Legality of Being A Sith In The Old Republic

[Crazedwraith]

I came across this image on imgur today. Basically to the effect that being a Sith Lord would fall under freedom of religion and thus he couldn't be arrested for it. Oddly enough I think he actually said something like that in the RotS novelisation as well so it's not without canon backing. (if pre-disney novels are still canon, I remember that being murky last time I paid attention)

I tend not to agree for two reasons:
1)He wasn't just being arrested for being aSith but the Sith Lord behind the war and confederacy.

2) Considering the republic was at war with the Sith Empire many times, I doubt it counts as a mere 'philosophical outlook' that is constitutionally protected but more akin to being a member of an illegal organisation like the KKK or Nazis or so on.


There's also the matter of how much proof or legal on paper authority the Jedi would have to legally arrest the Chancellor without say the equivalent of impeachment proceedings.

So what say you? Should/would being a Sith be a protected right if not couple with other crimes?

[Gunhead]

After Anakin flat out stated Palpatine was a sith no one commented on the legality of him being one and basically acted on him being the guilty party in the whole civil war that was raging at the time and to force him to give up the temporary powers he'd been given. Yes, we the audience know he's guilty as all hell but the Jedi had no proof. So it's basically a clear cut case of a coup by the Jedi that damned them as this action gave Palpatine justification to declare the Jedi as an enemy to the Republic.
Had the Jedi been successful in either killing or detaining Palpatine it goes to reason they could have gotten the evidence to have the senate sanction their actions after the fact, but as it is they didn't. It's been like 1000 years since the last war with the Sith empire if we assume one had existed, which means no one in the current political environment gave two fucks about someone being or not being a Sith.
Even members of the council doubted Qui-Gon's word on the attacker being a Sith lord, which is pretty much evidence the Sith had passed into myth even by the people who are their sworn enemies. Even Yoda who is possibly old enough to remember, if not the actual times when the Sith were the enemy, at least old enough to remember the Jedi who had fought the Sith and even he wasn't exactly certain of the Sith returning.
That said, I think the actual legality of someone being a Sith is kinda moot point because the legality of someone's affiliation wasn't why the Jedi attempted a coup.

-Gunhead

[Esquire]

Even setting aside that Sith-ishness isn't the core crime here, is there any reason to think that the Republic has freedom of religion, or that of it did that freedom would extend to magically-empowered murder cults?

[Ralin]

I came across this image on imgur today. Basically to the effect that being a Sith Lord would fall under freedom of religion and thus he couldn't be arrested for it. Oddly enough I think he actually said something like that in the RotS novelisation as well so it's not without canon backing. (if pre-disney novels are still canon, I remember that being murky last time I paid attention)

Pretty sure that image caption is directly quoting the exchange from the novelization.

[Lord Revan]

Even setting aside that Sith-ishness isn't the core crime here, is there any reason to think that the Republic has freedom of religion, or that of it did that freedom would extend to magically-empowered murder cults?

Yeah it's bit of an americanism that freedoms are absolute and binary (that either you do or don't have it and if you do everything is permited(sic)), in truth even in USA there are things that are automatically and permanently forbidden. For example a cult of Khorne, the blood god from Warhammer would be one such things, due to murdering people being vital part of worship, thus freedom of worship for cult of the blood god would in permanent conflict with the freedom of not being murdered for other people.

While the Sith aren't a murder cult per se, as murder isn't vital unseperateble part of their rites, the social disruption from the Sith philosophy of "power thru what ever means avaible" would be IMHO enough to put in the list of forbidden cults, even without the Sith wars.

That said the ROTS novelization did imply strongly that there's at least some form of religion freedom in the Galactic Republic.

[The Romulan Republic]

Kind of a moot point in Palpatine's case, as there are a rediculous number of things to charge him on besides being a Sith.

[Lord Revan]

Kind of a moot point in Palpatine's case, as there are a rediculous number of things to charge him on besides being a Sith.

True, but even the "we got religous freedom so you can't prosecute me for being a sith" defense is questionable at best.

[Gunhead]

Kind of a moot point in Palpatine's case, as there are a rediculous number of things to charge him on besides being a Sith.

True, but even the "we got religous freedom so you can't prosecute me for being a sith" defense is questionable at best.

