Is Holdo a good leader?

[Patroklos]

We all understand that the bombers were always going to die, right? That by the time Leia decides to call off the dreadnaught attack the bombers are already in position. We know how slow they move, and we know how far away the Raddus is.

They were never going to make it back. Not only that, had Leia waited for them to get back, the dreadnaught would have blasted the Raddus.

As for the original attack plan, Leia knew about it and presumably approved of it. There is nothing suggesting the whole thing was a Poe secret op, the disagreement was whether to abort it or not, not whether the initial idea of the attack was stupid. It was stupid, and both Poe and Leia are stupid.

Also, what happens if a dreadnaught didn’t show up? You have all these bombers attacking Resurgents? What possible purpose does maintaining these bombers serve outside the specific circumstance we see them used, and even then they only barely pull it off at 100% casualties due to extreme suspension of disbelief killing luck/writers fiat.

[Crazedwraith]

Reluctant to get into another discussion about the bombers. Seriously this exact same thing is talked about in the Crait thread.

But according to wiki: They do have hyperdrives.* So their slow sublight speed might not necessarily prevent their escape.

*Information sourced from the TLJ ICS book

[ray245]

The bombers feels like another one of Rian Johnson's short-sightedness. What's the point of them? Yes, they evoke WW2 bombers, but so what?

They're too slow to do anything because they are always going to be sitting ducks.

[Gandalf]

The bombers feels like another one of Rian Johnson's short-sightedness. What's the point of them? Yes, they evoke WW2 bombers, but so what?

They're too slow to do anything because they are always going to be sitting ducks.

Maybe they should be used with some sort of escort?

[FaxModem1]

The bombers feels like another one of Rian Johnson's short-sightedness. What's the point of them? Yes, they evoke WW2 bombers, but so what?

They're too slow to do anything because they are always going to be sitting ducks.

Maybe they really are the space equivalents of WW2 bombers, and are the Resistance's means of orbital bombardment?

[ray245]

The bombers feels like another one of Rian Johnson's short-sightedness. What's the point of them? Yes, they evoke WW2 bombers, but so what?

They're too slow to do anything because they are always going to be sitting ducks.

Maybe they should be used with some sort of escort?

Why not use bombers that need less escort in the first place?

[Gandalf]

Why not use bombers that need less escort in the first place?

Because armed resistance movements don't always get the best choice of gear, so they have to make do with what they have.

[ray245]

Because armed resistance movements don't always get the best choice of gear, so they have to make do with what they have.

Whether they get good gear is besides the point, the question is why did anyone design a bomber that is slow and effectively useless, when we saw plenty of even older bombers with better speed and manoeuvrability?

[Gandalf]

Because armed resistance movements don't always get the best choice of gear, so they have to make do with what they have.

Whether they get good gear is besides the point, the question is why did anyone design a bomber that is slow and effectively useless, when we saw plenty of even older bombers with better speed and manoeuvrability?

"Effectively useless." You saw that bit where their bombs fucked up a dreadnought, right?

In a scenario with better fighter supremacy (like a space to planet bombardment), they would be pretty obscenely useful.

[ray245]

"Effectively useless." You saw that bit where their bombs fucked up a dreadnought, right?

In a scenario with better fighter supremacy (like a space to planet bombardment), they would be pretty obscenely useful.

Only because the FO are led by idiots? If you design a bomber that only works when you have absolute fighter supremacy, then you are building a bomber in a scenario where you've already won the fight.

[Gandalf]

Better != absolute. Either read better or don't distort what I'm saying.

[ray245]

Better != absolute. Either read better or don't distort what I'm saying.

We saw the bombers being escorted by fighters and they still got down down in droves. How much fighter superiority do you need for the bombers to be effective? If it requires so many fighter escorts that you might as well be spending the resources to build different bombers or capital ships, then it is effectively useless.

From what I saw on screen, you effectively needed absolute fighter superiority to get "better" at protecting the bombers. Better and absolute is the same thing in this scenario.

[FaxModem1]

Getting this back to Holdo, as the bombers are more a discussion in the Battle of Crait thread: Is there a way Holdo could have utilized Poe, the hero of Starkiller Base, that you think Poe would have agreed to, or would he have mutinied no matter what?

[Gandalf]

We saw the bombers being escorted by fighters and they still got down down in droves. How much fighter superiority do you need for the bombers to be effective? If it requires so many fighter escorts that you might as well be spending the resources to build different bombers or capital ships, then it is effectively useless.

From what I saw on screen, you effectively needed absolute fighter superiority to get "better" at protecting the bombers. Better and absolute is the same thing in this scenario.

They had one wing of fighters as escort against the fuckton that the dreadnought threw at them. Still one got through and blew up the dreadnought, so they were already effective, just with a shit survival rate because Poe is a fucking idiot who threw lives away for some heroism.

