You command the Battle of Crait (RAR).

[Gandalf]

I imagine the bigger issue in the "run for fuel" thing is the Resistance being able to find/pay for said fuel. Based on how nobody came for them at the end, there may not have been a lot of faith in their ability to pay later, so it would have to come down to cash on hand, or barter. Cash might not be too valuable as the New Republic is pretty well fucked.

[The Romulan Republic]

Easy, in both cases. For the Resistance: Upon the arrival of the First Order and the start of the chase, I dispatch the shuttle that Finn and Rose stole in the original timeline (before they have a chance to do so) to buy some gas. Upon its return with enough fuel to run my fleet for years, I proceed to leave the First Order in the dust.

I am profoundly skeptical that a single shuttle can carry enough fuel to refuel a capital ship, never mind the escorts.

You can be as skeptical as you want; it's canon per Solo that the fuel to run half a dozen Star Destroyers for a significant operational period fits into two Wookiee-portable suitcases.

I forgot that, but I'll concede to canon, however stupid it is in this case.

Also, just one more thing to reinforce my view that Solo is Worst Star Wars Movie Ever.

[The Romulan Republic]

I imagine the bigger issue in the "run for fuel" thing is the Resistance being able to find/pay for said fuel. Based on how nobody came for them at the end, there may not have been a lot of faith in their ability to pay later, so it would have to come down to cash on hand, or barter. Cash might not be too valuable as the New Republic is pretty well fucked.

Well, I mean, there's always piracy. It may not be very heroic, and it may not win the Resistance a lot of friends, but there's got to be some under-defended First Order sympathizing or criminal-run fuel station they can rob in the Outer Rim.

[The Romulan Republic]

And I'll add, since I mentioned their unsuitability for diplomacy and espionage earlier, that a team composed of Rose, Finn, and Poe would be damn near perfect for pirating fuel or equipment. You've got the ace pilot with actual rank in the Resistance to command the mission and fly the ship (Poe), someone who's experience is mainly in ground combat but has done some infiltration/commando work before (Finn), and a tech. person (Rose). Send BB-8 along for droid stuff. Perfect.

[Patroklos]

First Order:

Since everyone apparently knew this was possible from the get go (the Supremacy crew recognized the danger instantly) despite this devastatingly effective tactic never having been used intentionally in any canon source, legends or otherwise, just empty one of the two dozen odd Finalizers and hyper it into the unnecessarily compact Rebel formation from behind. The cross section of one easily covers the entire Rebel fleet as shown.

Or, given the disparity between the volume of the Supremacy and Raddus, just use any hyper capable small craft which will probably have a volume/mass ratio 1000x more favorable to the attacker than the observed instance.

Or, use any missile munition en mass ever seen in SW which always travel faster than starfighter combat speed (include the ones the FO's starfighters used in the same film), since we know starfighters can catch the Raddus thus their munitions certainly can. And if you are worried about range of said munitions, just have the star fighters race ahead of the Raddus but out of PD fire range and shoot them at the now closing Rebels ships (since apparently the present FO capital ships are incapable or doing that themselves via hyperspace).

Rebels:

Assuming we don't go with the obvious "ram the Supremecy up front and be done with it." Repeat the Finn/Rose escape, never noticed
or interfered with by either side, until all the rebel are gone and write off the capital ships. Its pretty clear they could indeed call for help given we see them talk to googlie eyes, but I highly doubt whatever help they could call would be a match for the concentrated FO fleet.

[PREDATOR490]

First Order -
Step 1) Figure out what celestial objects are on the Rebel flight path. Send a ship(s) to those celestial objects to scan for potential bases.
Step 2) Obliterate those bases, then have those ships fly to intercept the Rebels from those Celestial objects.
Step 3) Order some ships to jump straight at or slightly ahead of the Rebel fleet to catch up

Step Irony) If you want to end the rebellion extremely quickly and do not mind a loss - Evacuate a FO Destroyer and hyper ram straight into the Raadus.

Rebels -
Step 1) Send someone or call for someone to drop off some fuel.
Step 2) Setup a ship to do a ram and use the confusion to jump away the remaining ships.
Step 3) Alternatively, use hyper space capable ships to evacuate the fleet during the chase.

Step Fun) Load a bunch of missiles / torpedoes / fighter craft with hyperdrives and aim them straight at the Supremecy. Thanks to this chase, you have them stuck in an easily trackable course that can even be relayed to you via communications for target painting.