I think the real problem is defining what exactly would be illegal about being a Sith? Being a selfish asshole and having force powers doesn't really cut it. Assuming you could come up with a concrete way to define Sith in a way it's illegal, who would be responsible for policing it and what would be the penalty for being one not to mention how would you prove some is in fact a Sith, or just an asshole with force powers?

-Gunhead

[Lord Revan]

Kind of a moot point in Palpatine's case, as there are a rediculous number of things to charge him on besides being a Sith.

True, but even the "we got religous freedom so you can't prosecute me for being a sith" defense is questionable at best.

I think the real problem is defining what exactly would be illegal about being a Sith? Being a selfish asshole and having force powers doesn't really cut it. Assuming you could come up with a concrete way to define Sith in a way it's illegal, who would be responsible for policing it and what would be the penalty for being one not to mention how would you prove some is in fact a Sith, or just an asshole with force powers?

-Gunhead

Well I suppose the fact that Sith cults (at least in legendaries), caused massive and destructive wars that only ended when the Sith were seemingly killed off, could be reason enough in and of itself. That said there's parts of the sith philosophy that's in conflicts with the ideals of the republic.

[Gunhead]

Well I suppose the fact that Sith cults (at least in legendaries), caused massive and destructive wars that only ended when the Sith were seemingly killed off, could be reason enough in and of itself. That said there's parts of the sith philosophy that's in conflicts with the ideals of the republic.

Assuming above, if cults do anything actively illegal, like promote violence, incite rebellion, spread propaganda you already have laws in the books you can use to go after them, which means the only meaningful effect of having a ban on the Sith would be similar to our bans on outright Nazi groups.
We don't really have anyone in the movies either who hasn't otherwise taken a stand against the republic. I'd suppose Darth Maul is in fact closest to a Sith who is the least guilty of illegal activities. That is until he kills Qui-Gon.

-Gunhead

[NecronLord]

It's a fair bet that Lucas dropped the 'constitutional protection' line (novels are usually based on earlier scripts) because he realised it was daft as the charge is in fact Treason.

[Elheru Aran]

It depends on what the exact status of being a Sith is. Is it a religion? Is it some sort of lifestyle choice? Is it a political affiliation? And so forth.

Obviously it's not a political thing; there aren't enough Sith around for that to matter.

Religion? Fuzzy. There appears to be a certain ethos to being a Sith, that mostly centers around 'be a bad dude/tte'. The Force, particularly the dark side, is part of it, but you can use the Force without deifying it.

Lifestyle choice? Maybe. You can be a Sith without killing a lot of people, at least directly. The ancient Sith were an entire near-human alien species, presumably extinct in the prequel era, and obviously there would be nothing wrong with being simply born into that species.

The closest thing, I suppose, would be that it's a philosophy of life. Real-world parallels can be drawn to Satanism, the Laveyian cult anyway, where it's all about ambition, strength, survival of the fittest, that kind of thing. Use of the Dark Side more or less just amplifies this philosophy by drawing upon these personal urges and pushing them to greater heights. Whether that's actually illegal or not... well, you can't outlaw ambition or passion.

If there was specific laws forbidding people from glorifying or celebrating the Sith in public, similarly to how Germany outlawed the Nazi Party, then that would be one thing. But either these laws don't exist, or have simply lapsed with the passage of time.

[The Romulan Republic]

Kind of a moot point in Palpatine's case, as there are a rediculous number of things to charge him on besides being a Sith.

True, but even the "we got religous freedom so you can't prosecute me for being a sith" defense is questionable at best.

I'd guess it would come down to whether one defines Sith as a religion, or as a hostile organization, yeah.

[RogueIce]

It's a fair bet that Lucas dropped the 'constitutional protection' line (novels are usually based on earlier scripts) because he realised it was daft as the charge is in fact Treason.

And Mace Windu did an absolutely shitty job of making that the reason for the arrest. He doesn't even say why he's arresting the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic he just says he is. And draws his lightsaber to do so.

And his evidence is shitty anyway. Anakin says he thinks Palpatine is the Sith Lord. Sure he later says he's sure of it, but that's a rather flimsy justification for arresting the head of state.

And what is Anakin's evidence, anyway?



