EP 9 teaser trailer

[Vympel]

Not at all impressed but it is a teaser trailer. Big question: where the fuck is Rose?

She's in released publicity photos only so far.

Also, why is Kyle Ren hitting a knight of Ren with a Rock Bottom?

I think that's just a random dude. We see another guy in much the same outfit nearby.

[Silver Jedi]

And as long as we're talking about it, TLJ was terrible in it's treatment of characters played by minorities. The 4 characters played by PoC (DJ, Finn, Rose, and Poe)

Poe(‘s actor) wasn’t white?

Óscar Isaac Hernández Estrada was born in Guatemala to a Guatemalan mother and a Cuban father. We can split hairs about race vs ethnicity, but Hispanic immigrants from Central America are generally not considered "white".

[Civil War Man]

I really hope Abrams didn't quickly kill off Rose. If he took the pandering to the TLJ bashers that far, I will denounce the film as racist and misogynist and refuse to recognize it (or probably the whole ST) as canon. I don't even care whether you like Rose. Quickly killing off the first major Asian character in a Star Wars film, presumably to placate the bashers, after her actor was driven off social media by racist and misogynist harrasment, would be an unforgiveably shameful act. Hell, that might be enough to get me to walk out of the theatre. And shout "Fuck JJ Abrams" on my way out the door.

I know it might not count for some people since it was a side story and not a numbered episode, but Chirrut and Baze were technically the first major Asian characters in a Star Wars film. Of course, they were both killed off, but that gets a pass since it was a "Rocks fall, everyone dies" plot.

That said, Tran was at the recent Star Wars celebration, and Abrams is on the record saying he thinks Rose was Johnson's best contribution to Star Wars, so it's a pretty safe bet that she will be showing up again.

While we're on the subject though, I think if you want to talk about Star Wars movies taking risks, TLJ is a bad example. While it does have little twists thrown in to try to differentiate itself from ESB, a lot of the movie does hit a lot of familiar points. A large section of the plot is about a massively outgunned rebel ship trying to escape an Imperial fleet in hot pursuit, but having to do it at sublight speeds because they are unable to escape into hyperspace. The reason they can't escape is different (low fuel vs broken hyperdrive), and the Raddus is bigger than the Falcon, but we've still got that.

Meanwhile, the Jedi plotline is about our neophyte Jedi traveling to a remote world to study under a reclusive Jedi Master in hiding. The Master expresses initial reluctance to teach, but then starts giving lessons anyway. The difference here is that Yoda's reluctance was likely at least partially a test to see if Luke was committed, whereas Luke's lesson are specifically trying to discourage Rey from becoming a Jedi. As a bonus, both also have a lesson that involves a dank cave full of Dark Side energy.

Now, a few pages of ROTJ get shuffled into the script with the throne room scene, where the Jedi character lets themselves be captured by the Sith apprentice and brought to the Master, which ends in the apprentice choosing to kill the master in order to save the Jedi character. The twist here, which is one I actually like, is that Kylo Ren consciously rejects redemption after doing it. It's one of the reasons I think his character fared the best in TLJ, and why I share some of the concerns others have expressed of him fixing the mask in the teaser.

Anyway, back to the similarities with ESB, we've got a confrontation between the Sith apprentice and the Jedi protagonist, which ends in a big reveal about the family of the protagonist. Here, the twist is that there isn't actually anything to reveal, and all the foreshadowing was just a series of red herrings. Unless Abrams retcons it to it being Kylo trying to gaslight Rey, which I think would be a bad idea, though I do like the interpretation of Kylo having an unrequited attraction towards Rey (hence the "but not to me" line), and that a lot of his rage at the end of TLJ is over Rey rejecting him (he views himself as the big hero for saving Rey, and the hero is supposed to get the girl, so Rey's rejection completely disrupts how he thinks the narrative "should" go).

Then, to wrap things up, we have the Imperial walkers attacking the rebel base while the rebels evacuate. Here, the twist is that the planet is salt instead of snow, the attack happens at the end of the movie instead of the beginning, and the evacuation is facilitated by Luke doing some magical hologram trolling instead of a giant fuck-off ion cannon.

All said, the most original sequence in the TLJ was Canto Bight, and there are legitimate criticisms in that it doesn't accomplish anything except getting more characters killed, and the sea of identical tuxedos and Earth-based games of chance makes it feel a bit more mundane.

If you want a better example of a Star Wars movie taking risks, I'd go with Rogue One. It was tonally different from the other films, being more grit and less high adventure. A lot of the ship and vehicle designs were the same or very similar to their OT counterparts, and the main villain was an overly ambitious egotistical bureaucrat, which is less merchandizable. Plus, the aforementioned "Rocks fall, everyone dies" ending.

I still want to see a Guillermo Del Toro Star Wars film. Just let him go nuts.

