EP 9 teaser trailer

[Ender]

I am also often troubled by the glorification of suicide attacks in media. But its pretty clear to me that in ESB Luke expected to die, and that it was pure luck that he didn't. And I don't see how Holdo ramming the Supremacy is all that different from that A wing pilot ramming the Executor at Endor, except that it got more screen time because Holdo was a major character. And then there's Obi-wan letting Vader cut him down...

I covered the other two, but the A-wing ramming is not a suicide. We see him take a hit, which starts the careening out of control, and we get a closeup shot of him screaming in terror. It is not presented as an intentional act.

Past that I really think you are reaching to defend this element of TLJ. I get that the squealing hogs have been spreading shit for a while now, but that doesn't mean you need to defend every element of the film. Some parts are bad, and the "suicide is the solution" theme is one of them.

In no way is Luke's attempt to kill Ben portrayed as in any way ambiguous. And even calling it an attempt is stretching it, given that if you believe Luke's account of events, it was a momentary impulse that he would not have followed through on (which I'm inclined to believe because the only alternate account is from the highly unstable Kylo, and let's be honest- if Luke truly wanted to kill that incompetent, and took him off-guard and sleeping, do you really think he would have lost?)

In any case, Luke's actions are portrayed as his greatest mistake, something which destroys a young man in his care, leads to the destruction of all his other students and his family, and which he spends the rest of his life bitterly regretting. That's not "grey", that's "This was a horrible fucking mistake and he should never have done it".

we get two accounts from unreliable narrators. That is pretty ambiguous. More to the point, we have Kylo turning out to be evil afterall, so there is the implication that Luke, having considered the deed and started the conflict, should have finished the job - a stance you are leaning towards in this comment as well.

The net takeaway that sure Luke felt really bad about giving into his anger, but if he had gone through with it a lot of pain would have been avoided, makes its portrayal as surrendering to anger being justified.

[Ender]

The great heroes having no other avenue left and having to resort to such things might also be part of TLJ's playing with the conventions - showing the consequences and the no-other-choices people end up in, which discomforts and makes hard the happy-go-lucky power projection fantasies and escapisms and comfortable superhero-series-style-staleness conventions that a lot of nerds lap up. Even sans Rian and TLJ, we already begin with a Vader fanboy nerd incel MRA fixated on fanworship and legacy entitlement that he's become a midichlorian-juiced saber-swinging spree killer. I bet after Luke fucked up and Kylo went apeshit, he totally got a transmitter and started broadcasting his saber-spree of the New Jedi Order live on HoloNet with all the First Order recruits, Imperial/FO-sympathetic cretins, alt-imp losers getting hard in their cesspools in Holochan. Are the Knights of Ren his peers from the Order, or are they copycats who came to be afterwards, spooling the holos of Kylo's attacks over and over again while going through his ironic manifesto?

I disagree; I think the "suicide as a solution"/blaze of glory/heroic martyr convention goes much more to the power fantasies and escapaism than subverts them. It is part of the whole "never have to deal with any consequences" part of power fantasies. Umberto Eco was already brought up, but as general thing it always reminds me of how in these films, you never see anyone deal with PTSD or realistic psychological trauma mid combat, or any of the other things we know happen. Instead when they have their moment, it is always a clarifying snap that makes them billy badass supreme, and they never have to deal with the after effects. There aren't night terrors and panic attacks and physical therapy sessions afterwards, there is no being prosecuted for what you did, no having to deal with the ripple effects of the violence.

The question of who is fighting and dying, and why they are, and what happens to everyone once the violence is done, that all gets erased away if you go down fighting. You got to show how alpha and tough and what a leader you were, but you don't have to deal with the consequences of your actions, anymore than if you

It is pure power fantasy.

and yeah, Driver and the SW team making Kylo Ren another Ben Shapiro fanboy who goes on a spree shooting is one of the better elements of the films

[The Romulan Republic]

I am also often troubled by the glorification of suicide attacks in media. But its pretty clear to me that in ESB Luke expected to die, and that it was pure luck that he didn't. And I don't see how Holdo ramming the Supremacy is all that different from that A wing pilot ramming the Executor at Endor, except that it got more screen time because Holdo was a major character. And then there's Obi-wan letting Vader cut him down...

I covered the other two, but the A-wing ramming is not a suicide. We see him take a hit, which starts the careening out of control, and we get a closeup shot of him screaming in terror. It is not presented as an intentional act.

Past that I really think you are reaching to defend this element of TLJ. I get that the squealing hogs have been spreading shit for a while now, but that doesn't mean you need to defend every element of the film. Some parts are bad, and the "suicide is the solution" theme is one of them.

Except if that's the theme, how do you account for Rose stopping Finn?

we get two accounts from unreliable narrators. That is pretty ambiguous.

Both accounts portray it as an unmitigated fuck up at best. There is ambiguity about exact details of what happened. There is no ambiguity that what Luke did was wrong.

I would also maintain that Luke's version is more credible, and likely closer to the truth, for the reasons I stated above.

