Was Jasmine's offer worth the cost? (Angel)

[FaxModem1]

In season 4 of Angel, Jasmine is revealed to have been orchestrating a lot of events in the Buffy-verse to try and ensure that she could come to Earth, rule it, and bring in a new era of peace for humanity. All fights between peoples would have stopped, any demonic influences would have been wiped out by her followers, and there would be peace in our time.

Problem is, she eats people in order to sustain herself, daily. Is a few dozen, or maybe hundred, people dying daily worth billions of people living blissful lives wherein they're happy and content?

Team Angel deems that it's not worth the cost, but what is your opinion? Should mankind have bowed to the Power that Was and embraced her as ruler of Earth? Or is anything that eats people something that needs to be wiped out, no matter how good it might be in the long run?

[The Romulan Republic]

In season 4 of Angel, Jasmine is revealed to have been orchestrating a lot of events in the Buffy-verse to try and ensure that she could come to Earth, rule it, and bring in a new era of peace for humanity. All fights between peoples would have stopped, any demonic influences would have been wiped out by her followers, and there would be peace in our time.

Problem is, she eats people in order to sustain herself, daily. Is a few dozen, or maybe hundred, people dying daily worth billions of people living blissful lives wherein they're happy and content?

Team Angel deems that it's not worth the cost, but what is your opinion? Should mankind have bowed to the Power that Was and embraced her as ruler of Earth? Or is anything that eats people something that needs to be wiped out, no matter how good it might be in the long run?

Jasmine was so full of shit. It wasn't "just" eating a few people (ie thousands or millions over time, since she's an immortal)- she stripped humanity of its free will, and IIRC, she wanted the people to worship her. That's the really telling thing. She wasn't doing what she was doing out of necessity, for the greater good. She was doing it because she believed that she alone had the RIGHT to tell everyone what the greater good was. She showed that she was willing to sacrifice anyone and anything to get what she wanted, and the end result was that everyone would be united- in worship of her. How convenient for her, that the road to utopia is to make everyone her loving slaves.

Edit: Plus wasn't there a whole thing about her doing this to other worlds, and then getting tired of them and moving on, leaving them to fall into ruins? I reiterate- Jasmine is doing this for her, not for the worlds that she saves.

So yeah, if it was a clear cut "a few people a day for perpetual utopia, no other options, no other price"- then in purely utilitarian terms the answer is obvious. But its not that simple. It never is.

[Jub]

In season 4 of Angel, Jasmine is revealed to have been orchestrating a lot of events in the Buffy-verse to try and ensure that she could come to Earth, rule it, and bring in a new era of peace for humanity. All fights between peoples would have stopped, any demonic influences would have been wiped out by her followers, and there would be peace in our time.

Problem is, she eats people in order to sustain herself, daily. Is a few dozen, or maybe hundred, people dying daily worth billions of people living blissful lives wherein they're happy and content?

Team Angel deems that it's not worth the cost, but what is your opinion? Should mankind have bowed to the Power that Was and embraced her as ruler of Earth? Or is anything that eats people something that needs to be wiped out, no matter how good it might be in the long run?

There are 53 murders per day in the US alone and depending on how the logistics and her own preferences work out, we might be able to find enough terminal patients willing to meet their end for world peace to meet her needs anyway. So assuming she can actually be trusted to keep the peace, stick to her set tribute levels, and not assume further control it's a great trade. If the definition of peoples also applies to any potential extrasolar threat the deal becomes even better.

[The Romulan Republic]

She can't. She proved that so many times, so many ways. She was just another demonic overload wearing a prettier face.

[Jub]

She can't. She proved that so many times, so many ways. She was just another demonic overload wearing a prettier face.

In that case, you'd need to use a spell of binding to trap her to a strict wording with massive (preferably hidden) penalties for her breaking them. It's the Buffy universe so something like that should be possible if you can persuade her to sign it.