I personally wished I lived in the universe where Warner Bros let Guillermo do The Hobbit his way, since the plans I heard about it make it sound like it would have been absolutely gorgeous, as opposed to the cut-rate Lord of the Rings knock-off we got.

Sure. She inherits a situation that leia and Poe royally fucked up, and basically fixes it. Her plan looses 3 capital ships, but otherwise saves the entire resistance and makes the FO think that they've wiped them out - perfect guerrilla warfare. Except, Poe et. al. fuck that up, tip the FO off to what's happening, and get almost the entire resistance killed. And like I said, because you're viewing things in the fleet from the pov of Mr toxic masculinity, almost all viewers miss all that and just think holdo is a fuckup for not sharing her plan with Poe. The fact that the vast majority of viewers don't like holdo isn't a failure of the character, it's a failure of story telling.

As a counterpoint, the fact that Holdo not only didn't tell Poe the plan, but refused to even confirm whether a plan existed at all, does reflect poorly on her leadership. She, for whatever reason, let Poe believe that the entirety of the plan was to maintain an unsustainable course and hope to be saved by space magic, which made him desperate enough to go through with a poorly thought out and even more poorly executed plan of his own in an attempt to save the fleet.

In another note, regarding poor handling of minority representation, I'd add the whole Finn-Rose relationship. I'm not entirely sure whether the complete lack of chemistry was supposed to be intentional, indicating a one-sided unrequited infatuation on Rose's part, or whether Johnson was actually trying to push a relationship between them and just handled it really poorly. Hollywood has a very poor track record regarding specifically black man-white woman relationships, which basically don't exist except in movies that are making specific points about race or racism. I have no problem with Finn and Rey remaining platonic friends (Hollywood tries to force too many romances, anyway), but if the whole Finn-Rose relationship was supposed to be a thing, it carries hints of throwing a minority love interest into the mix in order to keep a romance from developing between the black man and white woman protagonists.

[The Romulan Republic]

I really hope Abrams didn't quickly kill off Rose. If he took the pandering to the TLJ bashers that far, I will denounce the film as racist and misogynist and refuse to recognize it (or probably the whole ST) as canon. I don't even care whether you like Rose. Quickly killing off the first major Asian character in a Star Wars film, presumably to placate the bashers, after her actor was driven off social media by racist and misogynist harrasment, would be an unforgiveably shameful act. Hell, that might be enough to get me to walk out of the theatre. And shout "Fuck JJ Abrams" on my way out the door.

I know it might not count for some people since it was a side story and not a numbered episode, but Chirrut and Baze were technically the first major Asian characters in a Star Wars film. Of course, they were both killed off, but that gets a pass since it was a "Rocks fall, everyone dies" plot.

You're right. And I probably should have included them, since I'm not inclined to slight Rogue One.

Still, there's a certain high profile cachet that comes with being in a main trilogy film, and rose got a more central role than either of them. So I'd say she still counts as a "main character" in a way that they don't.

That said, Tran was at the recent Star Wars celebration, and Abrams is on the record saying he thinks Rose was Johnson's best contribution to Star Wars, so it's a pretty safe bet that she will be showing up again.

That's reassuring to hear.

While we're on the subject though, I think if you want to talk about Star Wars movies taking risks, TLJ is a bad example. While it does have little twists thrown in to try to differentiate itself from ESB, a lot of the movie does hit a lot of familiar points. A large section of the plot is about a massively outgunned rebel ship trying to escape an Imperial fleet in hot pursuit, but having to do it at sublight speeds because they are unable to escape into hyperspace. The reason they can't escape is different (low fuel vs broken hyperdrive), and the Raddus is bigger than the Falcon, but we've still got that.

Meanwhile, the Jedi plotline is about our neophyte Jedi traveling to a remote world to study under a reclusive Jedi Master in hiding. The Master expresses initial reluctance to teach, but then starts giving lessons anyway. The difference here is that Yoda's reluctance was likely at least partially a test to see if Luke was committed, whereas Luke's lesson are specifically trying to discourage Rey from becoming a Jedi. As a bonus, both also have a lesson that involves a dank cave full of Dark Side energy.

Now, a few pages of ROTJ get shuffled into the script with the throne room scene, where the Jedi character lets themselves be captured by the Sith apprentice and brought to the Master, which ends in the apprentice choosing to kill the master in order to save the Jedi character. The twist here, which is one I actually like, is that Kylo Ren consciously rejects redemption after doing it. It's one of the reasons I think his character fared the best in TLJ, and why I share some of the concerns others have expressed of him fixing the mask in the teaser.

-Killing Snoke in the second film, and having a successful apprentice betrayal with Kylo elevated to Big Bad.
-Deliberately deconstructing and reconstructing "Light vs Dark" morality.
-Trying to subvert the usual "Lone Rogue Action Hero vs Corrupt/Incompetent Superiors" plot line with Holdo and Poe.
-Making Rey "No one".

