Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

[Vendetta]

Possibly. Just from the scene setting at the end?

Yeah, those weren't '70s cars or music.

So he's returned to the postwar period and retired there.

[AniThyng]

He also must have found the time to undo Loki snatching away the tesseract too...

[Vendetta]

He also must have found the time to undo Loki snatching away the tesseract too...

With six infinity stones and Mjolnir, is Loki going to argue too hard?

[Crazedwraith]

He also must have found the time to undo Loki snatching away the tesseract too...

With six infinity stones and Mjolnir, is Loki going to argue too hard?

I figured that was left open for the potential Loki series.

After all it's alternate timeline, they didn't 'need' to fix it they were just doing so from a moral imperative.

[Dominus Atheos]

I liked like 85% of it. But it has a couple issues I can't seem to get over.

So does time travel make distinct alternate universes or not? Was Captain America always the husband of peggy carter or not?

Was Captain Marvel shoehorned in by corporate when the shooting was 75% of the shooting was done or something? She was really unnecessary to the story. She wasn't even in the time travel scenes was she?

So...Loki? What the hell was that, what happened? Why would you leave that plot thread hanging like that?

These seem like glaring unforced plot holes that actually detract from the movie because I can't get over thinking about them.

I did like all the parts that actually were in the movie though.

[Crazedwraith]

It just occurred to me that Nebula certainly and Tony very likely knows what getting the soul stone cost. And they must have very coldly and logically assigned the mission to Black Widow and Hawkeye and not telling them. They are perfect for it. Two killers who love each other (platonically) but will do what's required for the good of the mission.

There's some very dark decision making that's not addressed.

[AniThyng]

The guardians of the galaxy timeline where 2014 Thanos and minions left and never returned is also going to be pretty messed up, especially since that also lacks gamora and nebula.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Something one of my friends pointed out is, how did past!Nebula manage to use the Time Machine to bring Thanos and his army to the present? The sheer size of the ship is one problem, the lack of a "temporal GPS" is another. The latter could be explained by the bad guys managing to pull Nebula's memory to find out how the device worked and building their own, the former though I have no idea.

Same way they took their ships to the past. Shrank it with the Pym Particles.

Problem with that is they only had enough for each character to make two trips- one each way. And those were for individuals- they would have needed a fuckton of Pym particles to transport Thanos' city-sized monstrosity.

I think it was a way to underline how powerful Thanos was, as if it wasn't obvious already- the way Captain Marvel took down his ship all by herself but while she could go toe to toe couldn't actually defeat him, as did Captain America when he dual wielded hammer and shield. Thor would have done better had he not let himself go and put on fifty pounds, I was surprised his armour still fitted.

The way Widow and Hawkeye literally fought over who was going to sacrifice themselves certainly kept the audience guessing who was actually going to jump. You'd think that the rules would be different when the person who fell did so willingly instead of being pushed, and what would happen if they both jumped?

I get that the team made their Iron Man gauntlet with the intention that Stark would wear it. But considering it was Hulk who actually wore the thing they could have done it with the original gauntlet which they actually had.

Why Cap decided to give the shield to Falcon instead of Bucky, an actual super soldier who could throw it properly?

I feel sorry for Quill, as far as Gamora is concerned they were never an item, being past!Gamora who hadn't met him yet.

[PREDATOR490]

Just watched it and I will probably need to rewatch it because it felt really busy to the point some stuff might have not been processed to properly get a good judge of the film in proper context.

For the most part - This film felt like it was breaking under the amount of strain it was under to cover so much ground with 10 years of history.

My biggest gripe is that the time travel rules were overtly hammered then shit went everywhere without even a nod.

I.e Loki stole the tesseract then they go back and steal it from the 70s.
My only conclusion is that Steve must have put the stone back in the 70s so Loki can steal it later.

Follow that up by Steve going back to this alternate reality to live his fantasy life with Carter.
So are we to conclude that Steve going back did nothing to that Timeline ?

Did Steve Rogers seriously sit back and allow that timeline to develop along the same path as the original even with the knowledge to prevent it ?

I thought they were creating another universe but somehow Steve is sitting on a bench in theirs...

Frankly, it feels like this was a great concept that was brought about as a means to further future Marvel franchise projects and ensure that backdoors were left.
Unfortunately, the concept falls apart really quickly when your film laid out the rules so adamantly before.

[ray245]

Why Cap decided to give the shield to Falcon instead of Bucky, an actual super soldier who could throw it properly?

I think part of the reason is to address the diversity issue of phrase 1-3 heroes being mostly dominated by white, male heroes? The fear of being seen as not diverse enough for phrase 4 might be the the key motivation.

