EP 9 teaser trailer

[Gandalf]

One helps you access the Force, while the other helps you hone and perfect your relationship with it.

[FaxModem1]

One helps you access the Force, while the other helps you hone and perfect your relationship with it.

Rey doesn't need that. She just can.

[ray245]

One helps you access the Force, while the other helps you hone and perfect your relationship with it.

Except Rey is so good at it without learning things like mediation, that it makes it fairly pointless of her. She is prone on using dark side emotions, but she is somehow able to avoid falling into it like Anakin and Luke (to an extend).

From a narrative POV, she doesn't need to "perfect" her relationship with the force. Sure, she might gain access to nice force abilities on top of what she had, but those are just power-ups.

[NecronLord]

People really need to look past the fact that Rey is a prodigy if they think she's in tune with the will of the force. She rarely knows how to act and is improvising at all times. She's nowhere near as confident in her abilities as say, Qui Gon Jinn or Anakin in the prequels; the force is with her, but she is not a jedi yet.

Her powers are just flashier because that's simply how the movies have come to be made, big woop, she can pick things up quick and lift rocks; consider it the removal of the shroud of the dark side that was hamstringing the jedi in all other six movies and move on. She is in no way fully developed yet.

[The Romulan Republic]

People really need to look past the fact that Rey is a prodigy if they think she's in tune with the will of the force. She rarely knows how to act and is improvising at all times. She's nowhere near as confident in her abilities as say, Qui Gon Jinn or Anakin in the prequels; the force is with her, but she is not a jedi yet.

Her powers are just flashier because that's simply how the movies have come to be made, big woop, she can pick things up quick and lift rocks; consider it the removal of the shroud of the dark side that was hamstringing the jedi in all other six movies and move on. She is in no way fully developed yet.

I tried pointing out repeatedly that she made mistakes and failed in her goals again and again in TLJ. Much good it did...

And yeah, that's a really good point about her potentially growing up free of the Shroud of the Dark Side.

[NecronLord]

She is literally the first Jedi we've seen develop without the smothering influence of Palpatine everywhere. Of course the Disney secondary media imply that Luke wasn't, but we all know what secondary media/EU etc is actually worth.

If anyone thinks that if say, Lucasfilm makes a 2022 film about say, Young Revan, he's going to be as faltering as Luke was, they're high. They're not making the force easier for Rey because they want to make her supremely special compared to other force users, they're making it easier for her because they want to show their audience excitement and verve they've not seen in other films. Having her be like Luke, and take until film two to be able to pick up a lightsaber is not likely.

[Vendetta]

Also Rey is primed to believe in the Force.

In the period between the fall of the Jedi and the Rebellion, the Empire had done all it could to remove the idea of the Jedi and the Force. To people who grew up in that period it was just some hokey religion. That was Luke's biggest obstacle in his training with Yoda, that he didn't believe that, eg. to the Force a tiny pebble and a starfighter are the same.

But Rey grew up in an era where a lone Jedi walked into the Emperor's throne room and the Empire fell, and that if that one Jedi came back then all the problems would be fixed.

Her conception of the Force itself is that it's vast and powerful, and her journey over the first two movies is realising that she's the one that's going to have to use it. So she doesn't have to break down the same barriers as Luke did, but she has basically no wisdom to choose what to do with it, so she just tries the thing that worked for Luke and it doesn't work for her because she doesn't really understand yet.

[ray245]

People really need to look past the fact that Rey is a prodigy if they think she's in tune with the will of the force. She rarely knows how to act and is improvising at all times. She's nowhere near as confident in her abilities as say, Qui Gon Jinn or Anakin in the prequels; the force is with her, but she is not a jedi yet.

Her powers are just flashier because that's simply how the movies have come to be made, big woop, she can pick things up quick and lift rocks; consider it the removal of the shroud of the dark side that was hamstringing the jedi in all other six movies and move on. She is in no way fully developed yet.

Because a number of us see those flaws as being inconsequential within the narrative of the movies. Yes, she has flaws, but if those flaws doesn't affect her character development as part of the wider narrative, then simply pointing out those flaws does not mean anything in the bigger picture.

Rey is a well written character on paper, if she was just a character development sheet highlighting her strengths and weakness. But she is not well written in execution.

[Vendetta]

Yes, she has flaws, but if those flaws doesn't affect her character development as part of the wider narrative, then simply pointing out those flaws does not mean anything in the bigger picture.

What would you consider an example of a flaw which would have affected her character development as part of the wider narrative?

