On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
His Divine Shadow
Commence Primary Ignition
Posts: 12791
Joined: 2002-07-03 07:22am
Location: Finland, west coast

On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by His Divine Shadow »

Here's an interesting counterpoint to the prevailing view that "globalization has lifted billions out of poverty", which before this article, I felt just plain ignored that the world would probably have continued to improve with or without globalization.

https://www.jasonhickel.org/blog/2019/2 ... al-poverty
Dear Steven,

I’m writing to respond to a letter you posted regarding claims I made in the Guardian about the global poverty narrative. I’m addressing you directly because I think it’s preferable to engaging in back-channel debates, and because I’d like to invite you to respond to what follows. This is an important question and it demands serious, honest engagement.

The point of my piece was that the story of global poverty is more complex than you and Gates have been willing to acknowledge, and the data do not support your narrative about neoliberal globalization. Let me elaborate on my key points here, to clear up any confusion, while also addressing your specific comments.

...

But what’s really at stake here for you, as your letter reveals, is the free-market narrative that you have constructed. Your argument is that neoliberal capitalism is responsible for driving the most substantial gains against poverty. This claim is intellectually dishonest, and unsupported by facts. Here’s why:

The vast majority of gains against poverty have happened in one region: East Asia. As it happens, the economic success of China and the East Asian tigers – as scholars like Ha-Joon Chang and Robert Wade have long pointed out – is due not to the neoliberal markets that you espouse but rather state-led industrial policy, protectionism and regulation (the same measures that Western nations used to such great effect during their own period of industrial consolidation). They liberalized, to be sure – but they did so gradually and on their own terms.

Not so for the rest of the global South. Indeed, these policy options were systematically denied to them, and destroyed where they already existed. From 1980 to 2000, the IMF and World Bank imposed brutal structural adjustment programs that did exactly the opposite: slashing tariffs, subsidies, social spending and capital controls while reversing land reforms and privatizing public assets – all in the face of massive public resistance. During this period, the number of people in poverty outside China increased by 1.3 billion. In fact, even the proportion of people living in poverty (to use your preferred method) increased, from 62% to 68%. (For detailed economic data and references to the relevant literature, see Chapter 5 of The Divide).

...

But there is something else that needs to be said here. You and Gates like to invoke the poverty numbers to make claims about the legitimacy of the existing global economic system. You say the system is working for the poor, so people should stop complaining about it.

When it comes to assessing such a claim, it’s really neither absolute numbers nor proportions that matter. What matters, rather, is the extent of global poverty vis-à-vis our capacity to end it. As I have pointed out before, our capacity to end poverty (e.g., the cost of ending poverty as a proportion of the income of the non-poor) has increased many times faster than the proportional poverty rate has decreased (to use your preferred measure again). By this metric we are doing worse than ever before. Indeed, our civilization is regressing. Why? Because the vast majority of the yields of our global economy are being captured by the world’s rich.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by The Romulan Republic »

It irritates me to see "globalization" treated as a synonym for "global free-market capitalism". I am in no way a defender of free market capitalism, but I consider myself a globalist in the sense that I believe the positive value of global infrastructure and mass communications, addressing global problems internationally, international law, and ultimately a move towards a global government based on democratic socialist lines. I am a globalist socialist.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
aerius
Charismatic Cult Leader
Posts: 14800
Joined: 2002-08-18 07:27pm

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by aerius »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-02-15 09:57pm It irritates me to see "globalization" treated as a synonym for "global free-market capitalism". I am in no way a defender of free market capitalism, but I consider myself a globalist in the sense that I believe the positive value of global infrastructure and mass communications, addressing global problems internationally, international law, and ultimately a move towards a global government based on democratic socialist lines. I am a globalist socialist.
And yet you support the EU, TPP, and various other arrangements which were designed to promote global free market capitalism and exploitation.
Image
aerius: I'll vote for you if you sleep with me. :)
Lusankya: Deal!
Say, do you want it to be a threesome with your wife? Or a foursome with your wife and sister-in-law? I'm up for either. :P
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by The Romulan Republic »

aerius wrote: 2019-02-15 10:16pm
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-02-15 09:57pm It irritates me to see "globalization" treated as a synonym for "global free-market capitalism". I am in no way a defender of free market capitalism, but I consider myself a globalist in the sense that I believe the positive value of global infrastructure and mass communications, addressing global problems internationally, international law, and ultimately a move towards a global government based on democratic socialist lines. I am a globalist socialist.
And yet you support the EU, TPP, and various other arrangements which were designed to promote global free market capitalism and exploitation.
Cite where I have ever supported the TPP please. You don't get to just put words in my mouth.

