Julian Assange arrested after Ecuador withdraws asylum.

[Ralin]

Wikileaks released some pretty damning evidence that Putin was personally neck deep in the assassination of Alexander Litvinenko, so the very idea that they are somehow in bed with Teh Rooskieeeeez is so mind-numbingly stupid that one can't help but wonder how the nutjobs advancing this conspiracy theory can shit unassisted. It's like accusing Woodward & Bernstein of being agents for the Nixon White House!

How exactly does releasing evidence that Putin is a hardcore badass who has people who cross him painfully assassinated in any way harm Putin? What are they going to do, arrest him?

[Vympel]

How exactly does releasing evidence that Putin is a hardcore badass who has people who cross him painfully assassinated in any way harm Putin? What are they going to do, arrest him?

Saying that it paints him as a 'badass' sounds a lot like there's literally nothing someone could do to somehow prove they're not in hock to Moscow, because you'll have them both ways. Do nothing, 'they never say anything about Russia', do something, 'well the Russians liked it anyway'.

In other news - holy shit, centrist pablum like John Oliver's show is raising the alarm on press freedom.

[The Romulan Republic]

How exactly does releasing evidence that Putin is a hardcore badass who has people who cross him painfully assassinated in any way harm Putin? What are they going to do, arrest him?

Saying that it paints him as a 'badass' sounds a lot like there's literally nothing someone could do to somehow prove they're not in hock to Moscow, because you'll have them both ways. Do nothing, 'they never say anything about Russia', do something, 'well the Russians liked it anyway'.

In other news - holy shit, centrist pablum like John Oliver's show is raising the alarm on press freedom.

I wonder how radical your views must be to consider John Oliver "centrist pablum", considering that his show routinely shines a spotlight on scandals and failures of the American system that almost no mainstream journalist spends much time on.

Oh, right... he's a Westerner, doesn't suck Putin's cock, and is therefore the enemy.

And yes, I agree that there are legitimate reasons for concern over the proposed extradition of Assange. Which, I repeat, I DO NOT SUPPORT. That does not change the fact that he is a possible rapist, that he skipped bail to evade the investigation into said rape allegations, that that is the initial basis for his arrest, that his subsequent extradition will be determined by the British legal system, and that this is entirely legitimate. These are two separate questions which you are trying to conflate in your effort to whitewash Assange personally because he's on your (read: Putin's) side, and pretend its just concern for freedom of the press (you know, the same press you portray as a homogenus dishonest Western propaganda outlet).

[Elfdart]

Except the Swedish government didn't bribe and coerce Lenin Moreno into giving Assange up. That was the US government. If you think for a second that they went to all this trouble over a rape allegation in Sweden, then you must also think Hoover's FBI wiretapped Martin Luther King's bedroom and spread the story that he going to Norway not so much for his Nobel Prize, but to screw white women because he was oh so concerned about King's adultery. You also probably think Howard Hunt and Gordon Liddy broke into the office of Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist because they were concerned about his mental health and not looking for blackmail material.

[Ralin]

Except the Swedish government didn't bribe and coerce Lenin Moreno into giving Assange up. That was the US government. If you think for a second that they went to all this trouble over a rape allegation in Sweden, then you must also think Hoover's FBI wiretapped Martin Luther King's bedroom and spread the story that he going to Norway not so much for his Nobel Prize, but to screw white women because he was oh so concerned about King's adultery. You also probably think Howard Hunt and Gordon Liddy broke into the office of Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist because they were concerned about his mental health and not looking for blackmail material.

Do you agree that Assange should be extradited to Sweden once the prosecutors there get their act together? Yes or no.

[The Romulan Republic]

Except the Swedish government didn't bribe and coerce Lenin Moreno into giving Assange up. That was the US government. If you think for a second that they went to all this trouble over a rape allegation in Sweden, then you must also think Hoover's FBI wiretapped Martin Luther King's bedroom and spread the story that he going to Norway not so much for his Nobel Prize, but to screw white women because he was oh so concerned about King's adultery. You also probably think Howard Hunt and Gordon Liddy broke into the office of Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist because they were concerned about his mental health and not looking for blackmail material.