Palpatine's mentor taught him about the Force and he knows about the Dark Side. That's all the Supreme Chancellor ever admitted to. He doesn't even admit that he can use the Force, just that he has knowledge of it. Unless the Jedi are the only Force scholars around, and the only ones allowed by law, simply knowing about the Force isn't proof of anything. Yes, Anakin accuses him of being the Sith Lord and Palpatine doesn't deny it, but he doesn't confirm it either.

If the Jedi were really there to arrest him on a charge of treason they did a shitty job of it. And had basically no evidence of, well, anything really. They didn't even give him the chance to rescind his emergency powers, not even bothering to confirm that Grievous was dead, as if that would magically end the war - which it wouldn't necessarily have done because it's not like the CIS had only one General.

It almost doesn't even matter if being a Sith Lord is legal or not. They had proof of basically nothing, unless a Jedi's intuition - and that's all Anakin had and what Mace Windu was going on - is admissible as evidence and beyond any challenge under Republic law.

[Solauren]

In order to become the Sith Master, you have to murder the previous one, at minimum. (In the Darth Plageius novel, Palpatine murdered his family before coming a Sith Lord. Plageius was apparently killing his fellow children from a young age, i.e using a Force Suggestion to make one jump out a window rather high up in the building they were in).

So, on that grounds, being a Sith is illegal, as you have to have committed murder.

[KraytKing]

It almost doesn't even matter if being a Sith Lord is legal or not. They had proof of basically nothing, unless a Jedi's intuition - and that's all Anakin had and what Mace Windu was going on - is admissible as evidence and beyond any challenge under Republic law.

This bit summarizes neatly what you were saying, so I'll just quote this bit, but I'm responding to your whole post.

This is Jedi being Jedi. They aren't politicians. Mace is quoted in Clone Wars saying "Politicians have no voice in Jedi matters." The Jedi aren't used to being disobeyed or contested when they make a ruling. It's worked out for them in the past, but this time they played straight into Palpatine's hands. They actually attempted a coup, but this time there was an army backing up the man they tried to arrest. If it had been up to me, Palpatine's arrest would have been handled by clones and Order 66 would have been a proper military communique delivered through proper channels, not some winkly man who could really be anyone personally calling his marshals.

[RogueIce]

In order to become the Sith Master, you have to murder the previous one, at minimum. (In the Darth Plageius novel, Palpatine murdered his family before coming a Sith Lord. Plageius was apparently killing his fellow children from a young age, i.e using a Force Suggestion to make one jump out a window rather high up in the building they were in).

So, on that grounds, being a Sith is illegal, as you have to have committed murder.

That's only true of the Baneite Sith. There's plenty of Sith history that didn't have this as an absolute requirement. Palpatine - were he to even acknowledge being a Sith, which he doesn't - could simply claim he doesn't follow this tenant. There's a lot of interpretations of religions, after all. Plenty of RL examples where people 'pick and choose' which aspects of their faith they follow. Star Wars doesn't really look deeply into religions outside of Force users but I'd imagine similar patterns hold true.

And even if Palpatine was a Baneite Sith...so what? You still have to prove a murder happened. You can't be guilty of a mundane crime just because your religion hypothetically tells you to commit it. If I believed in some religion that had human sacrifice as a tenant, the police can't arrest me on murder charges based purely on my beliefs alone; they'd need evidence I'd actually murdered somebody first. Same thing with Palpatine as Sith.

This is Jedi being Jedi. They aren't politicians. Mace is quoted in Clone Wars saying "Politicians have no voice in Jedi matters." The Jedi aren't used to being disobeyed or contested when they make a ruling. It's worked out for them in the past, but this time they played straight into Palpatine's hands. They actually attempted a coup, but this time there was an army backing up the man they tried to arrest. If it had been up to me, Palpatine's arrest would have been handled by clones and Order 66 would have been a proper military communique delivered through proper channels, not some winkly man who could really be anyone personally calling his marshals.

Pretty much. They had such confidence in the rightness of their cause - and that the Senate would come around to their side, once they told them "Hey Palpatine was a Sith Lord honest!" - that they went right in. As they always did.

But ol' Palps outplayed them and outplayed them hard. Of course it didn't help that it also turned out Sidious was more powerful than three Jedi Masters and able to - at the very least - hold his own against a fourth, depending on whether or not you believe he was "faking it" when Mace had him cornered as Anakin arrived. Had they been successful in their attempt to arrest/kill the enemy Sith Lord, the Jedi probably were confident they could deal with whatever aftermath. And without Palpatine alive to initiate Order 66, they may have been right.