[FaxModem1]

She is literally the first Jedi we've seen develop without the smothering influence of Palpatine everywhere. Of course the Disney secondary media imply that Luke wasn't, but we all know what secondary media/EU etc is actually worth.

If anyone thinks that if say, Lucasfilm makes a 2022 film about say, Young Revan, he's going to be as faltering as Luke was, they're high. They're not making the force easier for Rey because they want to make her supremely special compared to other force users, they're making it easier for her because they want to show their audience excitement and verve they've not seen in other films. Having her be like Luke, and take until film two to be able to pick up a lightsaber is not likely.

Rey doesn't need to take two films to pick up a lightsaber. I don't think anyone is arguing that she NEEDS to follow the exact same path as Luke. Only that she has to have a path to follow that shows her development aside from, "Oh, that's a thing? Okay, I just mastered it, give me 500XP so that I can put points into Mind Trick."

What we're wanting to see is the character growing, whether spiritually, in maturity, or some combination of the two, not just in strength. I don't need to see Rey falter about the idea of "Size Matters Not", I do need to see how using the force impacts her as a person, and how she grows because of it. Problem is, her screentime was dedicated to Luke's character growth, not her own, and we just know that anything force related for her is to press the easy button and master it, while not showing the narrative consequences of that.

[ray245]

What would you consider an example of a flaw which would have affected her character development as part of the wider narrative?

See Faxmodem1's post.

Does Rey's flaws hamper her ability to build relationships? Does it hinder her from embarking on a path of becoming a hero?

The hero's journey is about how a character develop as a heroic figure, giving us an idea of what kind of hero she will become by the end of the journey and how she differs from her self at the start of the journey.

A cowardly person? Then the person's journey is about how they overcome that flaw and become a braver person by the end of the journey. We will see how the character's cowardness affected the journey with multiple setbacks.

An arrogant hero? Then that journey will be about how the character learn to overcome his selfishness and become more caring for others.

A hero with issues of trust? Then the journey is about learning how to work together with others to win or save the day.

Now, if we got a story with Rey falling to the darkside and joining Kylo Ren, I will be more interested in her as a character because I can see how her flaws can affect her in a way that have dramatic consequences.

The flaws need to intersect with Rey's spiritual journey as a Jedi, otherwise there is no point in making her a force user. If her flaws have nothing to do with her growing as a Jedi, then those flaws are wasted and inconsequential to the main narrative.

The question the writers need to answer is why should Rey be a Jedi knight. What does being a Jedi knight mean for Rey as a character beyond it's cool to be a Jedi knight. The failure to answer that question is why many people don't find Rey's journey to be unsatisfying by Ep 9.

[Vendetta]

What would you consider an example of a flaw which would have affected her character development as part of the wider narrative?

See Faxmodem1's post.

Does Rey's flaws hamper her ability to build relationships? Does it hinder her from embarking on a path of becoming a hero?

Yes?

Rey is pathologically clinging to an ideal of the past embodied by her parents and that causes her to be absolutely desperate for Luke to return so that she can go back to Jakku and sit and wait for them forever.

If you chart Rey's progression according to the Hero's Journey, she's barely begun. TFA was the call to adventure, she attempts to refuse the call at the end of it, meets the mentor (Luke) and crosses the first threshold (dives into the force swirly and accepts the truth about her parents), and enters the belly of the whale (the Supremacy) where she suffers a setback (she fails because she didn't really know what she was doing).

Rey's flaw is that she denies the responsibility that comes with being a Jedi. She wants someone else to do it so she doesn't have to. Not really because she's afraid, but because she hasn't let go of attachment to the past (Remember that the Jedi are influenced by Taoism, where attachments are an impediment to reaching enlightenment).

She's started that journey, but her failure on the Supremacy was also born from it because she was still trying to copy the past, but Luke's past this time. And her biggest success with the force happens when she's trying to help people move forwards.

[ray245]

Yes?

Rey is pathologically clinging to an ideal of the past embodied by her parents and that causes her to be absolutely desperate for Luke to return so that she can go back to Jakku and sit and wait for them forever.

If you chart Rey's progression according to the Hero's Journey, she's barely begun. TFA was the call to adventure, she attempts to refuse the call at the end of it, meets the mentor (Luke) and crosses the first threshold (dives into the force swirly and accepts the truth about her parents), and enters the belly of the whale (the Supremacy) where she suffers a setback (she fails because she didn't really know what she was doing).

