Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

[Crazedwraith]

Well no spoilers just yet anyway.

Going to see this tonight. Some places have it already.

[Gandalf]

Saw it a few days ago. It's a fun mess of a film.

I liked the BTTF2 of it all, as the film sort of served as a tribute to previous films. That said, their time travel was a bit all over the place.

At least Iron Man is finally dead.

[Crazedwraith]

It was epic.

I have some quibbles about the end of certain character arcs. Namely Black Widow and Captain America and hulk.

Plus they were really promoting Captain Marvel, it doesn't ruin it but it was more noticable than I'd like.

But it really was epic and had every moment you expevt and more.

[Gandalf]

I think they finally worked out that there's not many places to take Black Widow's character, so having her sacrifice herself so that Hawkeye could live at least sort of makes sense.

Also, Hawkeye being Punisher seemed really cool as an idea.

[Crazedwraith]

Also the MCU is still going to be really messed with half the people aging five-years of grief and the other half experiencing death and resurrection.

I'm doubting Far From Home will address this.

[Gandalf]

Yeah, I assumed that with Iron Man's sacrifice, the previous five years would be reset for all of those who weren't near thr big battle. That way Iron Man's family survived, but the rest of the world remains near enough to ours for it to be relatable. But this is really huge in implication.

They didn't bring back Vision.

[Crazedwraith]

Isn't there a Vision & The Scarlet Witch film planned? I was surprised they didn't repair him with a stone replacement.

The number of returns and cameos were amazing. I didn't expect things like Thor's Mum or Robert Redford in flashback.

And the Captain Merica hail hydra reference!

[Gandalf]

Yeah, the cameos were awesome, especially the Ancient One.

Also, Vision has presumably now been a corpse for some five years. Maybe Shuri can rebuild him for the WandaVision spin off?

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I too was disappointed Vision didn't make a return- Infinity War certainly did indicate he could have survived without the Mind Stone, if anyone had a chance at rebuilding him, it would have been the Wakandans with their unique insight into vibranium and five years to do it. I see they also didn't repair Rhodey's spinal injuries even though they have demonstrated the capability to do exactly that with Ross in Black Panther.

It was no surprise that Tony Stark was the one to sacrifice himself, it was just a matter of how it would happen- what was surprising was how they wrote out Captain America, even though we knew it was his last film. And it was awesome that he was the one to lift the hammer. And Thanos' weapon had to have been made out of vibranium for it to damage cap's shield the way it did (and proving Stark's vision in AoU correct).

[RogueIce]

Time travel is always a mess. I'm just going to live with it because Cap's ending was so great.

I suppose they gave themselves an excuse to bring back Loki, though. Evil Loki, naturally.

Loved it. They gave the Original Avengers a retirement/death so the New Avengers can take over. It was all handled well, IMO.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

That, plus the X-men will become part of the MCU after Dark Phoenix (trailer for which was on before Endgame).

Pretty sure Loki is dead since Thanos killed him before the finger snap.

Something one of my friends pointed out is, how did past!Nebula manage to use the Time Machine to bring Thanos and his army to the present? The sheer size of the ship is one problem, the lack of a "temporal GPS" is another. The latter could be explained by the bad guys managing to pull Nebula's memory to find out how the device worked and building their own, the former though I have no idea.

[Crazedwraith]

Did they steal current day Nebula's time GPS when they captured her? As for the ship, pym particles are involved, it got shrunk down and spit out a high speed still growing.

Loki wasn't done in/undone by the snaps but a version of him escaped in the botched 2012 mission. So there's a loophole there that means he could maybe find his way to the current day MCU in his series or whatever.

I heard Sam!Cap was getting a series rather than a movie as well?

[streetad]

I enjoyed it - as mentioned the time travel was a mess but I can forgive it.

Not undoing the five year time jump was surprising. Won't half of Peter's high school class have long graduated by now? I assume all of the important characters (Flash, MJ etc) all got snapped if it is ever even mentioned. There are also going to be tonnes of people with explaining to do about how they moved on and got remarried etc.