More to the point, we have Kylo turning out to be evil afterall, so there is the implication that Luke, having considered the deed and started the conflict, should have finished the job - a stance you are leaning towards in this comment as well.

Um? Excuse me? Where did I suggest that Luke should have "finished the job"? Do not put words in my mouth, please, as I think nothing of the sort.

And yeah, Kylo turned out to be evil- but that doesn't mean that Luke was right to consider or attempt preemptively murdering him. Indeed, an argument can be made that Luke's actions are what finally pushed him over the edge- and self-fulfilling prophecy is a classic trope, and one that's been used in Star Wars before. This is how the Dark Side works, and what it did with Anakin and Padme: show you something you fear, or want. Offer you the solution if you give in to anger and hate and draw on it for power. And then betray you, potentially causing the very thing you feared to come to pass.

You could interpret Luke's declaration at the end that he cannot save Kylo as meaning that Kylo was always going to be evil- or you could interpret it as meaning that the chance is now past due to his prior mistakes, or that someone else could be he's not the one for the job.

The net takeaway that sure Luke felt really bad about giving into his anger, but if he had gone through with it a lot of pain would have been avoided, makes its portrayal as surrendering to anger being justified.

That's a really twisted interpretation. Luke considering murdering Kylo pushes him over the edge and ensures his fall. Clearly, this means that the film is saying Luke should have preemptively murdered him. Frankly, I think its you who are reaching here.

I would argue that if he had gone through with it, based on how these things have previously worked in canon, the likely result would have been Luke falling to the Dark Side. Which give his power and experience, would probably have been infinitely worse for the galaxy than Kylo falling. If Luke justifies preemptive murder to himself then, how long before he starts preemptively killing everyone who might pose a threat at some point in the future? Or mind-controlling his students to make sure that they don't stray from the One True Path? Why not build his own Starkiller Base and preemptively blast the First Order? Just think of all the lives it would have saved. When his friends, seeing that he's gone off the rails, try to intervene... well, clearly they're a threat, because they're standing in the way of What Needs To Be Done. Hell, why not make himself Emperor, to make sure that the Republic doesn't make the wrong choices in the future?

This is how the Dark Side works.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'll also add that my personal theory, though like so much in the Sequels its not explicitly stated, is that Luke knew this, and that part of the reason he ran away was not simply guilty, or fear, but fear that he would fall if he faced Kylo again, or killed Kylo. He knew that he couldn't redeem Kylo, that he had failed as a teacher- which left fighting Kylo, and he was afraid that in the process he would descend into the Dark Side. And the fact that two Jedi Orders in less than a century were destroyed by a fallen Jedi probably contributed to his view that the Jedi needed to end.

[Shroom Man 777]

I disagree; I think the "suicide as a solution"/blaze of glory/heroic martyr convention goes much more to the power fantasies and escapaism than subverts them.

Aside from Rose stopping Finn from doing that, when Holdo did it, I think it was subverted because her attack was precisely because of the consequences they had to bear and we see that it's not a power fantasy and escapism as it pissed the ever loving crap out of so many people - even without the way it messed with SW FTL.

[Elfdart]

So Kylo Ren is trying to run down Rey in the desert by flying into her? What the fuck it this, The English Patient?

[NeoGoomba]

I want a classic exchange like this one in the new film:

Kylo Ren: "Look, I killed Skywalker!"

Flunkie 1: "I killed the Skywalker"

Flunkie 2: "And I killed the Skywalker"

True Sith (played by Mortal Kombat's Shang Tsung): "Many of us have! But he keeps coming back."

[Lord Insanity]

So I finally had a chance to watch the trailer. I guess I am one of the few that actually liked Rey performing a maneuver that was comparable to what we routinely saw force users do in Clone Wars and Rebels. I mean granted it was completely stupid to be charging her along the ground in a fighter in the first place but that is far from the dumbest thing we have seen in the sequel trilogy so far. The large chunk of death star surviving the explosion into tiny bits we saw in ROTJ is far dumber.

[The Romulan Republic]

So I finally had a chance to watch the trailer. I guess I am one of the few that actually liked Rey performing a maneuver that was comparable to what we routinely saw force users do in Clone Wars and Rebels. I mean granted it was completely stupid to be charging her along the ground in a fighter in the first place but that is far from the dumbest thing we have seen in the sequel trilogy so far. The large chunk of death star surviving the explosion into tiny bits we saw in ROTJ is far dumber.

I like the Rey vs fighter thing. It looks a little cheesy to me but in a bad ass way (or bad ass in a cheesy way*). And anything that shows Rey kicking ass is welcome, because its an indication that Abrams isn't going to tone down her power to appease the 'WAAAHHHHH, MARY SUE!!!" crowd. Especially if she's kicking Kylo Ren's ass.




*If anyone thinks bad ass and cheesy is a contradiction, you've never seen William Shatner hamming it up as Captain James Tiberius Kirk. Or Geoffrey Rush hamming it up as Captain Barbossa in Pirates of the Caribbean. Or... just, the Doctor, pretty much ever.