Rey's flaw is that she denies the responsibility that comes with being a Jedi. She wants someone else to do it so she doesn't have to. Not really because she's afraid, but because she hasn't let go of attachment to the past (Remember that the Jedi are influenced by Taoism, where attachments are an impediment to reaching enlightenment).

She's started that journey, but her failure on the Supremacy was also born from it because she was still trying to copy the past, but Luke's past this time. And her biggest success with the force happens when she's trying to help people move forwards.

Except she saved the day for two whole movies despite her "flaw". Her flaw doesn't stop her from helping the heroes defeat Kylo Ren in Ep 7, her flaw didn't stop her from coming back and save the rebels trapped in the tunnel. Also, if Rey's hero's journey has barely begun after two whole movies, there is something you are really doing wrong with Rey as a character.

Her denial of responsibility does not stop her from helping people when they needed her help. She went to Luke when she could have gone back to Jakku, she went back to the salt planet because she wanted to save her friends. She has let go of her past when people needed her to. She grumble about not being able to go back to Jakku, but that's mostly just talk. At every chance she had to go back to Jakku, she chose to help people.

Her flaws didn't really affect the main narrative in any major sense, because it didn't really handicap her. There is very little meaningful consequences to her personal flaws.

[Vendetta]

Except she saved the day for two whole movies despite her "flaw". Her flaw doesn't stop her from helping the heroes defeat Kylo Ren in Ep 7, her flaw didn't stop her from coming back and save the rebels trapped in the tunnel. Also, if Rey's hero's journey has barely begun after two whole movies, there is something you are really doing wrong with Rey as a character.

How did she save the day?

In TFA the only person she saves is Finn, and this happened after everyone else had already fixed the Starkiller Base problem, her having been captured before they started trying. Everyone else saved the day, she saved one person.

In TLJ she helps Kylo Ren a bit to do what he was largely going to do anyway, but mostly by being a distraction for Snoke. The only time she unequivocally helps everyone else is right at the end after she's passed through her repeated failures.

Her denial of responsibility does not stop her from helping people when they needed her help. She went to Luke when she could have gone back to Jakku, she went back to the salt planet because she wanted to save her friends. She has let go of her past when people needed her to. She grumble about not being able to go back to Jakku, but that's mostly just talk. At every chance she had to go back to Jakku, she chose to help people.

She went to Luke and immediately tried to get him to shoulder the burden of standing up to the first order. Look at her face when she's holding out the Lightsabre, she's desperate for Luke to take it and free her from having to be the hero. (This is what the refusing the call part of the hero's journey means).

And she goes to Crait to help after her character has grown to the point that she realises that there's nothing on Jakku.

Her flaws didn't really affect the main narrative in any major sense, because it didn't really handicap her. There is very little meaningful consequences to her personal flaws.

Apart from how she achieves literally nothing she sets out to do until the last five minutes of The Last Jedi.

[ray245]

How did she save the day?

In TFA the only person she saves is Finn, and this happened after everyone else had already fixed the Starkiller Base problem, her having been captured before they started trying. Everyone else saved the day, she saved one person.

Within the main narrative of a film, that's her main hero moment? Her entire arc is about how connection with Finn, and instead of running away and leaving him to his death, she saved his life by embracing the force.

Did she save the day as in the whole Resistance/Galaxy at large? Not really, but within her character's story, she did save the day. And let's not forget the whole destroy SKB plot was entirely disconnected from her personal character arc.

In TLJ she helps Kylo Ren a bit to do what he was largely going to do anyway, but mostly by being a distraction for Snoke. The only time she unequivocally helps everyone else is right at the end after she's passed through her repeated failures.

She eliminated the biggest threat to the galaxy by just being there. But she helped Kylo Ren when he needed it, she help the resistance when they needed her.

Her repeated failures? In what sense? She played a role in getting Luke out of his cave, even if R2 was the one that played the message. She got all she need to have to learn about the Jedi Order. Her failures were inconsequential. She might have failed to get Luke out on her own, but it doesn't matter because Luke came out of his cave anyway.

She went to Luke and immediately tried to get him to shoulder the burden of standing up to the first order. Look at her face when she's holding out the Lightsabre, she's desperate for Luke to take it and free her from having to be the hero. (This is what the refusing the call part of the hero's journey means).