[Vendetta]

Something one of my friends pointed out is, how did past!Nebula manage to use the Time Machine to bring Thanos and his army to the present? The sheer size of the ship is one problem, the lack of a "temporal GPS" is another. The latter could be explained by the bad guys managing to pull Nebula's memory to find out how the device worked and building their own, the former though I have no idea.

Same way they took their ships to the past. Shrank it with the Pym Particles.

Problem with that is they only had enough for each character to make two trips- one each way. And those were for individuals- they would have needed a fuckton of Pym particles to transport Thanos' city-sized monstrosity.

In the Ant-Man movies they've reasonably consistently used the same dose to shrink and grow anything. There is an effect whilst Thanos' ship is doing its time jump of it growing using the same effect they use in the Ant-Man movies.

So that's definitely what happens.

Why Cap decided to give the shield to Falcon instead of Bucky, an actual super soldier who could throw it properly?

Because Sam took over as Captain America more recently in the comics. And in the MCU has an actual personality, whereas Bucky can about manage "lost puppy".

I feel sorry for Quill, as far as Gamora is concerned they were never an item, being past!Gamora who hadn't met him yet.

I expect Guardians 3 will involve a quest to recover her from the Soul Stone. Given that they're introducing the character who is most intimately tied to it.

[Crazedwraith]

Why Cap decided to give the shield to Falcon instead of Bucky, an actual super soldier who could throw it properly?

Because Sam took over as Captain America more recently in the comics. And in the MCU has an actual personality, whereas Bucky can about manage "lost puppy".

To be fair, I hoped they'd give it to Bucky so they would have to give him more to do and more personality...

[EnterpriseSovereign]

As well as being Cap's childhood friend, Bucky has an artificial arm, so diversity would have been covered either way.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

GHETTO EDIT: Guardians 3 will feature Adam Warlock, it cannot be about recovering Gamora because Thanos destroyed all the stones once he was done with them.

[PREDATOR490]

Is Thor going to be a permanent addition to the Guardians now ?

On the one hand, they seem to have gotten a good mix of tone going there which they could run with for a bit.
However, that ending with the fighting over who is in charge seems like it is going to be a fair representation of a REAL problem that would happen.

Thor is a nearly unkillable being with immense powers. It gets a bit sketchy that he is going to be taking orders from Quil and suddenly join the lifestyle of space pirate / smuggler / scoundrel.

Incidentally, I do feel this film went to excess on completely screwing over Thor bad enough that he would not be able to put out the kind of hurt that he really should have.

That said, another issue I have with this time travel shit - Did he seriously just steal his hammer from another universe ?
If they are worried about messing with futures and timelines. I feel that stealing Thor's hammer would cause a massive issue.
Especially since he is apparently stealing it during the Dark World movie.

Additionally, were they all going to the same timeline ?
Thor goes to Asgard during the Dark World movie - We see Loki in the prison which only can occur if he was captured during Avengers Assemble.
However, we see Avengers Assemble, Loki is seen stealing the Tesseract and zipping off.

I am also going to say that I feel like the massive elephant in the room that was over-looked was the Time Stone shenanigans.
Did the Ancient One always know Steven Strange was going to join them ?

If so, that who shtick where she had to be convinced to let him in to join in Doctor Strange because he might become a new bad guy comes across as a bit... stupid.
I also found it a bit jarring that she goes through this whole argument about not handing the stone over only for a name drop of Strange to change her mind. They do not really explain or justify why such a name drop would get that reaction when she has not even met Strange yet.

Overall,
I am left thinking that the Time Travel aspect was a predictable way of pushing the reset, although I will give credit that it was a quasi reset that did not undo everything. However, this Time Travel mixed with alternate universes and the obvious hazy area of the shenanigans they pulled make a mess for creating a stable story continuity.

[Crazedwraith]

That said, another issue I have with this time travel shit - Did he seriously just steal his hammer from another universe ?
If they are worried about messing with futures and timelines. I feel that stealing Thor's hammer would cause a massive issue.
Especially since he is apparently stealing it during the Dark World movie.

As with the stones, Steve returns the hammer to it's rightful time at the end, quick enough for it's breif absence not to matter.

Additionally, were they all going to the same timeline ?
Thor goes to Asgard during the Dark World movie - We see Loki in the prison which only can occur if he was captured during Avengers Assemble.
However, we see Avengers Assemble, Loki is seen stealing the Tesseract and zipping off.

I assume not for exactly that reason. Each time heist team's changes splits of it's own new time line.

I am also going to say that I feel like the massive elephant in the room that was over-looked was the Time Stone shenanigans.
Did the Ancient One always know Steven Strange was going to join them ?

