Is Holdo a good leader?

[Jub]

It was the plan until the evacuation was successfully completed at which point it was no longer tactically necessary.

Which was when Leia ordered the abort and Poe did it anyway because he's an idiot who doesn't know how to run an insurgency.

(Hint: Successful insurgencies, like the US revolutionaries, do not becomes successful by scoring big flashy victories but by husbanding their forces effectively. For a resource limited rebel force, not losing stuff is more valuable than blowing up enemy stuff.

Could the bombers have actually pulled out from there, I know some people assume they'd just hyper out, but if that was the plan why did all the fighters dock before jumping? It seems like the bombers would have had to turn around and ponderously fly back to their command vessel getting shot at by fighters along the way. How many bombers do you think they would have saved using that method?

[Knife]

Indeed. If they could hypered out, they could have hypered in. That makes no sense.

[Gandalf]

I thought that the bombers were going at some predetermined attack speed? At the start of that sequence you can hear someone order it.

[Jub]

I thought that the bombers were going at some predetermined attack speed? At the start of that sequence you can hear someone order it.

That makes the bombers even more useless when we've seen TIE Bombers moving at full tilt make bombing runs. The writing just gets worse with every passing moment.

[Patroklos]

Also, we all understand that this whole sequence only works because 1.) anti-starfighter weapons don’t work against a star fighter and 2.) the dreadnaught has no shields, unlike any other capital ship ever seen, including TLJ.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Fighters seem to get under a cap ship's shields. That's the only reason I can think of for fighters and bombers to be able to harm cap ships while heavy turbo lasers do squat. So, why don't cap ships fire missiles with the same shield-penetrating technology? I assume it's like Skynet tech and only works in the presence of a living, sapient being.

[Gandalf]

So ponderous slow bombers are almost on site and it's a good plan to pull them back? And even still, that choice is on the bomber commander. If anything, Leia was being a bad commander at that point. Let alone the whole plan was shit, which would be Leia again.

Of course, it's just boils down to shitty writing.

The thing about Leia got me thinking, do the Rebellion or Resistance have any good commanders at all? They have people who are skilled at their varied tasks, from space wizards to pilots, but does anyone run it well?

[The Romulan Republic]

So ponderous slow bombers are almost on site and it's a good plan to pull them back? And even still, that choice is on the bomber commander. If anything, Leia was being a bad commander at that point. Let alone the whole plan was shit, which would be Leia again.

Of course, it's just boils down to shitty writing.

The thing about Leia got me thinking, do the Rebellion or Resistance have any good commanders at all? They have people who are skilled at their varied tasks, from space wizards to pilots, but does anyone run it well?

Mon Mothma, under the old Rebellion. Well enough to form a disparate alliance into an effective fighting force that took the fight to the most powerful military machine in galactic history and lived to tell the tale. Bail Organa always seemed to have his shit together too.

Leia's leadership in the ST doesn't seem awful overall, either. Maybe a bit too risk-averse, understandably so given the losses she's suffered. She strikes me as a once very good leader who's finally getting burned out by it all.

Indeed, the reason the use of the bombers is important is the silly notion of Poe v Holdo. Poe's fighter is heavily modified, the bombers are there ready to strike at the beginning of the movie. It's the FUCKING PLAN. Leia got cold feet, tried to pull them out. Poe pushed forward, the Bomber commander pushed forward.

It was the plan until the evacuation was successfully completed at which point it was no longer tactically necessary.

Which was when Leia ordered the abort and Poe did it anyway because he's an idiot who doesn't know how to run an insurgency.

(Hint: Successful insurgencies, like the US revolutionaries, do not becomes successful by scoring big flashy victories but by husbanding their forces effectively. For a resource limited rebel force, not losing stuff is more valuable than blowing up enemy stuff)

[/quote]

Exactly.

