You command the Battle of Crait (RAR).

[The Romulan Republic]

Pretty much, yeah.

It's tactically good but strategically pointless. It delayed their escape from the attacking fleet, their main goal and the FO so outnumbers that one ship, even a dreadnought isn't going to make a difference in the long run.

This is a frequent argument from the "Poe did no wrong, Holdo sucks" crowd- but it misses a very important point, which Crazedwraith brought up.

Bottom line is, what Poe did (ignoring for the moment that it was in direct violation of orders) was tactically brilliant, and strategically idiotic. In an insurgency or guerilla warfare, where you cannot match the enemy in open battle, you rely on staying out of sight, engaging in hit and run attacks on vulnerable, less-defended targets. You don't try to go head-to-head in the open with the enemy's heaviest units in conventional battle. Leia doubtless knows this, because she spent about ten years working in an insurgency/guerilla army before the Resistance was ever formed.

Poe was trying to fight the First Order as though the Resistance was a conventional military that could match the FO in open battle. But it isn't. Between roughly equivalent forces, trading a couple of squadrons for a dreadnought would be a net gain, and probably would have been considered justified. But when those are the only squadrons you have, and the enemy has a bunch more dreadnoughts, it is proportionally a net loss.

I'm reminded of a line in Return of the King (book version) where someone (Faramir I think) says that they can make Mordor pay with ten men for every one of there's to cross the river, and they'll still come out behind, because Mordor can more easily afford to lose an army than they can afford to lose a company. Same situation here.

If Poe is making the assumption that they can get reinforcements from the NR fleet remnants, then it is a decent strategic victory as well. The remnants of the NR need to avoid a fleet-killer at all cost.

What Poe doesn't know is the NR remnants are utterly incapable of forming any resistance.

If Poe had reason to believe that, sure, his actions become much more reasonable. But that's purely speculative, and everything we see suggests that the NR is very undergunned and folded very fast. The writing was probably already on the wall.

The bomber attack did accomplish one thing beyond just blowing up the dreadnoguht - from what little we saw, Captain Genardy (IIRC) was a lot more competent than Hux was. Getting rid of a competent senior officer (something the FO sorely lacks) mayindeed be worth it.

True, though that is notably not a reason Poe gives for his actions.

If Poe is making the assumption that they can get reinforcements from the NR fleet remnants, then it is a decent strategic victory as well. The remnants of the NR need to avoid a fleet-killer at all cost.

What Poe doesn't know is the NR remnants are utterly incapable of forming any resistance.

A quick point: how are you saying "the NR remnants are utterly incapable" etc.? Is this discussed in the novelization or other current post-TFA EU?

IIRC, there's a line somewhere that the FO is expected to finish overrunning the galaxy in a matter of weeks. Also, of course, the lack of any response to Leia's message at the end of the film.

The impression one gets of the NR is that people are just so sick of war that they're prepared to accept peace at any price, for the most part, rather than fight back against a strong opponent.

[Jub]

I imagine a lot of people are sick as I am of hearing the word subversion attached to this movie. But really the dreadnought scene is a microcosm of Poe's greater arc in the film. 'Here is Poe. He's a maverick renegade. He ingores authority and does what's right! Look at the badass. Oh wait, turns out authority was right and he's fucked it up."

The trouble is people are a lot more convinced by the set-up than the reversal.

Perhaps that's because the reversal was poorly written and didn't have the impact the director expected it to have because the entire movie is deeply flawed from tip to tail. Heaven forbid that the movie was actually bad and its defenders are wrong...

[Crazedwraith]

-snip-

Don't pull this one line at time bullshit. Just bottom line it for me. What are you trying to argue about the Bombers and their technical specifications?

No-one who is not Poe thinks that trading the bombers for the dreadnought was a good idea. That's basically it, either we have to assume they don't know their business and are idiots, and they are clearly aren't supposed to be. (Not in the sense that Hux is pointed out to be by a peer) Or that the bombers are effective in some way.

That hypothesis allows everyone to be right as far as we see their attitudes in the film. Poe is using them in an unconventional way in a high loss/high reward strategy. Leia and Hold would have preferred to keep them and use them conventionally.

To use the technical analogy. Technicals are bad if you want to rush a tank with them. If you want to drive around to ambush infantry in asymmetrical warfare, you'd get a lot more use out of them. (I imagine at least.)

Or we assume they're idiots and have ships that can only be used as a zerg rush when the enemy is too stupid to have deployed a screen. That makes sense.

I imagine a lot of people are sick as I am of hearing the word subversion attached to this movie. But really the dreadnought scene is a microcosm of Poe's greater arc in the film. 'Here is Poe. He's a maverick renegade. He ingores authority and does what's right! Look at the badass. Oh wait, turns out authority was right and he's fucked it up."

