Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

[The Romulan Republic]

15 and 12 I would actually consider highly questionable, given how rapidly people change and mature at that age.

But that aside, see above reg. fandom taking over the franchises, and just feeling generally out of character to me.

On a more positive, less "you damn fanfic writers get off my lawn" note... Brienne got knighted. That's probably fan-servicey too, but in this case I can live with it. Because damn it, she deserves it.

[Esquire]

You do realize that Arya was giving appraising eyes on Gendry back in season 2, right? While she is critical of his stance in this scene, she seems to be doing more than just observing his fencing form. Or a season later, in which they seem to have a real connection here. Given that sort of buildup, it doesn't seem totally out of character that the two harbored feelings for each other, and only when both are older and a lot wiser, and with the apocalypse around the corner, do they act on their feelings.

I... don't really see the contradiction? My whole position is that I think the whole thing makes sense, given two young people with history and strong incentives not to waste time. It's not the world's most compelling romance, but why would anybody expect it to be?

Yeah, pretty much the only way I can sort of stomach it is if you read it as "world's ending, Arya suddenly realized that she's still a virgin, and she just decided to fuck the only person of the opposite sex present (other than close family) with whom she had any emotional attachment whatsoever, and Gendry went along with it because he's scared/he inherited his dad's screw anything with tits genes."

Yes, how dare this guy probably about to be killed by literal dead people acquiesce to the unsolicited advances of his unimaginably-overwhelming social superior. Such a horrible thing. Shame on everyone involved. After all, anyone at all seemed in any way offended, and so we must necessarily shun everyone involved forever.

No, wait, that makes no sense at all.

[FaxModem1]

15 and 12 I would actually consider highly questionable, given how rapidly people change and mature at that age.

But that aside, see above reg. fandom taking over the franchises, and just feeling generally out of character to me.

I will note that such a thing has happened before in Westeros under more dubious circumstances. As noted before, Margaery deflowered Tommen to try and groom him into being on her side, and no one seemed to bat an eyelash while Arya and Gendry are friends, have fought together, and are both now of legal age. Double standards there?

On a more positive, less "you damn fanfic writers get off my lawn" note... Brienne got knighted. That's probably fan-servicey too, but in this case I can live with it. Because damn it, she deserves it.

One nice thing about war is that a lot of stupid traditions that are in place for tradition's sake get tossed to the wayside in the name of practicality. A good historical example would be women working back during World War 2. I do hope Brienne pays it forward toward Pod. Ser Pod the Angel Voiced, maybe?

You do realize that Arya was giving appraising eyes on Gendry back in season 2, right? While she is critical of his stance in this scene, she seems to be doing more than just observing his fencing form. Or a season later, in which they seem to have a real connection here. Given that sort of buildup, it doesn't seem totally out of character that the two harbored feelings for each other, and only when both are older and a lot wiser, and with the apocalypse around the corner, do they act on their feelings.

I... don't really see the contradiction? My whole position is that I think the whole thing makes sense, given two young people with history and strong incentives not to waste time. It's not the world's most compelling romance, but why would anybody expect it to be?

Sorry, that was directed at TRR, since I've found them to be slightly romantic towards each other since season 3, just not following it due to the realities of their situation at the time(her being high born, him being low born).

[The Romulan Republic]

You do realize that Arya was giving appraising eyes on Gendry back in season 2, right? While she is critical of his stance in this scene, she seems to be doing more than just observing his fencing form. Or a season later, in which they seem to have a real connection here. Given that sort of buildup, it doesn't seem totally out of character that the two harbored feelings for each other, and only when both are older and a lot wiser, and with the apocalypse around the corner, do they act on their feelings.

I... don't really see the contradiction? My whole position is that I think the whole thing makes sense, given two young people with history and strong incentives not to waste time. It's not the world's most compelling romance, but why would anybody expect it to be?

