You command the Battle of Crait (RAR).

[ray245]

Fine, Jub. I don't care enough to continue this, you win.

I wasn't trying to drive you off it's just that I don't think the points you were making stood up to scrutiny and appealing to a command team that's shown poor judgment wasn't a good way to convince me that Poe's actions were wrong.

I'd actually like to know what you think the in-universe purpose for the space B-17s might be because I frankly can't see one. Out of universe it's all just taking the WWII combat in space to a ridiculous extreme.

I feel that the recent directors failed to understand why Lucas did what he did with the OT when they tried to emulate the OT. Invoking WW2 movie footage isn't purely for the sake of invoking WW2 movies, but rather because WW2 movies managed to capture a sense of dynamism and kinetic energy in those scenes.

Both JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson have missed the point of Lucas' direction and some elements of their fanboyism is affecting the movies imo. It's trying to pay tribute to the OT at the surface level, but for all the wrong reasons. Being gen-X SW fans can blind directors and the rest of their production staff from seeing any potential problems.

[PhoenixKnig]

You can be as skeptical as you want; it's canon per Solo that the fuel to run half a dozen Star Destroyers for a significant operational period fits into two Wookiee-portable suitcases.

I forgot that, but I'll concede to canon, however stupid it is in this case.

Also, just one more thing to reinforce my view that Solo is Worst Star Wars Movie Ever.

I haven't rewatched Solo since it came out on Netflix, so I'm probably forgetting some details. But offhand: perhaps coaxium, given its apparent relative rarity, isn't the ONLY source of hyperspace fuel in the galaxy. Certainly it seems to me that there should be some other hyperdrive fuels, perhaps less efficient or more readily available or whatever. Coaxium is simply special.

Now if that's the ONLY hyperdrive fuel out there... welp.

Coaxium was mentioned before Solo

[Patroklos]

Technically correct but not really, the earliest mentions ere in pre-release tie in material directly affiliated its the movie.

[Knife]

That fact that they had a low fueled cruiser in the first place is so mind numbingly stupid. That they didn't immeadiately jump to a Republic system with a strong Naval base is mind numbingly stupid.

Again, it's such bad writing, it's hard to critic.

[The Romulan Republic]

That fact that they had a low fueled cruiser in the first place is so mind numbingly stupid. That they didn't immeadiately jump to a Republic system with a strong Naval base is mind numbingly stupid.

Again, it's such bad writing, it's hard to critic.

Its perfectly easy to come up with plausible explanations consistent with the film, but of course you're not going to do that if your goal is simply to prove that the film is the worst thing ever.

The Republic was falling very fast to the FO. That suggests large numbers of First Order sympathizers/collaborators in the NR power structure. You'd have to choose the base you went to to refuel really carefully, under those circumstances.

[Jub]

Its perfectly easy to come up with plausible explanations consistent with the film, but of course you're not going to do that if your goal is simply to prove that the film is the worst thing ever.

The Republic was falling very fast to the FO. That suggests large numbers of First Order sympathizers/collaborators in the NR power structure. You'd have to choose the base you went to to refuel really carefully, under those circumstances.

The movie, and the ST in general, is just written for shit.

Things that, without reading a novelization, I'd like answered are:

1) How did the first order build up a planet killer in secret without the resources of most of the galaxy behind it? Even beyond that, how do they have so much war material in general and why did nobody stop them while they were building it all?

2) Why is the NR so impotent and where are there fleets and armies that must be out keeping systems that stayed loyal to the Empire in line?

3) If the NR isn't doing anything to stop them why aren't people flocking to fight against the Empire 2.0? Did they enjoy rule under a dictator, are they burnt out on war, or is the Resistance just shit at recruiting?

There is just too much unanswered for fans to not want to see smarter courses of action played out on screen. The writers are just bending things in knots to fit their setpiece heavy stories and people that can think logically are sitting here pulling out our hair and asking why every character has to be written like a moron.