The trouble is people are a lot more convinced by the set-up than the reversal.

Perhaps that's because the reversal was poorly written and didn't have the impact the director expected it to have because the entire movie is deeply flawed from tip to tail. Heaven forbid that the movie was actually bad and its defenders are wrong...

Where did I ever argue the movie was well-written and perfect?

[FaxModem1]

The issue we see with Poe's bombing run is that the Resistance seems to be all of the people on-board the three ships. Poe's waste of the bomber squadron and A-wing squadron depleted their assets, as did Holdo with her needless wasting of the Ninka and the medical ship.

And by the end of the film, the rest of the galaxy doesn't care about them and the only people who do care about fighting the First Order are on board the Falcon. The only way Poe's destruction of the dreadnought makes sense is if the Resistance can scrounge up more fighters and pilots after they get away from the First Order fleet, and that they'll continue to be supported by the rest of the galaxy. Which they're not, because those on Canto Bight profit and everyone else just shrugs.

And with the plan for the fleet to go to Crait and the First Order's assets, they were dead already anyway due to the superior technology of the First Order and their ability to both track ships through hyperspace and detect cloaked vessels. It's only by Holdo destroying the enemy fleet in a lucky maneuver that anyone survived, because the Resistance leadership was unwilling or unable to split up or grab reinforcements or additional fighters/pilots to fight the First Order.

[The Romulan Republic]

Where did I ever argue the movie was well-written and perfect?

The problem is that when Star Wars fans hate a movie, they really hate it. Its not enough to say it was flawed, or that you personally dislike it but respect other points of view, or to criticize specific aspects of it while defending others, or to try to figure out alternative interpretations that would work better. There is no room for nuanced analysis and discussion. No, it has to be completely awful in every possible way, and anyone who disagrees is a liar/idiot/troll/paid Disney shill/not a real fan.

I'm not trying to single any one person out here, by the way. I'm talking about a general attitude that permeates the fandom. This sort of toxicity is endemic to the franchise, and has been ever since Jar-Jar made his cinematic debut, at least.

All of which is wildly off-topic here, but precisely because of the above, its all-but impossible to discuss the ST at all without it turning into an argument over how much the movies and everything in them sucked. Its not possible to discuss what works and what doesn't in TLJ, because in a lot of internet nerd culture, even considering the possibility that anything about it works is anathema.

Edit: I suspect that the only thing that will really get it to die down is when episodes X-XII come out, and the fandom has something new to focus their hate on. Much like how you see the Prequels getting way less crap now that the ST has come out.

[ray245]

I imagine a lot of people are sick as I am of hearing the word subversion attached to this movie. But really the dreadnought scene is a microcosm of Poe's greater arc in the film. 'Here is Poe. He's a maverick renegade. He ingores authority and does what's right! Look at the badass. Oh wait, turns out authority was right and he's fucked it up."

The trouble is people are a lot more convinced by the set-up than the reversal.

Rian Johnson wanted this movie about be about subverting people's traditional expectations. If you want to do that, then you really need to know how to pull it off.

If Poe had reason to believe that, sure, his actions become much more reasonable. But that's purely speculative, and everything we see suggests that the NR is very undergunned and folded very fast. The writing was probably already on the wall.

It makes sense from his POV. That's what the movie should have focused on. Command decisions often have to be made with no benefit of hindsight, and everyone approaches or tackles the problems differently because of that. That's something the movie could have done better in presenting, by highlighting how commands can be torn apart because people have differing opinions.

Someone like Poe could easily see his actions as inspiring more remnants of the NR fleet to hold their ground. "Hey look, if one fighter squadron can take out a fleet killer, the surviving squadrons can do the same against the First Order!"

A quick point: how are you saying "the NR remnants are utterly incapable" etc.? Is this discussed in the novelization or other current post-TFA EU?

The final arc of the movie where everyone ignored Leia's cry for help. I'm assuming the people Leia are trying to call are also the remnants of the NR military.

Where did I ever argue the movie was well-written and perfect?

The problem is that when Star Wars fans hate a movie, they really hate it. Its not enough to say it was flawed, or that you personally dislike it but respect other points of view, or to criticize specific aspects of it while defending others, or to try to figure out alternative interpretations that would work better. There is no room for nuanced analysis and discussion. No, it has to be completely awful in every possible way, and anyone who disagrees is a liar/idiot/troll/paid Disney shill/not a real fan.

I'm not trying to single any one person out here, by the way. I'm talking about a general attitude that permeates the fandom. This sort of toxicity is endemic to the franchise, and has been ever since Jar-Jar made his cinematic debut, at least.