You're making out that this is all some grand US conspiracy to get Assange. Its on you to back up that claim with evidence.

Now, I'm sure the US was pressuring Ecuador. Heck, I know that it was reported at one point that Mueller was trying (with some justification, given Wikileaks' central role) to get to Assange as part of his probe, though that is now concluded. Whether US pressure is the sole reason Ecuador gave him up (ie the reasons they gave about him violating the terms of his stay are fabricated) I can't say. But the reason given by the UK for his initial arrest (skipping bail in a rape probe) is absolutely valid. Even if Ecuador did let him go for the wrong reasons, its valid. And you and Vymple are desperately trying to evade addressing that point because to do so would either force you to abandon your whitewashing of Assange, or force you to assume the position of rape apologist insisting "but the women must be lying." And you're too cowardly to own up to the fact that you're engaging in ideologically-motivated rape culture.

I do not think he should be extradited to the US, because I do not trust Trump's motives to do so and do not trust the US system as it currently is to give Assange due process or to not abuse this case as a way to further expand Trump's despotic power, and if the British courts decide to extradite him, I will be disappointed. I think Sweden should reopen the rape probe, and Sweden should get him.

And I'll second Ralin's question (and if he and I are agreeing on something, it should give you pause about it just being Western establishment propaganda).

[Elfdart]

How exactly does releasing evidence that Putin is a hardcore badass who has people who cross him painfully assassinated in any way harm Putin? What are they going to do, arrest him?

Saying that it paints him as a 'badass' sounds a lot like there's literally nothing someone could do to somehow prove they're not in hock to Moscow, because you'll have them both ways. Do nothing, 'they never say anything about Russia', do something, 'well the Russians liked it anyway'.

In other news - holy shit, centrist pablum like John Oliver's show is raising the alarm on press freedom.

I stopped watching John Oliver when he slandered Jill Stein as being anti-vaccine. Like Hillary's other fluffers in the media, he was more interested in punching hippies than defeating Trump who, by the way, really is a crank claiming that vaccines cause autism. He's a hack.

As Matt Taibbi pointed out:

One way we recognize a mass hysteria movement is that everyone who doesn’t believe is accused of being in on the plot. This has been going on virtually unrestrained in both political and media circles in recent weeks.

We should do an over/under in terms of word or letter count on how long it will take for the commissar of the Romulan Republic to accuse one or both of us of being on Putin's side (or Russia's) in his very next post. I'll start at 30 words or less.

[The Romulan Republic]

How exactly does releasing evidence that Putin is a hardcore badass who has people who cross him painfully assassinated in any way harm Putin? What are they going to do, arrest him?

Saying that it paints him as a 'badass' sounds a lot like there's literally nothing someone could do to somehow prove they're not in hock to Moscow, because you'll have them both ways. Do nothing, 'they never say anything about Russia', do something, 'well the Russians liked it anyway'.

In other news - holy shit, centrist pablum like John Oliver's show is raising the alarm on press freedom.

I stopped watching John Oliver when he slandered Jill Stein as being anti-vaccine. Like Hillary's other fluffers in the media, he was more interested in punching hippies than defeating Trump who, by the way, really is a crank claiming that vaccines cause autism. He's a hack.

As Matt Taibbi pointed out:

One way we recognize a mass hysteria movement is that everyone who doesn’t believe is accused of being in on the plot. This has been going on virtually unrestrained in both political and media circles in recent weeks.

We should do an over/under in terms of word or letter count on how long it will take for the commissar of the Romulan Republic to accuse one or both of us of being on Putin's side (or Russia's) in his very next post. I'll start at 30 words or less.

So instead of addressing a single one of my or Ralin's arguments, you will respond by mocking me with a cheap ad hominem* (with some ad hominem against John Oliver as well), attempting to derail the topic from arguing your points to "TRR sucks". As usual. Not a mod here, but isn't that a violation of board rules reg. honest debating?