The MF was able to jump in and out before anyone reacted.
Rose and Fin was able to jump away without anyone noticing.

The rebel fleet was even able to evacuate from the escorts to the Raadus during the chase. So they have a reasonable amount of time to use hyperspace capable craft to jump in, dock, load up and jump out.

Granted, if the FO is remotely intelligent they will have ALL of their fucking destroyers using the hyperspace tracking thing to individually track each ship and hunt them. Thus, even if the fleet did scatter, the FO would be able to individually go after and obliterate those targets.

[Solauren]

I agree, all ships should have the Hyperspace tracking tech.

However....
It's possible the Supremacy is the first ship to have the Hyperspace tracking tech on it

or it requires a hell of a lot of volume and the other ships don't have to spare.

[Rogue 9]

The movie states that it's a gigantic power draw, which is why they don't all run the thing at once.

[The Romulan Republic]

First Order:

Since everyone apparently knew this was possible from the get go (the Supremacy crew recognized the danger instantly) despite this devastatingly effective tactic never having been used intentionally in any canon source, legends or otherwise, just empty one of the two dozen odd Finalizers and hyper it into the unnecessarily compact Rebel formation from behind. The cross section of one easily covers the entire Rebel fleet as shown.

Or, given the disparity between the volume of the Supremacy and Raddus, just use any hyper capable small craft which will probably have a volume/mass ratio 1000x more favorable to the attacker than the observed instance.

Or, use any missile munition en mass ever seen in SW which always travel faster than starfighter combat speed (include the ones the FO's starfighters used in the same film), since we know starfighters can catch the Raddus thus their munitions certainly can. And if you are worried about range of said munitions, just have the star fighters race ahead of the Raddus but out of PD fire range and shoot them at the now closing Rebels ships (since apparently the present FO capital ships are incapable or doing that themselves via hyperspace).

Rebels:

Assuming we don't go with the obvious "ram the Supremecy up front and be done with it." Repeat the Finn/Rose escape, never noticed
or interfered with by either side, until all the rebel are gone and write off the capital ships. Its pretty clear they could indeed call for help given we see them talk to googlie eyes, but I highly doubt whatever help they could call would be a match for the concentrated FO fleet.

Ramming the Resistance fleet might work (leaving aside the EU explanation about the Raadus having special shields, anyway). But its also needlessly complicated. This is really simple- concentrate overwhelming firepower on the Raadus, move on to the escorts, bring some interdictors if possible if you want to hedge your bets. Anything else is just needlessly complicating the plan.

Massed fighter missile attack ought to work like a charm, yeah.

For the Resistance... the viability of evac depends on how many hyper-capable small craft you have, and how many trips they can take. If that shuttle and the one-man fighters were all they had, you're going to need a lot of trips to ferry the whole crew of at least hundreds off. It also means forfeiting all three warships instead of just one.

You're right about it being unlikely they can call for help that can match the FO fleet in battle, a point that is often overlooked in these debates. Evac or kamikaze are basically the only options. Everything else is just details.

[Vendetta]

I imagine the bigger issue in the "run for fuel" thing is the Resistance being able to find/pay for said fuel. Based on how nobody came for them at the end, there may not have been a lot of faith in their ability to pay later, so it would have to come down to cash on hand, or barter. Cash might not be too valuable as the New Republic is pretty well fucked.

There's a big difference between actively showing up for a military encounter and being too distracted counting a large pile of credits to notice a few crates of fuel going missing.

[Patroklos]

I would think all of these are true:

1.) The rebels have fuel squirreled away all over the place (along with weapons, ect.) for just these sorts of occasions and...

2.) There have to be countless NR fleet fuel depots and outposts and whatnots all over the damn place that probably aren't so concerned about meticulous record keeping right about now and...

3.) They are rebels, they will come for your ass a few nights hence and murder you after burning your house down while your family watches if you refuse. Yeah yeah SW whitewashes how actual rebels and guerillas work, but even in the SW universe, we are definitely seeing the upper crust of the well-resourced do-gooders who have the luxury of clean white gloves. If the FO are really tearing around the galaxy going gestapo on everyone, there are plenty of steely-eyed local partisans actually living under the FO boot who are happy to tickle a reluctant gas station owner for the cause. Especially since plenty of sources are probably straight up collaborators right about now.