All of which is wildly off-topic here, but precisely because of the above, its all-but impossible to discuss the ST at all without it turning into an argument over how much the movies and everything in them sucked. Its not possible to discuss what works and what doesn't in TLJ, because in a lot of internet nerd culture, even considering the possibility that anything about it works is anathema.

Edit: I suspect that the only thing that will really get it to die down is when episodes X-XII come out, and the fandom has something new to focus their hate on. Much like how you see the Prequels getting way less crap now that the ST has come out.

The toxicity is not only one sided. Fans that liked a movie also jump upon people who dare to say a movie is less than perfect as well. That's what happens when people are passionate about something. They take any criticism or disagreements very, very personally.

There's a lot of debating in bad faith in regards to TLJ. For example, people jumped onboard in defending Holdo from misogynists, but at the same time develop a siege mentality that sees almost every criticism of Holdo as sexists and etc. It doesn't really help when being online makes it easy for people to develop siege mentality in general.

[Crazedwraith]

Where did I ever argue the movie was well-written and perfect?

The problem is that when Star Wars fans hate a movie, they really hate it. Its not enough to say it was flawed, or that you personally dislike it but respect other points of view, or to criticize specific aspects of it while defending others, or to try to figure out alternative interpretations that would work better. There is no room for nuanced analysis and discussion. No, it has to be completely awful in every possible way, and anyone who disagrees is a liar/idiot/troll/paid Disney shill/not a real fan.

You can see that in old debates as well. It wasn't enough that Sw could beat ST in a fight it had to be superior in every way all the time. Transporters were murder-cloners, the Federation was a communist dystopia, counselors were secret police etc.

It's nothing new. I've often though the problem is things aren't allowed to be good. They are either brilliant and amazing or awful. Just being good tends to get you lumped in the later.

And on a different tangent whenever I debated I end up having to address point during a debate I never meant to. All I was trying to say here was that I found the logic that 'wow a dreadnaught killed for a few fighters, that must be great' was flawed and now I'm talking about bomber design ffs.

Anyway, I found your post saying the same thing very well articulated so thanks for that. (I mean I would since it was my line of though but still.)

[Jub]

Nice way to ignore my questions about Resistance leadership, you know the topic of this thread, by ignoring questiosna about why the bombers were even armed in the first place. I know that you, by your own admission, know fuck all about military protocol but way to try to take the easy way out of a debate where you know you havbe no good rebuttal.

No-one who is not Poe thinks that trading the bombers for the dreadnought was a good idea. That's basically it, either we have to assume they don't know their business and are idiots, and they are clearly aren't supposed to be. (Not in the sense that Hux is pointed out to be by a peer) Or that the bombers are effective in some way.

What is that use then? We know fighters can down capital ships from both the Clone Wars cartoons as well as the movies before TLJ. It seems like the Resistance is just full of risk-averse leaders who are going to let their forces get ground down slowly without ever mounting an attack against the First Order. From their point of view carefully maintaining their small force makes sense, but at no point are we shown a plan.

It seems logical that the Resistance leadership is simply a poor group ill-suited to the situation they are overseeing. Even Leia, who should know better, is probably too war-weary and conservative in her old age to make the bold choices she made in her youth.

Out of universe, somebody wanted a B-17 analog and didn't stop long enough to think if such a craft made any sense.

That hypothesis allows everyone to be right as far as we see their attitudes in the film. Poe is using them in an unconventional way in a high loss/high reward strategy. Leia and Hold would have preferred to keep them and use them conventionally.

Why does everybody have to be right?

To use the technical analogy. Technicals are bad if you want to rush a tank with them. If you want to drive around to ambush infantry in asymmetrical warfare, you'd get a lot more use out of them. (I imagine at least.)

You have no clue what you're talking about and you're too lazy to look it up. Why should I even debate you if you won't even look up the situations where real life forces commit their limited resources and they trades they're willing to make in the face of a superior foe?

Where did I ever argue the movie was well-written and perfect?

If not, why bring it up at all?

And on a different tangent whenever I debated I end up having to address point during a debate I never meant to. All I was trying to say here was that I found the logic that 'wow a dreadnaught killed for a few fighters, that must be great' was flawed and now I'm talking about bomber design ffs.

Anyway, I found your post saying the same thing very well articulated so thanks for that. (I mean I would since it was my line of though but still.)

That's on you as a poor debator... I'm making a case based on what we see n screen and what we know from previous movies. If you don't like it make an actual counter point based on provable facts and not what you think makes subjective sense.