Watch the desperate contortions to make Poe always right and anyone who criticizes him wrong (and then use this as proof that the whole movie sucks, except Poe apparently). Note that no one has actually quoted anywhere or shown any clip where its said that the bombers were supposed to attack all along- Knife just asserts that they were because they were in attack position (he says), and we're supposed to assume that... what? That Leia planned all along to attack the Dreadnought, then suddenly lost her nerve for no reason and punished Poe for insubordination for heroically following the original plan. Apparently so, even though there is no proof that Poe's actions were the original plan, nor would Leia changing the battle plan to adapt to changing circumstances mean Poe is suddenly entitled to disobey orders to follow the original plan. But I guess when push comes to shove, even being a beloved OT character isn't enough to save you- if you're against Poe Dameron, your character must be assassinated in order to justify his actions. At least if you're a female character.

[Jub]

Watch the desperate contortions to make Poe always right and anyone who criticizes him wrong (and then use this as proof that the whole movie sucks, except Poe apparently).

You do realize that most people don't actually think Poe is much better than Holdo, right? He's an insubordinate dick who's supposed to be a lovable Han Solo-type rogue who just comes off as smug. That said, his attack run traded a handful of useless space B-17's for a large capital ship and Holdo should have handled him and the whole chase better than she did.

Holdo takes more flak because she was in a more important position and got more people killed than Poe did, not because Poe is perfect.

Note that no one has actually quoted anywhere or shown any clip where its said that the bombers were supposed to attack all along- Knife just asserts that they were because they were in attack position (he says)

If they weren't meant to attack why were they full armed and manned? You don't load and fully crew a bomber for a simple transit flight. They're not fast enough to harass the enemy without taking heavy loses so they clearly weren't meant to tie down an enemy cap ship to buy time for the rest of the fleet to escape.

So again I ask you, what were they doing anywhere near the fleet killer fully armed and crewed if a strike wasn't the plan from the start?

[FaxModem1]

This is why I note Poe's classic signs of Panic in the film. Poe is NOT acting rationally, or as rationally as he can within the circumstances in regards to Holdo's leadership, and Holdo should have noted that if entire sections of her crew are joining him in a mutiny as opposed to trying to calm him down and straighten him out.

That said, he definitely needs to be educated about how Commsec works.

[The Romulan Republic]

This is why I note Poe's classic signs of Panic in the film. Poe is NOT acting rationally, or as rationally as he can within the circumstances in regards to Holdo's leadership, and Holdo should have noted that if entire sections of her crew are joining him in a mutiny as opposed to trying to calm him down and straighten him out.

That said, he definitely needs to be educated about how Commsec works.

That's all true enough.

The problem with judging Holdo is that for most of the film, we don't see things from her perspective- just from Poe's. And that unlike Poe, who we see when he's actually in his element and doing a good job in TFA, we basically only see Holdo when she's thrust into an impossible situation. So I feel that its not fair to judge her on a skewed perspective of her worst day.

I mean, there's no denying that things went badly under Holdo's leadership. But its not like that was all due to her actions, nor is it like anyone else was doing a bang-up job of fixing everything. Any commander would be severely challenged by that set of circumstances. Even Thrawn. Thrawn or Vader might have been able to impose greater discipline in the short term through shear terror, maybe (especially Vader, who in any case could have sensed the mutiny coming and overpowered it by brute force). But they still would have had a demoralized, under-fueled fleet with no sure route of escape, being pursued by a fleet that could have wiped them out in minutes if it were competently commanded.

My point is: its a situation that would strain anyone's abilities. Holdo did okay, considering the circumstances. Poe fucked up, but we know he can do better when he's not at the end of his rope and letting his emotions get the better of him. We know Leia can do better too. Why not extend Holdo the benefit of the doubt, until we see more of how she performed in other situations?

What little we do see of her, after all, outside of her pre-reveal interactions with Poe that are meant to make her look bad, all speaks to someone a lot more capable. We know that Poe had heard of her combat record, and was favorably-impressed by it, before meeting her. We know that Leia is her friend, and trusts her, even after suffering personal and political losses that would likely make her wary of trusting anyone. We know that she backed the Rebellion early on, and that she isn't lacking at all in personal courage. Literally everything we know about her (little though it is) that isn't her arguing with Poe suggests someone a lot more capable than the fandom is giving her credit for.