It certainly fits the definition of "post-truth politics" on Wikipedia:

Post-truth politics (also called post-factual politics[1] and post-reality politics)[2] is a political culture in which debate is framed largely by appeals to emotion disconnected from the details of policy, and by the repeated assertion of talking points to which factual rebuttals are ignored.

Answer Ralin's question and defend your arguments or concede, you fucking rape-apologist coward.



*I suppose you think that because I criticize Putin I'm "Red-baiting", so calling me "commissar" is some clever "Both Sides"/Whataboutism, instead of a historically-illiterate non-sequitor.

[aerius]

Do you agree that Assange should be extradited to Sweden once the prosecutors there get their act together? Yes or no.

I am not a lawyer and international law ain't something I pretend to specialize in.

However, if the Swedes can come up with an extradition request that is kosher by both their own laws and international laws, then sure.
If they have to bend a bunch of rules to come up with the papers, the answer is no.

[The Romulan Republic]

Do you agree that Assange should be extradited to Sweden once the prosecutors there get their act together? Yes or no.

I am not a lawyer and international law ain't something I pretend to specialize in.

However, if the Swedes can come up with an extradition request that is kosher by both their own laws and international laws, then sure.
If they have to bend a bunch of rules to come up with the papers, the answer is no.

Sure, I can agree to that.

Assange should get due process, same as anyone else accused of a crime. If he can be lawfully extradited, he should be. If he's found guilty of rape, he should serve whatever sentence the Swedish courts see fit for that. If not, he should serve his time for skipping bail in the UK, and then leave prison a free man.

[Crazedwraith]

Outside of being a mod, there is no evidence whatsoever that Julian Assange "worked with Russian intelligence", either knowingly or unknowingly. The evidence free assertions of US national security state apparatchiks are worth no more than the assertions of any other state security service - i.e. very little.

Wikileaks released some pretty damning evidence that Putin was personally neck deep in the assassination of Alexander Litvinenko, so the very idea that they are somehow in bed with Teh Rooskieeeeez is so mind-numbingly stupid that one can't help but wonder how the nutjobs advancing this conspiracy theory can shit unassisted. It's like accusing Woodward & Bernstein of being agents for the Nixon White House!

Devil's Advocate here, I don't know enough about Assange to have an opinion either way but I wouldn't take that as compelling evidence he's not working with/for russia. Everyone already "knew" that anyway and the info hasn't brought Putin down has it.

Providing accurate but useless information against your employer is a useful way to look like you are not working for them.

That said there is no real evidence that I know of that he is working for the Russians he could direct more of his attention towards the US just because he dislikes America, there's enough reason to.

[Elfdart]

Except the Swedish government didn't bribe and coerce Lenin Moreno into giving Assange up. That was the US government. If you think for a second that they went to all this trouble over a rape allegation in Sweden, then you must also think Hoover's FBI wiretapped Martin Luther King's bedroom and spread the story that he going to Norway not so much for his Nobel Prize, but to screw white women because he was oh so concerned about King's adultery. You also probably think Howard Hunt and Gordon Liddy broke into the office of Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist because they were concerned about his mental health and not looking for blackmail material.

Do you agree that Assange should be extradited to Sweden once the prosecutors there get their act together? Yes or no.

No. Sweden has a proven track record of handing people over to the US to be tortured at black sites or by client states. That's the reason Assange sought sanctuary in the first place.

[The Romulan Republic]

Except the Swedish government didn't bribe and coerce Lenin Moreno into giving Assange up. That was the US government. If you think for a second that they went to all this trouble over a rape allegation in Sweden, then you must also think Hoover's FBI wiretapped Martin Luther King's bedroom and spread the story that he going to Norway not so much for his Nobel Prize, but to screw white women because he was oh so concerned about King's adultery. You also probably think Howard Hunt and Gordon Liddy broke into the office of Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist because they were concerned about his mental health and not looking for blackmail material.

Do you agree that Assange should be extradited to Sweden once the prosecutors there get their act together? Yes or no.

No. Sweden has a proven track record of handing people over to the US to be tortured at black sites or by client states. That's the reason Assange sought sanctuary in the first place.