-----

The issue we see with Poe's bombing run is that the Resistance seems to be all of the people on-board the three ships. Poe's waste of the bomber squadron and A-wing squadron depleted their assets, as did Holdo with her needless wasting of the Ninka and the medical ship.

If this is the case saving those forces is equally worthless alive. The Resistance is simply too small to ever effectively threaten the First Order if what we see on screen is all they have.

And by the end of the film, the rest of the galaxy doesn't care about them and the only people who do care about fighting the First Order are on board the Falcon. The only way Poe's destruction of the dreadnought makes sense is if the Resistance can scrounge up more fighters and pilots after they get away from the First Order fleet, and that they'll continue to be supported by the rest of the galaxy. Which they're not, because those on Canto Bight profit and everyone else just shrugs.

That's assuming they can't use the destruction of the Supremacy and Fulminatrix to show that the First Order can bleed and thus gain more support because of these otherwise terrible defeats.

And with the plan for the fleet to go to Crait and the First Order's assets, they were dead already anyway due to the superior technology of the First Order and their ability to both track ships through hyperspace and detect cloaked vessels. It's only by Holdo destroying the enemy fleet in a lucky maneuver that anyone survived, because the Resistance leadership was unwilling or unable to split up or grab reinforcements or additional fighters/pilots to fight the First Order.

Given the events we knwo to have happened, it looks more and more like Poe made the right call. Those bombers were dead in the chase anyway no matter what Holdo does. This way those bombers at least killed something on the way out.

-----

The problem is that when Star Wars fans hate a movie, they really hate it. Its not enough to say it was flawed, or that you personally dislike it but respect other points of view, or to criticize specific aspects of it while defending others, or to try to figure out alternative interpretations that would work better. There is no room for nuanced analysis and discussion. No, it has to be completely awful in every possible way, and anyone who disagrees is a liar/idiot/troll/paid Disney shill/not a real fan.

I'm not trying to single any one person out here, by the way. I'm talking about a general attitude that permeates the fandom. This sort of toxicity is endemic to the franchise, and has been ever since Jar-Jar made his cinematic debut, at least.

All of which is wildly off-topic here, but precisely because of the above, its all-but impossible to discuss the ST at all without it turning into an argument over how much the movies and everything in them sucked. Its not possible to discuss what works and what doesn't in TLJ, because in a lot of internet nerd culture, even considering the possibility that anything about it works is anathema.

Edit: I suspect that the only thing that will really get it to die down is when episodes X-XII come out, and the fandom has something new to focus their hate on. Much like how you see the Prequels getting way less crap now that the ST has come out.

I don't hate TLJ, it's not a terrible movie, but it's a bad Star Wars movie because of how many rules it has to rewrite to make its chase scene work. It retroactively makes the Rebellion look stupid for not using hyperspace ramming in the face of certain losses.

Hell, it calls into question the battle of Endor with how short range turbolasers apparently are. The on-screen distances certainly look larger at Endor. So was RotJ just better able to convey distance than TlJ or did Rion just rewrite the rules to make his idea work? Doesn't either explanation make TLJ a weaker movie that the weakest OT movie?

[ray245]

The issue we see with Poe's bombing run is that the Resistance seems to be all of the people on-board the three ships. Poe's waste of the bomber squadron and A-wing squadron depleted their assets, as did Holdo with her needless wasting of the Ninka and the medical ship.

And by the end of the film, the rest of the galaxy doesn't care about them and the only people who do care about fighting the First Order are on board the Falcon. The only way Poe's destruction of the dreadnought makes sense is if the Resistance can scrounge up more fighters and pilots after they get away from the First Order fleet, and that they'll continue to be supported by the rest of the galaxy. Which they're not, because those on Canto Bight profit and everyone else just shrugs.

And with the plan for the fleet to go to Crait and the First Order's assets, they were dead already anyway due to the superior technology of the First Order and their ability to both track ships through hyperspace and detect cloaked vessels. It's only by Holdo destroying the enemy fleet in a lucky maneuver that anyone survived, because the Resistance leadership was unwilling or unable to split up or grab reinforcements or additional fighters/pilots to fight the First Order.

I really don't see the point of keeping the entire resistance leadership together. Moreover, the movie itself kinda undermined the whole point of keeping as many people alive as possible given a tiny amount of survivors is apparently more than enough to rebuild the resistance.

[The Romulan Republic]

Where did I ever argue the movie was well-written and perfect?

The problem is that when Star Wars fans hate a movie, they really hate it. Its not enough to say it was flawed, or that you personally dislike it but respect other points of view, or to criticize specific aspects of it while defending others, or to try to figure out alternative interpretations that would work better. There is no room for nuanced analysis and discussion. No, it has to be completely awful in every possible way, and anyone who disagrees is a liar/idiot/troll/paid Disney shill/not a real fan.

