France recalls ambassador to Rome-worst diplomatic crisis between France and Italy since WW2.

[The Romulan Republic]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... -world-war

Paris has taken the extraordinary step of recalling its ambassador from Rome, in the worst crisis between the two neighbouring countries since the second world war.

France blamed what it called baseless verbal attacks from Italy’s political leaders, which it said were “without precedent since world war two”.

Italy’s two deputy prime ministers, the far-right Matteo Salvini and Luigi Di Maio of the populist, anti-establishment Five Star Movement, have in recent months criticised the French president, Emmanuel Macron, on a host of inflammatory issues, from immigration to the gilets jaunes (yellow vest) anti-government demonstrations.

Di Maio this week met leaders of the gilets jaunes seeking to run in May’s European parliament elections as he declared the “wind of change has crossed the Alps” and a “new Europe is being born of the yellow vests”. France said the comments were an unacceptable “provocation”.

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Announcing the immediate return to Paris of its ambassador for talks, the French foreign office said in a statement: “For several months, France has been the target of repeated, baseless attacks and outrageous statements. Having disagreements is one thing but manipulating the relationship for electoral aims is another.

“All of these actions are creating a serious situation which is raising questions about the Italian government’s intentions towards France.”

Salvini responded by saying the Italian government did not want to fall out with France and suggested a meeting with Macron to fix the relationship.

“I don’t want to row with anyone, I’m prepared to go to Paris, even by foot, to discuss the many issues we have,” he said.

But, in a further dig at Macron, he said France must first address three issues: French police must stop pushing migrants back into Italy, end lengthy border checks blocking traffic and hand over around 15 Italian leftist militants who have taken refuge in France in recent decades.

Luigi Di Maio, fourth from right, meets with European parliamentary candidates standing in France on a gilets jaunes list.
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Luigi Di Maio, fourth from right, meets European parliamentary candidates standing in France on a gilets jaunes list. Photograph: Facebook / Luigi Di Maio
The long-running political spat between Italy and France has been viewed as the biggest bust-up between the countries since 1945. Both sides were initially seen to be using their differences for electoral reasons: Salvini to push his far-right agenda and Macron to style himself as a centrist counterweight against populism in May’s European parliamentary elections.

Relations soured after Italy’s populist government came to power last June. Macron, who was under pressure at home for not accepting the Aquarius migrant ship that Salvini turned away from Italian ports, said populism was spreading across Europe “a bit like leprosy”.

He did not name Italy but the leprosy comment was taken to be directly aimed at Rome.

Salvini has called Macron a dire French president. “I hope the French will be able to free themselves of a terrible president,” he said in one Facebook video, urging French voters not to back Macron’s La République En Marche party in the European vote.

Salvini is close to Macron’s presidential rival, the French far-right leader, Marine Le Pen, whose National Rally party is currently neck and neck with Macron’s in polls before the European elections.

Di Maio last month accused France of impoverishing Africa and bringing on the migration crisis. He said France was encouraging immigration to Europe “because European countries, France above all, have never stopped colonising dozens of African countries”. Furious, the French foreign office immediately summoned the Italian envoy in France for talks over what it called “hostile” remarks.

Already, relations were so strained that France and Italy failed to hold a traditional joint summit last year. Tensions had been mounting steadily over immigration and France’s role in the 2011 military intervention in Libya.

The countries have even been at odds about celebrations for the Renaissance master Leonardo da Vinci, with Italy raising doubts about loaning works for a major commemoration show at Paris’s Louvre museum.

During a visit to Egypt last month, Macron sought to shrug off the sparring, dismissing Salvini and Di Maio’s comments as “insignificant”.

The French Europe minister, Nathalie Loiseau, told France Inter radio: “We don’t have the same political choices as Matteo Salvini’s League or Luigi Di Maio’s Five Star Movement, but everyone should prioritise the chief concern of dealing with their own country’s affairs and ensuring good relations with neighbours.”

Additional reporting by Angela Giuffrida in Pescara

FYI, I'm with Macron here. He's far from perfect, but Centrists over fascists any day of the week.

But this sort of thing does not bode well for the future of the EU, or the future stability of Europe.

[His Divine Shadow]

Problem with centrists is they create the foundations for fascists to flourish. It's like saying I'd rather have cigarettes than cancer.

And the EU had it's chance. It signed it's own end with the euro and then with it's reactions to the 2008 crisis and the fallout from that.