You can argue how well any of those ideas worked in practice, but they were all major points in the film, and none of them were conventional or particularly safe. Especially the first and last one. The similarities, meanwhile, are generally fairly broad ones, in some cases stuff that would apply to pretty much any big budget action film (like the chase plot, the infiltration subplot, and the evil villain vs. heroic protagonist duel).

Anyway, back to the similarities with ESB, we've got a confrontation between the Sith apprentice and the Jedi protagonist, which ends in a big reveal about the family of the protagonist. Here, the twist is that there isn't actually anything to reveal, and all the foreshadowing was just a series of red herrings. Unless Abrams retcons it to it being Kylo trying to gaslight Rey, which I think would be a bad idea, though I do like the interpretation of Kylo having an unrequited attraction towards Rey (hence the "but not to me" line), and that a lot of his rage at the end of TLJ is over Rey rejecting him (he views himself as the big hero for saving Rey, and the hero is supposed to get the girl, so Rey's rejection completely disrupts how he thinks the narrative "should" go).

Kylo having an attraction to Rey, and lashing out at her over it, fits very well with the character, which is basically "angry young neo-fascist white male spree killer in space". Rey returning it... makes me a bit queasy, because we have enough girls and women who think abusive "bad boys" are sexy and that abuse is true love as it is. But I could see it as a tragic flaw stemming from her identity and abandonment issues and desire to fit in.

What I don't want is some stupid "Rey saves Kylo with the power of the love" crap. Or for them to just reverse her turning her back on him at the end of TLJ. Because the latter would be a regression/betrayal of her character development (which is already scant enough as it is) that would weaken her character. And the former... well, what worked for Luke and Vader won't (or at least shouldn't) work for Rey, because the nature of the relationship and characters is different. And again, we already have too many girls who think that deep down, their abusers love them, and that they can "save" abusive men if they keep giving them second chances.

Then, to wrap things up, we have the Imperial walkers attacking the rebel base while the rebels evacuate. Here, the twist is that the planet is salt instead of snow, the attack happens at the end of the movie instead of the beginning, and the evacuation is facilitated by Luke doing some magical hologram trolling instead of a giant fuck-off ion cannon.

See, to me, having some vaguely-familiar set pieces is less important than taking risks with fundamental themes and character development. Its just putting something new in a familiar package.

All said, the most original sequence in the TLJ was Canto Bight, and there are legitimate criticisms in that it doesn't accomplish anything except getting more characters killed, and the sea of identical tuxedos and Earth-based games of chance makes it feel a bit more mundane.

I think that Canto Bight served an important purpose, not so much in furthering the plot, but in furthering Finn's character development, his progression from storm trooper, to scared deserter running for his life, to a man who's only in the fight for Rey, to someone who by the end of the film is genuinely committed to the Resistance's cause, enough to proudly declare himself a Rebel and to try to give his own life for it. By having him see the galaxy from the point of view of an ordinary Resistance grunt (Rose), and see the corruption beneath a pretty place like Canto Bight. And, of course, furthering his relationship with Rose in the process.

My main quibble with it is that when I heard they were going to find an ally on a casino planet, I thought for a brief moment that Lando would be making a surprise appearance, and was disappointed when he didn't. But they're bringing him back now, so its all good.

If you want a better example of a Star Wars movie taking risks, I'd go with Rogue One. It was tonally different from the other films, being more grit and less high adventure. A lot of the ship and vehicle designs were the same or very similar to their OT counterparts, and the main villain was an overly ambitious egotistical bureaucrat, which is less merchandizable. Plus, the aforementioned "Rocks fall, everyone dies" ending.

I mean, Rogue One returned us to the beloved OT era, with loads of fan service and an ending directly tying into A New Hope. It did it beautifully and brilliantly, so I'm not complaining. My point is that it took risks, but in a very familiar setting. I'm not sure how that's so different from TLJ, which took risks within a vaguely familiar plot structure.

[mr friendly guy]

Wow this trilogy is just one big directionless mess isn't it.
Introduce Emperor-like character...pointlessly kill the Emperor-like character...bring back literally the Emperor...Luke Skywalker is our only hope...Jedi must end and Luke won't teach you anything...1000 generations live in you and Luke taught you everything...put on the mask...destroy the mask...weld the mask back together...let the past go...bring Lando back from the mothballs.
Nice backflip though. Lightsaber vs TIE fighter kung fu. That's new I guess.

Obviously they're subverting our expectations. I mean after TLJ we expect the old organisations of force users to end, both the light side and the dark side with Kylo and Rey becoming a new generation. Then episode 9 appears to shit on that premise.

That being said, for someone who has invested time and money watching the first two episodes, I am most probably going to see episode 9.

[ray245]

Wow this trilogy is just one big directionless mess isn't it.
Introduce Emperor-like character...pointlessly kill the Emperor-like character...bring back literally the Emperor...Luke Skywalker is our only hope...Jedi must end and Luke won't teach you anything...1000 generations live in you and Luke taught you everything...put on the mask...destroy the mask...weld the mask back together...let the past go...bring Lando back from the mothballs.
Nice backflip though. Lightsaber vs TIE fighter kung fu. That's new I guess.