[FaxModem1]

I would think all of these are true:

1.) The rebels have fuel squirreled away all over the place (along with weapons, ect.) for just these sorts of occasions and...

2.) There have to be countless NR fleet fuel depots and outposts and whatnots all over the damn place that probably aren't so concerned about meticulous record keeping right about now and...

3.) They are rebels, they will come for your ass a few nights hence and murder you after burning your house down while your family watches if you refuse. Yeah yeah SW whitewashes how actual rebels and guerillas work, but even in the SW universe, we are definitely seeing the upper crust of the well-resourced do-gooders who have the luxury of clean white gloves. If the FO are really tearing around the galaxy going gestapo on everyone, there are plenty of steely-eyed local partisans actually living under the FO boot who are happy to tickle a reluctant gas station owner for the cause. Especially since plenty of sources are probably straight up collaborators right about now.

So, you're saying that I'm right about this:

Some old Tattooine nerf herder named Kitster Banai complaining to Finn that he helped the Jedi once against the Hutts and the Separatists, and then helped the Rebellion against the Empire, and now the Resistance is asking for help against the First Order, and he's still a poor man on Tattooine who loses his nerfs.

Now there's a potential scene idea for Episode IX, watching as Poe and Finn take nerfs away from Tattooine peasants, "for the revolution".

[Patroklos]

Is there any doubt with three world war equivalents in one lifetime?

I have always liked my SW with a bit of grit. The only good thing about R1 was Cassian (whatever his name is, who cares) betraying and murdering his informant in cold blood to save his own ass. Because that's the brutal shit that guerrillas do.

Just a hint though. Just like we don't need to see the Empire murdering school children every scene to know their bad (Luke's family was enough), I don't need to see the Rebels murdering the local intelligentsia or reprisal killing the local governor's family to know they are as committed to their cause as the Viet Cong Lucas took partial inspiration from. We know those types are out there, doing the Rebellions dirty work. Leia did that for us in ANH when she sealed Alderan's fate. There is no way she didn't know what happened was a possibility when she made that faint. I could never understand why some contemporaries think she needs some sort of rehabilitation, she was an ice cold piece trading player of the game of life.

Yes I am being a bit facetious, but only a bit. Also, the fact that a few minute clip of a single episode of Young Indiana Jones shows up the entire Canto Bight story arc regarding the pointlessness and grinding hardship of war on the poor makes me chuckle. What a shit film.

[Elheru Aran]

I am profoundly skeptical that a single shuttle can carry enough fuel to refuel a capital ship, never mind the escorts.

You can be as skeptical as you want; it's canon per Solo that the fuel to run half a dozen Star Destroyers for a significant operational period fits into two Wookiee-portable suitcases.

I forgot that, but I'll concede to canon, however stupid it is in this case.

Also, just one more thing to reinforce my view that Solo is Worst Star Wars Movie Ever.

I haven't rewatched Solo since it came out on Netflix, so I'm probably forgetting some details. But offhand: perhaps coaxium, given its apparent relative rarity, isn't the ONLY source of hyperspace fuel in the galaxy. Certainly it seems to me that there should be some other hyperdrive fuels, perhaps less efficient or more readily available or whatever. Coaxium is simply special.

Now if that's the ONLY hyperdrive fuel out there... welp.

[Patroklos]

Certainly, it is worth saddling the entire franchise with that throwaway detail in service of to a shitty plot element in the wort showing in SW history. .

[Crazedwraith]

Solo? Really?

Solo I saw as harmless fluff. It had no actively stupid stuff like TLJ. I mean sure the hyperfuel is silly but not TLJ stupid. Hard to put into words, for me Solo was at least fun which is a saving grace.

[FaxModem1]

I personally don't see the hate for Solo myself. It was a fun adventure heist movie, and that's all it was trying to be.

[The Romulan Republic]

Solo? Really?

Solo I saw as harmless fluff. It had no actively stupid stuff like TLJ. I mean sure the hyperfuel is silly but not TLJ stupid. Hard to put into words, for me Solo was at least fun which is a saving grace.

Off-topic, but...

I was mostly irked by the presentation of the whole droid slavery thing. You don't draw attention to the fact that your setting is a slave society, show your protagonists casually engaging in said slavery, and then treat it as a joke.

I was also irked that they appeared to me to be heading toward implying that Qi'ra was a sex slave, and then chickened out on it.

I seem to recall their being some other stuff, but the movie was honestly a little forgettable to me.