As to the EU, I support a political union of Europe, not a capitalist free market (hey, isn't one of those things the anti-EU crowd are always whinging about the excessive regulations of the EU on business?).
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by mr friendly guy »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnW9ZQtI1_E

We can see how the EU economic policy devastate African economies in agriculture. Generally Asian countries which eventually became rich eg some ASEAN ones, Japan, and countries which are powerhouses but not yet rich eg China and the West at the beginning used protectionist measures while their nascent industries formed. Unfortunately in the agriculture sector, the EU isn't giving African countries that luxury. But don't worry, its Chinese loans these Africans need to be worried. :lol:

In this case, globalisation at least by the EU policies aren't helping Africa.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by K. A. Pital »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-02-15 09:57pm It irritates me to see "globalization" treated as a synonym for "global free-market capitalism". I am in no way a defender of free market capitalism, but I consider myself a globalist in the sense that I believe the positive value of global infrastructure and mass communications, addressing global problems internationally, international law, and ultimately a move towards a global government based on democratic socialist lines. I am a globalist socialist.
But there is no other globalization than the free-market capitalist one. All non-capitalist societies have been ruthlessly destroyed, solidarity structures like unions and national governments weakened, coopted or dismantled entirely, and indigenous people are being murdered in the name of global corporations’ profits every day.

If you support this, well...
Image
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by The Romulan Republic »

K. A. Pital wrote: 2019-02-16 06:16am
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-02-15 09:57pm It irritates me to see "globalization" treated as a synonym for "global free-market capitalism". I am in no way a defender of free market capitalism, but I consider myself a globalist in the sense that I believe the positive value of global infrastructure and mass communications, addressing global problems internationally, international law, and ultimately a move towards a global government based on democratic socialist lines. I am a globalist socialist.
But there is no other globalization than the free-market capitalist one. All non-capitalist societies have been ruthlessly destroyed, solidarity structures like unions and national governments weakened, coopted or dismantled entirely, and indigenous people are being murdered in the name of global corporations’ profits every day.

If you support this, well...
Image
So your position is "Any form of global cooperation or communication must be capitalist in nature, and if you support it, you therefore support capitalism?"

Either I'm misunderstanding you, or this is a very black and white view which is essentially misrepresenting what it is I support in order to force my views to conform to your ideological paradigm.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Alferd Packer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3706
Joined: 2002-07-19 09:22pm
Location: Slumgullion Pass
Contact:

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by Alferd Packer »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-02-16 06:19pm So your position is "Any form of global cooperation or communication must be capitalist in nature, and if you support it, you therefore support capitalism?"

Either I'm misunderstanding you, or this is a very black and white view which is essentially misrepresenting what it is I support in order to force my views to conform to your ideological paradigm.
At the risk of putting words in Stas' mouth, it's not 'must,' but 'is.'

We had half a century of naked competition between global communism and global capitalism, and capitalism won. The debate has, for now, ended. Therefore, global structures of communication and cooperation are, by definition, capitalist in nature. Or, put another way: it didn't have to be this way, but it is this way.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation." -Herbert Spencer

"Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain." - Schiller, Die Jungfrau von Orleans, III vi.
User avatar
GrosseAdmiralFox
Padawan Learner
Posts: 481
Joined: 2019-01-20 01:28pm

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox »

A sentiment from Front Mission is probably the most prudent here: Globalism can be bad, but no globalism is WORSE. Remember, Globalism was specifically designed to counter certain assumptions of how WW1 and WW2 came about, particularly that insular economies fostered a situation where war is inevitable, especially when economics is assumed to be a zero sum game.

Globalism was designed to replace imperialism and shatter the assumption of economics as a zero sum game with nation-states. Problem is that while nation-states started to turn away from economics as a zero sum game, corporations didn't.