[Vendetta]

Watch the desperate contortions to make Poe always right and anyone who criticizes him wrong (and then use this as proof that the whole movie sucks, except Poe apparently).

You do realize that most people don't actually think Poe is much better than Holdo, right? He's an insubordinate dick who's supposed to be a lovable Han Solo-type rogue who just comes off as smug. That said, his attack run traded a handful of useless space B-17's for a large capital ship and Holdo should have handled him and the whole chase better than she did.

You missed the point about resource conservation being the primary road to success for insurgents.

Trading the only heavy strike capacity you have for one of many copies of something your opponent has is how you lose wars.

Attacking the dreadnought to prevent it bombarding the base whilst most of the personnel and materiel was still there would have been worth it. Continuing the assault after the base was evacuated and the dreadnought was tactically irrelevant was wasteful and stupid.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yup. Its been gone over again and again. Trading a bomber squadron and part of a fighter squadron for a dreadnought would be a brilliant win if Poe had been fighting a conventional war between peer forces. In an insurgency against a massively more powerful opponent, its a tactical win but a strategic loss, because the FO has plenty more dreadnoughts where that one came from, while the Resistance has no other fighters and bombers. Poe was missing the big picture. Leia, while no doubt also influenced by her reluctance to accept any more losses, was making the right call given their strategic situation, as one would expect given that Leia has decades of experience with fighting in an insurgency.

Also, just an aside, but when I searched "Admiral Holdo fanfiction" on Google, the top result was Poe/Holdo shipping fics. And the third was Holdo/Leia. That has nothing to do with this topic. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Never change internet. Never change.

[FaxModem1]

This is why I note Poe's classic signs of Panic in the film. Poe is NOT acting rationally, or as rationally as he can within the circumstances in regards to Holdo's leadership, and Holdo should have noted that if entire sections of her crew are joining him in a mutiny as opposed to trying to calm him down and straighten him out.

That said, he definitely needs to be educated about how Commsec works.

That's all true enough.

The problem with judging Holdo is that for most of the film, we don't see things from her perspective- just from Poe's. And that unlike Poe, who we see when he's actually in his element and doing a good job in TFA, we basically only see Holdo when she's thrust into an impossible situation. So I feel that its not fair to judge her on a skewed perspective of her worst day.

I mean, there's no denying that things went badly under Holdo's leadership. But its not like that was all due to her actions, nor is it like anyone else was doing a bang-up job of fixing everything. Any commander would be severely challenged by that set of circumstances. Even Thrawn. Thrawn or Vader might have been able to impose greater discipline in the short term through shear terror, maybe (especially Vader, who in any case could have sensed the mutiny coming and overpowered it by brute force). But they still would have had a demoralized, under-fueled fleet with no sure route of escape, being pursued by a fleet that could have wiped them out in minutes if it were competently commanded.

I think a fair comparison would be Captain Jellico from TNG's Chain of Command. We primarily see things from other people's perspective. How he's unnerving the crew, how Riker is balking at his leadership and seeming abandonment of Picard, how . Even though Jellico dismisses Riker, and thinks ill of him as an XO, and relieves him when he thinks he's ill suited for the job, he does come to Riker to try and make peace with him later, though only because he needs him as a pilot. He also assigns Troi to take care of the transition of him as a leader.

Were these ideal choices? No, but he did cave in when needed. And paid attention to morale. We don't know if Holdo assigned someone to keep spirits up, but with her interactions with Poe, it didn't seem like a priority to her. At least, not with his morale.

My point is: its a situation that would strain anyone's abilities. Holdo did okay, considering the circumstances. Poe fucked up, but we know he can do better when he's not at the end of his rope and letting his emotions get the better of him. We know Leia can do better too. Why not extend Holdo the benefit of the doubt, until we see more of how she performed in other situations?

What little we do see of her, after all, outside of her pre-reveal interactions with Poe that are meant to make her look bad, all speaks to someone a lot more capable. We know that Poe had heard of her combat record, and was favorably-impressed by it, before meeting her. We know that Leia is her friend, and trusts her, even after suffering personal and political losses that would likely make her wary of trusting anyone. We know that she backed the Rebellion early on, and that she isn't lacking at all in personal courage. Literally everything we know about her (little though it is) that isn't her arguing with Poe suggests someone a lot more capable than the fandom is giving her credit for.