If so, that who shtick where she had to be convinced to let him in to join in Doctor Strange because he might become a new bad guy comes across as a bit... stupid.
I also found it a bit jarring that she goes through this whole argument about not handing the stone over only for a name drop of Strange to change her mind. They do not really explain or justify why such a name drop would get that reaction when she has not even met Strange yet.

Even in Dr Strange's own movie she could see the future up until her death. So yeah she know's who Strange is and what he becomes. She locks him out for a bit because either she's seen the future that what she does. (which is interesting for lack of free will) or like Strange in IW can see possibilities and knows Strange needs that kick up the arse to humble him some more.

Her reasoning about Strange was quite clear in the film. She knows who he is. Know he's successor and knows he'll keep his oath and had a plan and is willing to go along with it.

Overall,
I am left thinking that the Time Travel aspect was a predictable way of pushing the reset, although I will give credit that it was a quasi reset that did not undo everything. However, this Time Travel mixed with alternate universes and the obvious hazy area of the shenanigans they pulled make a mess for creating a stable story continuity.

Old Steve reappearing against the rules is the only thing that bothers me excessively about the time travel and that they end the film with a working time machine they will probably never use or acknowledge again.

[NeoGoomba]

We don't know how long Alt-Thanos had Nebula's pym particle before using them. Perhaps he and his Children studied them long enough to figure out how to make enough to bring the ship.

Aside from all the calculated weapons-grade fan service (I got far too emotional far too easily) one thing I did love, and it was subtle, was the difference between Thanos and Alt-Thanos. Thanos at the battle of Titan and on Earth, was a depressed, emotional oaf after killing Gamora. I mean, he's the epitome of the arrogant, abusive, sadistic father figure, and it seemed like the self-pity he made himself feel really blunted his edge. And he tried to tell himself he was some benevolent figure the closer he got to achieving his goal

Cut to Alt-Thanos, who hadn't yet had to deal with his familial issues, and who was still hungry for the stones: a brutal motherfucker who knew he was a monster and reveled in it, not pretending he was anything else.

[FireNexus]

Just watched it and I will probably need to rewatch it because it felt really busy to the point some stuff might have not been processed to properly get a good judge of the film in proper context.

For the most part - This film felt like it was breaking under the amount of strain it was under to cover so much ground with 10 years of history.

My biggest gripe is that the time travel rules were overtly hammered then shit went everywhere without even a nod.

I.e Loki stole the tesseract then they go back and steal it from the 70s.
My only conclusion is that Steve must have put the stone back in the 70s so Loki can steal it later.

Follow that up by Steve going back to this alternate reality to live his fantasy life with Carter.
So are we to conclude that Steve going back did nothing to that Timeline ?

Did Steve Rogers seriously sit back and allow that timeline to develop along the same path as the original even with the knowledge to prevent it ?

I thought they were creating another universe but somehow Steve is sitting on a bench in theirs...

Frankly, it feels like this was a great concept that was brought about as a means to further future Marvel franchise projects and ensure that backdoors were left.
Unfortunately, the concept falls apart really quickly when your film laid out the rules so adamantly before.

I think the rules are simple: Taking the stones/changing the timeline creates a parallel universe, but the time travel method anchors you to your original timeline. That means you can return to your future, unaltered.it allows you to retrieve things from your past, but not change your past. Here’s the thing: doing this for just this one mission created at least half a dozen new possible futures where the avengers will still have to deal with Thanos. In fact, the only one where everyone doesn’t get dusted by Thanos is probably one where Quill dies from handling the power stone or manages to successfully fence it then go on being a minor space scumbag for the foreseeable future until Ego gets the juice to become the whole universe and everyone dies that way.

So, essentially, this whole situation created its own little multiverse with an infinite number of avengers teams infinitely trying to unfuck things. And the variations from each are likely to be relatively subtle to the time travelers, because they’re going to places in their recentish pasts to start with.

So, I think the time travel rules are fully consistent and old man Steve is not “our” Steve but a close enough (maybe practically identical, because infinite alternates infinitely fucking with infinity stones) Steve who settles down in our past. Which means our Steve is doing basically the same thing in an alt universe that is probably more or less identical, and that’s why he didn’t show.

It was clear that you can’t change the past during time travel, which means alt-Steve was around all along. And he couldn’t have come from this universe without having been a time traveler who changed the past. And the only people who seemed fully clear on that were Rocket, Banner, and Tilda Swindon.

[FaxModem1]

Just got back from seeing it. Loved it, and I did cry at parts.

Couple of things noodling in my brain.

1.) Peter Parker should be 5 years younger than everyone he knew who wasn't dusted. So either his best friend was undusted as well, or he came back to high school to say hello to Peter.