I have a feeling that would be harder to do with someone as high-profile as Assange. Everyone will notice, and there would be a huge outcry, if Assange just "disappeared". I would also be interested to know how many of the same people are in power in Sweden now as then, and whether any relevant changes to Swedish government and policy have occurred in the intervening period that would make the mistreatment of Assange less likely.

I also love that you are taking Assange's "reason" at face value, not even considering the possibility that the accusations might actually have merit, and implicitly (because you're too much of a dishonest coward to say it outright) adopting the "The women must be lying" defense.

[aerius]

I have a feeling that would be harder to do with someone as high-profile as Assange. Everyone will notice, and there would be a huge outcry, if Assange just "disappeared". I would also be interested to know how many of the same people are in power in Sweden now as then, and whether any relevant changes to Swedish government and policy have occurred in the intervening period that would make the mistreatment of Assange less likely.

Got a question for you. If Sweden hands over Assange to the US and he gets disappeared, what the fuck is the rest of the world going to do about it?

[The Romulan Republic]

I have a feeling that would be harder to do with someone as high-profile as Assange. Everyone will notice, and there would be a huge outcry, if Assange just "disappeared". I would also be interested to know how many of the same people are in power in Sweden now as then, and whether any relevant changes to Swedish government and policy have occurred in the intervening period that would make the mistreatment of Assange less likely.

Got a question for you. If Sweden hands over Assange to the US and he gets disappeared, what the fuck is the rest of the world going to do about it?

Probably not much, but the bad press and internal political backlash might make them think twice. I honestly don't know that much about the current political climate in Sweden to say exactly how big an issue that would be.

The point is, its not easy to just "disappear" someone who's that high profile.

[Coop D'etat]

I have a feeling that would be harder to do with someone as high-profile as Assange. Everyone will notice, and there would be a huge outcry, if Assange just "disappeared". I would also be interested to know how many of the same people are in power in Sweden now as then, and whether any relevant changes to Swedish government and policy have occurred in the intervening period that would make the mistreatment of Assange less likely.

Got a question for you. If Sweden hands over Assange to the US and he gets disappeared, what the fuck is the rest of the world going to do about it?

The probable consequence is future extradition requests get treated with a lot less deference. Extraditing states have a lot of discretion in international criminal law and the Americans generally enjoy the benefits of abiding by their agreements. Running roughshod over it for one particular case poisons the well for future cases and generally the Washington foriegn policy blob cares about that kind of thing.

This isn't something superpower hegmonic geopolitics let's you just ignore, too much rides on the cooperation of foriegn governments and legal systems.

Concerns a more Trumpified DoJ might act on a more YOLO basis may have merit though.

[Elfdart]

Aside from the weird "American" accent at the end, this is right on.

[The Romulan Republic]

Elfdart still won't answer whether he believes that Assange should be extradited to Sweden for a rape investigation.

Guess he doesn't want to admit that he thinks men should get a pass on rape charges if they're "anti-establishment" enough.

[Ralin]

Elfdart still won't answer whether he believes that Assange should be extradited to Sweden for a rape investigation.

Guess he doesn't want to admit that he thinks men should get a pass on rape charges if they're "anti-establishment" enough.

Dude he answered that half a dozen posts ago.

Elfdart opposes Assange facing trial for the rapes he has committed.

[The Romulan Republic]

Huh, guess I missed that.

Guess I don't have to feel bad about calling him a rape apologist, either.

[Vympel]

I wonder how radical your views must be to consider John Oliver "centrist pablum", considering that his show routinely shines a spotlight on scandals and failures of the American system that almost no mainstream journalist spends much time on.

Oh, right... he's a Westerner, doesn't suck Putin's cock, and is therefore the enemy.

Ah yes, TRR screaming "PUTIN!" . Didn't see that one coming. Real plot twist there. Very new.

John Oliver's a court jester for centrism. Nowhere in his 'shining a spotlight' does he ever notice that the issues afflicting the American systems are systemic and there by design. The core assumptions that underpin this rotten edifice are nver questioned.