Obviously they're subverting our expectations. I mean after TLJ we expect the old organisations of force users to end, both the light side and the dark side with Kylo and Rey becoming a new generation. Then episode 9 appears to shit on that premise.

That being said, for someone who has invested time and money watching the first two episodes, I am most probably going to see episode 9.

But clearly the movies are a collaborative effort with directors sharing a similar vision for the movies. Clearly there is no creative difference between the directors.


Abrams-Johnson-Abrams is a shit combination/order. This would have worked if Johnson went before Abrams in directing Ep 7 rather than 8.

[Shroom Man 777]

Maybe the Rise of Skywalker is that of Kylo's... or with the Jedi gone the new order of Force sensitives will be called Skywalker.

[The Romulan Republic]

Most likely Rey is a Skywalker after all. Second most likely is we find a new Skywalker for the third act, just to make the OT copying complete.

Edit: I mean, Rey kind of has to find apprentices to train, unless she really is going to be the last Jedi.

[ray245]

Maybe the Rise of Skywalker is that of Kylo's... or with the Jedi gone the new order of Force sensitives will be called Skywalker.

Return of the Jedi and Rise of Skywalkers. It rhymes!

I don't like it, it makes the Skywalkers even more important that they need to be. We can't just be a a new Jedi Order. We need to call ourselves Skywalkers for the rest of eternity. What happened to the whole we shouldn't be too caught up in bloodlines/dynasties?

So Rey is basically just an adopted Skywalker at this stage.

[Shroom Man 777]

Maybe the Rise of Skywalker is that of Kylo's... or with the Jedi gone the new order of Force sensitives will be called Skywalker.

Return of the Jedi and Rise of Skywalkers. It rhymes!

I don't like it, it makes the Skywalkers even more important that they need to be. We can't just be a a new Jedi Order. We need to call ourselves Skywalkers for the rest of eternity. What happened to the whole we shouldn't be too caught up in bloodlines/dynasties?

So Rey is basically just an adopted Skywalker at this stage.

It's not exclusive, it shows that people can take up that mantle without the bloodline. For all we know, the term Jedi also denoted some ancient founder figure... perhaps named Jed, so the followers were Jedi.

Or there's Kylo... or he and Rey have a kid?

[ray245]

It's not exclusive, it shows that people can take up that mantle without the bloodline. For all we know, the term Jedi also denoted some ancient founder figure... perhaps named Jed, so the followers were Jedi.

Or there's Kylo... or he and Rey have a kid?

People can be adopted into the bloodline. The point still stands. If someone worth as a Jedi is dependent on how closely connected they are to a special bloodline ( which is the whole point of adoption), then the message is still the same. Rey's worth is based on her being lucky enough to be adopted by Leia?ghost Luke?

This thematically undermine the message of TLJ, in that someone entirely disconnected and never met Luke Skywalker can be the next big hero of the galaxy ( the slave-boy).

[The Romulan Republic]

I think that's going a bit far. Rey isn't worth something because she becomes a Skywalker. She becomes a Skywalker (if she does so) because she's worthy of being one.

Maybe the Rise of Skywalker is that of Kylo's... or with the Jedi gone the new order of Force sensitives will be called Skywalker.

Return of the Jedi and Rise of Skywalkers. It rhymes!

I don't like it, it makes the Skywalkers even more important that they need to be. We can't just be a a new Jedi Order. We need to call ourselves Skywalkers for the rest of eternity. What happened to the whole we shouldn't be too caught up in bloodlines/dynasties?

So Rey is basically just an adopted Skywalker at this stage.

I don't mind her being an adopted Skywalker. Rey's journey is about trying to find an identity in the universe. If she is no one, then her family, the conclusion to her journey, is the family she finds, or creates. Although you can argue it would be stronger for her to forge her own new identity rather than adopt the Skywalker one.

Really, though, she's an adopted Solo. Han was the first one to take her in and offered her a place on the Falcon, and she clearly has some kind of bond with Leia.

[ray245]

I think that's going a bit far. Rey isn't worth something because she becomes a Skywalker. She becomes a Skywalker (if she does so) because she's worthy of being one.

It still plays up the importance of the Skywalker dynasty. If the movie is going to be rehash of Luke's journey in ROTJ, then she can only truly be a Jedi when she takes up the Skywalker name and mantle.

I don't mind her being an adopted Skywalker. Rey's journey is about trying to find an identity in the universe. If she is no one, then her family, the conclusion to her journey, is the family she finds, or creates. Although you can argue it would be stronger for her to forge her own new identity rather than adopt the Skywalker one.

Really, though, she's an adopted Solo. Han was the first one to take her in and offered her a place on the Falcon, and she clearly has some kind of bond with Leia.

