Is Holdo a good leader?

[Gandalf]

Linky This guy for one, I know I have heard it before but for the life of me can't remember where. Anyhow I think it quite neatly summarizes a core concept in an easy to understand form about warfare. It's not really relative to the opposition either, it's just "can you keep fighting?". Like why insurgencies are so hard to put down permanently. To keep up an insurgency you only need the will to fight and modest resources. The formula is also about what part of the enemy is the target of your attacks. In simplest of terms, if the enemy's means are too great to target, you should try and damage the will instead. This is quite apparent in conflicts like Vietnam or Soviet occupation of Afganistan.
But this is kinda getting off topic really.

Exactly my point. The Resistance would have been better off had Poe called off his attack, because they would continue to have a bombing wing, and better morale for not having lost their bombers. That's one of the key ways that people beat the US in Vietnam and Iraq; through knowing when to fight and when to run. It's also consistent with the film's theme of people and impersonation of their roles, as Poe is trying to be super Rebel pilot guy, but lacks a greater understanding of its meaning.

[Jub]

Exactly my point. The Resistance would have been better off had Poe called off his attack, because they would continue to have a bombing wing, and better morale for not having lost their bombers. That's one of the key ways that people beat the US in Vietnam and Iraq; through knowing when to fight and when to run. It's also consistent with the film's theme of people and impersonation of their roles, as Poe is trying to be super Rebel pilot guy, but lacks a greater understanding of its meaning.

Except on screen we never see the Resistance do much fighting.

They had Han play a major role in destroying Starkiller Base by jumping through its shields, a feat no other character would attempt much less pull off. That wasn't a resistance win it was a win for the couple viewpoint characters that just happened to be aligned with Resistance goals. Contrast that to the Battle of Yavin, the Rebellion would have gone forward with the same plan regardless of Luke being there and, while their chances would have been worse, a non-force user could have still made the shot. Would the Resistance have even tried to take out Starkiller Base if they didn't have Finn's insider knowledge and Han's piloting skills and personal connection to his son drawing him there? What agency did the Resistance as a whole have?

Poe's attack was costly but at least we finally saw a long time Resistance member, somebody who didn't just join recently because they didn't have anywhere better to be, do something. For all, we know that's the biggest win the Resistance has had without all of Han, Rey, and Finn being heavily involved. There's just no setup or sense that the Resistance has been winning battles in the ST whereas in the OT we know the Rebellion has been such a thorn in the Empire's side that they bring out their literal biggest gun to blow up one of their known bases.

I'd have a different view of what Poe accomplished if the movies had properly sold me on the Resistance being able to make effective use of that bomber wing, but as detailed above I have zero reasons to think that the Resistance leadership will ever have the balls to push their chips in.

[RogueIce]

Doesn't that assume that said autocannons have some sort of extra special range otherwise not demonstrated in the film?

It's canon thanks to the Thrawn novel that, it seems, turbolasers suffer a bad dropoff over range. Can't remember if it was specifically atmosphere or not. But it would fit with why the Resistance was "out of range" during the chase despite the FO shots still hitting their shields - their energy was depleted enough that they weren't doing any real damage.

Compare it to the big cannons (YouTube link) that fire from a good distance away from the planet yet creates surface explosions visible from orbit and I'd say it's a good bet that those fuckoff huge guns do have better effective range than the average turbolaser. I'm pretty sure some sourcebook and/or the novelization even says that's what they were created for.

[Rogue 9]

Doesn't that assume that said autocannons have some sort of extra special range otherwise not demonstrated in the film?

... No. The First Order fleet jumped out of hyperspace right on top of the Resistance flotilla when they first emerged from hyperspace after fleeing D'Qar and immediately destroyed one of the escort vessels. The Resistance ships quickly opened the distance, but were within easy weapons range for several minutes. We know that the Fulminatrix is capable of accurate orbit to surface fire, and expected to be able to hit the Raddus from a distance much further than the apparent initial range in the Crait system before it was destroyed.

[Civil War Man]

Exactly my point. The Resistance would have been better off had Poe called off his attack, because they would continue to have a bombing wing, and better morale for not having lost their bombers. That's one of the key ways that people beat the US in Vietnam and Iraq; through knowing when to fight and when to run. It's also consistent with the film's theme of people and impersonation of their roles, as Poe is trying to be super Rebel pilot guy, but lacks a greater understanding of its meaning.

If the Resistance had made a clean getaway, I would definitely agree with you. However, I can not see a single point in the chase that happened where a bombing wing would have done any good. As I mentioned earlier, between Poe disabling the dreadnought's guns and the gormlessness of the FO commanders, they had multiple advantages during the bombing run on the dreadnought and still got completely wiped out. If they tried a bombing run on the FO fleet chasing them, they probably would have gotten cut to ribbons before they got halfway to their target. They might have been able to provide some defense against the initial fighter attack, unless they dock with the Raddus like Poe did before the fleet jumps. If they do, they'd probably just get blown up with the rest of the fighters. And if they jumped with the fleet without docking, that brings into question how that would affect the fleet's fuel supply during the chase, since you now have multiple additional small ships burning additional fuel. Being small craft, they probably don't burn much fuel, but when the entire fleet is running on fumes, not much can still be too much.

Plus, the whole plan was apparently to ditch the materiel, hide in the Crait base, and call for reinforcements, anyway, so the actual bombers themselves would have been completely expendable, and the only loss of any value from Poe's attack were the pilots and crews.

[Gandalf]

If the Resistance had made a clean getaway, I would definitely agree with you. However, I can not see a single point in the chase that happened where a bombing wing would have done any good. As I mentioned earlier, between Poe disabling the dreadnought's guns and the gormlessness of the FO commanders, they had multiple advantages during the bombing run on the dreadnought and still got completely wiped out. If they tried a bombing run on the FO fleet chasing them, they probably would have gotten cut to ribbons before they got halfway to their target. They might have been able to provide some defense against the initial fighter attack, unless they dock with the Raddus like Poe did before the fleet jumps. If they do, they'd probably just get blown up with the rest of the fighters. And if they jumped with the fleet without docking, that brings into question how that would affect the fleet's fuel supply during the chase, since you now have multiple additional small ships burning additional fuel. Being small craft, they probably don't burn much fuel, but when the entire fleet is running on fumes, not much can still be too much.

Plus, the whole plan was apparently to ditch the materiel, hide in the Crait base, and call for reinforcements, anyway, so the actual bombers themselves would have been completely expendable, and the only loss of any value from Poe's attack were the pilots and crews.

Was the Crait evacuation thing their plan all along, or did it become the plan after the First Order jumped on top of them and put them in a drawn out death scenario?

[Civil War Man]

I would say that hiding on Crait at the very least was part of the plan, on account of them going to that system in the first place and being essentially out of fuel after that one jump.

As for ditching the ships, Leia was also shown to be in on the plan, and she was incapacitated soon after the First Order jumped right on top of them. So either a) ditching the equipment was the plan from the start, b) she hashed out the updated "abandon ship" plan with Holdo and the other commanders over comms between the FO ships arriving and the Raddus's bridge being blown out (since otherwise Holdo couldn't have known about the plan, since Leia was the only one who survived the bridge's destruction), or c) abandoning ship was entirely Holdo's idea, but Leia knows the details because she woke up way earlier than we were shown and Holdo filled her in.