Yeah, pretty much the only way I can sort of stomach it is if you read it as "world's ending, Arya suddenly realized that she's still a virgin, and she just decided to fuck the only person of the opposite sex present (other than close family) with whom she had any emotional attachment whatsoever, and Gendry went along with it because he's scared/he inherited his dad's screw anything with tits genes."

Yes, how dare this guy probably about to be killed by literal dead people acquiesce to the unsolicited advances of his unimaginably-overwhelming social superior. Such a horrible thing. Shame on everyone involved. After all, anyone at all seemed in any way offended, and so we must necessarily shun everyone involved forever.

No, wait, that makes no sense at all.

I didn't say almost all of that, but when has what I actually said every mattered on this board, compared to what people can say straw TRR said?

Edit: I'll actually claim the "Arya massively socially out-ranks Gendry and could be seen as pressuring him into" as a point for my side as to why its creepy.

You seem to think that I'm arguing that Gendry took advantage of Arya or something, and getting all "Feminist double-standard out to blame men" defensive. Hell, FaxModem seems to think the same, given he evidently thinks "But Margarey did it too, double standard" is a counter-argument to my points. But that's not what my issues are with it at all.

[The Romulan Republic]

15 and 12 I would actually consider highly questionable, given how rapidly people change and mature at that age.

But that aside, see above reg. fandom taking over the franchises, and just feeling generally out of character to me.

I will note that such a thing has happened before in Westeros under more dubious circumstances. As noted before, Margaery deflowered Tommen to try and groom him into being on her side, and no one seemed to bat an eyelash while Arya and Gendry are friends, have fought together, and are both now of legal age. Double standards there?

For the record, I think Margery and Tommen was icky too, but we're not talking about that now.

One nice thing about war is that a lot of stupid traditions that are in place for tradition's sake get tossed to the wayside in the name of practicality. A good historical example would be women working back during World War 2. I do hope Brienne pays it forward toward Pod. Ser Pod the Angel Voiced, maybe?

One of the few things war has going for it, really.

Jon mentioned arming the women of the North a while back as well. And it probably helps that the new Queen is probably going to be inclined to tell anyone who says "only men can be knights" to fuck off.

[FaxModem1]

15 and 12 I would actually consider highly questionable, given how rapidly people change and mature at that age.

But that aside, see above reg. fandom taking over the franchises, and just feeling generally out of character to me.

I will note that such a thing has happened before in Westeros under more dubious circumstances. As noted before, Margaery deflowered Tommen to try and groom him into being on her side, and no one seemed to bat an eyelash while Arya and Gendry are friends, have fought together, and are both now of legal age. Double standards there?

For the record, I think Margery and Tommen was icky too, but we're not talking about that now.

Fine, point is, the two have had feelings for each other for a while, whether due to shared trauma, similar outlooks on things, meshing personalities, or just plain old puppy love. They both grew up, and have now reconnected as adults, with that attraction being there.

Did you find Anakin and Padme's attraction in Attack of the Clones creepy when they reconnected after a decade and soon began romancing each other? I mean disregarding the fact that Padme openly didn't blink an eye at Anakin's sociopathic behavior at slaughtering Tusken Raiders.

[The Romulan Republic]

I will note that such a thing has happened before in Westeros under more dubious circumstances. As noted before, Margaery deflowered Tommen to try and groom him into being on her side, and no one seemed to bat an eyelash while Arya and Gendry are friends, have fought together, and are both now of legal age. Double standards there?

For the record, I think Margery and Tommen was icky too, but we're not talking about that now.

Fine, point is, the two have had feelings for each other for a while, whether due to shared trauma, similar outlooks on things, meshing personalities, or just plain old puppy love. They both grew up, and have now reconnected as adults, with that attraction being there.

Did you find Anakin and Padme's attraction in Attack of the Clones creepy when they reconnected after a decade and soon began romancing each other? I mean disregarding the fact that Padme openly didn't blink an eye at Anakin's sociopathic behavior at slaughtering Tusken Raiders.

