Liam Neeson faces backlash over racially charged rape revenge comments

[Broomstick]

That's entirely possible - Northern Ireland is not plentifully supplied with people of African descent, even today they are about 1/5 of 1% of the population and in the past even less.

But it also sounds like he realized what an asshole he was for what he was doing and changed his actions and way of thinking. Which is, in the long term, the best course of action for such thoughts.

[madd0ct0r]

Then if the cop thing bamboozles you so, make it the victim of a guy who shoots up a school, bombs an abortion clinic, or whatever.

If in response to Dylann Roof, someone said that they just wanted to go out and kill a white person, would so many be cheering them on for being public with it, or would it be like when Kaepernick kneeled and people went nuts?

Again, if that guy was white the backlash wouldn't be against all whites, that's just not how this works.

Citation or context limit needed.
Because i assure you, in some places of the world, white men are a highly identified and racially charged minority.

[Zaune]

By that reasoning there should be a LOT of people you're uneasy around - thoughts of retribution that could fall under "hate crime" are common, as are violent thoughts in general. The real question is did someone act on those thoughts? And "action" can range from what Neeson did - wandering around at random looking for trouble but not actually committing a crime - to full on murder.

Minor nitpick here, but to say he didn't actually commit a crime isn't really true. If he'd been stopped by the police then he would have been arrested for possessing an offensive weapon... maybe. Back in what some people unironically call the good old days they might also have given him directions to somewhere he could find some black people and wished him the best of luck. That was the Seventies for you, especially in Northern Ireland.

Nevertheless, while that's not a trivial criminal offence in this country it's still a much lesser one than actually using said weapon.

[Jub]

Citation or context limit needed.
Because i assure you, in some places of the world, white men are a highly identified and racially charged minority.

The context is the western world where this story is news and where most people commenting on it are from.

[madd0ct0r]

Citation or context limit needed.
Because i assure you, in some places of the world, white men are a highly identified and racially charged minority.

The context is the western world where this story is news and where most people commenting on it are from.

Narrow it down brother. Are we talking troubles Belfast, hackney in London now or bumfuck west Virginia?

[Jub]

Narrow it down brother. Are we talking troubles Belfast, hackney in London now or bumfuck west Virginia?

I'm talking the internet using west as a whole as the story broke. You know, the sphere which responded to this story.

[madd0ct0r]

Narrow it down brother. Are we talking troubles Belfast, hackney in London now or bumfuck west Virginia?

I'm talking the internet using west as a whole as the story broke. You know, the sphere which responded to this story.

Then you are using a uselessly generic category that tells us nothing beyond your poor organization of thought.

I mean, im a privileged brit who went to international boarding school, and some decades later remains instituinalised in proffesions on worldwide engineering and ngo projects

Compare to a teenager in bumfuck west Virginia who has never left their home town and was brought up in a post slavery fear and loathing charged situation

What do we have in common? What does the wedtern world catergory tell you usefully about us?

[Gandalf]

Narrow it down brother. Are we talking troubles Belfast, hackney in London now or bumfuck west Virginia?

I'm talking the internet using west as a whole as the story broke. You know, the sphere which responded to this story.

Then you are using a uselessly generic category that tells us nothing beyond your poor organization of thought.

I mean, im a privileged brit who went to international boarding school, and some decades later remains instituinalised in proffesions on worldwide engineering and ngo projects

Compare to a teenager in bumfuck west Virginia who has never left their home town and was brought up in a post slavery fear and loathing charged situation

What do we have in common? What does the wedtern world catergory tell you usefully about us?

I'm curious to know if "western world" includes the Indigenous peoples upon which so much of it is built. We see "white men."

[madd0ct0r]

Who said im white ?

[Jub]

Then you are using a uselessly generic category that tells us nothing beyond your poor organization of thought.

I mean, im a privileged brit who went to international boarding school, and some decades later remains instituinalised in proffesions on worldwide engineering and ngo projects

Compare to a teenager in bumfuck west Virginia who has never left their home town and was brought up in a post slavery fear and loathing charged situation

What do we have in common? What does the wedtern world catergory tell you usefully about us?

It tells me that you both likely have internet access and, to a limited extent, knowledge of social issues. That teen might not watch the same news sources as you are, but if he's weighing in on the Liam Neeson situation you at least have shared knowledge of who the actor is and equal access to the news stories explaining his side of the story. You may not draw the same conclusions, but you do draw from similar sources of media especially online.

You're both also more likely to categorize people of other races by race than you are to do the same with Caucasians. You less so as Britain tends to not view people of color the same way Americans do, but I'd be willing to bet that you still do it to some extent.