And yes, I agree that there are legitimate reasons for concern over the proposed extradition of Assange. Which, I repeat, I DO NOT SUPPORT. That does not change the fact that he is a possible rapist, that he skipped bail to evade the investigation into said rape allegations, that that is the initial basis for his arrest, that his subsequent extradition will be determined by the British legal system, and that this is entirely legitimate. These are two separate questions which you are trying to conflate in your effort to whitewash Assange personally because he's on your (read: Putin's) side, and pretend its just concern for freedom of the press (you know, the same press you portray as a homogenus dishonest Western propaganda outlet).

(blah blah blah you love Putin blah blah blah)

Much of the press is a homogeneous propaganda outlet for the forces of capital. That doesn't mean I'm going to say nothing as the government tries to criminalize investigative journalism.

We should do an over/under in terms of word or letter count on how long it will take for the commissar of the Romulan Republic to accuse one or both of us of being on Putin's side (or Russia's) in his very next post. I'll start at 30 words or less.

Does it count if he did it beforehand, like usual?

[The Romulan Republic]

Again, no rebuttal to most of my arguments, just ad hominem.

What's the phrase for this sort of situation? Oh yes: concession accepted.

[Vympel]

Again, no rebuttal to most of my arguments, just ad hominem.

What's the phrase for this sort of situation? Oh yes: concession accepted.

That's rich given how much of your post is dedicated to smearing your opponent as a 'Putinist'.

No self-awareness at all. Like ... zero.

Also, what argument did I not address? I don't see a single one. Was it the totally off-topic pablum about his arrest which you keep trying to launder in service of your tired McCarthyite PUTIN smears? That's not an argument, that's an ad hominem.

[The Romulan Republic]

Again, no rebuttal to most of my arguments, just ad hominem.

What's the phrase for this sort of situation? Oh yes: concession accepted.

That's rich given how much of your post is dedicated to smearing your opponent as a 'Putinist'.

No self-awareness at all. Like ... zero.

The difference is that I made actual arguments instead of just relying on smearing the other guy. Arguments that you have not refuted despite being called on it- that you have in fact basically refused to address with a lie so clumsy it makes me feel almost embarassed for you (more on that shortly). You have not refuted the fact that the initial grounds for Assange's arrest were legitimate regardless of any bullshit Trump tries to pull, I presume because doing so would force you to admit that you believe people who are on your political team should be allowed to rape women with impunity and be above due process. Instead, you have repeatedly tried to sell the laughable idea that the reasons for Assange's arrest are irrelevant. But then, I suppose to you it is irrelevant. He could rape a baby on live television and you'd probably say that he's being persecuted by the evil US attacking free speech.

You have also ignored my repeated statements (in response to your ad hominem smears) that I do not support Assange's extradition to the US.

And I mean, you do basically parrot Lord Vladimort's line on a lot of stuff. You might at least have the guts to own it. But then, constantly contradicting your own bullshit is also a classic Putinist tactic, so...

Also, what argument did I not address? I don't see a single one. Was it the totally off-topic pablum about his arrest which you keep trying to launder in service of your tired McCarthyite PUTIN smears? That's not an argument, that's an ad hominem.

Wow, did you actually just call his arrest, and the reasons for it, "off-topic" in a thread about his arrest? Why, I believe you did.

There's dishonesty, and then there's just being a fucking imbecile. Guess what? Calling the topic off-topic does not absolve you of the need to back up your arguments.

Also, is "pablum" your new buzz word to label everything you don't like or something?

Annnnnd you're backing to call me a McCarthyite.

Here's a hint, dip shit- McCarthy targeted his victims out of personal ambition. I'm not. McCarthy fear mongered about Communists. I'm not (hell, I'm closer to being a communist than the people I'm attacking). And most importantly... McCarthy's accusations were bullshit. Mine aren't.

[The Romulan Republic]

Throughout this thread, you have relied heavily on smearing me personally, trying to trash my reputation with cheap ad hominems, rather than defend your arguments or refute mine. Regardless of anything else, our political differences or the merits or lack thereof of our arguments, that makes you cowardly scum.