Yeah, a bit. Its not as bad there as with Arya/Gendry, though, because (in-universe) they made developing it one of the two main plots of a feature film, so it didn't seem as rushed as it does here, and (out-of-universe) because we always knew it was coming, so it didn't seem as out of the blue/pandering to the fandom. Plus one of the parties was pretty clearly into the other from the get-go.

But, points for originality. I mean, this is probably the first time I've seen someone use Anakin/Padme in Attack of the Clones in defense of how to write romance. Its, like, probably the most notorious example in pop culture outside of Twilight of a creepy, badly-written romance. More than it deserves to be, really, but still.

Also, off-topic, but I disagree that Anakin's behavior was "sociopathic". It was lashing out in rage, built on an underlying foundation of latent racism and probable PTSD. People on the internet toss around "sociopathy" as a label any time a character does something evil or "dark". But sociopathy is a psychiatric term with distinctive characteristics, and I don't think it fits Anakin terribly well.

[FaxModem1]

I guess Sabrina is just as lecherous a work for Sabrina's love for David continuing on for years, even after she's moved to France and become a gourmet chef, and later for Linus, who is even older.

So is It's a Wonderful Life for having Mary Bailey be in love with George when they were kids, and when they meet again when she's finishing high school and he's in his late twenties, only for things to go wrong and they don't rekindle their relationship until years later over a very breathy phone call about plastics. Even though it's not the main plot of the film about how Bedford Falls would utterly collapse without George's good nature and constant work to keep everyone afloat.

Or, it's a very old storytelling cliche of people who were friends or acquaintances as kids meet again, one initiates a relationship, and they fall in love, or admit feelings that were always there, and the other partner doesn't see them as a little kid anymore, because they aren't.

[The Romulan Republic]

I guess Sabrina is just as lecherous a work for Sabrina's love for David continuing on for years, even after she's moved to France and become a gourmet chef, and later for Linus, who is even older.

So is It's a Wonderful Life for having Mary Bailey be in love with George when they were kids, and when they meet again when she's finishing high school and he's in his late twenties, only for things to go wrong and they don't rekindle their relationship until years later over a very breathy phone call about plastics. Even though it's not the main plot of the film about how Bedford Falls would utterly collapse without George's good nature and constant work to keep everyone afloat.

Or, it's a very old storytelling cliche of people who were friends or acquaintances as kids meet again, one initiates a relationship, and they fall in love, or admit feelings that were always there, and the other partner doesn't see them as a little kid anymore, because they aren't.

Yeah, but not all examples are equal. This one is to me particularly bad, given the age gap between them when they met, and the seemingly rushed nature of their relationship this season.

Or basically... its an old trope. Like most tropes, it can be executed better or worse. Saying "well its an old trope" isn't an argument for why this execution works, as opposed to falling flat on its ass.

[FaxModem1]

Yeah, but not all examples are equal. This one is to me particularly bad, given the age gap between them when they met, and the seemingly rushed nature of their relationship this season.

Linus and Sabrina had a much bigger gap, and Mary and George are about the same distance in ages.

Or basically... its an old trope. Like most tropes, it can be executed better or worse. Saying "well its an old trope" isn't an argument for why this execution works, as opposed to falling flat on its ass.

It's ultimately subjective, but objectively Gendry and Arya have had a connection since season 2 to his being taken away by force in season 3. Their reuniting here in season 8, but they did explain what Gendry and Arya have been up to, as well as Arya proving to Gendry via her own way that she's not a little girl anymore(the throwing of obsidian blades at the wall). Did it take up half the two episodes with their catching up? No, but they did reconnect. It's a payoff from setup long ago in season 3.

Sansa and Theon potentially becoming a couple inspired more of an eyebrow raise from me regarding it seeming to come out of left field.