You can see that in old debates as well. It wasn't enough that Sw could beat ST in a fight it had to be superior in every way all the time. Transporters were murder-cloners, the Federation was a communist dystopia, counselors were secret police etc.

It's nothing new. I've often though the problem is things aren't allowed to be good. They are either brilliant and amazing or awful. Just being good tends to get you lumped in the later.

Yeah.

I call it the Obama effect, as we saw a bit of that on the Left with him- incredibly high expectations based on his "hope and change rhetoric", people (admittedly this was more Right-wingers, probably) talking about the end of racism... and then a lot of disillusionment when he turned out to be merely an okay President (relative to the standards of prior presidents) rather than the second coming of Lincoln.

And on a different tangent whenever I debated I end up having to address point during a debate I never meant to. All I was trying to say here was that I found the logic that 'wow a dreadnaught killed for a few fighters, that must be great' was flawed and now I'm talking about bomber design ffs.

These things do have a way of meandering. Doesn't usually bother me (my mind tends to run off on tangents too), unless it appears to be being done in a deliberate attempt to derail the conversation.

Anyway, I found your post saying the same thing very well articulated so thanks for that. (I mean I would since it was my line of though but still.)

[The Romulan Republic]

The issue we see with Poe's bombing run is that the Resistance seems to be all of the people on-board the three ships. Poe's waste of the bomber squadron and A-wing squadron depleted their assets, as did Holdo with her needless wasting of the Ninka and the medical ship.

And by the end of the film, the rest of the galaxy doesn't care about them and the only people who do care about fighting the First Order are on board the Falcon. The only way Poe's destruction of the dreadnought makes sense is if the Resistance can scrounge up more fighters and pilots after they get away from the First Order fleet, and that they'll continue to be supported by the rest of the galaxy. Which they're not, because those on Canto Bight profit and everyone else just shrugs.

And with the plan for the fleet to go to Crait and the First Order's assets, they were dead already anyway due to the superior technology of the First Order and their ability to both track ships through hyperspace and detect cloaked vessels. It's only by Holdo destroying the enemy fleet in a lucky maneuver that anyone survived, because the Resistance leadership was unwilling or unable to split up or grab reinforcements or additional fighters/pilots to fight the First Order.

I really don't see the point of keeping the entire resistance leadership together. Moreover, the movie itself kinda undermined the whole point of keeping as many people alive as possible given a tiny amount of survivors is apparently more than enough to rebuild the resistance.

Leaving aside the question of whether they should have split up at Crait (which basically comes down to weighing the chance of getting some of the ships out against the risk of stripping the Raadus of anti-fighter cover from its escorts), I do think it makes sense for the leadership to split up in Episode IX. A guerilla force does not want to put all their eggs in one basket- it invites a decapitation strike. I'd like to see the cast split up for most of the film (maybe reuniting for the final battle), with Poe and Leia off having meetings with possible supporters to try to drum up allies, Finn and Rose doing commando raids to steal supplies, and Rey running around looking for other Force sensitives or Force lore and skirmishing with the Knights of Ren.

I do think we'll be seeing them getting some help (albeit belated) from others in the galaxy, though, given word that Lando will be in the film. Hopefully Lando can bring some ships, people, or resources with him to the fight, although just Lando gives them frankly a better tactician and strategist than anyone they currently have).

Also, FaxModem1, there is no proof that the FO would have detected the cloaked transports without Poe's blunder and DJ's treachery. This is at best purely speculative. Please stop mixing up your headcanon with canon facts.

[Crazedwraith]

-snip

I'm still not addressing every line separately. It's a shitty debate tactic to try and swamp people with hundreds of questions of varying relevance and then claim victory when they won't answer them all.

The subject of this thread is not the Resistance leadership, or least not the specific tangent about the bombers we've been addressing.

To roll this back right to where I started my point was you can't just look at tonnage and numbers and declare this was a great victory. This was literally my entire point and the only thing I wanted to argue. Nothing you've said has really contradicted this to me. Instead you've just quibbled about how valuable the bombers really are.

My evidence is the film and the statement of the characters on the relative worth of bombers to them. If you wish to provide evidence for you claim about what real resistance groups would really do go right ahead and provide it. That's your claim, mate.

My post of the subversion thing was just because I found it interesting. It was not a claim about the quality of the writing or whether people should have got it or anything.

[FaxModem1]

Also, FaxModem1, there is no proof that the FO would have detected the cloaked transports without Poe's blunder and DJ's treachery. This is at best purely speculative. Please stop mixing up your headcanon with canon facts.