[Lord Revan]

So I finally had a chance to watch the trailer. I guess I am one of the few that actually liked Rey performing a maneuver that was comparable to what we routinely saw force users do in Clone Wars and Rebels. I mean granted it was completely stupid to be charging her along the ground in a fighter in the first place but that is far from the dumbest thing we have seen in the sequel trilogy so far. The large chunk of death star surviving the explosion into tiny bits we saw in ROTJ is far dumber.

I like the Rey vs fighter thing. It looks a little cheesy to me but in a bad ass way (or bad ass in a cheesy way*). And anything that shows Rey kicking ass is welcome, because its an indication that Abrams isn't going to tone down her power to appease the 'WAAAHHHHH, MARY SUE!!!" crowd. Especially if she's kicking Kylo Ren's ass.




*If anyone thinks bad ass and cheesy is a contradiction, you've never seen William Shatner hamming it up as Captain James Tiberius Kirk. Or Geoffrey Rush hamming it up as Captain Barbossa in Pirates of the Caribbean. Or... just, the Doctor, pretty much ever.

In my honest option whether something is cheesy in a good or bad way depends on the tone of peice, as for the "waahhh Mary Sue" crowd I doubt they would be please unless you robbed Rey of all agency and turned her into a throphy for the guys to "win".

Now there's some good arguments for Rey being a bad character but the most vocal "she's a Mary Sue" arguments can summed as "she has a vagina and agency therefore she's a Mary Sue".

[ray245]

So I finally had a chance to watch the trailer. I guess I am one of the few that actually liked Rey performing a maneuver that was comparable to what we routinely saw force users do in Clone Wars and Rebels. I mean granted it was completely stupid to be charging her along the ground in a fighter in the first place but that is far from the dumbest thing we have seen in the sequel trilogy so far. The large chunk of death star surviving the explosion into tiny bits we saw in ROTJ is far dumber.

I like the Rey vs fighter thing. It looks a little cheesy to me but in a bad ass way (or bad ass in a cheesy way*). And anything that shows Rey kicking ass is welcome, because its an indication that Abrams isn't going to tone down her power to appease the 'WAAAHHHHH, MARY SUE!!!" crowd. Especially if she's kicking Kylo Ren's ass.


*If anyone thinks bad ass and cheesy is a contradiction, you've never seen William Shatner hamming it up as Captain James Tiberius Kirk. Or Geoffrey Rush hamming it up as Captain Barbossa in Pirates of the Caribbean. Or... just, the Doctor, pretty much ever.

I won't mind if Rey isn't written as such a passive character. Her personal journey felt massively sideline in favour of Luke's journey in TLJ.

[The Romulan Republic]

So I finally had a chance to watch the trailer. I guess I am one of the few that actually liked Rey performing a maneuver that was comparable to what we routinely saw force users do in Clone Wars and Rebels. I mean granted it was completely stupid to be charging her along the ground in a fighter in the first place but that is far from the dumbest thing we have seen in the sequel trilogy so far. The large chunk of death star surviving the explosion into tiny bits we saw in ROTJ is far dumber.

I like the Rey vs fighter thing. It looks a little cheesy to me but in a bad ass way (or bad ass in a cheesy way*). And anything that shows Rey kicking ass is welcome, because its an indication that Abrams isn't going to tone down her power to appease the 'WAAAHHHHH, MARY SUE!!!" crowd. Especially if she's kicking Kylo Ren's ass.


*If anyone thinks bad ass and cheesy is a contradiction, you've never seen William Shatner hamming it up as Captain James Tiberius Kirk. Or Geoffrey Rush hamming it up as Captain Barbossa in Pirates of the Caribbean. Or... just, the Doctor, pretty much ever.

I won't mind if Rey isn't written as such a passive character. Her personal journey felt massively sideline in favour of Luke's journey in TLJ.

I don't know about that, and I sure as hell wouldn't single TLJ out on that score.

In TFA, Rey was basically just caught up in events and pulled along. She was likeable enough, to me at least, but the closest thing to character depth was her insecurities about leaving Jakku, which were quickly abandoned with no real arc.

TLJ at least acknowledged her primary character flaw in more depth (her sense of lacking a place and attachment/abandonment issues due to her lack of family/identity), showed how that tempted her toward the Dark Side and made her open to manipulation, and showed her overcoming them (even if the reasons for that shift weren't well-developed) when she rejected Kylo. As uncomfortable and confused as some of it seemed to me, she did have more character development in TLJ than in TFA, where personality and backstory-wise she was basically just "Generic Protagonist 101", and a thinly-sketched one at that, aside from being female.