[FaxModem1]

I think a cause of this discomfort is also due to costuming and padding. Both Maisie WIlliams thorughout the series, and Audrey Hepburn in Sabrina, wore binding to make them appear not as developed as they actually were in the initial meeting scenes. Maisie had to wear binding all the way back in season 2 until season 6, when she was finally allowed to wear a more revealing costume and didn't have to hide her body as much anymore. The lack of features probably made her look younger than she actually was to the audience. In-universe, it was to hide the fact that she was a girl and not a boy.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, but not all examples are equal. This one is to me particularly bad, given the age gap between them when they met, and the seemingly rushed nature of their relationship this season.

Linus and Sabrina had a much bigger gap, and Mary and George are about the same distance in ages.

Or basically... its an old trope. Like most tropes, it can be executed better or worse. Saying "well its an old trope" isn't an argument for why this execution works, as opposed to falling flat on its ass.

It's ultimately subjective, but objectively Gendry and Arya have had a connection since season 2 to his being taken away by force in season 3. Their reuniting here in season 8, but they did explain what Gendry and Arya have been up to, as well as Arya proving to Gendry via her own way that she's not a little girl anymore(the throwing of obsidian blades at the wall). Did it take up half the two episodes with their catching up? No, but they did reconnect. It's a payoff from setup long ago in season 3.

Sansa and Theon potentially becoming a couple inspired more of an eyebrow raise from me regarding it seeming to come out of left field.

Maybe. They did escape Ramsey together, but being victims of the same sociopath doesn't seem like the strongest foundation for a relationship to me. I suppose politically it makes sense, to unite Houses Greyjoy and Stark.

[Vympel]

Maisie Williams is 22, Arya is 18, there's plenty of buildup to this sort of cathartic release in the previous seasons of the show, a character having sex is way, way, way less disturbing than Ayra the Dead-Eyed Mass Murderer we saw for like the past 3 seaons. This is a bullshit controversy.

[FireNexus]

I'll actually claim the "Arya massively socially out-ranks Gendry and could be seen as pressuring him into" as a point for my side as to why its creepy.

Did you not notice the huge Game-of-Throner Gendry got when she threw those knives at the beam to explain why she didn’t need big strong Gendry to keep little old her out of danger?

You find it creepy because you remember her being a little girl a lot more than Gendry does. That’s it. It’s honesty probably one of the least creepy sexual relationships on the entire show. Nobody is being raped, or molested, or groomed, or human-trafficked, or committing (intentional or unwitting) incest.

As far as Arya’s social superiority, I think that likely works in the opposite direction of Gendry getting his fuck on. Because being a lowborn blacksmith (royal bastard or not) and knocking up one of the two unmarried “daughters” of a family floating on the margins between high nobility and directly adjacent to royalty is how you get yourself in deep shit. And I assume it’s relatively common knowledge what happened the last time a stark bedded a commoner.

[FireNexus]

I don’t think Sansa and Theon becoming a couple was really telegraphed. I think Sansa was just happy to see him because he saved her from being brutally and repeatedly raped and tortured by Ramsay. If it does happen, I’d say something it has something to do with the fact that she likely never wants to see another man’s dick again after what she has been through.

[ray245]

I don’t think Sansa and Theon becoming a couple was really telegraphed. I think Sansa was just happy to see him because he saved her from being brutally and repeatedly raped and tortured by Ramsay. If it does happen, I’d say something it has something to do with the fact that she likely never wants to see another man’s dick again after what she has been through.

I don't see every scene between a male character and a female character as being romantic just because they looked at each other.

[Lord Insanity]

So did everyone forget Theon was raised with the Stark kids as a brother? That was why his betrayal was such a big deal when he conquered Winterfell. (and why he didn't actually kill the smallest ones despite saying he did.) Then he proved himself loyal by helping Sansa escape Ramsay. I watched that scene as being a brother and sister hug.

If the next episode actually is a big battle for Winterfell ,(which is far from a given) and they do "easily" defeat the night king, anyone else think Danny will "accidentally" rake Jon with dragon fire at the last and unintentionally prove he is the true heir.