Also, several of the ships didn't even have enough fuel to even make it to the base to begin with, so either the chase caused them to burn fuel at a much faster rate than they planned, they planned on having the remaining ships basically coast most of the way to Crait, or ditching the ships was part of the plan from the start.

[Gunhead]

Was the Crait evacuation thing their plan all along, or did it become the plan after the First Order jumped on top of them and put them in a drawn out death scenario?

If the plan was to hyper jump the fuck away, which it probably was then taking out the dreadnought is still a good trade. Bloody their nose then run the fuck away. If the plan was to go hide on a planet, you're already committed to scuttling your big ships in order to hide your escape thus sparing a few utter garbage buckets is not going to matter in the long run. While you might save the crews, it's worth pointing out you're not going to put your ace crews into ships that are only good for a suicide run anyway. That is suicide against anyone who has any modicum of competence. FO having the tactical prowess of a retarded gerbil is what made the bomber run feasible in the first place but if your enemy insists giving you chance to smack them you should take it. Even if you're fighting FO you might, even if by accident, run into someone who can employ his forces competently.

As to your previous posts, yea knowing when to run away is part of the game but if enemy forces you to give combat, you commit but just enough so more important assets have a chance to get away. This will pretty much guarantee the insurgent force will suffer more casualties in relative but most likely also in absolute terms. This however should be apparent to anyone in a commanding role in an insurgent force, or any type of combat force. If you're in command, you give orders, invariably those orders will cause some of your people to die. All you can do is your best to ensure at least some of those deaths accomplish something.

-Gunhead

[RogueIce]

Exactly my point. The Resistance would have been better off had Poe called off his attack, because they would continue to have a bombing wing, and better morale for not having lost their bombers. That's one of the key ways that people beat the US in Vietnam and Iraq; through knowing when to fight and when to run. It's also consistent with the film's theme of people and impersonation of their roles, as Poe is trying to be super Rebel pilot guy, but lacks a greater understanding of its meaning.

If the Resistance had made a clean getaway, I would definitely agree with you. However, I can not see a single point in the chase that happened where a bombing wing would have done any good. As I mentioned earlier, between Poe disabling the dreadnought's guns and the gormlessness of the FO commanders, they had multiple advantages during the bombing run on the dreadnought and still got completely wiped out. If they tried a bombing run on the FO fleet chasing them, they probably would have gotten cut to ribbons before they got halfway to their target. They might have been able to provide some defense against the initial fighter attack, unless they dock with the Raddus like Poe did before the fleet jumps. If they do, they'd probably just get blown up with the rest of the fighters. And if they jumped with the fleet without docking, that brings into question how that would affect the fleet's fuel supply during the chase, since you now have multiple additional small ships burning additional fuel. Being small craft, they probably don't burn much fuel, but when the entire fleet is running on fumes, not much can still be too much.

Plus, the whole plan was apparently to ditch the materiel, hide in the Crait base, and call for reinforcements, anyway, so the actual bombers themselves would have been completely expendable, and the only loss of any value from Poe's attack were the pilots and crews.

The most use those bombers would have had - and they look too big to fit in the Mon Cal cruiser's hanger, so I'm guessing they'd be flying independently here - is to give Kylo Ren more targets to shoot at. Maybe the provide enough of a distraction that he doesn't make that run on the bridge. But since I'm pretty sure that was a personal goal for him...probably not.

And given the whole "Captains go down with their ship" thing that was apparently necessary because reasons, those bomber pilots would have been dead anyway. The gunner (or whatever Rose's sister was) and any other crew aboard might survive - I haven't watched in a long time, not sure if they had any other crewmembers - but that's about it.

So really, in the grand scheme of things, the bombers not taking down the Dreadnought and surviving would have just delayed the inevitable and maybe saved a few lives. Worth it just for whoever did survive, but it's not like the Resistance lost some important strategic assets.

[The Romulan Republic]

I would say that hiding on Crait at the very least was part of the plan, on account of them going to that system in the first place and being essentially out of fuel after that one jump.

As for ditching the ships, Leia was also shown to be in on the plan, and she was incapacitated soon after the First Order jumped right on top of them. So either a) ditching the equipment was the plan from the start, b) she hashed out the updated "abandon ship" plan with Holdo and the other commanders over comms between the FO ships arriving and the Raddus's bridge being blown out (since otherwise Holdo couldn't have known about the plan, since Leia was the only one who survived the bridge's destruction), or c) abandoning ship was entirely Holdo's idea, but Leia knows the details because she woke up way earlier than we were shown and Holdo filled her in.

Would it have been necessary (or advisable) to ditch the ships if the FO hadn't tracked them there? I always kind of figured the original plan was to to fly to the planet but not necessarily scuttle the ships, and that that part was improvisation by Holdo after the FO tracked them there, forcing them to basically fake their deaths to make the escape to Crait viable (although if they were completely out of fuel, the ships might have been a liability that could have drawn attention to the hidden base without being able to contribute to its defense).

Also, several of the ships didn't even have enough fuel to even make it to the base to begin with, so either the chase caused them to burn fuel at a much faster rate than they planned, they planned on having the remaining ships basically coast most of the way to Crait, or ditching the ships was part of the plan from the start.

Good point, although I expect that the answer to "did they burn more fuel than planned" is "yes", given that combat conditions would force them to keep their shields up at all times, and they would have had to burn extra fuel to accelerate away from the FO fleet at the start of the engagement.

[FaxModem1]

Do shields use up fuel? Or is it like turbolasers, and requires tibanna gas or some other resource?

[The Romulan Republic]

Do shields use up fuel? Or is it like turbolasers, and requires tibanna gas or some other resource?

Not sure if they use the same fuel as the engines or draw power from the main reactors, but it must be a massive power drain to hold off an 18-hour dreadnought bombardment, even at range.

[Civil War Man]

Would it have been necessary (or advisable) to ditch the ships if the FO hadn't tracked them there? I always kind of figured the original plan was to to fly to the planet but not necessarily scuttle the ships, and that that part was improvisation by Holdo after the FO tracked them there, forcing them to basically fake their deaths to make the escape to Crait viable (although if they were completely out of fuel, the ships might have been a liability that could have drawn attention to the hidden base without being able to contribute to its defense).

The whole point was that Leia knew about the plan, so either scuttling the ships was made part of the plan before she was incapacitated, or she woke up earlier and Holdo filled her in, and at least to me it felt implied during the reveal that Holdo was following Leia's plan.

As for why it might have been necessary to scuttle the ships even if they had made a clean getaway, you have 3 capital ships with no fuel, and the plan is to set up shop in an old base, call for reinforcements, and lay low for a while. If you aren't planning on scuttling the ships, you're either going to need an underground berthing in the base to hide the ships, enough fuel stored at the base to refuel them and send them elsewhere, or you're going to have to park them in orbit until they are refueled, which increases the possibility of attracting unwanted attention. Without fuel, having those ships becomes a liability once they make it to the base.