[The Romulan Republic]

Problem with centrists is they create the foundations for fascists to flourish. It's like saying I'd rather have cigarettes than cancer.

And the EU had it's chance. It signed it's own end with the euro and then with it's reactions to the 2008 crisis and the fallout from that.

So in other words, your are going to completely side with the fascists in this. Got it.

God knows there were lots of problems with status quo of the previous decade. But I am sick of the response to fascism automatically being "how can we blame the Centrists". Because at some point, you're just giving cover to the fascists, implicitly portraying them as a sympathetic/justified reaction, and effectively leaguing yourself with them because you don't care if women and minorities and basic civil liberties are trampled underfoot as long as you get to bash the "establishment".

I saw plenty of that crap from Bernie or Busters in 2016, and I've spent the last two years watching the results.

[Crazedwraith]

Problem with centrists is they create the foundations for fascists to flourish. It's like saying I'd rather have cigarettes than cancer.

And the EU had it's chance. It signed it's own end with the euro and then with it's reactions to the 2008 crisis and the fallout from that.

I have to agree with TRR, this seems tangential at best to the article in the opening post.

[Tribble]

Problem with centrists is they create the foundations for fascists to flourish. It's like saying I'd rather have cigarettes than cancer.

And the EU had it's chance. It signed it's own end with the euro and then with it's reactions to the 2008 crisis and the fallout from that.

I have to agree with TRR, this seems tangential at best to the article in the opening post.

Tangential perhaps, but important. Political crises like this one are more the symptoms of the underlying flaws of the EU's status quo than anything else.

[The Romulan Republic]

Problem with centrists is they create the foundations for fascists to flourish. It's like saying I'd rather have cigarettes than cancer.

And the EU had it's chance. It signed it's own end with the euro and then with it's reactions to the 2008 crisis and the fallout from that.

I have to agree with TRR, this seems tangential at best to the article in the opening post.

Tangential perhaps, but important. Political crises like this one are more the symptoms of the underlying flaws of the EU's status quo than anything else.

Well they're also, you know, symptoms of racism, xenophobia, and misogyny. Treating it as just a backlash to the flaws of the status quo implicitly treats fascism as a sympathetic or even justified response, as though fascists are just the victims fighting back against oppression rather than those who actively seeking to be the ones putting a jackboot to everybody else's throat.

[Tribble]

I have to agree with TRR, this seems tangential at best to the article in the opening post.

Tangential perhaps, but important. Political crises like this one are more the symptoms of the underlying flaws of the EU's status quo than anything else.

Well they're also, you know, symptoms of racism, xenophobia, and misogyny. Treating it as just a backlash to the flaws of the status quo implicitly treats fascism as a sympathetic or even justified response, as though fascists are just the victims fighting back against oppression rather than those who actively seeking to be the ones putting a jackboot to everybody else's throat.

There is a big difference between "here are some underlying causes which have helped lead to the rise of extremism" and "I support extremism!" Please pay attention to what has been said.

Neither of us have expressed in this thread
support for extremism, merely that it is a more or less predictable and inevitable consequence based on the EUs (and particularly the Eurozone's) status quo. Do I agree with the extremists? No. Am I surprised that they are becoming more prevalent? No.

Racism, xenophobia, misogyny are all big factors to be sure, but the EU as it currently stands is basically the equivalent of throwing gasoline on the fire, then wondering why things are getting hot. The EU (and especially the Eurozone) is inherently unstable in its current form, and this lastest diplomatic spat is just another symptom of that instability imo.

[Crazedwraith]

No one seems very interested in expanding on why the EU is to blame and taking it as self-evident.

The Migrant crisis and other issues would surely be causing friction whether or not the EU existed wouldn't it?

[Tribble]

No one seems very interested in expanding on why the EU is to blame and taking it as self-evident.

The Migrant crisis and other issues would surely be causing friction whether or not the EU existed wouldn't it?

I've discussed this before on other threads (mostly with Thanas). I could start another if you'd like, as I guess this isnt the best thread for that.

Short version- the EU is in the rough equivalent of the US Articles of Conferderation politically and economically speaking, and it turns out that doesnt work so well. This is combined with the lack of political will and credibility to make the necessary reforms. They are in a tough spot, unfortunately.

[The Romulan Republic]

I know exactly what you both are saying. And yet, in both cases, your focus seems to be on how fascism is the Center's fault. You may say that with the best of intentions, it may even have an element of truth to it, but to put the focus there is giving the fascists far more credit than they deserve. They are not simply a predictable response to Centrist apathy or corruption. At worst, the Centrists merely gave them an opening. The fascists exploited it ruthlessly, in order to pursue their ultimate goals of slavery, genocide, and despotism.