[The Romulan Republic]

Maybe, but it you'd probably need the world's best lawyer to word it, and a Willow-class caster to make it stick.

[FaxModem1]

Edit: Plus wasn't there a whole thing about her doing this to other worlds, and then getting tired of them and moving on, leaving them to fall into ruins? I reiterate- Jasmine is doing this for her, not for the worlds that she saves.

She did move on, but we're not sure if blood magic insect people dimension is their version of a dystopia or utopia, as that could have been the best damn blood magic insect people civilization that they could have built. Just that they really wanted her back, even after she had been gone for centuries.

[Jub]

Maybe, but it you'd probably need the world's best lawyer to word it, and a Willow-class caster to make it stick.

We have at least one of those things for sure and getting a team of extremely capable lawyers, possibly aided with some sort of loophole detecting spell or precognition, should also be something one could get. Of course, this being the Buffyverse we know that something would go horribly wrong no matter the intentions, level of preparation, and execution of such a plan.

[The Romulan Republic]

Maybe, but it you'd probably need the world's best lawyer to word it, and a Willow-class caster to make it stick.

We have at least one of those things for sure and getting a team of extremely capable lawyers, possibly aided with some sort of loophole detecting spell or precognition, should also be something one could get. Of course, this being the Buffyverse we know that something would go horribly wrong no matter the intentions, level of preparation, and execution of such a plan.

I doubt Willow would agree to it any more than team Angel did.

As to something inevitably going wrong, partly I suspect that's down to the nature of beings like Jasmine. IIRC, she's implied to be one of the Old Ones- and they are capital-I Immortal. As in, they literally cannot die. Not "they don't age". Not "it takes some special weapon to kill them." They. Do. Not. Die. Not permanently. Kill one, and it will find a way to come back into existence. Always. At best, you get a respite.

Something like Jasmine, you put a spell on it constraining it, and it has eternity to think of ways to break free and go on a rampage. Unless you try and reform it, like with Illyria in season five.

The other problem with Jasmine is that anyone who sees her falls fanatically in love with her. So how do you negotiate with someone who's whole schtick is mind warping you, and how do you trust them to keep any deal you make? Once you sign on with Jasmine (willingly or not), you are stuck with her.

On a side note, I've often pondered options for killing Jasmine in a Buffy SI/RAR-type scenario, and I've noticed her weaknesses seem to include:

a) She has to be seen to brain-warp you.

b) It doesn't seem to work on vampires and demons, but it does work on Angel, which suggests it only works on beings with souls.

Ergo, the logical counters would be a) a blind psychic assassin. Funnily enough, Wolfram and Hart had one of those in season one. Its pretty much my head canon that they were keeping her on the pay roll to counter Jasmine, or someone like her.

b) A soulless entity. Soulless Spike would have been an option, or for more reliability but less initiative, a robot (advanced humanoid robots are of course a thing in the Buffyverse).

If you did want to try to deal with her, well, those are two possible forms of "insurance".

[Jub]

On a side note, I've often pondered options for killing Jasmine in a Buffy SI/RAR-type scenario, and I've noticed her weaknesses seem to include:

a) She has to be seen to brain-warp you.

b) It doesn't seem to work on vampires and demons, but it does work on Angel, which suggests it only works on beings with souls.

Ergo, the logical counters would be a) a blind psychic assassin. Funnily enough, Wolfram and Hart had one of those in season one. Its pretty much my head canon that they were keeping her on the pay roll to counter Jasmine, or someone like her.

b) A soulless entity. Soulless Spike would have been an option, or for more reliability but less initiative, a robot (advanced humanoid robots are of course a thing in the Buffyverse).

If you did want to try to deal with her, well, those are two possible forms of "insurance".

I wonder if dropping her down a deep ass gravity well, like say the Sun, would work on beings like Jasmine? If it does you could even form a barrier made up of specially blessed or otherwise warded components of a Dyson swarm for extra security.