[Shroom Man 777]

With any single person in the struggle potentially becoming some kind of Big Damn Hero out of chancy Poe-like shenanigans or Finn-like underdog BS, and Rose's sister's heroics, and Rose herself's techno-doodling, I think a setup like the Resistance could use each and every life spared - the ideological and thematic opposite of the Imperials and FO with masked troops. And even in-universe cosmo-theological stuffs, how actualized individuals can achieve big damn heroic verse-changing feats through the will of the Force that's honed by values, virtues, and non-rigid non-totalitarian life... sure this is feudal superstition and egoism that runs contrary to the basics of Gerrerism but does not Saw Gerrera encourage each individual to uphold ideological correctness in order to together, as a whole, make and save the dream?

[Silver Jedi]

Holdo was easily the best leader the Resistance had. She inherited a shit situation, made worse by incompetence on both sides and all around bad writing, but still managed to come up with a better outcome than any of the others would've. I don't think the fact that Poe almost single handedly gigafucked the whole thing can really be laid at her feet.

First, the situation she inherited: They were already on the Crait system, running from the FO towards the planet. If the plan was not already to head for the abandoned base there, then the existence of that base was such a massive coincidence in the rebels favor that you'd have to attribute it to the will of the force or something. At any rate, they were already on the run, headed towards a planet that had a secret hidden base on it. They knew that they couldn't just scatter into hyperspace, because the FO had a hyperspace tracking scanner thing*, and they were already low on fuel. They were basically committed to the base on Crait before the bridge was blown up.

So, that's the external situation. The internal situation is the "fleet" is 3 capital ships, some shuttles and no fighters or bombers. Moral is not great, but holding steady. The demoted former commander of the since destroyed fighter group is an insolent little shit, but he's near the bottom of her list of concerns. Leia demoted him out of the senior staff, and his normal area of responsibility (fighters) is a non factor in the current situation, so he really shouldn't require any of her attention. Could she have spent more time patting him on the cheek and reassuring him that everything was gonna be ok? Maybe, but he was hardly entitled to that kind of hand holding, and his corrosive attitude was not actually representative of the rest of the resistance.

I honestly don't think that moral in the fleet was as bad some of y'all are making it out to be. It seems like the whole problem was confined to the fighter pilots and a few of their friends, but just seems like a much bigger issues because we're seeing it all from Poe's PoV. Notice, when Poe finally learns the plan and throws his tantrum on the bridge, the rest of the staff seem to already know that "running away" is the plan. The shuttles were actively being loaded and fueled, and progress was being monitored from the bridge.

Poe and his buddies were not in on things because they didn't have an active part in preparing, so they had no need to know all the details. Holdo (correctly) realized that Poe was constitutionally incapable of accepting a "run and hide" plan, so she didn't tell him about it. You can argue that this level of compartmentalization was unnecessary, but I think that argument is undermined by the fact that the first thing that Poe does when he learn the plan is leak it to the [career criminal who took the first opportunity to trade it to the] FO. Other than not throwing Poe in the brig after his meltdown, I can't even say that her handling of the rouge fighter pilot element was that bad. If Poe hadn't let the cat out of the bag to DJ, then his whole mutiny arc doesn't even matter. Holdo let them play at mutiny while the adults in the room went about their duty; notice that no one stopped loading shuttles in the background at any point during the mutiny. It wasn't until the mutineers actually slowed down the shuttle prep (when Poe kills power to the hangars) that Holdo swiftly and decisively puts down the mutiny. No one is hurt but Poe, and the whole thing has zero material effect on The Plan.

I'll also point out that Leia's little chat with Poe on the shuttle was only a means of saving face for him. When he threw his tantrum on the bridge, it was because they were running instead of fighting. Rewatch the scene and listen to his rant on the bridge and later call with Rose and Finn. He wasn't concerned about where they were running to, he couldn't accept running at all.

So sure, Holdo inherited a plan that required the stealth on the shuttles to work as intended, and the FO to continue to be as incompetent as they had been up to that point, but she executed that plan as well as could possible be hoped. She got the entire remaining resistance onto the stealth shuttles, had them headed to a secret base where they could hide and call for help, and the FO was none the wiser. The only downside was that she was going down with the Raddius, but the "Captain going down with the ship to cover the crew's retreat" is not normally the mark of a bad leader. Her only mistake was underestimating the depths of Poe's treason, but even that was a matter of degrees. I don't think a reasonable commander could anticipate that one of her officers would send a pair of maintenance workers on an unsupported unsanctioned secret mission, then feed them the vital details of your secret plan.

*I didn't read the novelization, but going by the movie the Supremacy was never in the D'Quar system. It somehow managed to track the rebel fleet despite not being present in either the origin or destination system of their jump. Betting the entire resistance on the hope that the enemies new game-changer technology is limited in a specific way (can't track all the ships) that would be super convenient for you is not a winning military strategy.

[The Romulan Republic]

There are a few points I could quibble on, but overall, that is correct.

I do think you are understating the severity of the morale problem, given the desertions, but I think that it mostly predated Holdo taking command. The main point against Holdo morale-wise that immediately comes to mind is that while most of the crew did not join Poe, most of them didn't actively back her up, either. That said, I can't fault the hanger crew for basically saying "fuck it, we're just going to keep doing our jobs so we have the option of evacuation, and let the brass sort out who's in charge" at that point.

[FaxModem1]

Holdo was easily the best leader the Resistance had. She inherited a shit situation, made worse by incompetence on both sides and all around bad writing, but still managed to come up with a better outcome than any of the others would've. I don't think the fact that Poe almost single handedly gigafucked the whole thing can really be laid at her feet.

First, the situation she inherited: They were already on the Crait system, running from the FO towards the planet. If the plan was not already to head for the abandoned base there, then the existence of that base was such a massive coincidence in the rebels favor that you'd have to attribute it to the will of the force or something. At any rate, they were already on the run, headed towards a planet that had a secret hidden base on it. They knew that they couldn't just scatter into hyperspace, because the FO had a hyperspace tracking scanner thing*, and they were already low on fuel. They were basically committed to the base on Crait before the bridge was blown up.

*I didn't read the novelization, but going by the movie the Supremacy was never in the D'Quar system. It somehow managed to track the rebel fleet despite not being present in either the origin or destination system of their jump. Betting the entire resistance on the hope that the enemies new game-changer technology is limited in a specific way (can't track all the ships) that would be super convenient for you is not a winning military strategy.

You forget the same major factor that Holdo did. A cursory check for cloaked ships revealed the stealthed transports. That the First Order was so stupid that it took a traitor like DJ to make them do so says a lot about the First Order, but also about the plan itself. Splitting the ships so that they can resupply(or get reinforcements) and later rendezvous is a better strategy than, "I hope our enemy is so stupid that they don't scan for us after they blow up our empty ships and discover either an ion trail or our stealthed ships. And we're utterly stranded and hope SOMEONE picks us up before the First Order backtrack and find us stuck on this planet."

That in itself is NOT a winning strategy, and has been pointed out multiple times.

