peoples' wrongdoings by pointing out imperfections.

I've noticed that there tends to be three kinds of cynicism: one is where you have been kicked down so many times that you really don't care any more, because you instinctively expect it to happen again, no matter the outcome; second one is where you just accept the status quo and might even thrive in it, so you don't necessarily see any point in changing anything; and the third one is where you are not affected by it in any shape or form, so you have the LUXURY of being cynical and telling others that it doesn't matter. And I seriously think that the Russian apologism is type three cynicism.

TLDR: While caring about all suffering is noble, time and attention span are limited resources. If you keep spamming people with bad news they will tune you out. If you ask for and receive support but don't obtain results, or obtain results that people can't see, moral drops and you'll get less support in the future. So, yes, even concern and outrage is a limited resource and that means that yes, the world is a zero sum game.

Weren't you the one who was glamoring for decision-making progress where the people have no say if it doesn't fit scientific consensus (or rather, scientific consensus as decided and agreed upon by those who are already in power, because you are fool if you think eroding away popular control of governments, nations and international bodies would not increase the influence of those who already have power) or goes against what experts say? What makes you think it would be limited to combating climate change? Because I can tell you right now that several military experts would heartily advice for increasing military budget in every existing country "just to be on the safe side". Anyhow, while you rage about stupid people and how only experts or informed populace (which kinda harkens back to time when basically only rich people, who could educate themselves and could reasonably be expected to be informed of anything outside their immediate surroundings, had a say in how government and society were run) should be allowed to make decisions, you are also engaging in this "zero sum game" - and quite frankly, with much worse results AND much worse game pieces than TRR.

[K. A. Pital]

Proposals?

After all, Westerners financed Chechen islamists who had views like ISIS in the First and Second Chechen Wars to snub, damage and potentially dismantle Russia.

Now Russia is ruled by a cruel oligarchy which uses religious tradition as a prop up, and Chechnya is ruled by an Islamist warlord (a “moderate rebel”, who defected, to borrow the terms from Syria). In no small part thanks to the Westerners.

Your solution, dear Westerners? Nuclear war with Russia over rights in Chechnya?

For the record, I have mentioned many times that Putin is building a conservative oligarchy in Russia, a Pinochet-like regime. That the Orthodox Church is gaining undue influence and the agenda becomes more and more like Franco’s Spain.

But hey, you guys won, it is what your victory looks like.

[AniThyng]

Proposals?

After all, Westerners financed Chechen islamists who had views like ISIS in the First and Second Chechen Wars to snub, damage and potentially dismantle Russia.

Now Russia is ruled by a cruel oligarchy which uses religious tradition as a prop up, and Chechnya is ruled by an Islamist warlord (a “moderate rebel”, who defected, to borrow the terms from Syria). In no small part thanks to the Westerners.

Your solution, dear Westerners? Nuclear war with Russia over rights in Chechnya?

For the record, I have mentioned many times that Putin is building a conservative oligarchy in Russia, a Pinochet-like regime. That the Orthodox Church is gaining undue influence and the agenda becomes more and more like Franco’s Spain.

But hey, you guys won, it is what your victory looks like.

I'm not sure I follow - is it that the alternative was if Yeltsin's Russia had managed to win the first Chechen war without western meddling Putin would never have come to power/would not have resorted to pursuing power the way he did?

[K. A. Pital]

If the West did not embolden radical Islamists from Afghanistan to Chechnya to put pressure on Russia, it could be that the regime would have been more secular.

A swift defeat in 1994, perhaps could have prevented the second war and kept the elements that came with NATO support via Turkey out of the region.

Basically, not giving weapons to Islamists is a basic sensible policy feature which could have altered the outcome significantly.

Russia may have allied with more secular Chechen elements when looking for defectors who will run Chechnya in the future, had they not been wiped out by islamists.

It may not have prevented the rise of Putin, but the situation in Chechnya in particular could have been different.

[aerius]

If the West did not embolden radical Islamists from Afghanistan to Chechnya to put pressure on Russia, it could be that the regime would have been more secular.

A swift defeat in 1994, perhaps could have prevented the second war and kept the elements that came with NATO support via Turkey out of the region.

Basically, not giving weapons to Islamists is a basic sensible policy feature which could have altered the outcome significantly.

Russia may have allied with more secular Chechen elements when looking for defectors who will run Chechnya in the future, had they not been wiped out by islamists.

It may not have prevented the rise of Putin, but the situation in Chechnya in particular could have been different.

You want the West to take ownership & responsibility for the entirely foreseeable problems which it directly enabled & created?
Surely you can't be serious, that is crazy talk!