I'm curious to know if "western world" includes the Indigenous peoples upon which so much of it is built. We see "white men."

It depends on how integrated they are. If they are highly integrated then yes if they're less so I would tend to count them as natives. You have to integrate into society to be counted as part of it.

This isn't a judgment of natives, they don't have to do anything, they're just such a small and generally marginalized minority that they don't really shift what a culture as a whole has to say about an issue.

I'm not saying that every westerner or even ever American will group other races by race and other Caucasians by profession or socioeconomic class, it's just a more likely outcome. It's way less likely that a person who's loved one was attacked by a white cop would go looking for a random white dude to fight than it would be for a person to do the same with a visible minority.

[His Divine Shadow]

I wonder how things would have been received if someone close to a victim of US police violence said that they went out looking for white people to kill?

Wouldn't it be more like looking for a cop to kill? Whites aren't seen as a group the same way minorities are, for better or (mostly) worse, so you tend to identify them via profession or socio-economic class.

If somebody had a loved one badly abused by a cop I'd totally get why they'd want to hurt a cop (or even cops) in return given how we can expect police on civilian violence to be handled. It wouldn't be right, but I'd think the same thing I think of Neeson, that it's a stupid revenge fantasy and as long as you never act on it and admit it was a bad idea you're probably fine.

Cops aren't a race.

Insert pig joke here.

[His Divine Shadow]

We should also remember where Liam Neeson was raised not just when. In Northen Ireland during "the troubles" as that time was called it's likely that idea of violent personal retribution ws only option was a lot more common and accepted, not mention there was probably a strong "us versus them" atmosphare back then, granted we'd have to ask an irish person who was from the region and old enough during that time to be certain. While it doesn't excuse his actions it might go towards explaining why he had those toughts.

After all we got remember that person in question isn't an american and thus has a different cultural point of view about certain things.

Was he a unionist or republican? Cause the unionists got murals like



While republicans got murals like

[Lord Revan]

We should also remember where Liam Neeson was raised not just when. In Northen Ireland during "the troubles" as that time was called it's likely that idea of violent personal retribution ws only option was a lot more common and accepted, not mention there was probably a strong "us versus them" atmosphare back then, granted we'd have to ask an irish person who was from the region and old enough during that time to be certain. While it doesn't excuse his actions it might go towards explaining why he had those toughts.

After all we got remember that person in question isn't an american and thus has a different cultural point of view about certain things.

Was he a unionist or republican? Cause the unionists got murals like

I dunno I'm just going by what the article in the OP said.

[Broomstick]

For what it's worth - Neeson was raised Roman Catholic in a predominantly Protestant area, so in that context he himself was part of a minority. Most Catholic Irish were Republicans (wanting to join the Republic of Ireland) He also used to attend Ian Paisley's Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster, a Protestant church, and Paisley was the founder of the Democratic Unionist Party (wanted to remain part of the United Kingdom). Which leads me to think that Neeson wasn't strongly in either camp but probably, due to The Troubles, absorbed some not-wonderful influences from the local environment and due to his Catholic family probably was seen as a Republican whether he actually was one or not.

The thing is.... how he's acted in the several decades between this incident he spoke of and now should count for something. He's not someone I follow so I don't know if there's anything there to weight an opinion in one direction or another. Neeson certainly has worked with people who aren't Caucasian in the acting industry, if I was actually doing an investigation those are the folks I'd talk to about the man's actions.

[Civil War Man]

The impression I got from a quick reading of his wikipedia bio is that he was/is probably pro-union, but not actively so. He was raised Catholic, but there's his aforementioned connection with the DUP founder's church (and he described Paisley as the person who inspired him to pursue acting), and his self-described obliviousness about local politics until after Bloody Sunday, with no real indication that he became staunchly Unionist or Republican after that. An outlook like that in a setting as volatile as Belfast during the Troubles suggests at least a Unionist lean, since in general ambivalence about local politics, regardless of setting, is something that can only really exist for someone who is okay with the status quo, or at least not dissatisfied enough to actively seek change.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

From what Neeson himself has said, it seems he armed himself and went round looking for some random black guy to attack him. What he didn't say was whether the original guilty party in the end.

Regardless, he's been replaced by Glenn Close on the Late Show. And people are calling for him to be removed from the new Men in Black film.

[The Romulan Republic]

The premier of his new movie also got cancelled.

I'm of two minds about it. On the one hand, what he did was deplorable- far, far worse than what Governor Black Face did, for example. He admitted to actively planning out and attempting to commit a murder and hate crime. There is a part of me that feels that in a more just world, he would be under arrest and facing a prison sentence for that right now, no matter how long ago it happened.