And she didn't give up on Luke after he said no for the first time. She could have said "fuck this, I'm out and live out the rest of my life on Jakku" after Luke turned her down. But she didn't. She stuck around and even become a willing student of Luke (before she found out about her parentage)

And she goes to Crait to help after her character has grown to the point that she realises that there's nothing on Jakku.

Didn't stop her from trying to save Kylo Ren from the Darkside.

Apart from how she achieves literally nothing she sets out to do until the last five minutes of The Last Jedi.

Being a distraction for Snoke was a pretty big deal. Stealing the Jedi books is a pretty big deal. Saving Kylo Ren in the battle was a pretty big deal.

[Vendetta]

How did she save the day?

In TFA the only person she saves is Finn, and this happened after everyone else had already fixed the Starkiller Base problem, her having been captured before they started trying. Everyone else saved the day, she saved one person.

Within the main narrative of a film, that's her main hero moment? Her entire arc is about how connection with Finn, and instead of running away and leaving him to his death, she saved his life by embracing the force.

Did she save the day as in the whole Resistance/Galaxy at large? Not really, but within her character's story, she did save the day. And let's not forget the whole destroy SKB plot was entirely disconnected from her personal character arc.

So when she briefly does the thing I'm saying her arc is about doing, she succeeds (but only in the extremely limited sense of doesn't immediately die) and when she had previously rejected doing so (trying not to be the one to take the Lightsabre despite Maz' insistence it was for her) she failed and suffered negative consequences (was captured).

So the thing I'm saying is her arc is her arc then...

She eliminated the biggest threat to the galaxy by just being there. But she helped Kylo Ren when he needed it, she help the resistance when they needed her.

Her repeated failures? In what sense? She played a role in getting Luke out of his cave, even if R2 was the one that played the message. She got all she need to have to learn about the Jedi Order. Her failures were inconsequential. She might have failed to get Luke out on her own, but it doesn't matter because Luke came out of his cave anyway.

She fought alongside Kylo Ren in order to not die, but her objective in going there was to turn him and she didn't because she didn't understand the situation at all. (And she was manipulated into being there anyway).

And no, she didn't get Luke to come out of his cave and help. R2 and Yoda did that.

And she didn't give up on Luke after he said no for the first time. She could have said "fuck this, I'm out and live out the rest of my life on Jakku" after Luke turned her down. But she didn't. She stuck around and even become a willing student of Luke (before she found out about her parentage)

Could she? She was rather reliant on Chewie to get anywhere at that point.

Didn't stop her from trying to save Kylo Ren from the Darkside.

And, as noted, failing because she was doing the wrong thing for the wrong reason. She was trying to repeat what worked for someone else because she was manipulated by Snoke into believing it was possible.

Being a distraction for Snoke was a pretty big deal. Stealing the Jedi books is a pretty big deal. Saving Kylo Ren in the battle was a pretty big deal.

Snoke would have found something else to fuck up on, because that was the point of him. Being nowhere near as powerful or clever as he thought he was (if that vast hologram in TFA didn't immediately ping your Oz radar you need to pay more attention).

And again, she only "saved" Kylo Ren because she was operating under the illusion he could be turned, which is a failure in line with her arc as I have presented it (clinging to the past, trying to repeat a thing that worked before).

[ray245]

So when she briefly does the thing I'm saying her arc is about doing, she succeeds (but only in the extremely limited sense of doesn't immediately die) and when she had previously rejected doing so (trying not to be the one to take the Lightsabre despite Maz' insistence it was for her) she failed and suffered negative consequences (was captured).

So the thing I'm saying is her arc is her arc then...

And that's the problem, in the sense that if her personal arc isn't connected with the main narrative, then what's the point of her as a character within a movie? With the OT, even though we have characters being seperated from each other, they all builds towards a final confrontation together.

She suffered consequences, but those consequences are not as dire because she essentially got herself out of the tight spot anyway. Thus, any consequences looks like minor speed-bump, rather than consequences that will impact how she grows as a character.

She fought alongside Kylo Ren in order to not die, but her objective in going there was to turn him and she didn't because she didn't understand the situation at all. (And she was manipulated into being there anyway).

And she helped saved the galaxy just by being there, by accident. It removes her agency as a hero, because she doesn't need to do anything to save the galaxy.

And no, she didn't get Luke to come out of his cave and help. R2 and Yoda did that.

Without her, R2 won't be there. Without her, Luke won't have someone who is constantly banging on his door to remind him that he needs to come out of his cave. R2 and Yoda were the ones that convinced Luke in the end, but Rey got the ball rolling in the first place.