So to say 'down with globalism!' is stupid, as that'll cause a return to Imperialism one way or another and kickstart a series of resource-focused conflicts.
User avatar
His Divine Shadow
Commence Primary Ignition
Posts: 12791
Joined: 2002-07-03 07:22am
Location: Finland, west coast

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by His Divine Shadow »

The world before WW1 erupted was extremely globalized so that's just another myth busted to me, and we still have plenty of wars today (they just don't affect us directly) so I don't see that argument as convincing either.

No I am thinking of the world during the bretton woods era and later as well, it was still somewhat globalized and something like that is what we ought to aim for instead of todays hyper-globalization which began in the late 1980s. The first step is to end the free movement of capital. There are degrees to globalization and we've gone too far in one direction. We're in a race to the bototm.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
User avatar
GrosseAdmiralFox
Padawan Learner
Posts: 481
Joined: 2019-01-20 01:28pm

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox »

His Divine Shadow wrote: 2019-02-17 02:20am The world before WW1 erupted was extremely globalized so that's just another myth busted to me, and we still have plenty of wars today (they just don't affect us directly) so I don't see that argument as convincing either.

No I am thinking of the world during the bretton woods era and later as well, it was still somewhat globalized and something like that is what we ought to aim for instead of todays hyper-globalization which began in the late 1980s. The first step is to end the free movement of capital. There are degrees to globalization and we've gone too far in one direction. We're in a race to the bototm.
Not exactly, from what I can tell. A lot of what caused WW1 can be attributed to 'idiots with more nationalism than sense', out of the three cousins involved one of them was too insecure and manipulable to stop the entire thing from starting, geopolitical goals being impossible in reality (Britain's geopolitical goal of keeping Europe divided when the reality was it wasn't possible anymore being the most egregious of these), and resources. You could say that the world was globalized during the Imperialism era, but that isn't really the case from what I've heard. For the most part, the colonial empires were incredibly insular, preferring to exploit their colonies than do international trade unless they absolutely have to (like Chile and it's nitrate production which EVERYONE had to trade for due to the fact that nitrate mining was poor everywhere else and nitrate fixation was too expensive to industrialize until Germany developed the Harber Process during WW1, this made Chile fabulously rich until the Harber Process proliferated).

Germany, when it was united after the Franco-Prussian War, was basically locked out of many markets due to Imperialism and the resulting protectionist policies that were instituted (and the fact that Britain all but worshiped it's geopolitical 'keep Europe weak as shit' goal like a fucking religion). To give us some perspective in this, say that tomorrow, the entire EU signs a few papers and becomes one nation, with a united economic system, military, and the like, but Russia and the US screws them over by forcing them to buy vital resources (like, say, oil) at a greatly inflated pricetag. That was Germany (and other non-colonial powers) in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

A lot of wars had deep economic ties to them, despite the fact that a non-insignificant portion of them being ideological. Get rid of globalization, you'll see resource wars start cropping up. All Bretton-Woods did was basically bribe everyone to not cause a resource-driven war.
User avatar
His Divine Shadow
Commence Primary Ignition
Posts: 12791
Joined: 2002-07-03 07:22am
Location: Finland, west coast

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by His Divine Shadow »

Experts disagree
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... rld-war-i/

You can keep on wasting time trying to highlight single instances and differences between today and then as if that means something to the overall picture. We have tarrifs and embargoes and bad relations in todays globalized world as well. A lot of your argument is also based on a strawman argument of the world going totally north korea if we don't accept todays modern hyperglobalization. As if those are the only alternatives.

P.S. I would also say that todays global world very much reminds me of the old imperial eras, with the western world exploiting the global south as was usual then.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by K. A. Pital »

Resource wars are happening.

By inducing global climate change, the hyperindustrial societies have caused calamitous droughts and food shortages in the Middle East, plunging it into a bloodbath.

The fact that one of the largest refugee crises on Earth happened in the early XXI century and shows no signs of abating should be evidence to that.