I mean, we toppled a secular democratically elected government in Iran during the 50s because they actually wanted fair royalty payments for their oil, and installed a puppet government which eventually led to a Islamic fundamentalist takeover. Then we cry about Iran being a human rights violator when that's what Islamic fundamentalists do, and we put them there.

Then we go and support more Islamic fundamentalists in Afghanistan because this is 1984, and Communism and Soviets are evil. Then we act all surprised that the country becomes an Islamic fundamentalist shithole. Then we do the same thing in Chechnya 10 years later with the similar results and act like no one saw it coming.

And finally, we helped topple the government in the Ukraine and support the right wing fascists instead of the moderates, then act all outraged when said fascists start doing the usual fascist things. As if we never saw that one coming either. What did you think was going to happen?

Is it unfortunate that people are suffering? Absolutely. However, we need to put most of the blame where it belongs. Us. We in the West, and by that I mean primarily the US and UK, which went in and fucked all these places up, directly causing many of the current problems. But nah, we'll just blame it on Russia, Iran, and Iraq because they're the ones who have to deal with the giant steaming turd pile we left them. Let me go burn my neighbour's house down, then call him a racist violent thug when he gets mad at me.

[K. A. Pital]

A lot of these problems did originate internally.

I mean, Chechnya during the war was largely ruled by people like Yandarbiev who was considered a radical Wahhabite even by fellow islamists. And what kind of ideology could such people have, and pass on to the people? You have all seen it after Iraq was destroyed.

What I think is that this is indeed an issue where Russia - its secular government, whatever own sins it has - should take responsibility for providing safety to people who want to leave Chechnya.

Under the circumstances this would probably be the most humane path. Staying in Chechnya with religious nutjobs emboldened and families tossing their own under the bus in the name of faith is madness.

Sanctioning Russia or even Chechnya in particular would be quite likely futile and even counterproductive, like the Iran sanctions...

[aerius]

True. The situation in Chechnya and some of the surrounding countries has been troubled to say the least since Soviet times if not before that. I don't know what the long term solution may be, but I'm pretty sure it isn't let's go start wars, forcibly occupying, or otherwise destabilizing the country and allowing radical elements to gain more power.

Lots of posturing and blame getting tossed around everywhere, but no one wants to sit down and go "hmmm, maybe we should start fixing things instead of breaking things". Resolving the problems in Chechnya may not be something that Russian can do on its own, whether we like Russia or not, it's possible that we'll need to step in and help.

[K. A. Pital]

True. The situation in Chechnya and some of the surrounding countries has been troubled to say the least since Soviet times if not before that. I don't know what the long term solution may be, but I'm pretty sure it isn't let's go start wars, forcibly occupying, or otherwise destabilizing the country and allowing radical elements to gain more power.

Lots of posturing and blame getting tossed around everywhere, but no one wants to sit down and go "hmmm, maybe we should start fixing things instead of breaking things". Resolving the problems in Chechnya may not be something that Russian can do on its own, whether we like Russia or not, it's possible that we'll need to step in and help.

Pro-Western liberals/nationalists in Russia mentioned that Chechnya must be cut off from Russia - granted independence. I think that once/if it happens, the regime would look at best like Turkmenistan. At worst, it will be like Afghanistan or Pakistan.

[The Romulan Republic]

Proposals?

After all, Westerners financed Chechen islamists who had views like ISIS in the First and Second Chechen Wars to snub, damage and potentially dismantle Russia.

Now Russia is ruled by a cruel oligarchy which uses religious tradition as a prop up, and Chechnya is ruled by an Islamist warlord (a “moderate rebel”, who defected, to borrow the terms from Syria). In no small part thanks to the Westerners.

Your solution, dear Westerners? Nuclear war with Russia over rights in Chechnya?

For the record, I have mentioned many times that Putin is building a conservative oligarchy in Russia, a Pinochet-like regime. That the Orthodox Church is gaining undue influence and the agenda becomes more and more like Franco’s Spain.

But hey, you guys won, it is what your victory looks like.

No one is suggesting nuclear war over this. I sure as hell am not. That is a preposterous strawman.

[K. A. Pital]

No one is suggesting nuclear war over this. I sure as hell am not. That is a preposterous strawman.

It is not a strawman, but just me in a bad mood - sorry, it was dumb.

I already said, Russia should own this one and provide safe passage.

[The Romulan Republic]

Or just reign in their Chechen lackies. Although I also think that realistically, Hell will freeze over before Russia does anything serious to mitigate or end this.

Putin's Russia is likewise an overtly homophobic state, albeit Chechnya seems to have taken it to a new level.