And that's kinda an issue. All Rey needs to do is to get the ball rolling, and everyone else around her will kinda do the job for her.

Could she? She was rather reliant on Chewie to get anywhere at that point.

Would Chewie refuse to let her leave the planet? And she can pilot the ship on her own.

And, as noted, failing because she was doing the wrong thing for the wrong reason. She was trying to repeat what worked for someone else because she was manipulated by Snoke into believing it was possible.

And she still accidentally help save the Galaxy by driving a wedge between Kylo Ren and Snoke.

Snoke would have found something else to fuck up on, because that was the point of him. Being nowhere near as powerful or clever as he thought he was (if that vast hologram in TFA didn't immediately ping your Oz radar you need to pay more attention).

And again, she only "saved" Kylo Ren because she was operating under the illusion he could be turned, which is a failure in line with her arc as I have presented it (clinging to the past, trying to repeat a thing that worked before).

I think you underestimated Snoke. Snoke is meant to be the big threat that Kylo Ren is afraid of, and he was only willing to kill him because a very tiny window of opportunity opened up for him.

And if Rey wasn't needed to get Kylo Ren to kill Snoke, then what exactly has Rey accomplished as a "hero"?


I think the writers have constantly let down Rey as a character, because what she has been doing is to meander around and the plot somehow resolve itself with her doing anything actively. Rey is a very passive character, in the sense that she merely reacts to the world around her rather than actively shape the fate of the galaxy.

I certainly don't think Rey has been well developed enough to buy the idea that she has learned all the skills needed to become a Jedi master and teach a whole new generation of students.

[ray245]

So when she briefly does the thing I'm saying her arc is about doing, she succeeds (but only in the extremely limited sense of doesn't immediately die) and when she had previously rejected doing so (trying not to be the one to take the Lightsabre despite Maz' insistence it was for her) she failed and suffered negative consequences (was captured).

So the thing I'm saying is her arc is her arc then...

And that's the problem, in the sense that if her personal arc isn't connected with the main narrative, then what's the point of her as a character within a movie? With the OT, even though we have characters being seperated from each other, they all builds towards a final confrontation together.

She suffered consequences, but those consequences are not as dire because she essentially got herself out of the tight spot anyway. Thus, any consequences looks like minor speed-bump, rather than consequences that will impact how she grows as a character.

She fought alongside Kylo Ren in order to not die, but her objective in going there was to turn him and she didn't because she didn't understand the situation at all. (And she was manipulated into being there anyway).

And she helped saved the galaxy just by being there, by accident. It removes her agency as a hero, because she doesn't need to do anything to save the galaxy.

And no, she didn't get Luke to come out of his cave and help. R2 and Yoda did that.

Without her, R2 won't be there. Without her, Luke won't have someone who is constantly banging on his door to remind him that he needs to come out of his cave. R2 and Yoda were the ones that convinced Luke in the end, but Rey got the ball rolling in the first place.

And that's kinda an issue. All Rey needs to do is to get the ball rolling, and everyone else around her will kinda do the job for her.

Could she? She was rather reliant on Chewie to get anywhere at that point.

Would Chewie refuse to let her leave the planet? And she can pilot the ship on her own.

And, as noted, failing because she was doing the wrong thing for the wrong reason. She was trying to repeat what worked for someone else because she was manipulated by Snoke into believing it was possible.

And she still accidentally help save the Galaxy by driving a wedge between Kylo Ren and Snoke.

Snoke would have found something else to fuck up on, because that was the point of him. Being nowhere near as powerful or clever as he thought he was (if that vast hologram in TFA didn't immediately ping your Oz radar you need to pay more attention).

And again, she only "saved" Kylo Ren because she was operating under the illusion he could be turned, which is a failure in line with her arc as I have presented it (clinging to the past, trying to repeat a thing that worked before).

I think you underestimated Snoke. Snoke is meant to be the big threat that Kylo Ren is afraid of, and he was only willing to kill him because a very tiny window of opportunity opened up for him.

And if Rey wasn't needed to get Kylo Ren to kill Snoke, then what exactly has Rey accomplished as a "hero"?


I think the writers have constantly let down Rey as a character, because what she has been doing is to meander around and the plot somehow resolve itself with her doing anything actively. Rey is a very passive character, in the sense that she merely reacts to the world around her rather than actively shape the fate of the galaxy.

I certainly don't think Rey has been well developed enough to buy the idea that she has learned all the skills needed to become a Jedi master and teach a whole new generation of students.