[The Romulan Republic]

Although its not spelled out in detail on-screen, its not hard to figure out a plausible sequence of events:

To question 1): How much territory the FO controls is never stated, but it clearly includes control of some planets. They're definitely not an insurgent force- they very clearly are armed like and fight like a conventional military power. No, they don't control the whole galaxy, but they pretty clearly don't need to control the whole galaxy to build a planet killer. The Empire built two death stars largely in secret, meaning it was a small enough fraction of their resources that they could pretty much hide the expenditure.

If it was up to me, I'd add something about Starkiller initially being an Imperial weapons project that the FO took over, as well. But that's just my personal theory.

To question 2) and 3): Part of the point of TLJ is that there's a great deal of apathy and cynicism towards the whole conflict in the galaxy. The new EU corroborates this, IIRC, with the NR having a pacifist wing that wants to demilitarize even in the face of the FO. And I buy that. This is a galaxy that knew a millennia of relative peace, and then two (now three) massive, devastating galactic wars, plus the despotism of the Empire, in the span of sixty years or so. So yeah, the likely explanation is that a lot of the population is burned out, and would rather accept "peace at any price" than fight yet another round of war. This is pretty much the whole point of both DJ, and the scene where Leia sends out her broadcast and nobody answer.

Plus, yeah, some Imperial sympathizers no doubt remain. Hell, there are Polish and Russian Neo-Nazis today. There are always going to be some people looking for a strong man to come along and Make (Insert Country) Great Again.

[Jub]

To question 1): How much territory the FO controls is never stated, but it clearly includes control of some planets. They're definitely not an insurgent force- they very clearly are armed like and fight like a conventional military power. No, they don't control the whole galaxy, but they pretty clearly don't need to control the whole galaxy to build a planet killer. The Empire built two death stars largely in secret, meaning it was a small enough fraction of their resources that they could pretty much hide the expenditure.

If it was up to me, I'd add something about Starkiller initially being an Imperial weapons project that the FO took over, as well. But that's just my personal theory.

The Empire controller pretty much all of the galaxy and spent many years developing the technology to build the Death Star. Even if the First Order controls a sector or two that would be like Chile developing and deploying nuclear bombs in secret in the 50's. Only the First Order didn't just build a Fatman level bomb, they built ICBMs and a fleet of carriers too and nobody noticed.

That's hacky and stupid no matter how you try to rationalize it.

To question 2) and 3): Part of the point of TLJ is that there's a great deal of apathy and cynicism towards the whole conflict in the galaxy. The new EU corroborates this, IIRC, with the NR having a pacifist wing that wants to demilitarize even in the face of the FO. And I buy that. This is a galaxy that knew a millennia of relative peace, and then two (now three) massive, devastating galactic wars, plus the despotism of the Empire, in the span of sixty years or so. So yeah, the likely explanation is that a lot of the population is burned out, and would rather accept "peace at any price" than fight yet another round of war. This is pretty much the whole point of both DJ, and the scene where Leia sends out her broadcast and nobody answer.

Plus, yeah, some Imperial sympathizers no doubt remain. Hell, there are Polish and Russian Neo-Nazis today. There are always going to be some people looking for a strong man to come along and Make (Insert Country) Great Again.

That's not exactly realistic or within human nature. Look at how quickly everybody was ready to take up arms again when WWII kicked off just two decades after WWI killed off most of a generation of Europe's young men. Nobody wanted a war, but once it was clear war was going to happen anyway everybody made ready to fight if they had to. This would be like writing WWII alt-history fiction but instead of a war everybody just rolls over for Hitler because they'd rather not fight a second war so close to the last one.

It's dumb and no justification will make it less so.

[houser2112]

To question 2) and 3): Part of the point of TLJ is that there's a great deal of apathy and cynicism towards the whole conflict in the galaxy. The new EU corroborates this, IIRC, with the NR having a pacifist wing that wants to demilitarize even in the face of the FO. And I buy that. This is a galaxy that knew a millennia of relative peace, and then two (now three) massive, devastating galactic wars, plus the despotism of the Empire, in the span of sixty years or so. So yeah, the likely explanation is that a lot of the population is burned out, and would rather accept "peace at any price" than fight yet another round of war. This is pretty much the whole point of both DJ, and the scene where Leia sends out her broadcast and nobody answer.