Eventually, the Sun goes boom and she might escape at that stage but we might be far flung across the stars by then. Too powerful and numerous for even her to effectively exact revenge upon.

[The Romulan Republic]

From what I recall of the Buffy comics- dumping her in the Sun would kill her, but she'd respawn somewhere else before long. Like, there was a plot where they killed the Old One who first spawned the vampires, and then later Dracula got his hands on the book of magic and tried to write into it that he was the most powerful vampire in the world, and then he started transforming into the afforementioned Old One, because it was the most powerful vampire in the world.

Basically, they can "die" temporarily, but if the universe gives them the slightest opening, the smallest loophole, they'll worm their way back into existence.

Edit: Which is why you need somewhere that can hold them without killing them. In canon, this is the Deeper Well. As I recall, there's a bunch of Old Ones held in some sort of stasis or something in there. So they're alive, but inactive, and kept in one place. And if they do get out, you'll at least get a heads up because there will be a missing Old One.

[FaxModem1]

Almost makes you wonder if Jasmine and the First had some sort of gentleman's agreement regarding who could rule over California, as Los Angeles was suddenly covered in darkness, and the First was, in Sunnydale, recruiting the vampiric cavemen army. One wonders if they were about to see who the winner would be if an army of devoted humans dedicated to wiping out all demons, and an army of Turok-han were about to square off for the fate of humanity. And they would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for those those meddling kids.

[The Romulan Republic]

Almost makes you wonder if Jasmine and the First had some sort of gentleman's agreement regarding who could rule over California, as Los Angeles was suddenly covered in darkness, and the First was, in Sunnydale, recruiting the vampiric cavemen army. One wonders if they were about to see who the winner would be if an army of devoted humans dedicated to wiping out all demons, and an army of Turok-han were about to square off for the fate of humanity. And they would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for those those meddling kids.

I don't think it can be a coincidence that two immortal entities, one representing pure destructive evil, the other evil in the mask of order and the greater good, made their moves in almost the same place at almost the same time after God knows how long plotting in the shadows.

I think it more likely, though, that they were moving to counter each other, and that had each proven victorious in their respective battles, they would then have waged war on the other. While possibly using the others' activities to keep their opposition divided (if that was the plan, it failed miserably, as, Jasmine's plots brought Willow to LA, and then Faith back with her to Sunnydale).

[FaxModem1]

Almost makes you wonder if Jasmine and the First had some sort of gentleman's agreement regarding who could rule over California, as Los Angeles was suddenly covered in darkness, and the First was, in Sunnydale, recruiting the vampiric cavemen army. One wonders if they were about to see who the winner would be if an army of devoted humans dedicated to wiping out all demons, and an army of Turok-han were about to square off for the fate of humanity. And they would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for those those meddling kids.

I don't think it can be a coincidence that two immortal entities, one representing pure destructive evil, the other evil in the mask of order and the greater good, made their moves in almost the same place at almost the same time after God knows how long plotting in the shadows.

I think it more likely, though, that they were moving to counter each other, and that had each proven victorious in their respective battles, they would then have waged war on the other. While possibly using the others' activities to keep their opposition divided (if that was the plan, it failed miserably, as, Jasmine's plots brought Willow to LA, and then Faith back with her to Sunnydale).

I've always had the headcanon that Connor's vision of Darla was the First Evil trying to sabotage Jasmine before she emerged, as whether they were competing against each other, or there was a planned face-off, it didn't want her to emerge. Same reason why WH&R gave Angel the means to destroy the First's forces in Sunnydale. For whatever reason, the forces of evil don't cooperate.

[The Romulan Republic]

Almost makes you wonder if Jasmine and the First had some sort of gentleman's agreement regarding who could rule over California, as Los Angeles was suddenly covered in darkness, and the First was, in Sunnydale, recruiting the vampiric cavemen army. One wonders if they were about to see who the winner would be if an army of devoted humans dedicated to wiping out all demons, and an army of Turok-han were about to square off for the fate of humanity. And they would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for those those meddling kids.