[Solauren]

As far as Arya’s social superiority, I think that likely works in the opposite direction of Gendry getting his fuck on. Because being a lowborn blacksmith (royal bastard or not) and knocking up one of the two unmarried “daughters” of a family floating on the margins between high nobility and directly adjacent to royalty is how you get yourself in deep shit. And I assume it’s relatively common knowledge what happened the last time a stark bedded a commoner.

A few things
- No one is going to care about Gendry banging Arya, as everyone believes they are about to be in a fight to the death with the dead.

- He fucking saved Jon Snow and company by running to the Wall to get that Raven to Daeny. No one is going to say anything about him banging Arya.

- Arya literally ordered him to take his pants off. Until he's legitimatized (if ever), she does socially outrank him. Especially in Winterfell.

- Gendry is the last of the Baretheon line. It's not unheard of for bastards, under those circumstances, to be made legitimate. Case in point, Stannis offered it to Jon. Legitimizing Gendry, and naming him lord of Storms End, would bring the Stormlands in to 'Camp Targeryon'.

- Gendry's father, and Arya's fathers were best friends, and had an agreement for Robert's Son to marry one of Ned's daughters. It would be very easy for Arya and Sansa to point that out. Sansa could then point out as a widow, she's declining, and Arya is accepting.

- Let's face facts, Arya is now scary as all hell. Anyone would have to be an idiot to raise a legitimate stink over this. After all, piss her off by coming down on Gendry, you'll probably end up missing your face.

[FireNexus]

I don’t think Sansa and Theon becoming a couple was really telegraphed. I think Sansa was just happy to see him because he saved her from being brutally and repeatedly raped and tortured by Ramsay. If it does happen, I’d say something it has something to do with the fact that she likely never wants to see another man’s dick again after what she has been through.

I don't see every scene between a male character and a female character as being romantic just because they looked at each other.

We don’t disagree.

[Elfdart]

You do realize that Arya was giving appraising eyes on Gendry back in season 2, right? While she is critical of his stance in this scene, she seems to be doing more than just observing his fencing form. Or a season later, in which they seem to have a real connection here. Given that sort of buildup, it doesn't seem totally out of character that the two harbored feelings for each other, and only when both are older and a lot wiser, and with the apocalypse around the corner, do they act on their feelings.

The way she looked at Gendry was like Padme in the first half of Attack of the Clones: When she meets Anakin after 10 ten years and says "Why Annie, you've grown!" she had this look on her face like "I'm gonna fuck this teenager, just watch me!"

Did I find it awkward? Yes, kinda like when Alyssa Milano started doing TV ads where she's all tarted up, and tit-flicks like Embrace of the Vampire. I always have and always will think of her as being the kid who played Schwarzenegger's daughter in Commando.

[Elfdart]

Predictions:

DEAD:
Theon
Grey Worm
Varys
Any other male who has no dick or balls
Ser Friendzone Jorah
Royce
Berric
Ghost (fuck you, Weiss & Benioff!)
Karstark and any other character with a name but no lines

NOT QUITE DEAD:
Sam, Little Sam, Gilly
Ed
Little Girl with the scar on her face
Tormund
Jamie
Missandei
Brienne
Podrick
Davos

ALIVE:
Jon
Sansa
Arya
Danerys
Tyrion
Lianna Mormont

SURPRISE!
Melissandre, Yara or both turn up just in time to rescue a few survivors.

[Elfdart]

The Hound is a goner, too.

[FireNexus]

Whelp, Arya bagged her white walker. Does this mean she can retire from killing?

[ray245]

Cersei is going to win by default, because she has all the luck in the world. She'll probably be killed by Jamie, but I'm not really invested in the outcome.

[RogueIce]

So we lost Theon, Firesword Guy, Jorah, the Night's Watch guy and the Red Witch. Did I miss anyone?

Well, maybe Ghost. He didn't come back from that charge, but who knows? Maybe he got lucky. Kind of a terrible way to send off the last direwolf, though.

And Dany loses another dragon.