Plus, yeah, some Imperial sympathizers no doubt remain. Hell, there are Polish and Russian Neo-Nazis today. There are always going to be some people looking for a strong man to come along and Make (Insert Country) Great Again.

That's not exactly realistic or within human nature. Look at how quickly everybody was ready to take up arms again when WWII kicked off just two decades after WWI killed off most of a generation of Europe's young men. Nobody wanted a war, but once it was clear war was going to happen anyway everybody made ready to fight if they had to. This would be like writing WWII alt-history fiction but instead of a war everybody just rolls over for Hitler because they'd rather not fight a second war so close to the last one.

It's dumb and no justification will make it less so.

You're kidding, right? The major powers bent over backwards to avoid war in the 1930s, because they were so weary from WWI. They let Germany re-arm and gobble up its neighbors to avoid having to commit troops to stop them and the fascists were thought to be a useful bulwark to the communists.

It's very believable that the galaxy was so weary from the Clone Wars and the Rebellion that soon followed that they didn't have the will to stand up to the First Order. I just wish that this was made more explicit in the movie.

[Civil War Man]

Although its not spelled out in detail on-screen, its not hard to figure out a plausible sequence of events:

To question 1): How much territory the FO controls is never stated, but it clearly includes control of some planets. They're definitely not an insurgent force- they very clearly are armed like and fight like a conventional military power. No, they don't control the whole galaxy, but they pretty clearly don't need to control the whole galaxy to build a planet killer. The Empire built two death stars largely in secret, meaning it was a small enough fraction of their resources that they could pretty much hide the expenditure.

If it was up to me, I'd add something about Starkiller initially being an Imperial weapons project that the FO took over, as well. But that's just my personal theory.

As Jub mentioned, it's easier to buy the Empire pulling it off because they basically ruled the entire galaxy with only a partisan resistance and a few independent fiefdoms operating outside their control. The sequels, on the other hand, are incredibly vague about what the First Order actually is, so even answers to simple questions like "how many systems do they control" can change on a moment-to-moment basis.

That said, I would have personally been all for having all the super-advanced First Order tech actually be old Imperial projects they salvaged. It would distinguish them from the Empire by establishing them as a threat, but for different reasons. While the Empire utilizes horrific weapons very deliberately in order to maximize the terror created as part of a campaign to cow the rebellious population into submission (see destroying Alderaan instead of Dantooine because the latter is too remote), the First Order uses them on fleeting whims because, having effectively just been given this technology on a silver platter, they have no real respect for the power of what they possess. They'd be the Star Wars equivalent of those rogue states or terrorist groups from Tom Clancy-type stories who get their hands on nukes that fell through the cracks after the break-up of the Soviet Union, and then start nuking everything they don't like just because they can.

Instead, the FO pulls superweapons out of their butts, effortlessly decapitates the only other even remotely established superpower in the setting, and immediately jump to the level of overwhelming military force that no one is apparently willing or able stand against. And for the cynics among us, a major reason for this happening is because making it about heroic partisans versus evil empire makes it more like the OT.

Won't comment about questions 2 and 3, because the New Republic was so poorly established in the movies it's almost comical. When I originally saw TFA, I thought Starkiller Base blew up Coruscant because they don't even bother telling us what the names of the planets are, so I inferred that destruction of the Republic capital must have meant destruction of Coruscant. Hell, I don't think they mention it in TLJ, either, so I'd probably still think it was Coruscant that was destroyed if I didn't come here. At that level of world building, asking why the New Republic didn't do more to contain the First Order is like asking why Narnia wasn't doing more to stop Hitler during WWII.

[Jub]

You're kidding, right? The major powers bent over backwards to avoid war in the 1930s, because they were so weary from WWI. They let Germany re-arm and gobble up its neighbors to avoid having to commit troops to stop them and the fascists were thought to be a useful bulwark to the communists.

It's very believable that the galaxy was so weary from the Clone Wars and the Rebellion that soon followed that they didn't have the will to stand up to the First Order. I just wish that this was made more explicit in the movie.

That was two decades after a war that wiped out most of the young men in Europe and once war was inevitable people fought back. They waited too long, but give them sixty years to recover from a lost generation instead of twenty and you have a new ball game.