It undermines the whole message about letting the past die in TLJ. And essentially Rey is just a Skywalker, because being revealed to be a secret lovechild of Luke and being adopted into the family ultimately has the same thematic ending. Rey is the new Skywalker because she either embrace her secret identity, or she embrace the family name.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think that's going a bit far. Rey isn't worth something because she becomes a Skywalker. She becomes a Skywalker (if she does so) because she's worthy of being one.

It still plays up the importance of the Skywalker dynasty. If the movie is going to be rehash of Luke's journey in ROTJ, then she can only truly be a Jedi when she takes up the Skywalker name and mantle.

It depends how its done. If her being a Skywalker is what qualifies her as a Jedi, sure. But that's unlikely, I think. The point of TLJ is that she was already worthy of being a Jedi because of who she is, and the trailer opens with narration about how she already knows all they can teach her or somesuch.

It undermines the whole message about letting the past die in TLJ. And essentially Rey is just a Skywalker, because being revealed to be a secret lovechild of Luke and being adopted into the family ultimately has the same thematic ending. Rey is the new Skywalker because she either embrace her secret identity, or she embrace the family name.

Okay, I like when they do new things, but this is getting a bit too draconian about it. I didn't take "let the past die" (which was what Kylo said, you know, the villain) to mean "no character can ever associate with or look up to a previous character".

In fact, the end of TLJ showed that Luke would inspire a new generation of rebels and Force users who would be inspired by his example, and follow his lead. TLJ isn't about throwing away everything from the past (other than Kylo's position, perhaps)- its more about not being bound by the institutions of the past while preserving their spirit.

Also, who said anything about "Luke's secret lovechild"? We're talking about her being symbolically or metaphorically a Skywalker. A Skywalker by association.

[Vympel]

Okay, I like when they do new things, but this is getting a bit too draconian about it. I didn't take "let the past die" (which was what Kylo said, you know, the villain) to mean "no character can ever associate with or look up to a previous character".

Like you said, it's the villain talking. "Let the past die" is not the theme of the movie. It's a big sexy trailer line that got a ridiculous amount of attention. Like, the movie literally ends with a reaffirmation of Luke Skywalker's legend and how he won't be the last Jedi. Rey rejects Ben's entreaties to let the past die on the Supremacy.

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comme ... _past_die/

[The Romulan Republic]

As a counterpoint, the fact that Holdo not only didn't tell Poe the plan, but refused to even confirm whether a plan existed at all, does reflect poorly on her leadership. She, for whatever reason, let Poe believe that the entirety of the plan was to maintain an unsustainable course and hope to be saved by space magic, which made him desperate enough to go through with a poorly thought out and even more poorly executed plan of his own in an attempt to save the fleet.

In another note, regarding poor handling of minority representation, I'd add the whole Finn-Rose relationship. I'm not entirely sure whether the complete lack of chemistry was supposed to be intentional, indicating a one-sided unrequited infatuation on Rose's part, or whether Johnson was actually trying to push a relationship between them and just handled it really poorly. Hollywood has a very poor track record regarding specifically black man-white woman relationships, which basically don't exist except in movies that are making specific points about race or racism. I have no problem with Finn and Rey remaining platonic friends (Hollywood tries to force too many romances, anyway), but if the whole Finn-Rose relationship was supposed to be a thing, it carries hints of throwing a minority love interest into the mix in order to keep a romance from developing between the black man and white woman protagonists.

Not going to get into the whole Holdo debate again. We have other threads for that, and I've made my views pretty clear.

As to Rose, though... I've heard it suggested before that Rose was introduced because they didn't want a white woman with a black man, but I've never seen anyone offer any evidence that that was the reason. If that was the case, then that is shameful and despicable. However, I don't want to simply take it at face value and accuse Rian Johnson of racism without more to go on, especially when its just as possible they were trying to do a love triangle deal that will carry over to IX, and I like how the relationship furthers Finn's character development.

Keep in mind that I'm speaking here as someone who hardly ever promotes ships online, but ships Rey/Finn.

What I'm worried about is that Abrams will do something like kill off Rose to push the Rey/Finn ship, or, almost as bad, reinsert the whole "Jedi can't have attachments" stuff with Rey and pair Rose up with Finn instead. Either would bother me.

My favorite solution is a Rey/Finn/Rose threesome with optional Poe foursome, but I don't think Disney is ready for main character polyamory in a Star Wars film.

[The Romulan Republic]

Okay, I like when they do new things, but this is getting a bit too draconian about it. I didn't take "let the past die" (which was what Kylo said, you know, the villain) to mean "no character can ever associate with or look up to a previous character".

Like you said, it's the villain talking. "Let the past die" is not the theme of the movie. It's a big sexy trailer line that got a ridiculous amount of attention. Like, the movie literally ends with a reaffirmation of Luke Skywalker's legend and how he won't be the last Jedi. Rey rejects Ben's entreaties to let the past die on the Supremacy.