The fuel plot shit is just the icing on the shit heap.

That said, I have no criticism at all for the guy playing Han, who I thought did a commendable job filling some enormous shoes.

[Patroklos]

Solo? Really?

Solo I saw as harmless fluff. It had no actively stupid stuff like TLJ. I mean sure the hyperfuel is silly but not TLJ stupid. Hard to put into words, for me Solo was at least fun which is a saving grace.

Agreed for the most part, but unfortunetly in a shared universe “fluff” is as canon as anything else. The non-core movies should take pains not to significantly impact the workings of the universe as in the end they are just ancillary B-plots cashing in on the appeal of the core entries. If they are awesome, great. If the suck, well we can walk that off and forget about it.

Tail wagging the dog and all. The core movies should be defining the universe, the spinoffs just live in it. And let’s be honest, nobody gave s second’s thought about the impact of that detail on the franchise continuity past or future, just like the destruction of the supremacy in TLJ, the director had a set piece train heist idea and bent the SW universe to that end. If you have to continuously invent new mechanics to give you characters something to do or a way to solve problems, that speaks to a weakness in imagination and writing. They are not working in the universe, they are paving over it.

[FaxModem1]

Is there any doubt with three world war equivalents in one lifetime?

I have always liked my SW with a bit of grit. The only good thing about R1 was Cassian (whatever his name is, who cares) betraying and murdering his informant in cold blood to save his own ass. Because that's the brutal shit that guerrillas do.

Just a hint though. Just like we don't need to see the Empire murdering school children every scene to know their bad (Luke's family was enough), I don't need to see the Rebels murdering the local intelligentsia or reprisal killing the local governor's family to know they are as committed to their cause as the Viet Cong Lucas took partial inspiration from. We know those types are out there, doing the Rebellions dirty work. Leia did that for us in ANH when she sealed Alderan's fate. There is no way she didn't know what happened was a possibility when she made that faint. I could never understand why some contemporaries think she needs some sort of rehabilitation, she was an ice cold piece trading player of the game of life.

I think that's mostly because Star Wars is a realm of escapism and fantasy, mostly in how black and white everything is in the main story. When adding the moral gray of a pointless war like the Clone Wars, they still made one side comprised of beings that are almost entirely mustache twirlers, with little to nothing to say that was positive about them.

Introducing morally gray concepts like those left behind in such conflicts, like the child slaves on Canto Bight, is out of their realm of comfort, unless they're smart enough to dedicate the plot around it.

Yes I am being a bit facetious, but only a bit. Also, the fact that a few minute clip of a single episode of Young Indiana Jones shows up the entire Canto Bight story arc regarding the pointlessness and grinding hardship of war on the poor makes me chuckle. What a shit film.

There's a reason I keep on bringing clips of that TV show, they portray humanity and the human condition so much better than Star Wars does a lot of the time.

[The Romulan Republic]

Is there any doubt with three world war equivalents in one lifetime?

I have always liked my SW with a bit of grit. The only good thing about R1 was Cassian (whatever his name is, who cares) betraying and murdering his informant in cold blood to save his own ass. Because that's the brutal shit that guerrillas do.

Just a hint though. Just like we don't need to see the Empire murdering school children every scene to know their bad (Luke's family was enough), I don't need to see the Rebels murdering the local intelligentsia or reprisal killing the local governor's family to know they are as committed to their cause as the Viet Cong Lucas took partial inspiration from. We know those types are out there, doing the Rebellions dirty work. Leia did that for us in ANH when she sealed Alderan's fate. There is no way she didn't know what happened was a possibility when she made that faint. I could never understand why some contemporaries think she needs some sort of rehabilitation, she was an ice cold piece trading player of the game of life.

I think that's mostly because Star Wars is a realm of escapism and fantasy, mostly in how black and white everything is in the main story. When adding the moral gray of a pointless war like the Clone Wars, they still made one side comprised of beings that are almost entirely mustache twirlers, with little to nothing to say that was positive about them.

Introducing morally gray concepts like those left behind in such conflicts, like the child slaves on Canto Bight, is out of their realm of comfort, unless they're smart enough to dedicate the plot around it.

Yes I am being a bit facetious, but only a bit. Also, the fact that a few minute clip of a single episode of Young Indiana Jones shows up the entire Canto Bight story arc regarding the pointlessness and grinding hardship of war on the poor makes me chuckle. What a shit film.