The part with all the women together was super jarring and on the nose to the point of irritation.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Past!Nebula took the time GPS from Future!Nebula and used it to return to the same time as the others; not heard about SamCap or Loki, but I have heard there's going to be a WandaVision series as part of their Disney+ lineup.

The five year time jump is going to raise some interesting questions regarding Agents of Shield and which time it's set in, because a lot can happen in that time there's plenty of potential stories to be had. The next season could be set over the course of those five years so that by the time the last episode rolls around the series and films have (re)synchronised. Considering that the last ep was seriously flawed, with Quake defeating Talbot almost instantly and Leo Fitz getting a lame death, they really need to get this one right.

[Vendetta]

Something one of my friends pointed out is, how did past!Nebula manage to use the Time Machine to bring Thanos and his army to the present? The sheer size of the ship is one problem, the lack of a "temporal GPS" is another. The latter could be explained by the bad guys managing to pull Nebula's memory to find out how the device worked and building their own, the former though I have no idea.

Same way they took their ships to the past. Shrank it with the Pym Particles.

[ray245]

Endgame is a movie made for the fans. And it doesn't shy away from that. Some casual movie-goers will be alienated by the story and emotional beats, and find some of the logic of the film to be particularly troubling, but this movie doesn't shy away from the fact that it is meant to be a fan-service movie, a tv series finale for long time fans.

[Nari]

It was fun, but it was also a bit of a mess.

I wasn't taken with the conceit that the place has gone to ruin 5 years after Thanos. We see what is presumably an abandoned stadium in decay and apparently no-one even cleans up the trash (or crashed vehicles), based on Ant Man's short wander down a street where people still appear to live. We have historical records of cities being destroyed (with attendant wide spread deaths) and people cleaned up and rebuilt. Abandoned homes? Sure. Trash everywhere and evidence of people just disappearing mid-something like driving? Less sold on that.

I have no problems with the Avengers being morose after losing, but the general population?

And as others noted above; the half the population having lived 5 years that the other half didn't seems problematic. It's all well and good if you didn't move on for all that time, but what if you did?

[Mlenk]

The part with all the women together was super jarring and on the nose to the point of irritation.

That part irritated me too but not necessarily because of all the women grouping together but because of the logical inconsistency of it. Captain Marvel had just singlehandedly taken out Thanos’s flagship while tanking all the firepower of said ship that was brought to bear against her. Why oh why would she need the protection and help of all those other women to bring the stones and gauntlet to Ant Man’s van?

[AniThyng]

Or what if you were brought back and found your loved ones died in the chaos...

[streetad]

The part with all the women together was super jarring and on the nose to the point of irritation.

That part irritated me too but not necessarily because of all the women grouping together but because of the logical inconsistency of it. Captain Marvel had just singlehandedly taken out Thanos’s flagship while tanking all the firepower of said ship that was brought to bear against her. Why oh why would she need the protection and help of all those other women to bring the stones and gauntlet to Ant Man’s van?

True, she absolutely didn't need anyone's help.

The whole scene to me seemed to be some kind of studio mandated 'see, we actually have LOADS of female characters, stop complaining' moment. It was inorganic and jarring.

[Vendetta]

It's a tease for A-Force and a nice way to trigger the snowflakes.

Guess that latter worked, eh?

(It's not really A-Force without She-Hulk though).

[mr friendly guy]

That part irritated me too but not necessarily because of all the women grouping together but because of the logical inconsistency of it. Captain Marvel had just singlehandedly taken out Thanos’s flagship while tanking all the firepower of said ship that was brought to bear against her. Why oh why would she need the protection and help of all those other women to bring the stones and gauntlet to Ant Man’s van?

Well Thanos did knock her out of her flight path and caused her to drop the gauntlet by throwing his weapon at her. So if one of the other women manage to intercept it, it would certainly have helped.
---------------------------------------
My verdict, it was fan service done well. This includes

Showing all the characters for a big battle with Thanos forces.

Thor wielding both Stormbreaker and Mjolnir.