Edit: TLJ also completely destroyed any meaningful argument that Rey is a "Mary Sue" (Force, I hate that term) that doesn't boil down to misogyny. Because contrary to what people seem to think, the original definitions of "Mary Sue" weren't really about how "powerful" a character was, and there are lots of (generally male) characters of extraordinary power and/or ability that aren't usually called Mary Sues. Initially, as I understand it, there were two basic definitions of "Mary Sue"- an author self-insert, and then a character who warped the story around them so that they always succeeded/were always right. As far as I know, Abrams didn't write Rey as a self-insert, and no one has ever really made that case that I've seen. Which leaves definition two. And TLJ obliterated that case against Rey. Think about it: she fails every time she tries to persuade a character to do anything important that she wants. She can't get Luke to come help the Resistance, and instead ends up being banished by him and dueling him. She can't persuade Kylo to return to the Light Side. She gets beaten by Snoke with casual ease too. A classic Mary Sue would turn out to have a Super-Duper Special Heritage, and everyone would fawn over her (or be obviously, puppy-kicking evil if they didn't), and she'd redeem the fallen bad boy with the Power of Tru Wuv. Instead, Rey has basically zero charisma, zero persuasive or diplomatic skills in-universe, no special heritage, fails to redeem Kylo Ren, and fails hard at almost everything she attempts prior to the very end of the film.

That is not a Mary Sue by any vaguely meaningful definition.

[The Romulan Republic]

Which also ties into Yoda's comments to Luke about failure being a teacher. TLJ has a recurring theme/motif of "the heroes fail, but learn from that failure." Rey, Luke, and Poe all embody this in different ways.

[ray245]

I like the Rey vs fighter thing. It looks a little cheesy to me but in a bad ass way (or bad ass in a cheesy way*). And anything that shows Rey kicking ass is welcome, because its an indication that Abrams isn't going to tone down her power to appease the 'WAAAHHHHH, MARY SUE!!!" crowd. Especially if she's kicking Kylo Ren's ass.


*If anyone thinks bad ass and cheesy is a contradiction, you've never seen William Shatner hamming it up as Captain James Tiberius Kirk. Or Geoffrey Rush hamming it up as Captain Barbossa in Pirates of the Caribbean. Or... just, the Doctor, pretty much ever.

I won't mind if Rey isn't written as such a passive character. Her personal journey felt massively sideline in favour of Luke's journey in TLJ.

I don't know about that, and I sure as hell wouldn't single TLJ out on that score.

In TFA, Rey was basically just caught up in events and pulled along. She was likeable enough, to me at least, but the closest thing to character depth was her insecurities about leaving Jakku, which were quickly abandoned with no real arc.

TLJ at least acknowledged her primary character flaw in more depth (her sense of lacking a place and attachment/abandonment issues due to her lack of family/identity), showed how that tempted her toward the Dark Side and made her open to manipulation, and showed her overcoming them (even if the reasons for that shift weren't well-developed) when she rejected Kylo. As uncomfortable and confused as some of it seemed to me, she did have more character development in TLJ than in TFA, where personality and backstory-wise she was basically just "Generic Protagonist 101", and a thinly-sketched one at that, aside from being female.

Edit: TLJ also completely destroyed any meaningful argument that Rey is a "Mary Sue" (Force, I hate that term) that doesn't boil down to misogyny. Because contrary to what people seem to think, the original definitions of "Mary Sue" weren't really about how "powerful" a character was, and there are lots of (generally male) characters of extraordinary power and/or ability that aren't usually called Mary Sues. Initially, as I understand it, there were two basic definitions of "Mary Sue"- an author self-insert, and then a character who warped the story around them so that they always succeeded/were always right. As far as I know, Abrams didn't write Rey as a self-insert, and no one has ever really made that case that I've seen. Which leaves definition two. And TLJ obliterated that case against Rey. Think about it: she fails every time she tries to persuade a character to do anything important that she wants. She can't get Luke to come help the Resistance, and instead ends up being banished by him and dueling him. She can't persuade Kylo to return to the Light Side. She gets beaten by Snoke with casual ease too. A classic Mary Sue would turn out to have a Super-Duper Special Heritage, and everyone would fawn over her (or be obviously, puppy-kicking evil if they didn't), and she'd redeem the fallen bad boy with the Power of Tru Wuv. Instead, Rey has basically zero charisma, zero persuasive or diplomatic skills in-universe, no special heritage, fails to redeem Kylo Ren, and fails hard at almost everything she attempts prior to the very end of the film.

That is not a Mary Sue by any vaguely meaningful definition.

Luke was caught up in events, but you still get his agency in how he embrace being a Jedi and the force. With Rey, I have no idea what direction writers want for her.

The "Mary sue" complaints comes from the way she developed her powers. People felt she was more powerful than the chosen one and Luke Skywalker as a novice, and that's certainly how she was depicted as. The explanation in TLJ is essentially her being the chosen one MK 2.0, but more powerful because the dark side is more powerful.

Personally, I prefer to see a Jedi character needing training, guidance, and mediation before they master the different force skills. Learning to become more zen-like is a skill that needs to be mastered in my opinion. If someone starts off a story as being naturally zen-like, I find that to be a little boring.

[The Romulan Republic]

I won't mind if Rey isn't written as such a passive character. Her personal journey felt massively sideline in favour of Luke's journey in TLJ.

I don't know about that, and I sure as hell wouldn't single TLJ out on that score.

In TFA, Rey was basically just caught up in events and pulled along. She was likeable enough, to me at least, but the closest thing to character depth was her insecurities about leaving Jakku, which were quickly abandoned with no real arc.