So, that's the external situation. The internal situation is the "fleet" is 3 capital ships, some shuttles and no fighters or bombers. Morale is not great, but holding steady. The demoted former commander of the since destroyed fighter group is an insolent little shit, but he's near the bottom of her list of concerns. Leia demoted him out of the senior staff, and his normal area of responsibility (fighters) is a non factor in the current situation, so he really shouldn't require any of her attention. Could she have spent more time patting him on the cheek and reassuring him that everything was gonna be ok? Maybe, but he was hardly entitled to that kind of hand holding, and his corrosive attitude was not actually representative of the rest of the resistance.

I honestly don't think that moral in the fleet was as bad some of y'all are making it out to be. It seems like the whole problem was confined to the fighter pilots and a few of their friends, but just seems like a much bigger issues because we're seeing it all from Poe's PoV. Notice, when Poe finally learns the plan and throws his tantrum on the bridge, the rest of the staff seem to already know that "running away" is the plan. The shuttles were actively being loaded and fueled, and progress was being monitored from the bridge.

Problem is, all of the senior staff are dead or in a coma. Poe, by virtue of all their senior staff biting it due to Leia's kid, is now in the senior staff and should be briefed, as he could be in charge next unless relieved in the case Holdo bites it, and as we saw with Ackbar, senior staff officers are dropping like flies.

We also see Holdo's leadership from the bridge crew's point of view, as one of the bridge crew is in on the mutiny. See Lieutenant Connix, bridge officer, and her reaction to Holdo's "Stay the Course" plan by mutinying on the bridge. You'd think Lieutenant Connix might tell Poe what's going on and how Holdo is leading them to safety before she mutinies. Or Holdo is so bad at keeping morale going that Connix is mutinying anyway. That's up for debate. Thank Rian Johnson for having her there for the scene for the later subversion. It's bad writing if the reveal was Poe was overreacting the entire time if Connix is having a similar reaction to Holdo's leadership.

Poe and his buddies were not in on things because they didn't have an active part in preparing, so they had no need to know all the details. Holdo (correctly) realized that Poe was constitutionally incapable of accepting a "run and hide" plan, so she didn't tell him about it. You can argue that this level of compartmentalization was unnecessary, but I think that argument is undermined by the fact that the first thing that Poe does when he learn the plan is leak it to the [career criminal who took the first opportunity to trade it to the] FO. Other than not throwing Poe in the brig after his meltdown, I can't even say that her handling of the rouge fighter pilot element was that bad. If Poe hadn't let the cat out of the bag to DJ, then his whole mutiny arc doesn't even matter. Holdo let them play at mutiny while the adults in the room went about their duty; notice that no one stopped loading shuttles in the background at any point during the mutiny. It wasn't until the mutineers actually slowed down the shuttle prep (when Poe kills power to the hangars) that Holdo swiftly and decisively puts down the mutiny. No one is hurt but Poe, and the whole thing has zero material effect on The Plan.

Holdo also acted like 'an insolent little shit' when asked for a briefing about what to do. As I've posted before. A simple, non-detailed plan would have worked besides, "Have hope as we lose ships and people to enemy fire and slowly die."

A simple, "Prepare the transports for evacuation, my plan hinges on it and I need you to make sure they're ready" would have worked. If it didn't, "Make up a lie about getting ships ready to grab allies from across the galaxy or some other more practical plan. Or better yet, send him on a shuttle to grab briefcase size fuel to fill up the Raddus.

If morale is bad, assign him to fixing it as the war hero of Starkiller base, and explain that she needs him. Inflate his ego, even if it's a bald faced lie, and get him to do something productive, even if it's giving speeches or moving boxes onto the transports. Insolent little shits who are busy are less trouble than insolent little shits who aren't. Especially since he quoted her words right back to her, about having hope when two of their ships, and at least one captain, maybe two, were pointlessly killed.

I'll also point out that Leia's little chat with Poe on the shuttle was only a means of saving face for him. When he threw his tantrum on the bridge, it was because they were running instead of fighting. Rewatch the scene and listen to his rant on the bridge and later call with Rose and Finn. He wasn't concerned about where they were running to, he couldn't accept running at all.

So, by your own admission, Leia's little chat got Poe to be A-okay with the plan? Then he really just needed a Commanding officer to talk to him and make sure he did Commsec properly. Or to stun him again, whichever.

So sure, Holdo inherited a plan that required the stealth on the shuttles to work as intended, and the FO to continue to be as incompetent as they had been up to that point, but she executed that plan as well as could possible be hoped. She got the entire remaining resistance onto the stealth shuttles, had them headed to a secret base where they could hide and call for help, and the FO was none the wiser. The only downside was that she was going down with the Raddius, but the "Captain going down with the ship to cover the crew's retreat" is not normally the mark of a bad leader. Her only mistake was underestimating the depths of Poe's treason, but even that was a matter of degrees. I don't think a reasonable commander could anticipate that one of her officers would send a pair of maintenance workers on an unsupported unsanctioned secret mission, then feed them the vital details of your secret plan.

A reasonable commander should have noticed the classic signs of Panic in a subordinate, as well as rumors spreading across their ship, and put a stop to it fast. Dismissing morale is something any reasonable commander would NOT do, regardless of Poe's mental state or competence. So yes, that falls on Holdo as a leader.

[Silver Jedi]

You forget the same major factor that Holdo did. A cursory check for cloaked ships revealed the stealthed transports. That the First Order was so stupid that it took a traitor like DJ to make them do so says a lot about the First Order, but also about the plan itself.

It's not just a "cursory check", though. The transports are running a proprietary stealth system the rebels developed in house. We don't know all the details of how the scanners interact with the stealth systems, but the implication was pretty clear in the movie that the FO wouldn't have found the transports without running a specific "decloaking" scan for them, and they only knew to scan for them because DJ sold them out. Every other character who heard this plan like Leia and Poe (who would be very familiar with how stealthy those shuttles really were because the resistance had been using them for a while) didn't see a problem with relying on the shuttle's stealth.

Splitting the ships so that they can resupply(or get reinforcements) and later rendezvous is a better strategy than, "I hope our enemy is so stupid that they don't scan for us after they blow up our empty ships and discover either an ion trail or our stealthed ships. And we're utterly stranded and hope SOMEONE picks us up before the First Order backtrack and find us stuck on this planet."

If they jump again the FO will just follow them again. If the writing weren't so bad there would've been a whole discussion about the possibility of a mole and/or tracking device, but as it stands they know that if they jump again they'll just get ambushed again 30 seconds later:

LEIA: Wait. They tracked us through lightspeed.
FINN: That's impossible.
LEIA: Yes. And they've done it.
FINN: So if we jump to lightspeed... they'll just find us again, and we'll be out of fuel. They've got us.
POE: Not yet, they don't. Permission to jump in an X-wing and blow something up...

And what reinforcements? They didn't have any where else to go, they were hoping that someone would answer their call from Crait, but until they were able to convince someone to help them they didn't have anywhere safe to go (just deep space or an abandoned/empty system) or any reinforcements. Even without the FO tracking them through hyperspace, they were going to be just as stranded in the next system the jumped to anyway. At least the base on Crait had a way to broadcast the call to their allies, which the fleet apparently did not. Idk how that broadcast compares with Poe's holo-chat with Maz, but the fact that they needed to get to Crait to broadcast the call for allies was stated plainly by characters who should reasonably know.