There's a reason I keep on bringing clips of that TV show, they portray humanity and the human condition so much better than Star Wars does a lot of the time.

I mean, there's enough wallowing in grimdark out there telling people that everything is ugly and cynical, that there are no heroes, and the highest wisdom is not to believe in anything. We don't need more of that, and we certainly don't need it taking over Star Wars more than it already has. TLJ incidentally tried to deconstruct that whole viewpoint, and while one can argue over the effectiveness of it, I admire them for making the attempt.

At the same time, having metaphysical Good and Evil, and having clear heroes and villains, does not preclude also having "ends justify the means" Rebels. Its a big galaxy, and there's room in it for both the Luke Skywalkers and the Saw Gerreras. And frankly, Star Wars already has far more nuanced characters than most people give it credit for. Luke wasn't a flawless hero even before TLJ. Obi-wan and Yoda deceived Luke for what they thought was the greater good. The Old Republic Jedi used freaking child soldiers (and cloned cannon fodder). Lando's position in ESB, of a basically good (if somewhat slippery) man caught between duty to his friends and duty to his city and people shows why a good man might collaborate with the Empire. And the possibility of both a hero's fall and a villain's redemption is absolutely central to the saga. You don't have to dedicate a whole film's plot to showing the seedy side of the galaxy- you just have to show people being people.

As to Canto Bight, I will resolutely defend that sub-plot, but this is not the thread for it.

[Patroklos]

I think the relevant point is that the Rebels are not going to be stopped from getting hyper fuel or whatever they need by not having cash on hand. They will take it by force. At this point in their development, and with the current stakes, there will be a Cassian around to murder their way to what they need.

And I agree I like the generally pure as the wind driven snow characters having the spot light. I do, however, like to get a glimpse every now and again of a more realistic layer underneath the polish. It opens the universe to stories that utilize that, though I want those sorts of stories to remain the previous discussed side movies.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think the relevant point is that the Rebels are not going to be stopped from getting hyper fuel or whatever they need by not having cash on hand. They will take it by force. At this point in their development, and with the current stakes, there will be a Cassian around to murder their way to what they need.

Heck, Poe probably would, at this point.

And I agree I like the generally pure as the wind driven snow characters having the spot light. I do, however, like to get a glimpse every now and again of a more realistic layer underneath the polish. It opens the universe to stories that utilize that, though I want those sorts of stories to remain the previous discussed side movies.

Yup, that works.

[The Romulan Republic]

So, going back to my original plan and making some modifications in light of points raised in this thread:


For the First Order (defection plan):

-Follow Hux's idiot canon battle plan to the letter, with the only difference being that I order Kylo not to launch fighters.

-Wait until Snoke and Kylo are distracted.

-Take "personal responsibility" for DJ, Finn, and Rose's interrogation if captured. Keep them out of harm's way, and stop DJ from spilling the beans.

-Grab a shuttle and hyper out of there. Defect with as much info as possible to the Resistance.


For the First Order (actually trying to win the battle plan):

-Immediately have General Hux placed under arrest for criminal incompetence.

-Requisition interdictors if possible.

-Jump out of hyper with shields raised at point blank range, and order all weapons to concentrate fire on the Raadus until it is disabled or destroyed (I'd prefer prisoners, personally). Not just the Supremacy's- every gun in the fleet.

-Rise and repeat until the fleet is gone.

-Use pincer movement if possible to box in Resistance.

-Have Resistance fleet monitored closely for any sign of small craft launching, with orders to my Tie pilots to shoot them down.


For the Resistance:

-Immediately go to battle stations and launch fighters.

-Make sure I'm not on the bridge if Kylo gets past the fighters. Preferably somewhere deep inside the ship.

-Address crew moral issues, while placing trusted guards to prevent desertions/mutiny.

-Send someone on a fuel run.

-Evac to the escorts if feasible. If not, continue the Leia/Holdo plan as a backup.

-Try to recall Rey, or alternately use Leia if available, as a distraction to keep Snoke and Kylo from sensing what I'm up to.

-When evacuation is complete, rig the Raadus to ram the Supremacy.

[Solauren]

Slight related tangent: Why wasn't the resistance evacuating during the Starfighter attack?

I mean, it made sense with the Death Star and Yavin IV. You start pulling away from the planet, and the Death Star will open fire with it's standard weapons.
However, Starkiller base, no such risk. Just get the hell out of there while the Starfighters do their job.