TLJ at least acknowledged her primary character flaw in more depth (her sense of lacking a place and attachment/abandonment issues due to her lack of family/identity), showed how that tempted her toward the Dark Side and made her open to manipulation, and showed her overcoming them (even if the reasons for that shift weren't well-developed) when she rejected Kylo. As uncomfortable and confused as some of it seemed to me, she did have more character development in TLJ than in TFA, where personality and backstory-wise she was basically just "Generic Protagonist 101", and a thinly-sketched one at that, aside from being female.

Edit: TLJ also completely destroyed any meaningful argument that Rey is a "Mary Sue" (Force, I hate that term) that doesn't boil down to misogyny. Because contrary to what people seem to think, the original definitions of "Mary Sue" weren't really about how "powerful" a character was, and there are lots of (generally male) characters of extraordinary power and/or ability that aren't usually called Mary Sues. Initially, as I understand it, there were two basic definitions of "Mary Sue"- an author self-insert, and then a character who warped the story around them so that they always succeeded/were always right. As far as I know, Abrams didn't write Rey as a self-insert, and no one has ever really made that case that I've seen. Which leaves definition two. And TLJ obliterated that case against Rey. Think about it: she fails every time she tries to persuade a character to do anything important that she wants. She can't get Luke to come help the Resistance, and instead ends up being banished by him and dueling him. She can't persuade Kylo to return to the Light Side. She gets beaten by Snoke with casual ease too. A classic Mary Sue would turn out to have a Super-Duper Special Heritage, and everyone would fawn over her (or be obviously, puppy-kicking evil if they didn't), and she'd redeem the fallen bad boy with the Power of Tru Wuv. Instead, Rey has basically zero charisma, zero persuasive or diplomatic skills in-universe, no special heritage, fails to redeem Kylo Ren, and fails hard at almost everything she attempts prior to the very end of the film.

That is not a Mary Sue by any vaguely meaningful definition.

Luke was caught up in events, but you still get his agency in how he embrace being a Jedi and the force. With Rey, I have no idea what direction writers want for her.

When I said that Rey was caught up in events, without much character development of her own, I was referring to TFA, and it wasn't a compliment. I don't like the term "Mary Sue", and I don't think it applies to Rey, and I think it caries a lot of misogynist baggage, but I'll fully acknowledge that her development in TFA was too thin.

But my point is that it seems like you're blaming TLJ for something that is mainly a TFA problem. Which you ignored while diverting the conversation into "Why Luke is better than Rey".

The "Mary sue" complaints comes from the way she developed her powers. People felt she was more powerful than the chosen one and Luke Skywalker as a novice, and that's certainly how she was depicted as.

On the contrary, Luke is arguably depicted as more powerful and skilled in TLJ, at least in practice if not in theoretical potential (the main example being when Kylo says that projecting an image of herself across the galaxy for even a short time, and into just one mind, would kill Rey). You can argue that Rey is morally superior, maybe, but again, she makes poor judgement calls and fails in her objectives throughout the film.

At no point is Rey portrayed as being unambiguously more powerful than Anakin, or Luke as a "novice", and asserting either claim as certain fact is flatly false.

Also, as noted above (and which you also completely ignored)- the term "Mary Sue" was never about power levels, until people broadened the term to the point of meaninglessness to encompass any character they didn't like/any female character who's capabilities made insecure men uncomfortable.

The explanation in TLJ is essentially her being the chosen one MK 2.0, but more powerful because the dark side is more powerful.

I don't recall TLJ or any character in it saying that Rey was more powerful than Anakin (I see her as roughly an Anakin-peer), or that the Dark Side was more powerful now. Don't make shit up.

Personally, I prefer to see a Jedi character needing training, guidance, and mediation before they master the different force skills. Learning to become more zen-like is a skill that needs to be mastered in my opinion. If someone starts off a story as being naturally zen-like, I find that to be a little boring.

I don't feel that the Force is depicted as something that takes decades of training to learn how to master basic techniques, at least not for those with a particularly strong connection. On the contrary, Luke and Anakin both picked up techniques with little instruction (or even self-taught some of them). And maybe a few weeks with Yoda took Luke from a novice to being able to put up a fight against Vader. I also don't see it as having to spend lots of time learning how to perform specific techniques- far more important is state of mind. Remember Luke and Yoda on Dagobah?

Luke: "I don't believe it."

Yoda: "That is why you fail."

In short, mental and emotional state is the key, not learning how to perform each specific technique. If you want to do something, and believe you can, and have the right emotional state (calm for the Light Side, anger/hate for the Dark Side), then you can probably do it. Some people will take longer to master that emotional self-control than others, but the years of training, to me, is probably more about indoctrination in the Jedi Way and learning why to use the Force, than needing years to master specific techniques.

Frankly, to me, your interpretation feels symptomatic of fans viewing the Force as a tool, or as being like grinding to gain character levels in a video game, rather than as a mystical, pseudo-divine energy field. A better way of viewing the Force would be something like the "There is no spoon" scene in the Matrix- and nobody whines about Neo being a Mary Sue who picked up his powers too quickly.