On the other hand, he chose to voluntarily come forward and admit his sin, despite the considerable risk to himself in doing so. That is also a very important distinction between him and someone like Governor Black Face. It takes courage, and as far as we have any reason to believe, he regrets his past actions. I don't know that its helpful to just brand him a racist and demand the destruction of his life, because it sends the message that people should not own up to their past mistakes, that we should not confront the past, but just sweep it under the rug and pretend that everything was right all along. It also sends the message that we as a society do not believe in redemption or forgiveness, and that if once you err, you will be forever outcast and your only friends will be the likes of the Trumpers. I don't think either of those things is a good message to send.

[Tiriol]

The premier of his new movie also got cancelled.

I'm of two minds about it. On the one hand, what he did was deplorable- far, far worse than what Governor Black Face did, for example. He admitted to actively planning out and attempting to commit a murder and hate crime. There is a part of me that feels that in a more just world, he would be under arrest and facing a prison sentence for that right now, no matter how long ago it happened.

On the other hand, he chose to voluntarily come forward and admit his sin, despite the considerable risk to himself in doing so. That is also a very important distinction between him and someone like Governor Black Face. It takes courage, and as far as we have any reason to believe, he regrets his past actions. I don't know that its helpful to just brand him a racist and demand the destruction of his life, because it sends the message that people should not own up to their past mistakes, that we should not confront the past, but just sweep it under the rug and pretend that everything was right all along. It also sends the message that we as a society do not believe in redemption or forgiveness, and that if once you err, you will be forever outcast and your only friends will be the likes of the Trumpers. I don't think either of those things is a good message to send.

Bullshit. No crime was committed, because just going out and looking for trouble does NOT constitute an attempted murder or even a hate crime, unless we start going down the path of thought crime. IF Neeson had done something other than being a racist idiot before realizing how idiotic and terrible he was being, I might agree; but he didn't do or cause anything. Statue of limitations would still apply regardless, unless you argue that just going out in a racist anger and hoping to meet someone with whom one can have a row ending in murder would merit a life sentence with no statue of limitations.

And about the second part: that already has happened. Even though Neeson outright stated that what he did and what he was thinking at the time was wrong and terrible, he has been condemned and vilified. There's so much "righteous" anger and hate against all "sinners" (Neeson specifically) and desire to see them humiliated and punished popping up that the socially progressive people who take part in it are more akin to witch hunters and Puritans. I agree with you: it is a horrible, horrible message to send out and yet it is happening (although I doubt Neeson is going to join Trumpers or their ilk, but others might).

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Michelle Rodriguez has weighed in:

“It’s all fuckin’ bullshit. Liam Neeson is not a racist,” said Rodriguez at the amfAR Gala New York on Wednesday night. “Dude, have you watched Widows? His tongue was so far down Viola Davis’s throat. You can’t call him a racist ever. Racists don’t make out with the race that they hate, especially in the way he does with his tongue—so deep down her throat. I don’t care how good of an actor you are. It’s all bullshit. Ignore it. He’s not a racist. He’s a loving man. It’s all lies.”

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm not sure "Is capable of making out with a black woman" is convincing proof one isn't a racist, but that aside I'm inclined to agree with her.

[Elfdart]

Northern Ireland is where the ancestors of the hillbillies came from, and they brought a lot of the customs of that culturally retarded part of the world to the southern US, only Americans (as usual) like to take things from the Old World and turn them up to 11. One of these customs is a fetish for violent tit-for-tat revenge -the Hatfield/McCoy Feud being just one example. Another is swine justice ("We don't call 911!").

There's a reason Ian Paisley and his inbred daughter got degrees from a Ku Kluxer diploma mill like Bob Jones University. The DUP and KKK are twigs of the same branch.

[Gandalf]

I'm not sure "Is capable of making out with a black woman" is convincing proof one isn't a racist, but that aside I'm inclined to agree with her.

Considering it was in a film, presumably for money, I'm not really considering it proof of anything.

It depends on how integrated they are. If they are highly integrated then yes if they're less so I would tend to count them as natives. You have to integrate into society to be counted as part of it.

This isn't a judgment of natives, they don't have to do anything, they're just such a small and generally marginalized minority that they don't really shift what a culture as a whole has to say about an issue.

Wait, are you actually stating that if one integrates with "western culture" that they're no longer a native? That's how it reads, and I'd like to think I've misread it.