So yes, down with globalism.
“TRR” wrote:Any form of global cooperation or communication must be capitalist in nature, and if you support it, you therefore support capitalism?
Not “must”, but practically is. And anything else is either a non-entity at all or is actually being subject to genocide by global capitalism as we speak, like the indigenous people in Brazil.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
ray245
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7955
Joined: 2005-06-10 11:30pm

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by ray245 »

His Divine Shadow wrote: 2019-02-17 02:20am The world before WW1 erupted was extremely globalized so that's just another myth busted to me, and we still have plenty of wars today (they just don't affect us directly) so I don't see that argument as convincing either.

No I am thinking of the world during the bretton woods era and later as well, it was still somewhat globalized and something like that is what we ought to aim for instead of todays hyper-globalization which began in the late 1980s. The first step is to end the free movement of capital. There are degrees to globalization and we've gone too far in one direction. We're in a race to the bototm.
Historians by and large think the world pre WW1 is even more gobalised than the world today.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
Proletarian
Youngling
Posts: 66
Joined: 2018-12-29 08:09pm

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by Proletarian »

K. A. Pital wrote: 2019-02-16 06:16am
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-02-15 09:57pm It irritates me to see "globalization" treated as a synonym for "global free-market capitalism". I am in no way a defender of free market capitalism, but I consider myself a globalist in the sense that I believe the positive value of global infrastructure and mass communications, addressing global problems internationally, international law, and ultimately a move towards a global government based on democratic socialist lines. I am a globalist socialist.
But there is no other globalization than the free-market capitalist one. All non-capitalist societies have been ruthlessly destroyed, solidarity structures like unions and national governments weakened, coopted or dismantled entirely, and indigenous people are being murdered in the name of global corporations’ profits every day.

If you support this, well...
Image

To be sure. However, from a socialist perspective it is precisely this phenomenon which creates the preconditions necessary for the abolition of class society.


Public Speech by Karl Marx before the Democratic Association of Brussels January 9, 1848.
... the protectionist system is nothing but a means of establishing large-scale industry in any given country, that is to say, of making it dependent upon the world market, and from the moment that dependence upon the world market is established, there is already more or less dependence upon free trade. Besides this, the protective system helps to develop free trade competition within a country. Hence we see that in countries where the bourgeoisie is beginning to make itself felt as a class, in Germany for example, it makes great efforts to obtain protective duties. They serve the bourgeoisie as weapons against feudalism and absolute government, as a means for the concentration of its own powers and for the realization of free trade within the same country.

But, in general, the protective system of our day is conservative, while the free trade system is destructive. It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point. In a word, the free trade system hastens the social revolution. It is in this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, that I vote in favor of free trade.
All theories (bourgeois, fascist, Stalinist, Labourite, left-wing, or far-leftist) which somehow glorify and praise the proletariat as it is and claim for it the positive role of defending values and regenerating society, are anti-revolutionary.
- Gilles Dauvé
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by K. A. Pital »

Proletarian wrote: 2019-02-17 01:58pmTo be sure. However, from a socialist perspective it is precisely this phenomenon which creates the preconditions necessary for the abolition of class society.
From a socialist perspective 150 years ago - yes. It may still be true, but there is little need to applause every bit of crushing brutality along the way. Marx didn't exactly cheer the fact that the plains of India were covered with the bones of the weavers.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
Proletarian
Youngling
Posts: 66
Joined: 2018-12-29 08:09pm

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by Proletarian »

K. A. Pital wrote: 2019-02-17 03:52pm
Proletarian wrote: 2019-02-17 01:58pmTo be sure. However, from a socialist perspective it is precisely this phenomenon which creates the preconditions necessary for the abolition of class society.
From a socialist perspective 150 years ago - yes. It may still be true, but there is little need to applause every bit of crushing brutality along the way. Marx didn't exactly cheer the fact that the plains of India were covered with the bones of the weavers.
It almost doesn't matter what you or I 'applaud'; Capital functions quite independently of the individual wishes of anyone subject to it, even of the wishes of the bourgeoisie.

Capital cannot help but 'internationalize' itself, and the autarkic fantasies of our new crop of nationalists are pipe dreams. This is best demonstrated politically, in the attempts of various nationalists (Steve Bannon, Nigel Farage, Marine le Pen et al.) to construct a kind of Counter-International. Globalism is built into capitalism, and cannot be escaped; that a particular capitalist country should return to developmental economics in the form of protectionism is nothing other thsn an admission by that country that it is not currently fit to compete in the world market.