I think it's mostly because Poe didn't act alone in his mutiny. It's a little hard to react well to the protagonists, or your protagonist organization, reacting to leadership so badly that they consider mutiny a valid option unless they're meant to be showing shades of gray within the organization or how far they've strayed from the path and the need for the protagonists to break the rules.

This has been said before in other threads, but mutinies are an indicator that something has gone majorly wrong. Mutinies in fiction are supposed to only happen if the organization is made up of cutthroats, such as pirates, criminals, etc. I point to the Night Watch mutinies in Game of Thrones, showing that the people in the Night's Watch don't listen to their leadership either because they're no-good criminals(as is the case with Lord Mormont), or because their leader is breaking too many traditions, ideals, sides, etc. and betraying everything they think they're fighting for, to the point that they think their leader is a traitor(as with Jon Snow).

The other case is if the leader is revealed to be some sort of villain, and needs to be stopped. I point here to Admiral Pressman from TNG's The Pegasus. In that case, the crew of the Enterprise refuse to follow his orders and lock him up because of what nefarious schemes he is up to that would ruin the Federation's name and potentially get them all killed due to the reckless use of phase cloaking technology.

If the story was just that Poe was going crazy, and was delusional, that would be one thing. But we do see multiple people join his mutiny. That means that Holdo was having morale problems that can't be rectified by the reveal. It's nothing to do with her supposed cowardice, but her seeming apathy towards her people's lives and morale, as shown by her actions getting two captains killed, which points to bad leadership, same with Poe's squadron and his leadership, which the movie takes the time to call out by having Leia tell him so and slap him in the face. Holdo doesn't receive such reprimands for her getting two ships destroyed and two people killed. The movie is framing her as if she's Captain Jellico meets Admiral Pressman, getting them all killed due to her not being able to see the bigger picture of what they're going through, and doesn't take the time to walk back what really happened.

Let me use an interesting example from Superman: What's so funny about Truth, Justice, and the American Way? The movie version is known as Superman vs the Elite. Warning SPOILERS.

In it, Superman's philosophy is being constantly challenged by a grittier, more violent team of superheroes. Until eventually they challenge him to a fight to the death, as they want their way of just plain killing the bad guys and not caring about the consequences. Superman accepts, and they seem to win. Then the reveal comes, he is really powerful, and when he plays by their rules, he could kill them all in a couple minutes if he wanted to. He mops the floor with them:

"I thought I could treat you people like....people"


At the end of the fight, when it's just down to him and Manchester Black, it's revealed to all be a magic trick. A bunch of sleight of hand and preparation to make sure no one was hurt. It's then shown all the things he did to make sure no one was actually hurt in this demonstration.

*END SPOILERS FOR SUPERMAN VS THE ELITE*

Holdo gets no such reveal, after we had a scene showing how desperate the fleet is by having a ship captain being blasted to death by First Order weaponry as he pilots the ship. This is all according to plan by Holdo. She had no plan whatsoever to save him. He was doomed and Holdo did nothing to try and save him, even though she could have. And we, as an audience, are supposed to just blindly accept that. There's no reveal scene of the Captain coming from behind a curtain and revealing that it was a fake broadcast to make the First Order think they killed him. No, it was all part of Holdo's plan that one of her captains gets killed, and she doesn't bat an eye.

That's pretty hard for audiences to accept from someone who is supposed to be a good guy. That's why it's hard to accept her as a good leader, or give her a chance. We saw people die due to her decisions, and unlike Poe, the movie didn't call her out for it, or reveal that it was all a fakeout.

[Q99]

Holdo's that rare beast in that she's a character who appears quite competent at some things but not the best person for the job (and, like, because the best person for the job was shot into space), who makes rational decisions with somewhat iffy outcomes.

She had morale problems, but she also had reason to believe there was possibly a mole or similar issue. She didn't build a closer relationship with everyone, but she was also already in the middle of a chase- where Leia might've been involved in the original plan- to begin with. Holdo had to deal with being a last-minute commander, and while she had issues with Poe, she didn't have a lot to indicate they'd get all the way up to mutiny, and as noted he had his own questionable decision making.