[ray245]

When I said that Rey was caught up in events, without much character development of her own, I was referring to TFA, and it wasn't a compliment. I don't like the term "Mary Sue", and I don't think it applies to Rey, and I think it caries a lot of misogynist baggage, but I'll fully acknowledge that her development in TFA was too thin.

And TLJ didn't do too much to expand on her development. Hence why I'm not invested in Rey's journey to become a Jedi/Skywalker/whatever you want to call it.

But my point is that it seems like you're blaming TLJ for something that is mainly a TFA problem. Which you ignored while diverting the conversation into "Why Luke is better than Rey".

See above.

On the contrary, Luke is arguably depicted as more powerful and skilled in TLJ, at least in practice if not in theoretical potential (the main example being when Kylo says that projecting an image of herself across the galaxy for even a short time, and into just one mind, would kill Rey). You can argue that Rey is morally superior, maybe, but again, she makes poor judgement calls and fails in her objectives throughout the film.

At no point is Rey portrayed as being unambiguously more powerful than Anakin, or Luke as a "novice", and asserting either claim as certain fact is flatly false.

Luke took years to master various force tricks, and his training showed us how he failed at some of the more advance skills. So, I'll say Rey is much better as an novice that Luke ever was. It's kinda hard to ignore that unless you are being very selective with your memory.

Also, as noted above (and which you also completely ignored)- the term "Mary Sue" was never about power levels, until people broadened the term to the point of meaninglessness to encompass any character they didn't like/any female character who's capabilities made insecure men uncomfortable.

Mary Sue often meant new powerful characters that is somehow better than the established characters to me. People had used that term on characters like Anakin as well, back in Ep 1, I think. If a new character is depicted as being more powerful with little drawbacks, that usually prompts people to say they are a Mary sue.

I don't recall TLJ or any character in it saying that Rey was more powerful than Anakin (I see her as roughly an Anakin-peer), or that the Dark Side was more powerful now. Don't make shit up.

As darkness rises, the light rises as well. That's what Snoke said. Rey was more powerful than an untrained Anakin. That's what I'm saying.

I don't feel that the Force is depicted as something that takes decades of training to learn how to master basic techniques, at least not for those with a particularly strong connection. On the contrary, Luke and Anakin both picked up techniques with little instruction (or even self-taught some of them). And maybe a few weeks with Yoda took Luke from a novice to being able to put up a fight against Vader. I also don't see it as having to spend lots of time learning how to perform specific techniques- far more important is state of mind. Remember Luke and Yoda on Dagobah?

Luke: "I don't believe it."

Yoda: "That is why you fail."

In short, mental and emotional state is the key, not learning how to perform each specific technique. If you want to do something, and believe you can, and have the right emotional state (calm for the Light Side, anger/hate for the Dark Side), then you can probably do it. Some people will take longer to master that emotional self-control than others, but the years of training, to me, is probably more about indoctrination in the Jedi Way and learning why to use the Force, than needing years to master specific techniques.

Frankly, to me, your interpretation feels symptomatic of fans viewing the Force as a tool, or as being like grinding to gain character levels in a video game, rather than as a mystical, pseudo-divine energy field. A better way of viewing the Force would be something like the "There is no spoon" scene in the Matrix- and nobody whines about Neo being a Mary Sue who picked up his powers too quickly.

I see unlocking that emotional state (of being balanced) is why Jedi have access to the skills they have. It's not rpg grinding, but more metaphysical development. Once you mastered being zen, skills come naturally.

That is the key compelling narrative, to see how characters develop wisdom in being zen. I see the force as an extension of how Lucas viewed Buddhism, and how shaolin monks mastered their skills.

I think both JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson neglected the Buddhist elements and thinking when it comes to depicting the force, and I think you've ignored the Buddhist aspect as well.

[FaxModem1]

I think the key issue is that in TFA, Rey learns Jedi mind tricks and lightsaber fighting at what seems as if out of nowhere, without anyone teaching them to her, and not seeming to be tapping into her force potential before the events of the film. It's presumed that Luke studied between films, and had enough primers from Obi Wan and Yoda, as well as Anakin getting years of instruction from Obi Wan and the other teachers at the Jedi temple. Rey.....just picks it up as if it's like learning how start a car engine. No instruction or accomplishing a new level of mental discipline, just the turning of the switch, and she can do it like anyone else.

I think that's why Rey's accomplishments feel a tad unearned.

Her combat capability can at least be explained as having grown up on Jakku, and having to deal with all the ruffians she would have encountered there. Her pilot training from being intimately familiar with how all the Star Wars technology works by taking it apart for salvage and maybe even using it herself over the years. But it's rather doubtful that she was able to learn telekinesis and telepathy while taking apart crashed ships or beating up street-toughs.

I, for one, hope that IX has her doing a lot of meditation and taking apart her inner demons by finding inner peace.

[The Romulan Republic]

A full reply to ray will have to wait, as I need to get to bed. But I'll just say to your post that there's a pretty consistent pattern with Rey's abilities: she excels at practical skills (including Force powers), has good instincts and is a basically decent person, but has very little academic or esoteric knowledge, and limited people skills. She doesn't know her galactic history, doesn't understand the Force. And she's not great at persuading or understanding others. Which is pretty realistic, given her upbringing.