Getting this back to Holdo, as the bombers are more a discussion in the Battle of Crait thread: Is there a way Holdo could have utilized Poe, the hero of Starkiller Base, that you think Poe would have agreed to, or would he have mutinied no matter what?

Send him on a suicide run in his X-wing? Poe is evidently prone to impulsive quests for glory, so he's quite the liability if people don't agree with him.

[ray245]

Getting this back to Holdo, as the bombers are more a discussion in the Battle of Crait thread: Is there a way Holdo could have utilized Poe, the hero of Starkiller Base, that you think Poe would have agreed to, or would he have mutinied no matter what?

Get him in charge of managing supplies on the shuttles? That will give him the impression that the resistance is finding a way to ensure there is adequate supplies to carry on the fight?

Keep him busy enough with work that he simply don't have time to plan a mutiny? An idle soldier is a dangerous soldier.

They had one wing of fighters as escort against the fuckton that the dreadnought threw at them. Still one got through and blew up the dreadnought, so they were already effective, just with a shit survival rate because Poe is a fucking idiot who threw lives away for some heroism.

And how many wings of escorts is needed before the bombers have a good survival rate? Because if a bomber requires a massive fighter escort, plus some trickery to disable the enemy ships' point-defence, you might as well spend the resources building other warships or fighters.

[Vendetta]

And how many wings of escorts is needed before the bombers have a good survival rate? Because if a bomber requires a massive fighter escort, plus some trickery to disable the enemy ships' point-defence, you might as well spend the resources building other warships or fighters.

The bombers were never intended to attack enemy warships, they were intended to attack planetary surface installations that would have a much lower density of ground fire and which could be attacked from much higher altitudes because they can't attempt to evade.

They were being prepped as a last ditch assault against the Dreadnought if it was required to give sufficient time to evacuate, but it wasn't.

If they'd not done the attack run it would have been much easier for the fighters to screen them against pursuit because they would have been away from the enemy ship and its point defence, so even if some were lost, fewer would have been (and fewer fighters because a lot of the fighter screen got killed as well).

[ray245]

The bombers were never intended to attack enemy warships, they were intended to attack planetary surface installations that would have a much lower density of ground fire and which could be attacked from much higher altitudes because they can't attempt to evade.

They were being prepped as a last ditch assault against the Dreadnought if it was required to give sufficient time to evacuate, but it wasn't.

If they'd not done the attack run it would have been much easier for the fighters to screen them against pursuit because they would have been away from the enemy ship and its point defence, so even if some were lost, fewer would have been (and fewer fighters because a lot of the fighter screen got killed as well).

The point is I don't see why the bombers are a good design for attacking planetary surface installations either. Because a planetary defense force can still deploy fighters that can easily reach space.

Also, can we please get back on topic? If you want to talk about the bombers, discuss it in a seperate thread as I'll stop replying to anyone trying to derail the discussion.

[The Romulan Republic]

Can you prove that statement?

Um, the fact that the bombers only attacked the dreadnought because Poe violated orders? It was pretty clearly not the plan for those bombers to attack the dreadnought, unless I'm forgetting something about the scene.

Maybe because Poe only lost a few dozen bombers for a Dreadnought whereas Holdo lost 3 capital ships, and thousands of lives to manage the same.

First, Holdo's goal was never to take out a dreadnought, so that's not a fair comparison. Unlike Poe, she only attacked a dreadnought when doing so was strategically necessary, after the prior plan had been fatally compromised. At which point, she managed to kill a larger dreadnought (also the enemy's capital) plus a bunch of escorts for the price of one badly-damaged cruiser that was going to be lost anyway, and one life (her own). So, arguably much better than Poe on the dreadnought-killing score.

As to the earlier mishaps of the Resistance fleet- I love how that's entirely Holdo's fault and has absolutely nothing to do with Poe and DJ exposing her plan to the First Order.

Like I said- fans will bend over backwards to attack every other aspect of this film. And bend over backwards to vindicate Poe.

[FaxModem1]

Maybe because Poe only lost a few dozen bombers for a Dreadnought whereas Holdo lost 3 capital ships, and thousands of lives to manage the same.

First, Holdo's goal was never to take out a dreadnought, so that's not a fair comparison. Unlike Poe, she only attacked a dreadnought when doing so was strategically necessary, after the prior plan had been fatally compromised. At which point, she managed to kill a larger dreadnought (also the enemy's capital) plus a bunch of escorts for the price of one badly-damaged cruiser that was going to be lost anyway, and one life (her own). So, arguably much better than Poe on the dreadnought-killing score.

As to the earlier mishaps of the Resistance fleet- I love how that's entirely Holdo's fault and has absolutely nothing to do with Poe and DJ exposing her plan to the First Order.

Like I said- fans will bend over backwards to attack every other aspect of this film. And bend over backwards to vindicate Poe.