Holdo's a leader I'd want in my organization and the best choice available (because Poe seriously would've gotten them killed), but she's also not a Leia who could really take charge and manage everyone well even in a situation like that.

Holdo gets no such reveal, after we had a scene showing how desperate the fleet is by having a ship captain being blasted to death by First Order weaponry as he pilots the ship. This is all according to plan by Holdo. She had no plan whatsoever to save him. He was doomed and Holdo did nothing to try and save him, even though she could have.

I don't know what she could've- they had to get to the hidden base, do so without hyperdrive leaps to it (because that'd be obvious), and they needed to buy as much time as possible.

The fleet did not have a lot of options while that tracker, which they didn't know about, was operational.

[FaxModem1]

Holdo gets no such reveal, after we had a scene showing how desperate the fleet is by having a ship captain being blasted to death by First Order weaponry as he pilots the ship. This is all according to plan by Holdo. She had no plan whatsoever to save him. He was doomed and Holdo did nothing to try and save him, even though she could have.

I don't know what she could've- they had to get to the hidden base, do so without hyperdrive leaps to it (because that'd be obvious), and they needed to buy as much time as possible.

The fleet did not have a lot of options while that tracker, which they didn't know about, was operational.

Are you telling me that in the hours that they were running, that they couldn't make the equivalent of a steering wheel lock so that the Captain could run to a shuttle and escape to the Raddus with the rest of the crew?

[Jub]

You missed the point about resource conservation being the primary road to success for insurgents.

You missed the part where those bombers were positioned forward and loaded for bear before Poe ordered the attack. Why else were they there at all if the plan wasn't to attack a capital ship? If the goal was just to run away surely the bombers wouldn't have been armed and likely would have been docked with a capital ship or positioned with the rest of the fleet.

Trading the only heavy strike capacity you have for one of many copies of something your opponent has is how you lose wars.

Do we actually know how many ships of the scale the first order actually has? For all, we know they may have only had a couple of really heavy capital ships and were relying on them to crush lesser forces swiftly.

Attacking the dreadnought to prevent it bombarding the base whilst most of the personnel and materiel was still there would have been worth it. Continuing the assault after the base was evacuated and the dreadnought was tactically irrelevant was wasteful and stupid.

Unless the bombers were among the last ships up (In which case why arm them at all?) they had plenty of time to attack earlier if that was the plan. So either the evacuation went far more quickly than planned or having the bombers armed for an attack was stupid in the first place. Pick your poison.

[Vendetta]

You missed the part where those bombers were positioned forward and loaded for bear before Poe ordered the attack. Why else were they there at all if the plan wasn't to attack a capital ship? If the goal was just to run away surely the bombers wouldn't have been armed and likely would have been docked with a capital ship or positioned with the rest of the fleet.

The bombers were armed and holding station in case an attack on the dreadnought was needed to allow the evacuation to be successful.

It wasn't so Leia aborted the attack because it was no longer necessary, the Dreadnought was irrelevant now, the base was evacuated and the fleet was ready to escape.*

That's the order of events. Leia learns the base evacuation is complete, then she orders the bombers to abort. The simplest and sanest explanation of that is that there's now no point attacking the Dreadnought because nothing it can do in the current situation is tactically relevant.

Poe ignored that because he's a gormless fuck who thinks blowing up a thing your enemy has lots of is worth it because you feel like you "won" even if you caused no meaningful damage and can't replace the resource you expended to do it.

Do we actually know how many ships of the scale the first order actually has? For all, we know they may have only had a couple of really heavy capital ships and were relying on them to crush lesser forces swiftly.

We know at least that that dreadnought is not the only one because Poe talks about them in the plural, and we know from the opening crawl that the First Order is sufficiently well resourced to quickly exploit the destruction of the Republic's capital and home fleet by Starkiller Base to project power across a large volume of the galaxy.

[Jub]

The bombers were armed and holding station in case an attack on the dreadnought was needed to allow the evacuation to be successful.