Did DJ give the First Order any sort of hardware? No. Did he have access to any sort of Resistance frequencies or communications technology? No. All DJ did, that we know, was alert the First Order that they were using cloaks.

Can you prove that the First Order wouldn't have scanned for cloaked ships without DJ's suggestions?

[The Romulan Republic]

I made no claim about what the FO would or wouldn't have done. I simply said that your claim was speculation, not proven fact. It is not on me to prove a negative.

[FaxModem1]

The issue we see with Poe's bombing run is that the Resistance seems to be all of the people on-board the three ships. Poe's waste of the bomber squadron and A-wing squadron depleted their assets, as did Holdo with her needless wasting of the Ninka and the medical ship.

If this is the case saving those forces is equally worthless alive. The Resistance is simply too small to ever effectively threaten the First Order if what we see on screen is all they have.

And by the end of the film, the rest of the galaxy doesn't care about them and the only people who do care about fighting the First Order are on board the Falcon. The only way Poe's destruction of the dreadnought makes sense is if the Resistance can scrounge up more fighters and pilots after they get away from the First Order fleet, and that they'll continue to be supported by the rest of the galaxy. Which they're not, because those on Canto Bight profit and everyone else just shrugs.

That's assuming they can't use the destruction of the Supremacy and Fulminatrix to show that the First Order can bleed and thus gain more support because of these otherwise terrible defeats.

And with the plan for the fleet to go to Crait and the First Order's assets, they were dead already anyway due to the superior technology of the First Order and their ability to both track ships through hyperspace and detect cloaked vessels. It's only by Holdo destroying the enemy fleet in a lucky maneuver that anyone survived, because the Resistance leadership was unwilling or unable to split up or grab reinforcements or additional fighters/pilots to fight the First Order.

Given the events we knwo to have happened, it looks more and more like Poe made the right call. Those bombers were dead in the chase anyway no matter what Holdo does. This way those bombers at least killed something on the way out.

It's why I find the film frustrating. The Canto Bight subplot introduces grander scale, but makes the conflict seem smaller by the seeming apathy and indifference the rest of the galaxy has towards the conflict, and its seeming lack of effect on the rest of the galaxy.

Here's hoping they fix that in 9.

[FaxModem1]

I made no claim about what the FO would or wouldn't have done. I simply said that your claim was speculation, not proven fact. It is not on me to prove a negative.

Do you at least agree that DJ's influence on events seemed rather minimal due to his lack of access to any hardware or frequencies?

[Jub]

I'm still not addressing every line separately. It's a shitty debate tactic to try and swamp people with hundreds of questions of varying relevance and then claim victory when they won't answer them all.

So you refuse to answer valid points raised in objection to your own assertations while also ignoring that this forum has a history of point-by-point debates. I'm supposed to respect this why exactly?

The subject of this thread is not the Resistance leadership

Yes, it is. Why else would we have a thread about a bunch of forum nerds commanding the battle if the leadership wasn't in question? Why are the bombers being brought up at all if not to make a point about the Resistance's leadership situation?

To roll this back right to where I started my point was you can't just look at tonnage and numbers and declare this was a great victory. Nothing you've said has really contradicted this to me. Instead you've just quibbled about how valuble the bombers really are.

if the bombers are as worthless as I've claimed they are it validates my point that Poe made the correct call.

My evidence is the film and the statement of the characters on the relative worth of bombers to them. If you wish to provide evidence for you claim about what real resistance groups would really do go right ahead and provide it. That's your claim, mate.

This board has never viewed dialogue as a reliable source for information so you need to back up your claim by proving a use case for the bombers and vindicating your stance that the Resistance leadership made the correct call. You're current argument hinges on them being correct and your argument for them being correct is that the people you're saying are correct said so. Circular logic at it's finest.

So please, show the use case for these bombers and prove that it is more valuable than what Poe used them for. I'll wait.

-----

I made no claim about what the FO would or wouldn't have done. I simply said that your claim was speculation, not proven fact. It is not on me to prove a negative.

Doesn't the fact that the FO can see through cloaking tech make that speculation entirely valid when discussing a plan relying on using cloaked vessels? This being the case the Resistance leadership should have at least asked themselves what happens in the FO can see through their cloaking. The answer may well have been, launch them because we have no other options and that would be valid but in the context of debating the decisions made at Crait the question does need to be asked.

-----

It's why I find the film frustrating. The Canto Bight subplot introduces grander scale, but makes the conflict seem smaller by the seeming apathy and indifference the rest of the galaxy has towards the conflict, and its seeming lack of effect on the rest of the galaxy.

Here's hoping they fix that in 9.