Also, IIRC, the stealth systems on the shuttles were specifically designed to mask the ships' ion trails

Problem is, all of the senior staff are dead or in a coma. Poe, by virtue of all their senior staff biting it due to Leia's kid, is now in the senior staff and should be briefed, as he could be in charge next unless relieved in the case Holdo bites it, and as we saw with Ackbar, senior staff officers are dropping like flies.

Judging by the actors on screen, Holdo was relying on a mix of existing Raddus personnel and her own senior staff. Poe had just been demoted, so in terms of rank there were probably several other officers in line ahead of him.

Also, since it came up earlier in the thread: It appears Commander Larma D'acy (the woman who introduced Holdo) was acting as XO, which makes sense. She was a member of Leia's staff aboard the Radddus before Holdo took over, but was part of Holdo's staff held at gunpoint during the mutiny. For those complaining about Holdo not using the chain of command, I'd point out that Larma was trying to manage Poe (and keep him off the bridge) before he forced his way past her to throw his tantrum. FWIW, she also outranked Poe after his demotion.

We also see Holdo's leadership from the bridge crew's point of view, as one of the bridge crew is in on the mutiny. See Lieutenant Connix, bridge officer, and her reaction to Holdo's "Stay the Course" plan by mutinying on the bridge. You'd think Lieutenant Connix might tell Poe what's going on and how Holdo is leading them to safety before she mutinies. Or Holdo is so bad at keeping morale going that Connix is mutinying anyway. That's up for debate. Thank Rian Johnson for having her there for the scene for the later subversion. It's bad writing if the reveal was Poe was overreacting the entire time if Connix is having a similar reaction to Holdo's leadership.

I agree that it's just bad writing. Trying to justify, the best I can come up with is that Connix is just an impressionable idiot or something. The bridge staff clearly knew what the plan was the whole time, because they were actively monitoring the shuttle prep. So if Connix knew what was going on, and was sympathetic to Poe's treason, why didn't she tell him they were prepping the shuttles? I honestly don't have a good answer for that.

Holdo also acted like 'an insolent little shit' when asked for a briefing about what to do. As I've posted before. A simple, non-detailed plan would have worked besides, "Have hope as we lose ships and people to enemy fire and slowly die."

A simple, "Prepare the transports for evacuation, my plan hinges on it and I need you to make sure they're ready" would have worked.

We know that that wouldn't work for Poe, because he threw a tantrum on the bridge (and scared the shit out of the poor Lt. monitoring that station) as soon as he saw that she was fueling the shuttles. OTOH, it apparently worked perfectly well on the rest of the resistance, because that's what they were doing. The bridge crew (other than Connix) were on board with Holdo's plan, and were executing it. Ditto for the rest of the ship's crew, since they were the ones physically loading the Shuttles in the background, before during and after the mutiny.

The only ones Holdo didn't trust with the plan to evacuate the Raddus were Poe and his buddies. As it turns out, her fears were 1000% justified, because upon learning the plan Poe Immediately leaked it to the enemy and began planning a mutiny. If she had just thrown Poe in the brig after his meltdown on the bridge, her plan would've worked without a hitch.

If morale is bad, assign him to fixing it as the war hero of Starkiller base, and explain that she needs him. Inflate his ego, even if it's a bald faced lie, and get him to do something productive, even if it's giving speeches or moving boxes onto the transports. Insolent little shits who are busy are less trouble than insolent little shits who aren't. Especially since he quoted her words right back to her, about having hope when two of their ships, and at least one captain, maybe two, were pointlessly killed.

If you want a real crackpot theory, maybe the mutiny was the bullshit project. There was actually only a very small number of mutineers, and none of them were in vital positions at the time
- almost all of them were pilots whose fighters were lost in the hangar. As I mentioned before, Holdo just kind of let the mutiny happen until it actively interfered with the evacuation, at which point she immediately put it down. Maybe she was just letting them play mutineer to pass the time while the adults in the room saved their lives? Granted, she didn't anticipate that they would find a way to leak the actual plan to the enemy, but it took a pretty outrageous and specific set of circumstances for that to happen.

That's kind of the crux of this whole debate, I think. If Her only mistake was "didn't give a grown man and professional soldier enough busy work while everyone around him was working to save his life" I don't think that makes her a bad leader.

So, by your own admission, Leia's little chat got Poe to be A-okay with the plan?

No, not all. The fact that by that point the shuttles had been launched and the plan had already been executed is what made Poe ok with it. Leia's little chat just gave him a way to save face, by giving him a post-hoc excuse for his actions, even if it doesn't actually address his earlier concerns at all.

A reasonable commander should have noticed the classic signs of Panic in a subordinate, as well as rumors spreading across their ship, and put a stop to it fast. Dismissing morale is something any reasonable commander would NOT do, regardless of Poe's mental state or competence. So yes, that falls on Holdo as a leader.

Again, I don't see anything about rumors spreading across the ship. Most of the resistance members we see just kinda keep calm and carry on. It's only Poe and his immediate circle that have morale problems. And again, Poe proved that he couldn't be trusted with the truth anyway.

[FaxModem1]

You forget the same major factor that Holdo did. A cursory check for cloaked ships revealed the stealthed transports. That the First Order was so stupid that it took a traitor like DJ to make them do so says a lot about the First Order, but also about the plan itself.

It's not just a "cursory check", though. The transports are running a proprietary stealth system the rebels developed in house. We don't know all the details of how the scanners interact with the stealth systems, but the implication was pretty clear in the movie that the FO wouldn't have found the transports without running a specific "decloaking" scan for them, and they only knew to scan for them because DJ sold them out. Every other character who heard this plan like Leia and Poe (who would be very familiar with how stealthy those shuttles really were because the resistance had been using them for a while) didn't see a problem with relying on the shuttle's stealth.

DJ didn't give the First Order any technical details though. For all we know, he just said, "Check for cloaked ships.", and that was it. Doesn't sound like something really involved, and that any partially competent First Order officer could ask for if they were curious about the lack of dead bodies on board the three ships when they were destroyed.

Splitting the ships so that they can resupply(or get reinforcements) and later rendezvous is a better strategy than, "I hope our enemy is so stupid that they don't scan for us after they blow up our empty ships and discover either an ion trail or our stealthed ships. And we're utterly stranded and hope SOMEONE picks us up before the First Order backtrack and find us stuck on this planet."

If they jump again the FO will just follow them again. If the writing weren't so bad there would've been a whole discussion about the possibility of a mole and/or tracking device, but as it stands they know that if they jump again they'll just get ambushed again 30 seconds later:

LEIA: Wait. They tracked us through lightspeed.
FINN: That's impossible.
LEIA: Yes. And they've done it.
FINN: So if we jump to lightspeed... they'll just find us again, and we'll be out of fuel. They've got us.
POE: Not yet, they don't. Permission to jump in an X-wing and blow something up...