I don't think it can be a coincidence that two immortal entities, one representing pure destructive evil, the other evil in the mask of order and the greater good, made their moves in almost the same place at almost the same time after God knows how long plotting in the shadows.

I think it more likely, though, that they were moving to counter each other, and that had each proven victorious in their respective battles, they would then have waged war on the other. While possibly using the others' activities to keep their opposition divided (if that was the plan, it failed miserably, as, Jasmine's plots brought Willow to LA, and then Faith back with her to Sunnydale).

I've always had the headcanon that Connor's vision of Darla was the First Evil trying to sabotage Jasmine before she emerged, as whether they were competing against each other, or there was a planned face-off, it didn't want her to emerge. Same reason why WH&R gave Angel the means to destroy the First's forces in Sunnydale. For whatever reason, the forces of evil don't cooperate.

A lot of people think that, but I like to believe that it was Darla.

On the flip side, I have a theory that W and H actually was behind Buffy being expelled and transferring to Sunnydale in the first place- they wanted her away from their LA clients and killing the competition instead.

[PREDATOR490]

Jasmine was never going to be good in the context she was given.

W&H - They have been shown to exist in multiple dimensions and the senior partners have been in play since the old ones were kicking around. They clearly have a fantastic amount of assets sitting in their vaults, including trinkets that can apparently take out their competitors like the First.
Even if Jasmine was 100% genuine and could be taken at face value... it stands to reason that elements like W&H would have contingencies in place to survive or knock her out if need be.

If Jasmine is an old one, an entire well of the things exists through the centre of the planet. They can clearly be knocked out at least temporarily and W&H seem to have taken measures to ensure that if the Deep Ones come back, they still have a distinct advantage.
Illyeria came back to try and take over the world only to find out that her sleeping army had been wrecked. The implication was it was W&H that did it.

At the very least, I suspect that W&H would put up a fight against Jasmine resulting in a war that could be severely costly for the world.

This does not include other elements that could equally rally against Jasmine to fight, even if it is a losing proposition. Jasmine is going to take over the world and supposedly kill all opposition, that backs every one of her targets into a corner where they have to fight for survival.

If Jasmine is content with sacrificing a few to save the many... where is the cut off if W&H start throwing their considerable amount of assets into an all out war ?
In theory, Jasmine could make a deal with such elements by offering to let W&H do their own thing because it saves more lives than going to all out war.
In which case, how is that really any different than the status quo before ?

At best Jasmine can use her magic mind control to unify the world around a singular vision but... we never really saw what she would do with that vision. The previous example of her work came from another dimension that would not be appealing to Earth.

Jasmine - The only thing that Jasmine does better than the rest is presenting a better public image down to literally covering up her face and mind controlling people. The surrounding evidence of her behaviour and action make it fairly clear she is extremely manipulative and willing to step on anyone to get her way. Jasmine literally gutted and manipulated entire events to get her way or is a liar of epic proportions.

Either way, this is not the kind of individual that seems like a good idea to give world domination to based on her actions and behaviour.

[The Romulan Republic]

Jasmine was never going to be good in the context she was given.

W&H - They have been shown to exist in multiple dimensions and the senior partners have been in play since the old ones were kicking around. They clearly have a fantastic amount of assets sitting in their vaults, including trinkets that can apparently take out their competitors like the First.
Even if Jasmine was 100% genuine and could be taken at face value... it stands to reason that elements like W&H would have contingencies in place to survive or knock her out if need be.

If Jasmine is an old one, an entire well of the things exists through the centre of the planet. They can clearly be knocked out at least temporarily and W&H seem to have taken measures to ensure that if the Deep Ones come back, they still have a distinct advantage.
Illyeria came back to try and take over the world only to find out that her sleeping army had been wrecked. The implication was it was W&H that did it.

At the very least, I suspect that W&H would put up a fight against Jasmine resulting in a war that could be severely costly for the world.