Given how poorly defended the bombers were that plan would have fallen apart if the FO could have stopped drooling long enough to launch a wing of fighters. If Leia was planning around having fighter superiority that's a terrible plan to start with.

It wasn't so Leia aborted the attack because it was no longer necessary, the Dreadnought was irrelevant now, the base was evacuated and the fleet was ready to escape.*

They had to know how long their base evacuation was likely to take. So were they just extra speedy that day or did they only escape because their enemy was incompetent enough to let them? There aren't any other options.

That's the order of events. Leia learns the base evacuation is complete, then she orders the bombers to abort. The simplest and sanest explanation of that is that there's now no point attacking the Dreadnought because nothing it can do in the current situation is tactically relevant.

You assume that it couldn't turn it's guns to bear on the Resistance fleet before they could all jump. I'm not certain that's the case.

Also, having that second fleet killer during the chase would have fucked the Resistance big time. Their new base wouldn't have held for even the short time it managed in the actual movie had it survived. So yeah, Poe likely saved them all by doing what he did.

Poe ignored that because he's a gormless fuck who thinks blowing up a thing your enemy has lots of is worth it because you feel like you "won" even if you caused no meaningful damage and can't replace the resource you expended to do it.

Again, if the resistance is really just a wing of bombers, a wing of fighters, 2 escort cruisers, and the Raddus they're fucked anyway. They're like the Taliban fighting against the United States annoying but ultimately either doing nothing or poking the bear to the point where they finally bother to wipe you out.

Would it have been smarter for the Taliban not to attack the World Trade Center and Pentagon? Yeah, almost certainly but they did it anyway knowing that they'd likely never be able to strike a larger blow. Poe did the same thing when given the chance preferring to go out in a blaze of glory than to fade away forgotten and alone.

We know at least that that dreadnought is not the only one because Poe talks about them in the plural, and we know from the opening crawl that the First Order is sufficiently well resourced to quickly exploit the destruction of the Republic's capital and home fleet by Starkiller Base to project power across a large volume of the galaxy.

I guess the Gneisenau being put out of action didn't matter to Germany because they had Scharnhorst, Tirpitz, and Bismarck still. You know multiple massive ships that could have seriously threated shipping if the UK had lost a solid chunk of their fleet and been sent reeling in some unexpected naval disaster. Silly me to think that losing a major warship is just something navies are prepared to shrug off rather than being a big fucking deal.

[Shroom Man 777]

I don't think Holdo erred in any major way aside from being lenient on Poe, who was a Hero of the Resistance so she probably presumed he was better than that. And she was given command over all troops, including those who weren't hers, so aside from Op-Sec concerns the morale problem probably wasn't something she could deal with since aside from the Resistance's irregularity she had to balance minding the operation with minding that smorgasbord of demoralized troops unfamiliar with her command.

[FaxModem1]

I don't think Holdo erred in any major way aside from being lenient on Poe, who was a Hero of the Resistance so she probably presumed he was better than that. And she was given command over all troops, including those who weren't hers, so aside from Op-Sec concerns the morale problem probably wasn't something she could deal with since aside from the Resistance's irregularity she had to balance minding the operation with minding that smorgasbord of demoralized troops unfamiliar with her command.

Couldn't Holdo explain something to her subordinates, even if it's vague enough to just reassure them, or if she can't do that for security reasons, lie so that they will be comforted?

If people are scrambling for escape pods, she should know she has a problem, unless things are so bad that no one is reporting this to her.

Now there's a thought, the Resistance is in such shambles that Holdo isn't getting a complete picture because departments aren't checking in with her about what's going on. In which case, she should probably send runners to find out why.

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't think Holdo erred in any major way aside from being lenient on Poe, who was a Hero of the Resistance so she probably presumed he was better than that. And she was given command over all troops, including those who weren't hers, so aside from Op-Sec concerns the morale problem probably wasn't something she could deal with since aside from the Resistance's irregularity she had to balance minding the operation with minding that smorgasbord of demoralized troops unfamiliar with her command.