So, figure out which ship is being tracked by splitting up, and have that ship on it's own while the other two buy some frigging gas. This has been discussed ad nauseum. They buy some gas and just funnel it over to the Raddus.

And what reinforcements? They didn't have any where else to go, they were hoping that someone would answer their call from Crait, but until they were able to convince someone to help them they didn't have anywhere safe to go (just deep space or an abandoned/empty system) or any reinforcements. Even without the FO tracking them through hyperspace, they were going to be just as stranded in the next system the jumped to anyway. At least the base on Crait had a way to broadcast the call to their allies, which the fleet apparently did not. Idk how that broadcast compares with Poe's holo-chat with Maz, but the fact that they needed to get to Crait to broadcast the call for allies was stated plainly by characters who should reasonably know.

Or, the Resistance is run by idiots if Poe can make a phone call but Admiral 'stay the course until we're all dead' Holdo isn't trying to until she's at Crait. Either one is just as valid. And supposedly, there are New Republic ships out there that they're trying to rally with. If they can get them on their side, great. If not, they could potentially hire mercenaries. If not, again, they could buy some gas. They could also do what Finn and Rose did, and go there personally to get the allies by hand-delivering the message instead of waiting on a broadcast from Crait. Which again, makes Holdo an idiot.

Problem is, all of the senior staff are dead or in a coma. Poe, by virtue of all their senior staff biting it due to Leia's kid, is now in the senior staff and should be briefed, as he could be in charge next unless relieved in the case Holdo bites it, and as we saw with Ackbar, senior staff officers are dropping like flies.

Judging by the actors on screen, Holdo was relying on a mix of existing Raddus personnel and her own senior staff. Poe had just been demoted, so in terms of rank there were probably several other officers in line ahead of him.

Also, since it came up earlier in the thread: It appears Commander Larma D'acy (the woman who introduced Holdo) was acting as XO, which makes sense. She was a member of Leia's staff aboard the Radddus before Holdo took over, but was part of Holdo's staff held at gunpoint during the mutiny. For those complaining about Holdo not using the chain of command, I'd point out that Larma was trying to manage Poe (and keep him off the bridge) before he forced his way past her to throw his tantrum. FWIW, she also outranked Poe after his demotion.

If D'acy really is the link between Holdo and Poe, then it falls to her to comfort Poe. That's her job. Either she should have done so immediately, and done so for bridge officers like Connix as well, or she also fucking sucked at her job.

We also see Holdo's leadership from the bridge crew's point of view, as one of the bridge crew is in on the mutiny. See Lieutenant Connix, bridge officer, and her reaction to Holdo's "Stay the Course" plan by mutinying on the bridge. You'd think Lieutenant Connix might tell Poe what's going on and how Holdo is leading them to safety before she mutinies. Or Holdo is so bad at keeping morale going that Connix is mutinying anyway. That's up for debate. Thank Rian Johnson for having her there for the scene for the later subversion. It's bad writing if the reveal was Poe was overreacting the entire time if Connix is having a similar reaction to Holdo's leadership.

I agree that it's just bad writing. Trying to justify, the best I can come up with is that Connix is just an impressionable idiot or something. The bridge staff clearly knew what the plan was the whole time, because they were actively monitoring the shuttle prep. So if Connix knew what was going on, and was sympathetic to Poe's treason, why didn't she tell him they were prepping the shuttles? I honestly don't have a good answer for that.

Or she realized Holdo's plan was idiotic and going to get them all killed? Or more likely, since Holdo is intelligence, she kept Commsec going to the point of no return and inspired multiple desertions and mutiny.

Holdo also acted like 'an insolent little shit' when asked for a briefing about what to do. As I've posted before. A simple, non-detailed plan would have worked besides, "Have hope as we lose ships and people to enemy fire and slowly die."

A simple, "Prepare the transports for evacuation, my plan hinges on it and I need you to make sure they're ready" would have worked.

We know that that wouldn't work for Poe, because he threw a tantrum on the bridge (and scared the shit out of the poor Lt. monitoring that station) as soon as he saw that she was fueling the shuttles. OTOH, it apparently worked perfectly well on the rest of the resistance, because that's what they were doing. The bridge crew (other than Connix) were on board with Holdo's plan, and were executing it. Ditto for the rest of the ship's crew, since they were the ones physically loading the Shuttles in the background, before during and after the mutiny.

No, it didn't, because we had people like Finn running for escape pods. Not everyone of them is supposedly under Poe's sway, so Holdo's plan clearly wasn't keeping them calm, or they didn't know about it and were panicking.

The only ones Holdo didn't trust with the plan to evacuate the Raddus were Poe and his buddies. As it turns out, her fears were 1000% justified, because upon learning the plan Poe Immediately leaked it to the enemy and began planning a mutiny. If she had just thrown Poe in the brig after his meltdown on the bridge, her plan would've worked without a hitch.

Or the rest of the bridge crew didn't know, and things were so compartmentalized that bridge officers thought it was safer to mutiny than to keep on following orders that didn't make any sense, and regular crew members were jumping into escape pods due to the effects of Holdo's speech.

If morale is bad, assign him to fixing it as the war hero of Starkiller base, and explain that she needs him. Inflate his ego, even if it's a bald faced lie, and get him to do something productive, even if it's giving speeches or moving boxes onto the transports. Insolent little shits who are busy are less trouble than insolent little shits who aren't. Especially since he quoted her words right back to her, about having hope when two of their ships, and at least one captain, maybe two, were pointlessly killed.

If you want a real crackpot theory, maybe the mutiny was the bullshit project. There was actually only a very small number of mutineers, and none of them were in vital positions at the time
- almost all of them were pilots whose fighters were lost in the hangar. As I mentioned before, Holdo just kind of let the mutiny happen until it actively interfered with the evacuation, at which point she immediately put it down. Maybe she was just letting them play mutineer to pass the time while the adults in the room saved their lives? Granted, she didn't anticipate that they would find a way to leak the actual plan to the enemy, but it took a pretty outrageous and specific set of circumstances for that to happen.

Problem with that is the deserters. If you have a desertion problem right after Holdo gets into an argument with a subordinate straight off the gate, than yes, that's on Holdo's shoulders, and it isn't limited to Poe's flight squadron.

That's kind of the crux of this whole debate, I think. If Her only mistake was "didn't give a grown man and professional soldier enough busy work while everyone around him was working to save his life" I don't think that makes her a bad leader.

And wasn't doing anything about the desertions. Again, I have to stress that. Poe wasn't the only one panicking if the ship has a desertion problem. Remember that.

So, by your own admission, Leia's little chat got Poe to be A-okay with the plan?

No, not all. The fact that by that point the shuttles had been launched and the plan had already been executed is what made Poe ok with it. Leia's little chat just gave him a way to save face, by giving him a post-hoc excuse for his actions, even if it doesn't actually address his earlier concerns at all.

Prove it. Prove that it wasn't the fact that the plan wasn't actually explained to him, as a leader should have done hours ago, when he was still in a good frame of mind and wasn't starting to panic from watching people die. Because that's what we see on screen, a man panicking because he thinks his leaders are getting them killed needlessly.