The issue with that is that even before DJ's betrayal and Poe's mutiny, she cost the fleet two ships and their captains. Her plan A still relied on two experienced captains giving their lives needlessly, as has been talked about before. That's not on anyone but Holdo and potentially Leia.

And her plan still relied on cloaks that were untested compared to the newly established superior First Order sensors. It's possible that their cloaking devices would pass muster and sneak past the First Order fleet unscathed. However, riding everything on such devices is a desperate gamble. One that is avoidable by buying coaxium, fueling up their transports, and off loading the passengers and crew of the Raddus in waves to an established rally point.

Poe's idiocy and DJ's selling them out didn't do them any favors(nor did Finn and Rose not hiring the guy they were actually supposed to be looking for, or parking in a designated parking spot), but Holdo did have other options to pursue that didn't rely on the First Order just forgetting to scan for cloaked vessels..

[tezunegari]

Can you prove that statement?

Um, the fact that the bombers only attacked the dreadnought because Poe violated orders? It was pretty clearly not the plan for those bombers to attack the dreadnought, unless I'm forgetting something about the scene.

The bombers were already in a holding position for the attack.
It was always part of the plan for them to attack which also made me believe that the Resistance either knew about a Siege Dreadnought being brought in or they expected it.

The attack run of the bombers had to wait until the defense of the Dreadnought was destroyed... by Poe.
Once he had done so, Leia gave the order to abort (and waited there while being the target of the dreadnought instead of hauling ass once Poe ignored her order to abort).

There was always a plan to attack with the bombers, to exchange them for the Resistance ships while they evacuate.

IMO Poe saw the potential for a strategic victory: the destruction of a Fleetkiller with only a small wing of bombers because if competently lead the Dreadnought would not have such a glaring opening in the defense screen (just like Captain Canady mentioned when he said "We should have launched [the TIEs] five minutes ago!") and would require the sacrifice of capital ships to take down.

A morale boost to show others that the Resistance can fight back.

And if I remember correctly, most of the losses in that scene were caused by a TIE fighter impacting a bomber causing friendly fire and taking out the other bombers close by. Only one bomber goes down on screen due to enemy fire. (And boy does that one go down fast, as if it had no shields or armor at all)

Like I said- fans will bend over backwards to attack every other aspect of this film. And bend over backwards to vindicate Poe.

because Poe's action follow the ace pilot trope... and there is a reason why tropes exists: they work because they are recognizable.
If they had limited the subversions in that shitpile of subversions to one or at the most two... if they had depicted Holdo from the beginning as a competent leader (who keeps the crew informed "We have a plan, Opsec applies, expect orders soon.") and made her arc about finding the spy she suspects to be aboard (with a heavy leaning on Finn... as the only recent addiction and first FO deserter) it would have worked.

But Rian Johnson had to pile up the subversion to the point were the subversion became the trope.

[Patroklos]

Reluctant to get into another discussion about the bombers. Seriously this exact same thing is talked about in the Crait thread.

But according to wiki: They do have hyperdrives.* So their slow sublight speed might not necessarily prevent their escape.

*Information sourced from the TLJ ICS book

X-wings and A-wings also have hyperdrive. Every single surviving star fighter chose to dock with Raddus instead of using them.

[Knife]

Indeed, the reason the use of the bombers is important is the silly notion of Poe v Holdo. Poe's fighter is heavily modified, the bombers are there ready to strike at the beginning of the movie. It's the FUCKING PLAN. Leia got cold feet, tried to pull them out. Poe pushed forward, the Bomber commander pushed forward.

The fact that Poe was 'in trouble' about it is just really shitty writing. It's an act of plot that Poe was wrong. It's an act of plot that Holdo was somehow right.

[Knife]

Just watched the scene on youtube. Poe was actively taking out the surface guns and called in the bombers. Right after the Dreadnought captain ordered the launch of fighters, figuring out what Poe was doing. Those bombers where on the way. It was the plan.

[Vendetta]

Indeed, the reason the use of the bombers is important is the silly notion of Poe v Holdo. Poe's fighter is heavily modified, the bombers are there ready to strike at the beginning of the movie. It's the FUCKING PLAN. Leia got cold feet, tried to pull them out. Poe pushed forward, the Bomber commander pushed forward.

It was the plan until the evacuation was successfully completed at which point it was no longer tactically necessary.

Which was when Leia ordered the abort and Poe did it anyway because he's an idiot who doesn't know how to run an insurgency.

(Hint: Successful insurgencies, like the US revolutionaries, do not becomes successful by scoring big flashy victories but by husbanding their forces effectively. For a resource limited rebel force, not losing stuff is more valuable than blowing up enemy stuff)

[Knife]

So ponderous slow bombers are almost on site and it's a good plan to pull them back? And even still, that choice is on the bomber commander. If anything, Leia was being a bad commander at that point. Let alone the whole plan was shit, which would be Leia again.

Of course, it's just boils down to shitty writing.