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comme ... _past_die/

Pretty much.

The key thing about Luke's death is that he basically reestablishes the legend of the Jedi. He shows that that legend still means something, and it inspires others to have hope and to think about rising up against the First Order and the corrupt oligarchs and criminals who run places like Canto Bite. Think about it: he goes out and confronts a whole army. He shrugs off a turbolaser barrage. He duels and humiliates Kylo Ren in front of his army. And then he just... vanishes. Nobody saw him die. Rey and Leia felt it, but if they don't tell anyone, its possible that no one else will even know that he's dead for a long time. Rumours will spread through the First Order army, about how their big bad leader was humiliated by the Last Jedi. How one Jedi stopped an army cold and then vanished in a flash of light. For all most of the galaxy knows, Luke isn't dead, he just ascended and is now a Force god watching over all.

And to me, that is the perfect ending for Luke. In a way, Luke beat the First Order the same way he beat the Empire- not by force, but by psychology and symbolism. And in doing so, he reestablished the myth of Jedi invincibility. Which is essential, because that myth was a large part of what made the Old Republic work, despite its lack of a powerful standing military to maintain order. We saw in the Prequels that the Jedi weren't numerous enough to win a war on their own. But we saw in Phantom Menace that the Trade Federation was afraid to face them without the Sith egging them on, and how Anakin believed that Jedi couldn't be killed as a child. How much did the OR depend on that myth, and how much of the NR's defeat is due to not having a strong Jedi Order?

In a way, this is also Luke completing his final victory over Palpatine, because what Palpatine did was destroy the Jedi Order, and the peace that it upheld. Palpatine made the Jedi weak, crippled them, destroyed their reputation, and destroyed a thousand years of galactic peace. Luke restored the Legend of the Jedi, and thereby repaired the legacy that Palpatine destroyed. That is Luke's final victory over Palpatine.

It also ties in nicely with my idea that Luke is essentially the anti-Palpatine, Palpatine's Light Side counterpart. Which fits with Snoke's theory that periodically Light Side champions rise up to battle powerful Dark Siders. To my mind, Luke was not the anti-Vader- he was the anti-Palpatine, and Vader's soul was the battleground.

[Shroom Man 777]

The NAME becoming meaningful but as a recognition of people who are non-genetically related is the exact OPPOSITE of bloodline-fixation, it shows how one can pass on a legacy and be remembered for contributions while at the same time sharing it to all other people. So if Rey sees it as "oh noes the Skywalker bloodline still means everything," it can also mean the opposite in that the term and significance of Skywalker is now democratized and accessible to others.

Recognition and sharing aren't mutually exclusive - shit, people practice martial arts that commemorate and are even named after distinguished individuals and founders while the whole thing is passed on and the inheritors and practitioners are still recognized and add their own to the damn thing. [/flex ]

Nations, societies, ideas, memes, nomenclature, these all permeate beyond the bounds of the terminology, the significance expands and goes past reductionists' confines. The world that The Boss envisioned will come to be. This is the liberty we've won for ourselves... a World With No Boundaries, the Demon-Lord of the Round Table pulling the sword from the stone, the infinite symbol of the Ribbon Insignia, all towards Outer Haven.

It's like "Caesar" or "Batman" (if we go with the ideal of Bruce dying and the franchise continuing on with Grayson, McGinnis, etc. instead of typical comic book stagnation) or "The Phantom."

Of course the film most likely won't take this route and just do something else so this particular point of contention is... pointless

[Vympel]

Pretty much.

The key thing about Luke's death is that he basically reestablishes the legend of the Jedi. He shows that that legend still means something, and it inspires others to have hope and to think about rising up against the First Order and the corrupt oligarchs and criminals who run places like Canto Bite. Think about it: he goes out and confronts a whole army. He shrugs off a turbolaser barrage. He duels and humiliates Kylo Ren in front of his army. And then he just... vanishes. Nobody saw him die. Rey and Leia felt it, but if they don't tell anyone, its possible that no one else will even know that he's dead for a long time. Rumours will spread through the First Order army, about how their big bad leader was humiliated by the Last Jedi. How one Jedi stopped an army cold and then vanished in a flash of light. For all most of the galaxy knows, Luke isn't dead, he just ascended and is now a Force god watching over all.

And to me, that is the perfect ending for Luke. In a way, Luke beat the First Order the same way he beat the Empire- not by force, but by psychology and symbolism. And in doing so, he reestablished the myth of Jedi invincibility. Which is essential, because that myth was a large part of what made the Old Republic work, despite its lack of a powerful standing military to maintain order. We saw in the Prequels that the Jedi weren't numerous enough to win a war on their own. But we saw in Phantom Menace that the Trade Federation was afraid to face them without the Sith egging them on, and how Anakin believed that Jedi couldn't be killed as a child. How much did the OR depend on that myth, and how much of the NR's defeat is due to not having a strong Jedi Order?