Every nation would like to re-shuffle the deck of global trade relations, the better to stack it in its favor. Not one - and I include here those nations of the former Soviet bloc, none of which was able to abolish the commodity production at the heart of the capitalist system - is capable of doing away with those relations. This is why Trump has always hedged on the subject, rhetorically embracing 'fair trade', which, of course, is still trade. And the impulse to protect domestic industry from foreign predation is tantamount to an admission both that the current state of home production is not capable of doing the job but that it will be made to be.

This is one of the essential contradictions at the heart of capitalist political economy: those institutions and figures most devoted to nationalism as a political project are also the most invested in the system which makes nationalism impossible.

The alternative to capitalist globalism is not nationalistic autarky, much less "socialism" in one country, but international proletarian revolution. That revolution is (A) not a political event, but the abolition of politics; and (B) essentially negative, rather than constructive, in its relation to the form of social organization out of which it emerges.
All theories (bourgeois, fascist, Stalinist, Labourite, left-wing, or far-leftist) which somehow glorify and praise the proletariat as it is and claim for it the positive role of defending values and regenerating society, are anti-revolutionary.
- Gilles Dauvé
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by The Romulan Republic »

K. A. Pital wrote: 2019-02-17 05:22am Resource wars are happening.

By inducing global climate change, the hyperindustrial societies have caused calamitous droughts and food shortages in the Middle East, plunging it into a bloodbath.

The fact that one of the largest refugee crises on Earth happened in the early XXI century and shows no signs of abating should be evidence to that.

So yes, down with globalism.
“TRR” wrote:Any form of global cooperation or communication must be capitalist in nature, and if you support it, you therefore support capitalism?
Not “must”, but practically is. And anything else is either a non-entity at all or is actually being subject to genocide by global capitalism as we speak, like the indigenous people in Brazil.
If the status quo is unsatisfactory, then work to change it, but do not fall into a false dichotomy. The danger of presuming that all globalization is capitalist oppression is that it leads to the conclusion that the only alternative is xenophobic nationalism and, well... that's how you get Donald Trump as President.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
Proletarian
Youngling
Posts: 66
Joined: 2018-12-29 08:09pm

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by Proletarian »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-02-17 08:25pm
K. A. Pital wrote: 2019-02-17 05:22am Resource wars are happening.

By inducing global climate change, the hyperindustrial societies have caused calamitous droughts and food shortages in the Middle East, plunging it into a bloodbath.

The fact that one of the largest refugee crises on Earth happened in the early XXI century and shows no signs of abating should be evidence to that.

So yes, down with globalism.
“TRR” wrote:Any form of global cooperation or communication must be capitalist in nature, and if you support it, you therefore support capitalism?
Not “must”, but practically is. And anything else is either a non-entity at all or is actually being subject to genocide by global capitalism as we speak, like the indigenous people in Brazil.
If the status quo is unsatisfactory, then work to change it, but do not fall into a false dichotomy. The danger of presuming that all globalization is capitalist oppression is that it leads to the conclusion that the only alternative is xenophobic nationalism and, well... that's how you get Donald Trump as President.
In attacking what you perceive as a false dichotomy, you've constructed one of your own.

The choice is not between capitalist globalism and capitalist nationalism, because behind these two contending ideological structures lies a single economic phenomenon - the cycle of capital accumulation (in the form of protectionist development) and expansion (in the form of trade liberalization). Protection today presumes the resumption of trade tomorrow; you invest in "your nation" with the aim of competing with other nations later, on better terms.

The 'choice', or at least the dichotomy, is between this endless cyclical process and proletarian internationalism. And this choice is one made independently of any individual decision, but one arrived at for us by the ineluctable contradictions of the capitalist system itself.
Last edited by Proletarian on 2019-02-17 08:38pm, edited 1 time in total.
All theories (bourgeois, fascist, Stalinist, Labourite, left-wing, or far-leftist) which somehow glorify and praise the proletariat as it is and claim for it the positive role of defending values and regenerating society, are anti-revolutionary.
- Gilles Dauvé
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Proletarian wrote: 2019-02-17 08:35pm
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-02-17 08:25pm
K. A. Pital wrote: 2019-02-17 05:22am Resource wars are happening.