A reasonable commander should have noticed the classic signs of Panic in a subordinate, as well as rumors spreading across their ship, and put a stop to it fast. Dismissing morale is something any reasonable commander would NOT do, regardless of Poe's mental state or competence. So yes, that falls on Holdo as a leader.

Again, I don't see anything about rumors spreading across the ship. Most of the resistance members we see just kinda keep calm and carry on. It's only Poe and his immediate circle that have morale problems. And again, Poe proved that he couldn't be trusted with the truth anyway.

Again, people are deserting. That's a classic sign of panic. That may be what Holdo and company thought Rose and Finn were doing with the shuttle they took, and just shrugged their shoulders that morale was so bad. THAT IS BAD LEADERSHIP. People stealing shuttles should be a major red flag, not "Oh well, not my problem." by those in charge of the crew.

[Silver Jedi]

DJ didn't give the First Order any technical details though. For all we know, he just said, "Check for cloaked ships.", and that was it. Doesn't sound like something really involved, and that any partially competent First Order officer could ask for if they were curious about the lack of dead bodies on board the three ships when they were destroyed.

It was a specific "decloaking" scan according to the FO officer. I don't know what that involved, but we do know that the FO didn't do it until they were specifically told to by DJ. IDK, cloaking is rare in star wars, and it may be that a decloaking scan takes up a lot of time or specialized resources or something. Whatever the reason, it is clearly not something that the FO does as SOP, and Leia and Holdo exploited his fact. We can monday-morning-quarterback their decision back and forth, and blame the FO for being incompetent morons, but the rebels' plan would have worked if Poe hadn't gotten the details leaked.

I mean literally, the characters outright say that Holdo knew the FO wasn't scanning for small ships:

LEIA: Holdo knew the First Order was tracking our big ship. They're not monitoring for little transports.
POE: So we could slip down to the surface unnoticed and hide till the First Order passes. That could work.

Sure, if the FO were competent (or rather, if Johnson was a competent writer) they would've been scanning the wreckage for bodies or other signs that something funky was going on, and running decloaking scans around the capital ships to look for escaping rebels. But then, if they were competent they would've had a couple of SDs micro jump ahead of the rebel fleet, or used their fighters and bombers to run them down. Actually, if they were really competent it wouldn't have ever reached the Crait system because they would've launched a fighter screen for their dreadnought, had it's escorts actually escort it (did you know that the regular star destroyers never fire a single shot?), and completely wiped out the rebel fleet before they could jump away from D'Qar.

Or, the Resistance is run by idiots if Poe can make a phone call but Admiral 'stay the course until we're all dead' Holdo isn't trying to until she's at Crait. Either one is just as valid.

Look, I think the writing is moronic too, but it's not the characters' fault that Rain Johnson is aggressively ignorant of how technology works in Star Wars. For whatever technical reasons, they don't have the "power" to make their call, but the base on Crait does. Leia and D'acy said this before they even knew they were being tracked through hyperspace:

FINN: Alright, Well, until [Rey] comes back [with Luke], what's the plan?
LEIA: We need to find a new base.
LARMA D'ACY: One with enough power to get a distress signal to our allies. scattered in the Outer Rim.

and then again when she has hew window side chat with Poe on the shuttle:

LEIA: Poe...
POE: What is that?
LARMA D'ACY: The mineral planet, Crait. An uncharted hideout from the days of the Rebellion.
POE: That's a Rebel base?
LARMA D'ACY: Abandoned, but heavily armored with enough power to get a distress signal to our allies scattered in the Outer Rim.

Like I said, I don't know what the difference was between the holo-call Poe made and the big plot device distress call, but clearly there was a difference. Poe knew they needed to make their distress call when he called Maz, so the best in-universe explanation I can come up with is that there's some technical difference between the two that the characters are aware of but the audience is not.


In both of these cases (decloak scanning and not having enough power to call for help) the real answer is that the technology has whatever limitations the plot demands, and Johnson didn't care enough to make these details make sense. I hate him and hate the movie because of it. For our purposes here though, what's important is that All the other characters agree with those technical details. If Holdo was being an idiot for waiting until Crait to make the call and for relying on the FO not scanning for the shuttles, Leia and Poe (and D'acy and the rest of the Resistance staff) are just as big of idiot for agreeing that it was a good plan. Which still leaves Holdo as someone who inherited an imperfect plan and executed it pretty much perfectly.

And supposedly, there are New Republic ships out there that they're trying to rally with. If they can get them on their side, great. If not, they could potentially hire mercenaries. If not, again, they could buy some gas.

They never mention NR ships, just a vague reference to "allies scattered in the outer rim" which sounds a lot more like private fleets, smugglers, pirates and maybe mercs with sympathetic leaders -- old school rebel types. But that all requires talking with them, which the movie established that they couldn't do until they reached a base with a enough power.

They could also do what Finn and Rose did, and go there personally to get the allies by hand-delivering the message instead of waiting on a broadcast from Crait.

In what ships? The whole point of the entire chase was that they didn't have enough fuel to run to hyperspace and they'd just be followed if they did. The hyper capable fighters were all gone. Beyond the shuttle that Rose and Finn stole they might not have even had anything that could jump independently. That plan also relies on the messengers rallying the allies, amassing enough firepower to bail out the rebels (so a fleet several times the size of the entire resistance), then getting back to the still-running rebel fleet before they run out of fuel and the Supremacy blows them up. At least with Holdo's plan they're safe from the immediate threat that's bearing down on them, and have some breathing room in case their supposed allies don't immediately respond to their call (which - spoiler alert - they don't).

If D'acy really is the link between Holdo and Poe, then it falls to her to comfort Poe. That's her job. Either she should have done so immediately, and done so for bridge officers like Connix as well, or she also fucking sucked at her job.

There may have technically been more links in the chain of command between them, it's not really clear and the TOE was in shambles at that point. Maybe Poe's designated hand holder didn't even realize it was their job to worry about that, because they wee in the middle of a crisis. And yeah, it sucks for Poe that he felt helpless and no one would give him any responsibility so he could feel like a big strong man again, but that's what happens when you're demoted for disobeying orders - you stop being relied on to carry out vital tasks.

Or she realized Holdo's plan was idiotic and going to get them all killed? Or more likely, since Holdo is intelligence, she kept Commsec going to the point of no return and inspired multiple desertions and mutiny....
No, it didn't, because we had people like Finn running for escape pods. Not everyone of them is supposedly under Poe's sway, so Holdo's plan clearly wasn't keeping them calm, or they didn't know about it and were panicking.

The only mutineers were the pilots who were (understandably) personally loyal to Poe, and Connix, who was willing to mutiny from the word go. Remember, she covered for Rose and Finn stealing the shuttle almost immediately after Holdo took command. She was never going to follow Holdo over Poe. The only desertion attempts we know of (other than Finn) happened before Holdo took command.