Given the lack of long term planning or a consistant dirrectorial team I have little hope of that. Disney doesn't seem to care about scope or scale because set pieces and spectacle still sells.

[ray245]

Leaving aside the question of whether they should have split up at Crait (which basically comes down to weighing the chance of getting some of the ships out against the risk of stripping the Raadus of anti-fighter cover from its escorts), I do think it makes sense for the leadership to split up in Episode IX. A guerilla force does not want to put all their eggs in one basket- it invites a decapitation strike. I'd like to see the cast split up for most of the film (maybe reuniting for the final battle), with Poe and Leia off having meetings with possible supporters to try to drum up allies, Finn and Rose doing commando raids to steal supplies, and Rey running around looking for other Force sensitives or Force lore and skirmishing with the Knights of Ren.

I do think we'll be seeing them getting some help (albeit belated) from others in the galaxy, though, given word that Lando will be in the film. Hopefully Lando can bring some ships, people, or resources with him to the fight, although just Lando gives them frankly a better tactician and strategist than anyone they currently have).

I find that to be a rather underwhelming and problematic way to resolve the conflict, from a narrative POV. If a guerrilla warfare is all the resistance has to offer, the war is already lost. The empire is an oppressive regime that does not care how much losses they will suffer. In a guerrilla war of attrition and will, it will be an never-ending conflict at best.

If the Resistance can muster a big fleet again within a few years, it kinda makes it pointless for so many members of the resistance to be killed off. Afterall, if a small core of leaders is what it takes for the resistance to rise again, then there's really no point keeping the whole fleet together. Ram the supremacy then scatter the rest of the fleet.

Given the lack of long term planning or a consistant dirrectorial team I have little hope of that. Disney doesn't seem to care about scope or scale because set pieces and spectacle still sells.

I really hope this will bite them in the ass if few fans find the sequel era to be something worth enjoying on its own and the newer sequel era films keep having diminishing returns.

[Crazedwraith]

I'm still not addressing every line separately. It's a shitty debate tactic to try and swamp people with hundreds of questions of varying relevance and then claim victory when they won't answer them all.

So you refuse to answer valid points raised in objection to your own assertations while also ignoring that this forum has a history of point-by-point debates. I'm supposed to respect this why exactly?

The subject of this thread is not the Resistance leadership

Yes, it is. Why else would we have a thread about a bunch of forum nerds commanding the battle if the leadership wasn't in question? Why are the bombers being brought up at all if not to make a point about the Resistance's leadership situation?

To roll this back right to where I started my point was you can't just look at tonnage and numbers and declare this was a great victory. Nothing you've said has really contradicted this to me. Instead you've just quibbled about how valuble the bombers really are.

if the bombers are as worthless as I've claimed they are it validates my point that Poe made the correct call.

My evidence is the film and the statement of the characters on the relative worth of bombers to them. If you wish to provide evidence for you claim about what real resistance groups would really do go right ahead and provide it. That's your claim, mate.

This board has never viewed dialogue as a reliable source for information so you need to back up your claim by proving a use case for the bombers and vindicating your stance that the Resistance leadership made the correct call. You're current argument hinges on them being correct and your argument for them being correct is that the people you're saying are correct said so. Circular logic at it's finest.

So please, show the use case for these bombers and prove that it is more valuable than what Poe used them for. I'll wait.

1)The questions are not valid points. and I'm not refusing to answer them. I'm refusing to let you distract and diffuse the discussion with weird attacks and hundreds of subpoints that distract from the main point.
2)What Kraytdragon originally said was how brilliant Poe was for killing a Dreadnought with bombers. I pointed out this was tactically good and strategically bad. And to elaborate now you can't just assign scores based on tonnage or personnel and decide if it was a good idea based on that. This has very little to do with leadership and given your next questions something you actually agree with since you're quibbling about what use the bombers would be else where.
3) Yes, if you are correct and we only have your speculation about the bombers to prove that. I've provided an alternate explanation that fits with more evidence from the film and doesn't require us to assume that the head of the resistance doesn't know how to use her ships or run a resistance. We could assume that but it would be better if we didn't.
4)Yes, dialogue is considered less reliable that visuals, but it's no worthless. We don't need to discount Leia's statements. All we have is your speculation that the bombers couldn't do anything else and your refusal to accept what we're told. I have already explained at least once how the bombers could be used better, simply by not sending them on a suicide mission attack a dreadnought unsupported. Simply the benefits of getting more than one bomber into payload range or reusing bombers. Providing escorts or attacking vulnerable targets. I of course cannot provide specific bomber doctrines beyond generalities and again, I'm not speculating on the chase as that doesn't pertain to their use in the battle we're discussing.