As to the EU, I think that it is a very worthwhile experiment. Properly executed, it could be a step towards global unity, and in the meantime a non-authoritarian check on the US as a global hegemon, a new superpower alongside the US and China and/or Russia. The problems its undergoing, though, I argree seem to be essentially the same as those undergone by the United States in its early years- trying to weld a bunch of separate states into a unified whole, and trying to figure out where to draw the line on Federal vs. individual member state authority, and then ending up with a mess that is neither really sovereign states or a unified nation. Bear in mind that it took the US over 80 years, writing a new constitution, and ultimately fighting an extraordinarily bloody civil war the aftermath of which still weighs heavily on this country, in order to sort out those questions and assert that the Federal government, not the individual member states, were preeminent. So I don't think that a united Europe is an inherently bad or unworkable idea- its just one that takes a lot of time, trial and error, and quite possibly a war to get to work, because nationalism. Its really rather impressive that its come as far as quickly as it has.

Also, the US had the advantage of having a shared history of revolting against a powerful common enemy to tie them together. The EU doesn't, really. The only nation right now that could serve as a unifying common enemy on that scale is Putin's Russia (well, the fascists want to use Muslim immigrants as the enemy, but that is obviously not acceptable nor based in reality). However, Putin has infiltrated the governments of enough European nations that he is simply accelerating its collapse, not providing a common cause for Europe to rally against. Basically, it seems like you can't defeat Putin without uniting Europe, and you can't unite Europe without defeating Putin. Hopefully some other unifying common cause can be found. For a time, that was "we want a united Europe because we don't want to return to the nationalist Europe that gave the world two world wars and the Cold War". But no one seems to remember that point any more.

[Tribble]

I know exactly what you both are saying. And yet, in both cases, your focus seems to be on how fascism is the Center's fault.

No, I stated that the current political and economic makeup of the EU (and in particular the Eurozone) is unstable, untenable, and helps provide a breeding ground for extremists. It's both too big (in terms of membership (with countries having drastically different economies and political cultures) and too small (in terms of political and economic powers) to work properly and effectively.

You may say that with the best of intentions, it may even have an element of truth to it, but to put the focus there is giving the fascists far more credit than they deserve. They are not simply a predictable response to Centrist apathy or corruption. At worst, the Centrists merely gave them an opening. The fascists exploited it ruthlessly, in order to pursue their ultimate goals of slavery, genocide, and despotism.

Yes, the current rise of extremism in the EU (and especially the Eurozone) was pretty predictable given their structural issues... hell even I saw it coming and have been warning about it for years, and I'm not exactly the sharpest tool in the crayon box. Who in their right mind for example seriously believed that economies of countries like Greece and Germany should share a single currency? And without mechanisms like a fiscal transfer system?

As to the EU, I think that it is a very worthwhile experiment. Properly executed, it could be a step towards global unity, and in the meantime a non-a uthoritarian check on the US as a global hegemon, a new superpower alongside the US and China and/or Russia. The problems its undergoing, though, I argree seem to be essentially the same as those undergone by the United States in its early years- trying to weld a bunch of separate states into a unified whole, and trying to figure out where to draw the line on Federal vs. individual member state authority, and then ending up with a mess that is neither really sovereign states or a unified nation. Bear in mind that it took the US over 80 years, writing a new constitution, and ultimately fighting an extraordinarily bloody civil war the aftermath of which still weighs heavily on this country, in order to sort out those questions and assert that the Federal government, not the individual member states, were preeminent. So I don't think that a united Europe is an inherently bad or unworkable idea- its just one that takes a lot of time, trial and error, and quite possibly a war to get to work, because nationalism. Its really rather impressive that its come as far as quickly as it has.

Also, the US had the advantage of having a shared history of revolting against a powerful common enemy to tie them together. The EU doesn't, really. The only nation right now that could serve as a unifying common enemy on that scale is Putin's Russia (well, the fascists want to use Muslim immigrants as the enemy, but that is obviously not acceptable nor based in reality). However, Putin has infiltrated the governments of enough European nations that he is simply accelerating its collapse, not providing a common cause for Europe to rally against. Basically, it seems like you can't defeat Putin without uniting Europe, and you can't unite Europe without defeating Putin. Hopefully some other unifying common cause can be found. For a time, that was "we want a united Europe because we don't want to return to the nationalist Europe that gave the world two world wars and the Cold War". But no one seems to remember that point any more.