By inducing global climate change, the hyperindustrial societies have caused calamitous droughts and food shortages in the Middle East, plunging it into a bloodbath.

The fact that one of the largest refugee crises on Earth happened in the early XXI century and shows no signs of abating should be evidence to that.

So yes, down with globalism.

Not “must”, but practically is. And anything else is either a non-entity at all or is actually being subject to genocide by global capitalism as we speak, like the indigenous people in Brazil.
If the status quo is unsatisfactory, then work to change it, but do not fall into a false dichotomy. The danger of presuming that all globalization is capitalist oppression is that it leads to the conclusion that the only alternative is xenophobic nationalism and, well... that's how you get Donald Trump as President.
In attacking what you perceive as a false dichotomy, you've constructed one of your own.

The choice is not between capitalist globalism and capitalist nationalism, because behind these two contending ideological structures lies a single economic phenomenon - the cycle of capital accumulation (in the form of protectionist development) and expansion (in the form of trade liberalization). Protection today presumes the resumption of trade tomorrow; you invest in "your nation" with the aim of competing with other nations later, on better terms.

The 'choice', or at least the dichotomy, is between this endless cyclical process and proletarian internationalism.
Isn't "proletarian internationalism" simply one of the other, non-capitalist forms of globalization (note: I am using the term "globalization" here as short-hand for any form of global organization, communication, or homogenization)?

While I am not a Marxist and do not support a violent revolution of the proletariat, I think that nonetheless we are, to some extent at least, using different terms to talk about the same thing, and thereby end up talking past each other.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
Proletarian
Youngling
Posts: 66
Joined: 2018-12-29 08:09pm

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by Proletarian »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-02-17 08:38pm
Proletarian wrote: 2019-02-17 08:35pm
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-02-17 08:25pm

If the status quo is unsatisfactory, then work to change it, but do not fall into a false dichotomy. The danger of presuming that all globalization is capitalist oppression is that it leads to the conclusion that the only alternative is xenophobic nationalism and, well... that's how you get Donald Trump as President.
In attacking what you perceive as a false dichotomy, you've constructed one of your own.

The choice is not between capitalist globalism and capitalist nationalism, because behind these two contending ideological structures lies a single economic phenomenon - the cycle of capital accumulation (in the form of protectionist development) and expansion (in the form of trade liberalization). Protection today presumes the resumption of trade tomorrow; you invest in "your nation" with the aim of competing with other nations later, on better terms.

The 'choice', or at least the dichotomy, is between this endless cyclical process and proletarian internationalism.
Isn't "proletarian internationalism" simply one of the other, non-capitalist forms of globalization (note: I am using the term "globalization" here as short-hand for any form of global organization, communication, or homogenization)?
Proletarian internationalism presupposes the development of capitalism - which again cannot escape its own inexorably 'globalizing' logic - to the highest possible degree. Per the Manifesto:
The bourgeoisie has through its exploitation of the world market given a cosmopolitan character to production and consumption in every country. To the great chagrin of Reactionists, it has drawn from under the feet of industry the national ground on which it stood. All old-established national industries have been destroyed or are daily being destroyed. They are dislodged by new industries, whose introduction becomes a life and death question for all civilised nations, by industries that no longer work up indigenous raw material, but raw material drawn from the remotest zones; industries whose products are consumed, not only at home, but in every quarter of the globe. In place of the old wants, satisfied by the production of the country, we find new wants, requiring for their satisfaction the products of distant lands and climes. In place of the old local and national seclusion and self-sufficiency, we have intercourse in every direction, universal inter-dependence of nations. And as in material, so also in intellectual production. The intellectual creations of individual nations become common property. National one-sidedness and narrow-mindedness become more and more impossible, and from the numerous national and local literatures, there arises a world literature.
While I am not a Marxist and do not support a violent revolution of the proletariat, I think that nonetheless we are, to some extent at least, using different terms to talk about the same thing, and thereby end up talking past each other.
Caveat: I consider myself sympathetic to left-communism, which is quite a different beast from Marxism-Leninism and its ancillary tendencies. In particular I hold along with Marx that revolution isn't a matter of active, conscious 'support', and I reject efforts to "raise class consciousness" and the like, holding that consciousness is a product of material circumstance.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/w ... y/ch04.htm
When socialist writers ascribe this world-historic role to the proletariat, it is not at all, as Critical Criticism pretends to believe, because they regard the proletarians as gods. Rather the contrary. Since in the fully-formed proletariat the abstraction of all humanity, even of the semblance of humanity, is practically complete; since the conditions of life of the proletariat sum up all the conditions of life of society today in their most inhuman form; since man has lost himself in the proletariat, yet at the same time has not only gained theoretical consciousness of that loss, but through urgent, no longer removable, no longer disguisable, absolutely imperative need — the practical expression of necessity — is driven directly to revolt against this inhumanity, it follows that the proletariat can and must emancipate itself. But it cannot emancipate itself without abolishing the conditions of its own life. It cannot abolish the conditions of its own life without abolishing all the inhuman conditions of life of society today which are summed up in its own situation. Not in vain does it go through the stern but steeling school of labour. It is not a question of what this or that proletarian, or even the whole proletariat, at the moment regards as its aim. It is a question of what the proletariat is, and what, in accordance with this being, it will historically be compelled to do. Its aim and historical action is visibly and irrevocably foreshadowed in its own life situation as well as in the whole organization of bourgeois society today.
All theories (bourgeois, fascist, Stalinist, Labourite, left-wing, or far-leftist) which somehow glorify and praise the proletariat as it is and claim for it the positive role of defending values and regenerating society, are anti-revolutionary.
- Gilles Dauvé
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Fair enough. I should probably be more aware of all the differing subdivisions of communist theory.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
Proletarian
Youngling
Posts: 66
Joined: 2018-12-29 08:09pm