In a way, this is also Luke completing his final victory over Palpatine, because what Palpatine did was destroy the Jedi Order, and the peace that it upheld. Palpatine made the Jedi weak, crippled them, destroyed their reputation, and destroyed a thousand years of galactic peace. Luke restored the Legend of the Jedi, and thereby repaired the legacy that Palpatine destroyed. That is Luke's final victory over Palpatine.

It also ties in nicely with my idea that Luke is essentially the anti-Palpatine, Palpatine's Light Side counterpart. Which fits with Snoke's theory that periodically Light Side champions rise up to battle powerful Dark Siders. To my mind, Luke was not the anti-Vader- he was the anti-Palpatine, and Vader's soul was the battleground.

Hopefuly Episode IX pays off / acknowledges a lot of this. JJ Abrams isn't as talented a writer or director as Rian Johnson, in my book, but I think he can be pretty good when he wants to be.

[Shroom Man 777]

To finally resolve the whole using "Skywalker" as a word to denote being the new post-Jedi, and Ray's problems with it being "still bloodlines," and how obviously words and language can denote and recognize legacies while passing it on to others and meaning something else as well... I want to imagine that they'll find holocrons containing dialogue that'll run along the lines of:


Kylo:
I was born in a small village
I was still a child when we were raided by soldiers
Foreign soldiers
Torn from my elders, I was made to speak their language
With each new post, my masters changed
Along with the words they made me speak
With each change, I changed too
My thoughts, personality, how I saw right and wrong
Words can kill

Revolver Dameron:
Time and again, the world was ruled by a foreign tongue
When he was a young boy, he lost his native language
The bedrock for any developing child
His planet, his family, his face, his identity
Everything was stolen from him

Maz:
From ancient times, every civilization's ruler has had the same idea. When people unite under one will, they become stronger than the sum of their parts and what do rulers use to bring people together? Language.

General Hux:
This galaxy will become one, I have found the way. Race, tribal affiliations, planetary borders - even our faces will be irrelevant. The galaxy that Plagueis envisioned will finally become a reality and it will make the Force whole again

Kylo:
Coruscant is a planet of liberty, a meeting of immigrants
Instead of simply assimilating, its citizens live alongside others
So Hux sought a system that used information
Words to control the subconscious
In his eyes, the greatest symbiotic parasite the galaxy's ever known isn't midichlorians -- it's linguistic...
Words is what keep civilization, our galaxy, alive

[mr friendly guy]

But clearly the movies are a collaborative effort with directors sharing a similar vision for the movies. Clearly there is no creative difference between the directors.

Abrams-Johnson-Abrams is a shit combination/order. This would have worked if Johnson went before Abrams in directing Ep 7 rather than 8.

Hey, I am not the one coming up with the "subverting expectations" argument to explain that the creators had different visions of what the story should be about. I am just making fun of that excuse.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think the main things I want to see are:

1. No clumsy retconning or undermining of major stuff from TLJ. Well, unless its really well done. Exception permitted for bringing Phasma back. But please, no Snoke coming back.

2. Especially no Rey/Kylo ship.

3. No killing off of Rose, Finn, or Rey.

4. Luke as a Force ghost.

5. Lando being awesome.

6. Leia being awesome.

7. Rey using a new saber. Preferably a green staff saber.

8. A proper fleet battle.

9. The Knights of Ren.

10. More flashbacks showing what happened between the trilogies.

11. Matt Smith being awesome.

12. DJ comes back.

13. Some awesome new John Williams music.

14. Rey dueling Kylo Ren. A proper duel, both are at full strength, with Rey victorious.

15. Rey/Finn.

16. Palpatine does not have a major role, is not back in the flesh or able to physically affect the world, and is not the new Big Bad.

That said, if Palpatine came back for one movie so that Rey could kick his ass, it would be almost worth it for how much it would trigger all the OT fanboys who whine about how she's a "Mary Sue".

Edit: Oh, Kylo meets Anakin's ghost, and Anakin verbally tears him a new one.

[The Romulan Republic]

Interesting article here:

JJ Abrams confirms that the intent all along was for Rey to be "Nobody", which means she's most likely not going to be retconned as having Skywalker blood.

One of the biggest questions coming out of Star Wars: The Force Awakens, aside from the long-lasting effects of patricide, was who Rey’s parents really are. Daisy Ridley’s character was clearly introduced as our new hero of this brand new Star Wars trilogy, but the fact that she’s an orphan with unnamed parents who abandoned her at a young age was no mistake. Obviously there’s a big reveal there. And that reveal is coming in Star Wars: The Last Jedi.