Couldn't Holdo explain something to her subordinates, even if it's vague enough to just reassure them, or if she can't do that for security reasons, lie so that they will be comforted?

If people are scrambling for escape pods, she should know she has a problem, unless things are so bad that no one is reporting this to her.

Now there's a thought, the Resistance is in such shambles that Holdo isn't getting a complete picture because departments aren't checking in with her about what's going on. In which case, she should probably send runners to find out why.

That is an interesting thought, but like so much of this discussion, we're basically stuck with speculation, since the film deliberately gives us a limited and biased view of events in order to set up the subversion.

We flat-out don't know what orders Holdo gave when Poe's not around. We don't know what her point of view was or why she did or didn't make certain decisions.

I don't think Holdo erred in any major way aside from being lenient on Poe, who was a Hero of the Resistance so she probably presumed he was better than that. And she was given command over all troops, including those who weren't hers, so aside from Op-Sec concerns the morale problem probably wasn't something she could deal with since aside from the Resistance's irregularity she had to balance minding the operation with minding that smorgasbord of demoralized troops unfamiliar with her command.

That's pretty much my feeling as well. No, she didn't turn around the morale disaster, she may even have inadvertently added to it a bit, but morale would have been crumbling anyway due to the severity of the situation, and its a bit much to put all the blame on Holdo for failing to turn it around in the space of 18 hours while assuming command of a critically under-supplied, hopelessly outnumbered fleet with a badly damaged flag ship and a decapitated command structure.

I mean, if you kneecap the world's greatest runner and then tell him to run through quicksand, he's not going to be setting any records, but it doesn't mean that he's a shitty runner now. It means you stacked the deck against him.

[ray245]

If a leader can't rally the troops, she's as good as gone. Take a look at sports manager and how they ended up being sacked once they lost the dressing room. Few, if any managers managed to regain control of the dressing room once they've lost it.

There can be no excuse left for the leader to hide.

[Jub]

That's pretty much my feeling as well. No, she didn't turn around the morale disaster, she may even have inadvertently added to it a bit, but morale would have been crumbling anyway due to the severity of the situation, and its a bit much to put all the blame on Holdo for failing to turn it around in the space of 18 hours while assuming command of a critically under-supplied, hopelessly outnumbered fleet with a badly damaged flag ship and a decapitated command structure.

I mean, if you kneecap the world's greatest runner and then tell him to run through quicksand, he's not going to be setting any records, but it doesn't mean that he's a shitty runner now. It means you stacked the deck against him.

If all it took to make soldiers crumble was a hopeless situation the German sailors fighting under Maximilian von Spee during the battle of the Falklands Islands would have struck colors instead of going down swinging in a fight that lasted just shy of eight-and-a-half hours against a foe that would have let them surrender honorably. Now obviously Holdo couldn't hold Spee's jockstrap but you'd hope she'd at least be competent enough to avoid a full-on mutiny and crew fleeing to escape pods against a foe that will show no quarter.

Now before you say that Spee was a long term commander and that people didn't know or respect Holdo to that same degree at the start of the battle note that Spee and the Scharnhorst were out of the fight less than halfway through the battle. Each captain kept their ship fighting after their commander and the fleet's flagship went down. Hell, Leipzig fought until she had no ammunition left and still never struck her battle ensign. Morale needn't crumble just because a situation is hopeless.

[FaxModem1]

If a leader can't rally the troops, she's as good as gone. Take a look at sports manager and how they ended up being sacked once they lost the dressing room. Few, if any managers managed to regain control of the dressing room once they've lost it.

There can be no excuse left for the leader to hide.

It would have been interesting if in the film, Holdo put Poe in charge of morale, like Jellico did to Troi in Chain of Command. Even if they think themselves above or incapable dealing with morale, having someone in charge of it trying to make things better somehow shows effort being made.

Holdo walking the decks of the ship and interacting with the crew would have worked, or at least ordering someone to do it while she busies herself with more important matters. Akin to how some officers walked among the men in the trenches during the First World war. It didn't make them immediately ready to fight and die for King and Country, but it helped to know that their leader was there and looking directly at the problem, as opposed to being apathetic to their situation.