Reply if you like but personally I see little hope of us resolving this.

[Jub]

Before I say anything, for the love of Christ, use the return key twice when making a new point. What you've posted is a mess that is difficult to read.

1)The questions are not valid points. and I'm not refusing to answer them. I'm refusing to let you distract and diffuse the discussion with weird attacks and hundreds of subpoints that distract from the main point.

So you've declared yourself the sole arbiter of which questions are valid... How the fuck does that work?

2)What Kraytdragon originally said was how brilliant Poe was for killing a Dreadnought with bombers. I pointed out this was tactically good and strategically bad. And to elaborate now you can't just assign scores based on tonnage or personnel and decide if it was a good idea based on that. This has very little to do with leadership and given your next questions something you actually agree with since you're quibbling about what use the bombers would be else where.

It's a good attack. Unless you can prove that those bombers would do an equal amount of damage over their service life if deployed differently I'll stand by that fact. You know why I stand by that because the bombers are a poor replacement for fighters which have proven capable of making the same kinds of attacks we see the space B-17s make.

3) Yes, if you are correct and we only have your speculation about the bombers to prove that. I've provided an alternate explanation that fits with more evidence from the film and doesn't require us to assume that the head of the resistance doesn't know how to use her ships or run a resistance. We could assume that but it would be better if we didn't.

Given how poorly we see the Resistance leadership deal with both the chase and other officers, I'd say it's very fair to question their competence. Given that we've seen fighters capable of dropping similar, if not the same, bombs that these bombers used it's fair to question the use of these bombers. Can you tell me what you assume these bombers are good at, specifically what they do that a Y-Wing armed with a bomb load can't?

4)Yes, dialogue is considered less reliable that visuals, but it's no worthless. We don't need to discount Leia's statements. All we have is your speculation that the bombers couldn't do anything else and your refusal to accept what we're told. I have already explained at least once how the bombers could be used better, simply by not sending them on a suicide mission attack a dreadnought unsupported. Simply the benefits of getting more than one bomber into payload range or reusing bombers. Providing escorts or attacking vulnerable targets. I of course cannot provide specific bomber doctrines beyond generalities and again, I'm not speculating on the chase as that doesn't pertain to their use in the battle we're discussing.

The bombers were supported by a unit of A-Wings and made the exact type of attack against a larger ship that the Rebellion was once famous for. The Bombers were less suitable for this attack than a squadron of Y-Wings or better yet B-Wings would have been but Poe executed a classic rebellion attack strategy with what he had on hand. They were, in fact, successful in their mission and destroyed their target in spite of the heavy losses they took.

The only argument against their use is not wasting limited resources an argument which is easily disproven with simple logic. If the fleet we see is all the Resistance has at their disposal, the attack is justified because a fleet that small is unlikely to get a better chance to take down a ship that large ever again. If they do have more resources that we don't see, then things aren't so dire that the trade of a small squadron of bombers and a few fighter escorts for a capital ship was a poor trade.

I think we can agree, that based on currently available evidence. the first assumption about the Resistance's strength is more likely than that latter assumption. Do you have evidence to support greater Resistance resources than what we see in TLJ? If you don't can you see why one might criticize the Resistance leadership for being overly conservative with their forces and thus think Poe made the correct choice? A choice, which might I add, looks even better in hindsight.

[Crazedwraith]

Fine, Jub. I don't care enough to continue this, you win.

[Jub]

Fine, Jub. I don't care enough to continue this, you win.

I wasn't trying to drive you off it's just that I don't think the points you were making stood up to scrutiny and appealing to a command team that's shown poor judgment wasn't a good way to convince me that Poe's actions were wrong.

I'd actually like to know what you think the in-universe purpose for the space B-17s might be because I frankly can't see one. Out of universe it's all just taking the WWII combat in space to a ridiculous extreme.

[Crazedwraith]

Fine, Jub. I don't care enough to continue this, you win.

Why bother engaging me in the first place if you didn't want to debate?

Are you are a shitty winner on top of everything else?

[Jub]

Sorry, I actually edited my post but you ninja'd my edit.

But if you want to have a go at me as a person anyway I invite you to take your best shot.

[Patroklos]

I have seen the utility of “escorts” used to justify not splitting up the rebel fleet and preventing the FO from using fighters to end the chase multiple times. This is not a thing. When the last escort is destroyed there is significant screen and in universe time before the failed evacuation by cloaked-easily-seen-by-the-naked-eye transports. If the escorts were a issue, there should have been an FO figher attack as soon as they were gone.

Also, there should have been FO fighter screens around the Rebel fleet to prevent exactly what they tried. Chalk that up to something I (and anyone, fuck you movie) would have done in command.