Plus, as you mentioned, the fascists were often seen as a lesser evil than the communists. Such a divide of ideals doesn't exist in Star Wars so there is no reason to let the FO form a buffer state, so even a war weary-republic especially one who's now stuck spending decades putting out fires from the last war, would likely jump on the First Order and stamp them out before they can kick off a second Galactic war.

Plus, how did the FO build up so quickly, do they control an area equivalent to space Germany? If so, how did they gain control of it? Why didn't the Rebellion come New Republic forces stamp them out after they dealt with all the other brush fires? Hell, why isn't the birth of the New Republic proper our ST? It sounds more interesting than what we're actually getting.

[Patroklos]

They don’t even tell us what “first order” means. And let’s all be honest, they spit out that name from a random buzz word generator. There was no creative thought put into it at all.

[NeoGoomba]

As Jub mentioned, it's easier to buy the Empire pulling it off because they basically ruled the entire galaxy with only a partisan resistance and a few independent fiefdoms operating outside their control. The sequels, on the other hand, are incredibly vague about what the First Order actually is, so even answers to simple questions like "how many systems do they control" can change on a moment-to-moment basis.

That said, I would have personally been all for having all the super-advanced First Order tech actually be old Imperial projects they salvaged. It would distinguish them from the Empire by establishing them as a threat, but for different reasons. While the Empire utilizes horrific weapons very deliberately in order to maximize the terror created as part of a campaign to cow the rebellious population into submission (see destroying Alderaan instead of Dantooine because the latter is too remote), the First Order uses them on fleeting whims because, having effectively just been given this technology on a silver platter, they have no real respect for the power of what they possess. They'd be the Star Wars equivalent of those rogue states or terrorist groups from Tom Clancy-type stories who get their hands on nukes that fell through the cracks after the break-up of the Soviet Union, and then start nuking everything they don't like just because they can.

Instead, the FO pulls superweapons out of their butts, effortlessly decapitates the only other even remotely established superpower in the setting, and immediately jump to the level of overwhelming military force that no one is apparently willing or able stand against. And for the cynics among us, a major reason for this happening is because making it about heroic partisans versus evil empire makes it more like the OT.

They could have so easily gone down this route with Snoke being a castoff Hand or Inquisitor, nabbing a bunch of Hitler Youth-esque "First Order" kids and racing for some Imperial Cache.

Hell, they could have just made Snoke Zemo from Captain America: Civil War - a former Imperial with such a raging hard-on for killing Luke Skywalker that he'd commit galactic-level terrorist acts just to draw him out.

[The Romulan Republic]

I've long been a vocal proponent of the "Snoke is a surviving Inquisitor" theory, but sadly it has yet to be made officially canon (I suspect because Abrams is going to try some retcon about Snoke in IX, and the EU has been told not to tread on his toes, though I obviously can't say for certain).

[FaxModem1]

I've long been a vocal proponent of the "Snoke is a surviving Inquisitor" theory, but sadly it has yet to be made officially canon (I suspect because Abrams is going to try some retcon about Snoke in IX, and the EU has been told not to tread on his toes, though I obviously can't say for certain).

I think that as long as he's not a clone of Palpatine, we're doing okay.

[The Romulan Republic]

I've long been a vocal proponent of the "Snoke is a surviving Inquisitor" theory, but sadly it has yet to be made officially canon (I suspect because Abrams is going to try some retcon about Snoke in IX, and the EU has been told not to tread on his toes, though I obviously can't say for certain).

I think that as long as he's not a clone of Palpatine, we're doing okay.

Ugg, agreed. With the addition "As long as he's not Plagieus". I always hated that theory, because you could tell that zero thought went into it other than "What already existing character is even more SUPER DUPER POWERFUL than Palpatine?"

I just want him to be some guy with the Force who saw an opportunity in the chaos of the Empire's collapse and took it. He doesn't need to be anything else. Having him as an Inquisitor works- it explains where he got Force training, what his interest in/connection to the Empire/Sith/Vader would be, why he'd have a grudge against Luke (he lost his cushy post as an Inquisitor when Luke took down Palps), and it ties it in nicely with Rebels, without making everything super-interconnected, retreading old ground, or upping the wank factor too much.