She also does also have one big glaring gap in Force powers which I've repeatedly underlined- she has demonstrated no grasp whatsoever of combat telekinesis (seriously, watch the Snoke fight again, its like a cat playing with a particularly stubborn and brave mouse). There are also a number of rarer and more esoteric techniques she has never employed, as yet.

She does pick up powers very fast, and I do think she is implied to be an iteration of the Chosen One, which makes her an Anakin-peer (but not unambiguously stronger either). But there are still big gaps in her skill set.

[ray245]

I think the key issue is that in TFA, Rey learns Jedi mind tricks and lightsaber fighting at what seems as if out of nowhere, without anyone teaching them to her, and not seeming to be tapping into her force potential before the events of the film. It's presumed that Luke studied between films, and had enough primers from Obi Wan and Yoda, as well as Anakin getting years of instruction from Obi Wan and the other teachers at the Jedi temple. Rey.....just picks it up as if it's like learning how start a car engine. No instruction or accomplishing a new level of mental discipline, just the turning of the switch, and she can do it like anyone else.

I think that's why Rey's accomplishments feel a tad unearned.

Her combat capability can at least be explained as having grown up on Jakku, and having to deal with all the ruffians she would have encountered there. Her pilot training from being intimately familiar with how all the Star Wars technology works by taking it apart for salvage and maybe even using it herself over the years. But it's rather doubtful that she was able to learn telekinesis and telepathy while taking apart crashed ships or beating up street-toughs.

I, for one, hope that IX has her doing a lot of meditation and taking apart her inner demons by finding inner peace.

Exactly this. I think some defenders of Rey as a character kept ignoring this, which is frustrating.

A full reply to ray will have to wait, as I need to get to bed. But I'll just say to your post that there's a pretty consistent pattern with Rey's abilities: she excels at practical skills (including Force powers), has good instincts and is a basically decent person, but has very little academic or esoteric knowledge, and limited people skills. She doesn't know her galactic history, doesn't understand the Force. And she's not great at persuading or understanding others. Which is pretty realistic, given her upbringing.

The point is the force aren't practical skills. You said so yourself that the force isn't about learning a physical skill with training, but you brought this point up to defend Rey. The point is force abilities are inherently connected to spiritual knowledge, and at no point did we see Rey learn to develop her spiritual self.

Luke and Anakin's journeys were inherently spiritual journeys. It is about discovering the spiritual self in the form of embracing the light side, or the dark side of the force. Rey embraced the force, but in a physical sense rather than in a spiritual sense. If Rey was depicted as an inherently spiritual person from the get-go, I won't have too much issue with her characterisation. But I think JJ Abrams is one of the worse director you can have to direct a spiritual journey.

Seriously, look up how Buddhist monks approach the concept of Zen, and you'll see a great deal of similarities with how George Lucas depicts the Jedi Order.

She also does also have one big glaring gap in Force powers which I've repeatedly underlined- she has demonstrated no grasp whatsoever of combat telekinesis (seriously, watch the Snoke fight again, its like a cat playing with a particularly stubborn and brave mouse). There are also a number of rarer and more esoteric techniques she has never employed, as yet.

She does pick up powers very fast, and I do think she is implied to be an iteration of the Chosen One, which makes her an Anakin-peer (but not unambiguously stronger either). But there are still big gaps in her skill set.

It doesn't matter whether she have all the esoteric techniques. The point is that she mastered the common physical skills of being a Jedi in a manner that is disconnected from her spiritual journey and growth.

You keep talking about how we are too focus on the force as a tool, when you are making the exact same kind of approach with your arguments when it suited you. It feels like you are applying a double-standard in your arguments.

[Q99]

Observation: Rey is a Scavener
Spoiler

[NeoGoomba]

Rey, prying circuit boards out of the Death Star II main computer: "I'm gonna get so many muffins for this"

[Gandalf]

I think the key issue is that in TFA, Rey learns Jedi mind tricks and lightsaber fighting at what seems as if out of nowhere, without anyone teaching them to her, and not seeming to be tapping into her force potential before the events of the film. It's presumed that Luke studied between films, and had enough primers from Obi Wan and Yoda, as well as Anakin getting years of instruction from Obi Wan and the other teachers at the Jedi temple. Rey.....just picks it up as if it's like learning how start a car engine. No instruction or accomplishing a new level of mental discipline, just the turning of the switch, and she can do it like anyone else.

I think that's why Rey's accomplishments feel a tad unearned.

Her combat capability can at least be explained as having grown up on Jakku, and having to deal with all the ruffians she would have encountered there. Her pilot training from being intimately familiar with how all the Star Wars technology works by taking it apart for salvage and maybe even using it herself over the years. But it's rather doubtful that she was able to learn telekinesis and telepathy while taking apart crashed ships or beating up street-toughs.

I, for one, hope that IX has her doing a lot of meditation and taking apart her inner demons by finding inner peace.