However, coming up with the answer to the Rey’s parentage question was tackled with independence from both J.J. Abrams and Last Jedi writer/director Rian Johnson. In a new profile in Rolling Stone, Abrams says he told Ridley the answer while they were making The Last Jedi, but he didn’t force Johnson to be beholden to his answer:

Unlike almost everyone else in the world, Ridley has known for years who Rey’s parents are, since Abrams told her on the set of The Force Awakens. Ridley believes that nothing ever changed: “I thought what I was told in the beginning is what it is.” Which is odd, because Johnson insists he had free rein to come up with any answer he wanted to the question. “I wasn’t given any directive as to what that had to be,” he says. “I was never given the information that she is this or she is that.”

In the end, Johnson’s answer was the same as Abrams’s, which Rolling Stone rightly points out probably means it’s pretty obvious. Or maybe not. They also state that Abrams “cryptically” hinted that he and Johnson had more coordination than Johnson let on. I think what Johnson was stressing here was that he was not forced to use Abrams’ answer to Rey’s parentage, but the two likely discussed it at some point.

But for those worried that Johnson didn’t have “all the answers” when embarking on The Last Jedi—that’s kind of how storytelling works:

“The truth is, stories are made up! Whether somebody made this whole thing up 10 years ago and put it on a whiteboard and we all have to stick to that, or whether we’re organically finding it as we move forward, it doesn’t mean that any less thought is being put into it.”

Abrams no doubt mapped a broad arc when he made The Force Awakens, but he left plenty up in the air for Johnson to make his own. Now it’s Abrams’ turn to pick up where Johnson left off and conclude this thing with Star Wars: Episode IX.

But first, we’ll find out the answer to Rey’s parentage in Star Wars: The Last Jedi when it hits theaters on December 15th. For more on Star Wars: The Last Jedi peruse the recent links below:

Granted, I suppose its possible that Abrams is lying through his teeth, or did a sudden about-face due to backlash against TLJ. But barring that... no Skywalker.

Edit: deleted the link to the Collider article because it was giving me security warnings.

[FaxModem1]

My one big hope for Episode 9: They free the damn kids on Canto Bight from a life of slavery and servitude, even in an offhand line about a revolution or whatever on the planet. You've set up that the galaxy is a mess even when not being invaded by the First Order, you now have to rectify that with our heroes somehow.

[ray245]

Interesting article here:

JJ Abrams confirms that the intent all along was for Rey to be "Nobody", which means she's most likely not going to be retconned as having Skywalker blood.

One of the biggest questions coming out of Star Wars: The Force Awakens, aside from the long-lasting effects of patricide, was who Rey’s parents really are. Daisy Ridley’s character was clearly introduced as our new hero of this brand new Star Wars trilogy, but the fact that she’s an orphan with unnamed parents who abandoned her at a young age was no mistake. Obviously there’s a big reveal there. And that reveal is coming in Star Wars: The Last Jedi.

However, coming up with the answer to the Rey’s parentage question was tackled with independence from both J.J. Abrams and Last Jedi writer/director Rian Johnson. In a new profile in Rolling Stone, Abrams says he told Ridley the answer while they were making The Last Jedi, but he didn’t force Johnson to be beholden to his answer:

Unlike almost everyone else in the world, Ridley has known for years who Rey’s parents are, since Abrams told her on the set of The Force Awakens. Ridley believes that nothing ever changed: “I thought what I was told in the beginning is what it is.” Which is odd, because Johnson insists he had free rein to come up with any answer he wanted to the question. “I wasn’t given any directive as to what that had to be,” he says. “I was never given the information that she is this or she is that.”

In the end, Johnson’s answer was the same as Abrams’s, which Rolling Stone rightly points out probably means it’s pretty obvious. Or maybe not. They also state that Abrams “cryptically” hinted that he and Johnson had more coordination than Johnson let on. I think what Johnson was stressing here was that he was not forced to use Abrams’ answer to Rey’s parentage, but the two likely discussed it at some point.

But for those worried that Johnson didn’t have “all the answers” when embarking on The Last Jedi—that’s kind of how storytelling works:

“The truth is, stories are made up! Whether somebody made this whole thing up 10 years ago and put it on a whiteboard and we all have to stick to that, or whether we’re organically finding it as we move forward, it doesn’t mean that any less thought is being put into it.”

Abrams no doubt mapped a broad arc when he made The Force Awakens, but he left plenty up in the air for Johnson to make his own. Now it’s Abrams’ turn to pick up where Johnson left off and conclude this thing with Star Wars: Episode IX.

But first, we’ll find out the answer to Rey’s parentage in Star Wars: The Last Jedi when it hits theaters on December 15th. For more on Star Wars: The Last Jedi peruse the recent links below:

Granted, I suppose its possible that Abrams is lying through his teeth, or did a sudden about-face due to backlash against TLJ. But barring that... no Skywalker.

Edit: deleted the link to the Collider article because it was giving me security warnings.

I'll reply to your other post later as I am out. The issue with Abrams is he rarely finish the plot he set up. He has a habit of running off and leaving others try to finish his stories and upset fans when his mystery boxes have no pay-off.

So people may enjoy his way of storytelling, but I see it as being the equvialent of a dead-beat Dad as a writer.