Northern Ireland is where the ancestors of the hillbillies came from, and they brought a lot of the customs of that culturally retarded part of the world to the southern US, only Americans (as usual) like to take things from the Old World and turn them up to 11. One of these customs is a fetish for violent tit-for-tat revenge -the Hatfield/McCoy Feud being just one example. Another is swine justice ("We don't call 911!").

There's a reason Ian Paisley and his inbred daughter got degrees from a Ku Kluxer diploma mill like Bob Jones University. The DUP and KKK are twigs of the same branch.

I guess "Liam Neeson once attempted a lynching" would be an interesting alternative headline.

[Elfdart]

It's got to be pretty disturbing for the folks who live in relatively civilized lands that a likeable movie star (who got a trainload of sympathy after his wife was killed in a freak accident) would not only entertain violent revenge fantasies but come pretty damned close to acting on them. Shrinks have noted time and again how getting revenge gives the vigilante a kind of elation one gets from doing good deeds. So one of the more unnerving parts of "frontier justice" is that it's all too easy to get way out of hand because it's so enjoyable people just don't want to stop.

On the positive side, it's not like he's bragging about what he did or pretending it was cool and more importantly, he didn't actually beat a "black bastard" with a "cosh". Thank goodness he had some control over himself.

[The Romulan Republic]

The premier of his new movie also got cancelled.

I'm of two minds about it. On the one hand, what he did was deplorable- far, far worse than what Governor Black Face did, for example. He admitted to actively planning out and attempting to commit a murder and hate crime. There is a part of me that feels that in a more just world, he would be under arrest and facing a prison sentence for that right now, no matter how long ago it happened.

On the other hand, he chose to voluntarily come forward and admit his sin, despite the considerable risk to himself in doing so. That is also a very important distinction between him and someone like Governor Black Face. It takes courage, and as far as we have any reason to believe, he regrets his past actions. I don't know that its helpful to just brand him a racist and demand the destruction of his life, because it sends the message that people should not own up to their past mistakes, that we should not confront the past, but just sweep it under the rug and pretend that everything was right all along. It also sends the message that we as a society do not believe in redemption or forgiveness, and that if once you err, you will be forever outcast and your only friends will be the likes of the Trumpers. I don't think either of those things is a good message to send.

Bullshit. No crime was committed, because just going out and looking for trouble does NOT constitute an attempted murder or even a hate crime, unless we start going down the path of thought crime. IF Neeson had done something other than being a racist idiot before realizing how idiotic and terrible he was being, I might agree; but he didn't do or cause anything. Statue of limitations would still apply regardless, unless you argue that just going out in a racist anger and hoping to meet someone with whom one can have a row ending in murder would merit a life sentence with no statue of limitations.

Note: I said "should", not would. I am talking about moral hypotheticals, not the law. I'm well aware that his actions will not result in him standing trial.

Does he deserve to be seen as someone who attempted murder and hate crimes? Yes, in my opinion- because by his own admission, he went out with the stated intention of finding an excuse to kill a black person. That it was a half-assed attempt that failed doesn't change his stated intent.

The only question is whether it is possible for his subsequent remorse and actions to sufficiently atone for it.

And about the second part: that already has happened. Even though Neeson outright stated that what he did and what he was thinking at the time was wrong and terrible, he has been condemned and vilified. There's so much "righteous" anger and hate against all "sinners" (Neeson specifically) and desire to see them humiliated and punished popping up that the socially progressive people who take part in it are more akin to witch hunters and Puritans. I agree with you: it is a horrible, horrible message to send out and yet it is happening (although I doubt Neeson is going to join Trumpers or their ilk, but others might).

For the most part, I can't disagree, though I would caution you about portraying progressives collectively as engaging in a "witch hunt", as such labels and buzzwords are painting the progressive movement with a very broad brush, and are very reminiscent of far Right "political correctness run amok" agit-prop.

[Broomstick]

Does he deserve to be seen as someone who attempted murder and hate crimes? Yes, in my opinion- because by his own admission, he went out with the stated intention of finding an excuse to kill a black person. That it was a half-assed attempt that failed doesn't change his stated intent.

The only question is whether it is possible for his subsequent remorse and actions to sufficiently atone for it.

By that standard there are a fuckton of people out in the world who need to be tried and found guilty for various crimes that they never actually committed. Violent thoughts are common, especially in reaction to yourself or your loved ones becoming victims of crime. Wandering around in a state of anger for awhile is common in such circumstances.

Liam Neeson never actually committed a crime. We have know way to know at this point if, had he encountered a random black person, he would have acted on his violent impulses or not. Under the principal of innocent until proven guilty Neeson is innocent.