I've always seen Snoke as something of a "Dark Side philosopher", with his musings to Kylo and Rey about how champions from the Light and Dark Sides would rise up to oppose each other. My head canon on him is that he's one of the ten or so Imperial Inquisitors under Vader who has never appeared on-screen, that we didn't see him on Rebels because his assignment was more research-based, either tracking down ancient Dark Side artifacts, working on secret Imperial weapons projects (like a planet-destroying hyperspace gun, maybe), or both. That he was therefore safely away from anywhere conspicuous when the Empire went down, but basically lost his institutional backing and became a fugitive, leading to a grudge against Luke/the NR, and him trying to seek out his own "Vader" in Kylo.

It makes so much sense, which is why I'm almost positive the EU won't do it.

[Shroom Man 777]

Well-funded groups secretly amassing galaxy-threatening, or interstellar-scale armed forces has precedence in the setting. The Republic was able to build a secret massive standardized force of mass-produced meatbags relatively quickly - one that could oppose private companies and banks with Von Neuman-manufactured droid forces. So the First Order having done so in some unknown corner of space while infesting the New Republic with Hydra agents is plausible.

A few warfleets and dreadnoughts that can pursue any of the remaining stragglers (i.e. the Resistance left in TLJ) after Starkiller nuked the capital and primary New Republic fleet base. This force would allow the First Order to overmatch any local defense force remaining. Wherever the Raddus and the flotilla fled, if it was a known base, it would be vulnerable.

The New Republic demilitarized most of its territory. Dumb, I know. I bet the Mothmaist liberal centrists were behind this, ironically becoming dupes for the Imperial sympathizers and First Order Hydra agents. I bet the radical Gerrerists tried to argue against this, correctly suspecting Imperial Remnants and other cosmic fascists that needed to be finished, but the Mothmaists were too shocked by how the Partisans led by Bor Gullet and Benthic finished off the nobles and elites in Coruscant and Kuat...

[Rogue 9]

The FO lost a battleship which it has many more. The Resistance lost half it's fighters and all it's bombers to do something it was going to do anyway; escape.

If you think about it, had all those bombers hypered away (I didn't see any kind of carrier ship for them, so I'm assuming they had hyperdrives, they were big enough anyway) along with the fighters rather than engaging the dreadnought, they could well have been flying cover for the Raddus when Kylo Ren and his TIE escort attacked it, preventing him from blowing up the bridge and hangar. They would also have been available to possibly escort the Rebels to Crait, or the bombers could have been unloaded and people could have just filled them up to hyper there separately. A lot of possibilities... wasted.

Now if they hadn't engaged the dreadnought, could it have destroyed their fleet? Possibly, yeah. But if Poe and company had been where they were supposed to be, they could've just... left.

If the withdrawn fighter screen was in a position to fend off the attack by Kylo Ren's fighters, the Fulminatrix, which they would have not destroyed, would have been in a position to annihilate the entire fleet. If they don't destroy the Dreadnought, they either get away clean or they all die.

[FaxModem1]

One thing I want to note is that unlike other cloaking devices in the canon(such as the Seperatist one from Clone Wars), the Rebel transport cloaking devices do not make the vessels invisible to the naked eye. What does this mean for sensors for both the First Order and the cloaking devices of the Resistance?

[Jub]

It probably means they have an over-reliance on electronic tracking via whatever their equivalent to radar is. Even if we assume a larger distance than what is shown on screen you should be able to spot their engine exhaust from the Supremacy. Plus, the explanation for how Rose's cloak even worked in the first place is... She baffled their energy signature using a computer. Even being generous and saying that she could reprogram the IFF transponders and set the engines to burn in a way that looks like another type of craft that's subterfuge and not stealth.

Frankly what it means is that more established canon was taken out back and shot for the sake of Rian's magical chase scene.