In point of fact, the Wolf, the Ram, and the Hart are also Old Ones, peers of Jasmine's.

This does not include other elements that could equally rally against Jasmine to fight, even if it is a losing proposition. Jasmine is going to take over the world and supposedly kill all opposition, that backs every one of her targets into a corner where they have to fight for survival.

Considering she was waging a campaign of extermination against vampires (and other supernatural predators?) whom she couldn't control... yeah, its only a matter of time before they form an alliance against her (probably backed up by extra-dimensional Wolfram and Hart assets). Not to mention the coming war with the First Evil.

Heck, Jasmine would probably drive any soulless supernatural entity who was still on the fence into the First's arms.

If Jasmine is content with sacrificing a few to save the many... where is the cut off if W&H start throwing their considerable amount of assets into an all out war ?
In theory, Jasmine could make a deal with such elements by offering to let W&H do their own thing because it saves more lives than going to all out war.
In which case, how is that really any different than the status quo before ?

At best Jasmine can use her magic mind control to unify the world around a singular vision but... we never really saw what she would do with that vision. The previous example of her work came from another dimension that would not be appealing to Earth.

Pretty much, yes.

Jasmine - The only thing that Jasmine does better than the rest is presenting a better public image down to literally covering up her face and mind controlling people. The surrounding evidence of her behaviour and action make it fairly clear she is extremely manipulative and willing to step on anyone to get her way. Jasmine literally gutted and manipulated entire events to get her way or is a liar of epic proportions.

Either way, this is not the kind of individual that seems like a good idea to give world domination to based on her actions and behaviour.

Yup. Its like given absolute power to an immortal, super-powered Trump.

[Solauren]

Jasmine's offer, as discussed, was not worth it.

However, if part of it was that all other high level entities (the First, the Old Ones, etc), withdrew of their on volition, and there could be a magically enforceable contract in place concerning her behavior, then Possibly, if Unlikely.

[The Romulan Republic]

Get innumerable Always Chaotic Evil god-tier entitites that view humanity as vermin to agree to such a compact, and not try to cheat on it? Fat chance.

[FireNexus]

Jasmine wasn’t an Old One. She was one of The Powers That Be who either got kicked to the curb or left to go play God in lower realms. Whether that makes her the same kind of thing as the old ones is an open question, however.

[PREDATOR490]

I am not sure Wolfram and Hart are Old Ones either.

Illyria: “The Wolf, Ram, and Hart? In my time they were weak, barely above the vampire.”

They were clearly around during her time but not on that level. The reality is we have not actually seen an Old One at full nor have we actually seen the senior partners.
They might have beefed up to becoming as powerful as Old Ones or they could be as weak as they always were. They just played a better game by accumulating a significant amount of resources and neutering their rivals.

The other issue is that we only have a single Old One as reference. Are they all the same, are some more powerful than others and is there some sort of scale system in place ?

Regardless, Jasmine was obviously a liar and manipulator.
Making a bargain or deal with her would never work. Angel tried that and she had no interest.

Any being that can bring Jasmine to the table is going to be as dangerous or more dangerous to the point that doing it is a bad idea.
Even Willow is a bad idea since she is quite vulnerable to Jasmine either directly through mind control or getting taken out by Jasmine's mind controlled flunkies.

[The Romulan Republic]

Jasmine wasn’t an Old One. She was one of The Powers That Be who either got kicked to the curb or left to go play God in lower realms. Whether that makes her the same kind of thing as the old ones is an open question, however.

IIRC, it was said somewhere that the Powers That Be/Old Ones were basically two sides of the same coin, with the Old Ones being the "chaotic" half and the PTBs being the half dedicated to balance/order. Though I'm not sure of the source or its credibility. The one thing we do know is that the PTBs are pretty much just as much a bunch of dicks as the Old Ones- they just hide it behind a veneer of "the greater good".

I don't think Jasmine is all that different from the rest of them, really, accept that she was (maybe) running an independent operation.