I didn't say that a united Europe is a bad thing. On the contrary, I'm all for the EU becoming a single federated state like the USA or Canada. The point though is that at the moment it isn't one nor (for various reasons) does their appear to be any ability to make the meaningful changes required to do so. At least for now. And that's causing massive problems.


The biggest flaw in the EU architects' line of thinking IMO was that they believed that you could get an "ever closer union" of Europe gradually and without real interruption. I'm sure they believed at the time that by now the EU would be far more advanced in becoming a single state than it is today. Unfortunately that has proven to be false (which is something the US to its credit figured out pretty quick, which is a big reason why they dropped the Articles of Confederation in favour of creating their current constitution).

[The Romulan Republic]

Frankly, if the way this ended (however unrealistic it may be) was a Franco-German alliance (of all the ways Europe could go, that would be one of the more historically ironic) imposing a Federal Europe on the Neo-fascists by force, I'd probably be okay with that at this point. Because fuck fascists. It took a civil war to crush the Southern Slavocrats and create a United States, and maybe it'll take one to crush the Neo-Fascists and create a United Europe. On the other hand, though, if two world wars didn't do it, I'm not sure why another European war would.

And with Putin's involvement it could easily lead to global nuclear war, which is pretty much going to be the greater evil in any scenario short of the total extinction of humanity.

I wish I knew the way out of this problem.

Edit: But if it becomes a choice between surrendering Europe to fascism, and marching off to war once again, then let it be war. Because fuck fascism, whatever the cost.

[J]

The EU is slavery and it's working as planned by its masters. Soon, the PIIGS will see their demise.
All is proceeding as foreseen.

[The Romulan Republic]

TROOOLLLLL in the dungeon!

Thought you ought to know. (faints)

[J]

You do not understand what the EU is or how it works. Spain, Portugal, and Greece have already been enslaved by the central powers, Italy and Ireland are next.

[The Romulan Republic]

I know that your vision of the EU seems to be lifted straight from Alt. Reich Deep State black helicopter New World Order conspiracy crap.

I also think that describing the status of Spain, Portugal, and Greece as "slavery" is profoundly insulting to anyone who has actually suffered under true slavery.

[J]

K A Pital, His Divine Shadow, and myself all stated many years ago that the EU was destined for the fate that it's currently suffering. It was an idealistic construct which was doomed to fail in the way we said it would. At its core, it's an economic union which works greatly to the benefit of the Germany, France, and the other central powers at the expense of the periphery, it's functional in boom times but unsustainable in the long run without large transfers & subsidies to the weaker nations.

If you want to put it bluntly, the EU is gilded age capitalism on an international scale; we exploit poor nations via currency controls & economic policies and transfer wealth from the poor to the rich.

[The Romulan Republic]

"Deeply flawed" and "destined to fail" are two very different things. I'm sure someone looking at the Articles of Confederation United States could have reasonably concluded that it was "destined to fail". I believe the EU is simply too new an experiment to say whether what it is experiencing now are growing pains that will eventually be overcome, or the beginning of the end.

K. A. Pital will of course predict its failure, as will others who share his views, because as I understand it, he's a Marxist, and Marxism requires the EU to fail as part of its view of history. He's essentially just following the prophecies of his religion.

[His Divine Shadow]

Problem with centrists is they create the foundations for fascists to flourish. It's like saying I'd rather have cigarettes than cancer.

And the EU had it's chance. It signed it's own end with the euro and then with it's reactions to the 2008 crisis and the fallout from that.

So in other words, your are going to completely side with the fascists in this. Got it.

God knows there were lots of problems with status quo of the previous decade. But I am sick of the response to fascism automatically being "how can we blame the Centrists". Because at some point, you're just giving cover to the fascists, implicitly portraying them as a sympathetic/justified reaction, and effectively leaguing yourself with them because you don't care if women and minorities and basic civil liberties are trampled underfoot as long as you get to bash the "establishment".

I saw plenty of that crap from Bernie or Busters in 2016, and I've spent the last two years watching the results.

But all you are doing is making it better for the fascists in the long run, so how come I am the one who is the fascist here? And centrists always side against socialists as well when given a chance so they and their defenders are the ones helping fascism return, not I.