Couldn't that just be explained as the Force guiding her actions (presumably towards an eventual fate to be determined)?

[FaxModem1]

Couldn't that just be explained as the Force guiding her actions (presumably towards an eventual fate to be determined)?

If they want to destroy the rules of the setting, sure. Before Rey, it's always seemed like one needed a certain level of mastery over the force, even when created by the force itself like Anakin, to do things like move rocks, mind trick people, see the future, etc to an extent that you weren't just an extraordinarily lucky pilot or gambler. Luke's key shot in ANH is, after all, focusing his timing to make a shot through the force, not immediately besting Vader in a battle of wills and showing that years of training are meaningless.

Same with how, even though Anakin can see things when tested by open Jedi masters who are broadcasting the image willingly, he can't interrogate Darth Maul against his will into giving them critical information. Or how he didn't mindtrick the Viceroy into shutting down the droids, he did do extraordinary feats of piloting to destroy the Trade Federation ship(and was severely lucky/will of the force).

Rey did that, on her first day, with no training whatsoever. Her lucking out and finding the right access junction or whatever to escape and reunite with her friends, will of the force. Her able to go against a supposed powerful and trained force user and both beat him at lightsabers and mind tricks seems unearned.

[ray245]

If they want to destroy the rules of the setting, sure. Before Rey, it's always seemed like one needed a certain level of mastery over the force, even when created by the force itself like Anakin, to do things like move rocks, mind trick people, see the future, etc to an extent that you weren't just an extraordinarily lucky pilot or gambler. Luke's key shot in ANH is, after all, focusing his timing to make a shot through the force, not immediately besting Vader in a battle of wills and showing that years of training are meaningless.

Same with how, even though Anakin can see things when tested by open Jedi masters who are broadcasting the image willingly, he can't interrogate Darth Maul against his will into giving them critical information. Or how he didn't mindtrick the Viceroy into shutting down the droids, he did do extraordinary feats of piloting to destroy the Trade Federation ship(and was severely lucky/will of the force).

Rey did that, on her first day, with no training whatsoever. Her lucking out and finding the right access junction or whatever to escape and reunite with her friends, will of the force. Her able to go against a supposed powerful and trained force user and both beat him at lightsabers and mind tricks seems unearned.

Even if the force skills does not require physical effort to master, they tend to be depicted as skills that requires patience and time. The more someone spent mediating, the more things they can learn about the force and etc.

The recent movies have spent far too much time focusing on the physical attributes of the force to my liking. By making it easy for Rey to gain access to the physical force abilities, it undermined his spiritual journey as a Jedi knight. One of the most problematic issue is Rey's danger of falling to the darkside is essentially handwaved away. Luke had to deal with the temptation of falling into the darkside, the fear of losing control over his anger. That was Luke's spiritual journey in the OT, and the journey that Anakin failed to master.

Rey on the other hand, is left with no spiritual journey to complete in EP 9, because she never quite embarked on that journey to begin with. Despite all the posters here who were talking assuredly about how EP 8 will allow Rey to develop and grow with training, EP 8 didn't really do that. There's bit of Rey learning some stuff from Luke, but I think a lot of it is mishandled.

The part where Luke told Rey not to jump into the darkside well? Well, unlike the cave scene in ESB, Rey jumping in had no negative consequences. It didn't pose a challenge to her in her path to become a Jedi, because she was in danger of falling into the darkside.

The lack of a clear and consistent vision between the directors had left Rey in a bit of an odd spot as a character. Her character arc ( if you can call it that) was completed in EP 8. People tried to tempt her away from staying on the path of light, they failed. She got the books she needed.

Having Rey developing as a Jedi based on texts is also a problematic approach towards approaching the depiction of the force as a Zen-like religion. The popular image of Zen Buddhism ( which is what Lucas seem to be drawing on), is one that de-emphasis the role of texts in favour of personal experiences as a path to enlightenment. And this is in part achieved by a strong master-student relationship, with the master guiding the student until they reach a stage of enlightenment for themselves. That has been how the Jedi order were depicted in the past 6 films, instead of a religion based on mastering specific texts.

If the path of the Jedi was to be something similar to Buddhist philosophy, the idea of achieving enlightenment, then I have to say Ep 7 and 8 failed to establish this journey for Rey. I think Ep 9 is far too late to kickstart the journey for her. I don't think we will have the cathartic moment for Rey when she claimed to be a Jedi or Skywalker, at least not for me. I will feel this is shoehorned in because they need and ending arc for Rey.

Daisy Ridley did well in the role she is given, but the problem for me is take away Ridley's charisma, Rey is severely underdeveloped as a character. The same can be said about Finn.

[FaxModem1]

True, 8 could have been what 5 was for Luke, seeing a vision of where their road could take them if they choose poorly. I would like to have seen Rey go through a spiritual journey, but it doesn't seem to really define her, or change her. Sadly, her character arc in 8 is sacrificed to show how Luke has fallen as a character.

As others have riffed, the force isn't about moving rocks, and yet Rey saves the day by moving rocks, showing that Luke was wrong.