[Patroklos]

Well-funded groups secretly amassing galaxy-threatening, or interstellar-scale armed forces has precedence in the setting. The Republic was able to build a secret massive standardized force of mass-produced meatbags relatively quickly - one that could oppose private companies and banks with Von Neuman-manufactured droid forces. So the First Order having done so in some unknown corner of space while infesting the New Republic with Hydra agents is plausible.

A few warfleets and dreadnoughts that can pursue any of the remaining stragglers (i.e. the Resistance left in TLJ) after Starkiller nuked the capital and primary New Republic fleet base. This force would allow the First Order to overmatch any local defense force remaining. Wherever the Raddus and the flotilla fled, if it was a known base, it would be vulnerable.

The New Republic demilitarized most of its territory. Dumb, I know. I bet the Mothmaist liberal centrists were behind this, ironically becoming dupes for the Imperial sympathizers and First Order Hydra agents. I bet the radical Gerrerists tried to argue against this, correctly suspecting Imperial Remnants and other cosmic fascists that needed to be finished, but the Mothmaists were too shocked by how the Partisans led by Bor Gullet and Benthic finished off the nobles and elites in Coruscant and Kuat...

The Republic was the Republic, controlling somewhat analogous territory as the Empire. Even accounting for the centripical forces that led to its decline and civil war, the Republic is orders of magnitude larger and more resource/industry rich than the FO at the worst of its wartime misfortune. It’s still canon that the Core holds the vast majority of the galaxy’s population, wealth and industry. The Republic held all or most of it throughout its varying existence in peace and war. The FO controls none of it, and the limited explaination of who the FO makes them a splinter of a splinter of the Empire and specifically locatedms them in the unknown regions. They name should tell you how insignificant the FO home turf is to the galaxy at large, and we laces them squarely BFE behind the backwater Outer Rim. The Republic wiping itself into shape during the Clone Wars is akin to the US or USSR tapping its natural resource superiority to stomp an initially superior foe. The FO doing what we see in nuWars is like Chiang Kai-Shek losing all of China and retreating to the separated backwater Taiwan, and then Taiwan invading mainland China 30 years later as the overwhelmingly technological and materially dominant conquerer.

It’s stpid. We have to live with the stupid, but we don’t have to carry water for it.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well-funded groups secretly amassing galaxy-threatening, or interstellar-scale armed forces has precedence in the setting. The Republic was able to build a secret massive standardized force of mass-produced meatbags relatively quickly - one that could oppose private companies and banks with Von Neuman-manufactured droid forces. So the First Order having done so in some unknown corner of space while infesting the New Republic with Hydra agents is plausible.

Yup.

A few warfleets and dreadnoughts that can pursue any of the remaining stragglers (i.e. the Resistance left in TLJ) after Starkiller nuked the capital and primary New Republic fleet base. This force would allow the First Order to overmatch any local defense force remaining. Wherever the Raddus and the flotilla fled, if it was a known base, it would be vulnerable.

The New Republic demilitarized most of its territory. Dumb, I know. I bet the Mothmaist liberal centrists were behind this, ironically becoming dupes for the Imperial sympathizers and First Order Hydra agents. I bet the radical Gerrerists tried to argue against this, correctly suspecting Imperial Remnants and other cosmic fascists that needed to be finished, but the Mothmaists were too shocked by how the Partisans led by Bor Gullet and Benthic finished off the nobles and elites in Coruscant and Kuat...

Heh.

But yeah, I see the NR as basically a combination Neo-Imperials, people who are just sick of war and want peace at any price, and well-meaning reformers who wanted to rebuild the Old Republic and differentiate their new government from Palpatine's, but forgot that the thing that made it work without a strong central military for as long as it did was the Jedi Order being able to deal with crises before they got too out of control.

The NR could not be the OR without the Jedi Order, because such a thing was never viable. They were fucked the moment Luke's new order fell, and probably before then.

[FaxModem1]

Phrased like that, it really sounds like we missed the more entertaining story.

[The Romulan Republic]

Hey, I'd love me some political world-building. But we can't have that, no, because OT fans whined about how the boring political scenes sucked in the Prequels.

[Jub]

Hey, I'd love me some political world-building. But we can't have that, no, because OT fans whined about how the boring political scenes sucked in the Prequels.

They did suck in the prequels just not only because they were political.