[K. A. Pital]

Is this seen as a religion, though, or is this (ie the Dark Side) more like open Nazism / fascism, or a murder cult with actual killings? The story of a secret Nazi, or a Kali worshipper who kills routinely, being your head of state is something different from a matter of mere religious disagreement.

[NeoGoomba]

Here's a question that I'm not sure was ever covered in either EU - Force Users who aren't Jedi. Was there any kind of law (heavily prescribed by the Jedi Order no doubt) that would outlaw Force use unless "sanctioned" by the Jedi? Like let's say some Force Sensitive kid somehow slips through the cracks of testing (one more statistic in the Educational System) and goes on to, if not master, but have a reasonable control of their minor Force powers. Would it have been illegal in the Old Republic for said non-Jedi person to use their powers in a non-violent way?

[Civil War Man]

Here's a question that I'm not sure was ever covered in either EU - Force Users who aren't Jedi. Was there any kind of law (heavily prescribed by the Jedi Order no doubt) that would outlaw Force use unless "sanctioned" by the Jedi? Like let's say some Force Sensitive kid somehow slips through the cracks of testing (one more statistic in the Educational System) and goes on to, if not master, but have a reasonable control of their minor Force powers. Would it have been illegal in the Old Republic for said non-Jedi person to use their powers in a non-violent way?

I would assume not, unless the council was planning on having Anakin euthanized when they initially rejected Qui-Gon's petition to have him trained as a Jedi. If it's Jedi policy to reject potential students for being too old (meaning the Jedi didn't catch them early enough), then it's presumably legal to be a Force user who is not a Jedi, so long as you don't break any other laws.

There's also the case of the Lost Twenty, which includes Dooku, so it's also legal for Jedi to leave the Order.

However, I could see some special laws being made targeting independent Force users. Like, for example, using the Force during the commission of a crime may increase the severity of the crime, or be a crime in and of itself, similar to how some real-life jurisdictions have increased penalties if you use a gun to commit a crime.

[Lord Revan]

Here's a question that I'm not sure was ever covered in either EU - Force Users who aren't Jedi. Was there any kind of law (heavily prescribed by the Jedi Order no doubt) that would outlaw Force use unless "sanctioned" by the Jedi? Like let's say some Force Sensitive kid somehow slips through the cracks of testing (one more statistic in the Educational System) and goes on to, if not master, but have a reasonable control of their minor Force powers. Would it have been illegal in the Old Republic for said non-Jedi person to use their powers in a non-violent way?

I would assume not, unless the council was planning on having Anakin euthanized when they initially rejected Qui-Gon's petition to have him trained as a Jedi. If it's Jedi policy to reject potential students for being too old (meaning the Jedi didn't catch them early enough), then it's presumably legal to be a Force user who is not a Jedi, so long as you don't break any other laws.

There's also the case of the Lost Twenty, which includes Dooku, so it's also legal for Jedi to leave the Order.

However, I could see some special laws being made targeting independent Force users. Like, for example, using the Force during the commission of a crime may increase the severity of the crime, or be a crime in and of itself, similar to how some real-life jurisdictions have increased penalties if you use a gun to commit a crime.

From what I gathered there was a sort "gentleman's aggreement" between the Jedi Order and various independent Force users, that independents don't use or train their abilities that much and in exchange the Jedi Order leaves mostly to themselves, in Rogue One it was implied that some of the "Force cults" at Jedha have been in good terms with the Jedi Order dispite arguebly being low end Force users.

So if Anakin Skywalker had become a professional Podracer instead of a jedi the Jedi Order wouldn't had care from what I understood as long Anakin didn't use the Force to cheat or do crimes.

[FaxModem1]

We know what happens to those force users who can't hack it in the Jedi Order, but can't be trained, they are considered washouts and join the Agri Corps. Basically, an organization full of Force using washouts who work to better the galaxy through non-profit work via farming, maintenance, etc.

So, yeah. Chances of Anakin being euthanized are slim to none.

[Civil War Man]

For the record, I was being sarcastic when I talked about Anakin being euthanized for being too old.