Or the rest of the bridge crew didn't know, and things were so compartmentalized that bridge officers thought it was safer to mutiny than to keep on following orders that didn't make any sense

Poe (and presumably anyone else) could see that the shuttles were being fueled and loaded the moment he stepped onto the bridge, because no one made any attempt to hide it. Bridge crew were actively monitoring/coordinating shuttle prep. There were no gasps or looks of shock when he announced that they were planning on abandoning the ship. Poe didn't seem to realize it, but he was the only person on the bridge who was in the dark.

regular crew members were jumping into escape pods due to the effects of Holdo's speech.

Problem with that is the deserters. If you have a desertion problem right after Holdo gets into an argument with a subordinate straight off the gate, than yes, that's on Holdo's shoulders, and it isn't limited to Poe's flight squadron.

And wasn't doing anything about the desertions. Again, I have to stress that. Poe wasn't the only one panicking if the ship has a desertion problem. Remember that.

The only desertion attempts we know of (other than Finn) happened before Holdo took command. And Finn is not a regular crew member, he's a turncoat who's has no real ties to the Resistance.

As they're wheeling the unconscious Leia away (after her "mary poppins" flight) she drops the beacon bracelet that Rey would be coming back to, and Finn picks it up. He then immediately tries to desert. He's not present to see Holdo's introduction, or Poe's fight with her; he's off packing a bag and sneaking to the escape pods. He never get's a chance to be demoralized by Holdo. When he gets to the escape pods, Rose is already there, and tells him "Just this morning, I had to stun three people who were trying to jump ship in this escape pod." And that's the only actual desertion attempts we know of. So, at the very least we can say that desertions were already a concern before Holdo took command, and we have no reason to believe that they were any better or worse under than under Leia.

Prove it. Prove that it wasn't the fact that the plan wasn't actually explained to him, as a leader should have done hours ago, when he was still in a good frame of mind and wasn't starting to panic from watching people die. Because that's what we see on screen, a man panicking because he thinks his leaders are getting them killed needlessly.

I can't prove a negative. I can't prove that he wouldn't have thrown a tantrum and leaked the Plan and started a mutiny if he had been told earlier, that's your job. I can prove that he did throw a tantrum and leak the plan and stage a mutiny as soon as he found out that the plan was to abandon ship. I can prove that he never expressed concern about where they would run to, and that's the only new detail Leia revealed to him after the mutiny was over.

He distrusted Holdo's leadership based on her appearance before he had said one word to her, and was immediately condescending, impatient and insubordinate in his first interaction. He was never "in a good frame of mind". All Holdo knows is that Leia's last act was to demote him for insubordination and disobeying an order to retreat, and as soon as she's announced he lies about the demotion and wants to be told the plan. What reason at all does she have to believe that if she tell's him the plan is to retreat he won't decide to disobey those orders too? Because that is exactly what he ends up doing. If you honestly believe that he would have reacted differently form the way he actually did, you prove it.


Really, the whole "he panicked and can't be held responsible for his actions" line of reasoning is total bullshit if you pay any attention to his character at all during the movie. He disobeys a direct order in the opening sequence. It's not like he sat and stewed for hours agonizing over the situation before he decided to work against Holdo. He was so "panicked" after a single, 30 second conversation with her that he immediately started mutinying. The first time we see him after that first conversation with Holdo is when he decides to withhold vital intelligence form anyone else (not because he's concerned with leaks but because he doesn't trust the decisions Holdo will make with that info), and instead convinces two enlisted personnel to go AWOL and steal a shuttle, and a junior officer to lie and cover their tracks. Poe didn't even understand what their plan was, but he trusted it more than he trusted Holdo, despite her impressive record.

Again, people are deserting. That's a classic sign of panic. That may be what Holdo and company thought Rose and Finn were doing with the shuttle they took, and just shrugged their shoulders that morale was so bad.

Fuck off, now you're just making shit up because you either know you have no point, or don't know the movie well enough to back up your argument. The only desertion once Holdo took command was Finn+Rose, at Poe's behest. Connix lies through her teeth to Holdo to cover their escape.

[Rogue 9]

Again, people are deserting. That's a classic sign of panic. That may be what Holdo and company thought Rose and Finn were doing with the shuttle they took, and just shrugged their shoulders that morale was so bad.

Fuck off, now you're just making shit up because you either know you have no point, or don't know the movie well enough to back up your argument. The only desertion once Holdo took command was Finn+Rose, at Poe's behest. Connix lies through her teeth to Holdo to cover their escape.

Ummm... Rose clearly tells Finn that she's at the escape pods because she is preventing desertions, and has already stopped several. What, you think the would-be deserters suddenly stopped the minute she was no longer guarding the pods?

[The Romulan Republic]

Again, people are deserting. That's a classic sign of panic. That may be what Holdo and company thought Rose and Finn were doing with the shuttle they took, and just shrugged their shoulders that morale was so bad.

Fuck off, now you're just making shit up because you either know you have no point, or don't know the movie well enough to back up your argument. The only desertion once Holdo took command was Finn+Rose, at Poe's behest. Connix lies through her teeth to Holdo to cover their escape.

Ummm... Rose clearly tells Finn that she's at the escape pods because she is preventing desertions, and has already stopped several. What, you think the would-be deserters suddenly stopped the minute she was no longer guarding the pods?

I think the point is that given that scene happened almost immediately after Holdo took command, those desertions likely predated her assuming command, and thus cannot be blamed on her.

We have no idea if further desertions occurred after she took command (besides Finn/Rose), but if so, then it was simply a continuation of a preexisting problem, and the worst you can say about Holdo is that she didn't succeed in actually stopping it.

[Silver Jedi]

Again, people are deserting. That's a classic sign of panic. That may be what Holdo and company thought Rose and Finn were doing with the shuttle they took, and just shrugged their shoulders that morale was so bad.

Fuck off, now you're just making shit up because you either know you have no point, or don't know the movie well enough to back up your argument. The only desertion once Holdo took command was Finn+Rose, at Poe's behest. Connix lies through her teeth to Holdo to cover their escape.

Ummm... Rose clearly tells Finn that she's at the escape pods because she is preventing desertions, and has already stopped several. What, you think the would-be deserters suddenly stopped the minute she was no longer guarding the pods?

As RR said, I laid out earlier in my post how the deserters Rose stopped were before Holdo took command, possibly including Finn (Poe went to the briefing whee Hondo was introduced while Finn went to jump ship). We have no reason to believe the desertion situation got any better or worse under Holdo.

The part he's blatantly misrepresenting is that morale was so bad that the bridge crew noticed but shrugged their shoulders when Finn and Rose stole their shuttle. I'd post the scene if I could find it on YouTube.

We see the shuttle launch, then it cuts to the bridge. The scanner in front of Lt. Connix beeps, Holdo asks "what was that?" and Connix lies "Nothing, Admiral. Passing debris." She then turns and looks directly at Poe, who is lurking right outside the bridge. Poe nods back to Connix and slinks off.

It's funny, I hate the writing in this movie, but rewatching these scenes I've gained appreciation for RJ as a director.

[The Romulan Republic]

Oh, Johnson is definitely a competent director, who pays attention to the little details in a scene. People may not disagree with his decisions, but anyone who says that they were the result of carelessness or incompetence rather than deliberate choices as a director is doing him an injustice.

[Rogue 9]

Little details like what weapons a character is holding at the start of a shot?