For people who don't know what the EU has done, I've posted plenty of links to Mark Blyth and Yanis Varoufakis who will in detail lay out for you how the EU fucked itself in the ass all the way back to the maastritch treaty and again how they dealt with the recession. I doubt most actually watched those videos, but it can't be condensed either because when I try that, I get replies like the ones I get now.

[His Divine Shadow]

Short version- the EU is in the rough equivalent of the US Articles of Conferderation politically and economically speaking, and it turns out that doesnt work so well. This is combined with the lack of political will and credibility to make the necessary reforms. They are in a tough spot, unfortunately.

The EU would have worked fine as a confederation and it's problems are not analogous to the US, the fatal mistake the EU did (aside from neoliberalism) was is going for a monetary union while being a confederation. You must federate and integrate the economics of these countries completely before the monetary union. They put the cart before the horse, and worse yet, they knew this would happen. They counted on it to happen, they expected the crisis the euro would create would force people to turn the EU into a full federation, they gambled on this. It backfired.

Varoufakis onthis exact thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhSg9X3q2gc&t=1400

See the video from the start for more details on why the euro is dumb as shit.

The EU tried to build something on a heap of lies and now it reaps its own rewards. Coulda had an sorta OK confederation there but it's never enough is it...

[The Romulan Republic]

You may not be a fascist, but you are choosing to provide cover for them to pursue issues you think are more important than fascism.

But sure, ignore the point and just say "I'm not the fascist, you are" like that's some sort of rebuttal beyond a kindergartner shouting "I know you are but what am I?" or "He who smelt it dealt it".

By the way, you're not the first person on this board who has tried to portray me as a fascist despite it being an utterly laughable and transparent lie which contradicts pretty much everything I have ever posted here- its nearing the point of being a campaign of defamation, in my opinion.

[His Divine Shadow]

The issues that are more important than fascism, as you put it, are the root causes of fascism in the first place. In this the difference between us is you are putting a bandage on a cancer patient while I am looking for the tumors.

[His Divine Shadow]

You may not be a fascist, but you are choosing to provide cover for them to pursue issues you think are more important than fascism.

But sure, ignore the point and just say "I'm not the fascist, you are" like that's some sort of rebuttal beyond a kindergartner shouting "I know you are but what am I?" or "He who smelt it dealt it".

By the way, you're not the first person on this board who has tried to portray me as a fascist despite it being an utterly laughable and transparent lie which contradicts pretty much everything I have ever posted here- its nearing the point of being a campaign of defamation, in my opinion.

Also on second reading this is some hilarious kindergarden level shit from you, look at your literal post to me. All I did was turn your argument back on you and now you pout like a toddler.

[The Romulan Republic]

You may not be a fascist, but you are choosing to provide cover for them to pursue issues you think are more important than fascism.

But sure, ignore the point and just say "I'm not the fascist, you are" like that's some sort of rebuttal beyond a kindergartner shouting "I know you are but what am I?" or "He who smelt it dealt it".

By the way, you're not the first person on this board who has tried to portray me as a fascist despite it being an utterly laughable and transparent lie which contradicts pretty much everything I have ever posted here- its nearing the point of being a campaign of defamation, in my opinion.

Also on second reading this is some hilarious kindergarden level shit from you, look at your literal post to me. All I did was turn your argument back on you and now you pout like a toddler.

One, technically, I don't believe that I actually called you a fascist. I said that you were siding with them in this case, and that your fixation on blaming Centrists was providing cover for them and portraying them (implicitly) as justified. All of which I stand by.

Two, no, "both sides" are not always equally justified. I know that that flies against everything Bernie or Buster Anti-establishment trolls hold sacred, but if (hypothetically) I called you a fascist for aligning yourself with fascists, you are not automatically equally justified in calling me a fascist, and I am not behaving like a toddler because I refuse to suck it up and take it. Treating both sides as equal is not "fair" if the two sides are objectively arguing different positions.

Hell, you probably would root for Trump if he called all the Democratic leadership fascist rapists colluding with Russia. Because they said it to him first, so its fair, right? Besides, Both Sides! Both Sides!

Three, I am not going to waste any more time arguing with "I know you are but what am I". Frankly, I have better shit to do with my life.

[His Divine Shadow]

Listen, you called me a defender of fascism, I said "actually, couldn't the same be said of you because of reasons?" you melt down like chernobyl.

EDIT: And I never actually aligned with fascists anywhere either, infact the way you are behaving it's just embarrasing.