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by Proletarian »

That matters because, if revolution isn't a matter of consciously converting the global working-class to an intellectual proposition (e.g. Trotskyists standing on streetcorners hawking their papers) but instead is something which arises organically from within the development of capitalism itself, it follows logically that we can stand 'outside' bourgeois politics - that we can understand the factional vicissitudes of capitalist electoralism for what they are, representations of moments or movements within capitalism comprehended as a process.

I do not consider myself a 'leftist', for example, because I view the organized, factional Left as the left-wing of Capital, which has a historical role to play in capitalism's development but which will be rendered as obsolete as the rest of our contemporary political notions come revolution. Neither do I consider myself a 'progressive', nor Communism as a 'progressive movement', though it is often true that the progressive faction of Capital is usually (though not always!) preferable from the standpoint of everyday working-class life.

(This understanding of capitalism as a process, propelled forward by the interplay of its own contradictions, is what is meant by 'dialectics', though it should be noted that this concept was badly understood by XXth century Leninists.)
All theories (bourgeois, fascist, Stalinist, Labourite, left-wing, or far-leftist) which somehow glorify and praise the proletariat as it is and claim for it the positive role of defending values and regenerating society, are anti-revolutionary.
- Gilles Dauvé
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by K. A. Pital »

*laughs* Bold words about us. But what have you got to show for it, Comrade Postcard?

Literally nothing. You are much like those philosophers of whom Marx said, „Philosophers have hitherto only interpreted the world in various ways; the point is to change it.“

You are just standing aside and waiting for the water to carry the bodies of your enemies. But by doing that you exclude yourself from any contact with the global working class.

There are millions of dichotomies in capitalist development. By absolving yourself of class struggle, you want to just wait on the sidelines until capitalism destroys itself. But you have to play an active role. And if you see a fault-line, which is for example the contradiction between the international character of capital and by now, alienation on an international scale, and localized production- it is very important to put more and more pressure on the system at every turn. The fight of the Third World for better wages, collectively, intensifies the capitalist dead-end for the First World, and thus is very welcome. As are attempts to severe the trade links, because when capital hurts itself in such a manner due to fractional infighting, the contradictions are greatly amplified and preconditions for a revolutionary struggle may arise as a direct consequence.

We had our share of struggles, but who is going to listen to you of all people, when the time for revolution comes?

I mean, even Engels said the following:
Whether you try the Protectionist or the Free Trade will make no difference in the end, and hardly any in the length of the respite left to you until the day when that end will come. For long before that day will protection have become an unbearable shackle to any country aspiring, with a chance of success, to hold its own in the world market.
By now there is no „protectionism“ in the sense of the XIX century either. It is often merely a question of whether global capitalist corporations can freely genocide people in poorer parts of the world or not, because free flow of goods and capital has been by now universally accepted as base norm, and achieved possibly to the fullest extent it could have ever been.