I am not sure Wolfram and Hart are Old Ones either.

Illyria: “The Wolf, Ram, and Hart? In my time they were weak, barely above the vampire.”

They were clearly around during her time but not on that level. The reality is we have not actually seen an Old One at full nor have we actually seen the senior partners.
They might have beefed up to becoming as powerful as Old Ones or they could be as weak as they always were. They just played a better game by accumulating a significant amount of resources and neutering their rivals.

Fair point. In fact, there's some fairly circumstantial evidence that they are weaker than Illyria even now. In season two, Wolfram and Hart gathers to meet with a being that is said to be a Senior Partner (though I believe the form it takes was said not to be its true one?). IIRC, while Illyria was able to travel between dimensions under her own power, the Senior Partner (if that's what it was) had to use a magic ring to enable trans-dimensional travel.

The only real indication of them having greater personal power than the average demon is in the finale, when Angel is getting his ass kicked by Hamilton, who says that the power of the Senior Partners flows through his blood or something. When Angel drinks his blood, he is then able to kick Hamilton's ass. But Hamilton wasn't that strong- like, maybe Captain America strong, but not Superman strong.

The other issue is that we only have a single Old One as reference. Are they all the same, are some more powerful than others and is there some sort of scale system in place ?

We get some more in the Buffy comics. As mentioned above, at one point they deal with the Old One who spawned the first vampire.

Fairly certain Illyria was said to be exceptional even among Old Ones, though. Her/his title (presuming it wasn't just empty self-agrandization) was God-King of the Primordium.

Regardless, Jasmine was obviously a liar and manipulator.
Making a bargain or deal with her would never work. Angel tried that and she had no interest.

Any being that can bring Jasmine to the table is going to be as dangerous or more dangerous to the point that doing it is a bad idea.
Even Willow is a bad idea since she is quite vulnerable to Jasmine either directly through mind control or getting taken out by Jasmine's mind controlled flunkies.

Yeah, put Willow anywhere with line of sight to Jasmine (or even an image of her) and the most likely outcome is that Jasmine has a new super-powered puppet.

I already outlined the possible ways of dealing with her: blind psychic assassin, robot assassin, or soulless assassin. And you'll note that the common theme of all those methods is "assassin".

That or shove her in the Deeper Well, if you have a means of getting her there in the first place. That's probably the best outcome, if you can manage it.

[B5B7]

Angel is as strong as Buffy who is as strong as Captain America, so Hamilton was much stronger.
It takes more than an assassin to kill Jasmine. Firstly, Angel had to confront her with a head that uttered her true name, and even then she could only be killed by Connor (her "father"). So there are very special conditions required to kill a corporeal PTB.

[The Romulan Republic]

Angel is as strong as Buffy who is as strong as Captain America, so Hamilton was much stronger.

I don't know. I don't think we've ever seen Buffy do something on the level of holding a helicopter in place as its trying to take off. Or stopping a punch from Thanos, for that matter. Would be interesting to try to quantify it though.

It takes more than an assassin to kill Jasmine. Firstly, Angel had to confront her with a head that uttered her true name, and even then she could only be killed by Connor (her "father"). So there are very special conditions required to kill a corporeal PTB.

Was it that only Connor was capable of killing her for mystical reasons, or simply that he was the one who managed to land the killing blow? I honestly don't recall.

I don't believe the head was needed to kill her, though- just to expose her/break her mind control spell. At least to the best of my recollection.

[FireNexus]

IIRC, while Illyria was able to travel between dimensions under her own power, the Senior Partner (if that's what it was) had to use a magic ring to enable trans-dimensional travel.

I don’t know that that was about power, necessarily. Remember that, unlike Illyria, the senior partners were alive on earth when pure demons were banished, rather than trapped as a semi-corpse in the deeper well. The method of travel might have been necessitated by the fact that they simply aren’t allowed to manifest as themselves here.