Cap wielding Mjolnir (in the comics he was worthy enough to pick up Mjolnir).

Cap getting to live his life in the 50s.

Iron Man getting a great send off. Thanos says "I am inevitable," only for Stark to say "I am Iron Man."

Cap's "Hail hydra," line, which was from the comic, albeit an unpopular storyline. He managed to turn it into a line which wasn't vomit inducing.

Sam becoming the new Captain America.

It's a tease for A-Force and a nice way to trigger the snowflakes.

Guess that latter worked, eh?

(It's not really A-Force without She-Hulk though).

The right wing snowflakes were already saying how the plot was supposed to have Captain Marvel soloing Thanos and that would suck. Unfortunately for them, it didn't happen. Carol had some nice moments, but it was largely a team effort to take down Thanos. As it should. For ages in the introduction to Avengers, the team was described as "To combat those threats which no single hero can stand against. Earth's mightiest heroes have forged a convenant to unite in battle for the protection of all mankind." That's what makes the Avengers.

[Crazedwraith]

To follow up on what I initially said about CM, I think Mlenk has the right of it. The scene was a bit undermined by the fact that CM clearly doesn't need the backup at that point. I don't have a problem with CM being powerful I think (and I hope it's not a sexism thing but we have unsconscious biases I guess) but with her early extreme gung-ho-ness ans the comments on her needing to work in the team, it felt like she should have been on a small character arc to learn that she does need to rest of the team but... she wasn't. It's an important part of a team movie to establish they do need a team (Why Supes hangs with the JL) it doesn't have to be her being rescued in combat but it has to be something.

It would be hard to call her stealing the movie. She's only in what three or four bits briefly. She's a similar status as BP in IW less than Strange but she does have a big impact because of her power level. She rescues Tony which is her big contribution. She takes part in a Pyrrhic victory. In the final battle she scrapes the mothership of them but then flubs the gauntlet delivery, engages Thanos on a much more level playing field than anyone but is beaten.

Basically it's all fine but the emphasis could have been tweaked a little.

-

As to Cap, it rubbed me the wrong way, not only does him reappearing as an old man seem to break the rules of the setting (if you go back in time a new timeline is created so old cap would not appear in the original timeline) but although it gives him a nice reward it breaks his whole 'you have to move on thing' apparently he doesn't have to at all. I would have preferred for him to just actually retire for real. Maybe have a limb blown off ala MC2 Spidey if you really want to have him incapable of superheroics anymore. (I mean I know Chris Evans officially retired from the role but I gues I'd still like the possibility of him cameoing to mentor Sam!Cap.)

eta: He must have stayed in the 70s when dropping off the cube rather than returning to right when he was frozen. Otherwise he would have died of old age before reaching 2023 again.

[Vendetta]

eta: He must have stayed in the 70s when dropping off the cube rather than returning to right when he was frozen. Otherwise he would have died of old age before reaching 2023 again.

I think it's pretty clear at the end that he returns to the late '40s/early '50s.

Being pumped full of Super Soldier Serum means he's holding up better than a man of a hundred and five or so normally would.

[Crazedwraith]

I think they finally worked out that there's not many places to take Black Widow's character, so having her sacrifice herself so that Hawkeye could live at least sort of makes sense.

Also, Hawkeye being Punisher seemed really cool as an idea.

Oh btw after reading some other reactions and given our conversation about AoU the other week, do you think this is supposed to reinforced the idea BW's life is worth less than Clint's because she's infertile and has no family?

I mean, Clint obviously didn't think so but how the movie turned out...

I think it's pretty clear at the end that he returns to the late '40s/early '50s.

Being pumped full of Super Soldier Serum means he's holding up better than a man of a hundred and five or so normally would.

Possibly. Just from the scene setting at the end?

Considering Bruce as setting the time jumps from the console and the 40s/50s weren't one of the destinations, Steve would have had to reprogram his bracelet for an additional jump himself rather than just ditching the gps but I guess we do see that's possible with the original jump to the 70s.