Of course, if you buy into the „reactionary people will be done away with by progressive capitalist people“ (Engels‘ crude thought), I also have nothing but pity for you. Both Marx and Engels paid in dear disillusionment for their attitude towards poorer, not fully developed nations that barely had nascent capitalist industries. It is these nations who carried out most revolutions, whereas the developed nations in the XX century did jack shit other than war, plunder, and mass genocide. All revolutions in the rich world failed for a reason Marx himself perceived already. “Free trade” served only to enrich some nations at the expense of other nations and thereby turn a whole nation into capitalist opressors, including a bourgeois working class.

Marx made an observation that the free trade system of his time was destructive, dissolving the old groups and sharpening contradictions between proletariat and the capitalists. This was the sole reason to support it, basically Marx was the first accelerationist. ;) Nowadays the following process has been in place: free trade has been used to placate the masses of the proletariat, turning them into “worker aristocracy” with cheap goods, and isolate the struggles of other proletarians by fragmenting them - destroying their local, national, family, and any other common identity. Not that Marx himself didn’t get into self-contradictions, like when he supported the right of weaker nations or former colonies to protect their nascent industries. He basically opposed protectionism by the strong, whilst allowing it for the weak.

This modern “free” trade policy (a monopoly at core, as Marx also had noticed before in the case of England) has immiserated huge swathes of the world, destroyed proletarian classes in many nascent industrial nations (Middle East, for example,is lost), but it has not led to global solidarity or a global worker’s class unity.

The idea that this type of “free” trade can lead to a world revolution when it hasn’t done so in 150 years and counting is... well, not exactly corroborated by evidence. Even if we go solely by the old communist thinking, which is outdated in many points that seemed important in the 1850s.

The Manifesto and many other works are not just hopelessly outdated in their anthropocentric, Eurocentric and Orientalist views, they are by now practically harmful, serving as left-wing enablers of colonialist conquest and capitalist genocide.

Leninsts saved Marxism from that pit of smug Western superiority and actually helped to destroy the colonial order, helping many people achieve self-determination in the face of advanced capitalist empires as enemies.

But if we are still in the „just destroy all the inconvenient people on the capitalist development path“ mode, then we have truly learned nothing. Thanks Engels and his crude imperialistic, Western superiority shit he peddled with even greater zeal after Marx.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
Tribble
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3130
Joined: 2008-11-18 11:28am
Location: stardestroyer.net

Re: On the myth of globalization reducing poverty

Post by Tribble »

I'm just going to post the Webster definition of capitalism for those like me who may need a bit of a refresher:
capitalism - noun
an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market
IMO there are a couple of things to take away from that:

The first is that capitalism is ultimately about private gain, whether that is on an individual or corporate level. Nothing else matters. Any potential benefits to a society are completely irrelevant to capitalism unless an individual or corporation gains something from it.

The second is that capitalism is all about competition, and it's brutal in that aspect. Naturally, the winning strategy is maximum gain in the least amount of time for the least amount of effort, and those that stick to that will inevitably outcompete those that don't. Whether its slavery, breaking laws, strip mining, invading countries for their resources and/or exploiting their people etc, if there is more to gain from doing it than not doing it, then those who do will gain more and ultimately outcompete those who don't. Or in other words, maximum efficiency (no matter how brutal) wins out in a capitalist system, every time. There are no exceptions.

Also, since capitalism is a competition, there will inevitably be "winners" and "losers". There will always end up being a monopoly / oligarchy which then turns around and curb stomps any other potential competition into the ground. This remains until the status quo is shaken up by something new, then the competition gets going again until another monopoly / oligarchy forms to replace the previous one.


The only way that globalization reduces poverty in a capitalist system is if there is something that an individual or corporation can gain from it. What is there be to gained by reducing poverty, as opposed to exploiting poverty in order to reduce costs? Who benefits more; those who gain by reducing poverty, or those that exploit poverty to the hilt?
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - The official Troll motto, as stated by Adam Savage
Post Reply