2.) I really hope after dropping off the stones and hammer, but before living with Peggy, he did something about his best friend's life as a brainwashed assassin. It seems rather cruel if, in a timeline where he can change anything but the stones, he let his best friend live a life of torture for decades while he enjoys 1950s America with Peggy.

3.) There's got to be a lot of people who didn't survive the past 5 years due to all the chaos and fall of civilization due to half of all living creatures dying. That includes plants and animals dying. Hell, I'm sure entire nations collapsed and cities were destroyed. Economies fell, etc. As pointed out in this video, things would have gone REALLY bad worldwide:



The setting can no longer be Earth, but with superheroes, as this was a HUGE change. The Avengers might have been doing cleanup for the five years after that, but they would be really overwhelmed.

4.) At the funeral, who was the young guy standing by himself after the Bartons and I think the Guardians? He looked familiar, but I couldn't place him.

5.) Does Guardians of the Galaxy even happen in the alternate timeline with no Thanos to support Ronan's genocide plans?

6.) If Steve always married Peggy, does that mean he made out with his grandniece?

Still really enjoyed this film, just wondering about what all that means for the alternate timeline.

[J Ryan]

Regarding point 4 it was the kid from iron Man 3 (same actor).

[Civil War Man]

4.) At the funeral, who was the young guy standing by himself after the Bartons and I think the Guardians? He looked familiar, but I couldn't place him.

I was wondering that as well, so I looked it up afterwards. The actor is Ty Simpkins, who played the kid who helps Tony repair the Mark 42 suit in Iron Man 3. They really do callbacks to just about everything.

[GuppyShark]

Cap on the bench isn't a big deal. We know from the 70s sidetrip they can repoint themselves. Presumably Cap lived his alternate reality (but still a reality) life with Peggy and then much later went back to his original reality to pass the torch along.

Fax: Funeral guy nobody recognised is said to be the kid from the Iron Man 3.

[Lost Soal]

I think the rules are simple: Taking the stones/changing the timeline creates a parallel universe, but the time travel method anchors you to your original timeline. That means you can return to your future, unaltered.it allows you to retrieve things from your past, but not change your past. Here’s the thing: doing this for just this one mission created at least half a dozen new possible futures where the avengers will still have to deal with Thanos. In fact, the only one where everyone doesn’t get dusted by Thanos is probably one where Quill dies from handling the power stone or manages to successfully fence it then go on being a minor space scumbag for the foreseeable future until Ego gets the juice to become the whole universe and everyone dies that way.

So, essentially, this whole situation created its own little multiverse with an infinite number of avengers teams infinitely trying to unfuck things. And the variations from each are likely to be relatively subtle to the time travelers, because they’re going to places in their recentish pasts to start with.

So, I think the time travel rules are fully consistent and old man Steve is not “our” Steve but a close enough (maybe practically identical, because infinite alternates infinitely fucking with infinity stones) Steve who settles down in our past. Which means our Steve is doing basically the same thing in an alt universe that is probably more or less identical, and that’s why he didn’t show.

It was clear that you can’t change the past during time travel, which means alt-Steve was around all along. And he couldn’t have come from this universe without having been a time traveler who changed the past. And the only people who seemed fully clear on that were Rocket, Banner, and Tilda Swindon.

Close. Based on what The Ancient said it is the Infinity stones specifically which govern the realities. Take the stone and you create a new branch giving between 3 and 6 new branches since some of the stones were taken from the same time period thatmay have resulted in only 1 branch.
As you say they return to the Prime reality. Because of this the Nebula & Thanos from 2014 were no longer their past so they could kill them without consequence.
When the stones are returned the branches were cut off so potentially don't even happen. Once Rogers returned the last stone there was now only the Prime reality and him going back doesn't create a new branch so long as he doesn't alter any events involving Infinity stones.
Thats how I see it anyway's.

[AniThyng]

I think the rules are simple: Taking the stones/changing the timeline creates a parallel universe, but the time travel method anchors you to your original timeline. That means you can return to your future, unaltered.it allows you to retrieve things from your past, but not change your past. Here’s the thing: doing this for just this one mission created at least half a dozen new possible futures where the avengers will still have to deal with Thanos. In fact, the only one where everyone doesn’t get dusted by Thanos is probably one where Quill dies from handling the power stone or manages to successfully fence it then go on being a minor space scumbag for the foreseeable future until Ego gets the juice to become the whole universe and everyone dies that way.

So, essentially, this whole situation created its own little multiverse with an infinite number of avengers teams infinitely trying to unfuck things. And the variations from each are likely to be relatively subtle to the time travelers, because they’re going to places in their recentish pasts to start with.

So, I think the time travel rules are fully consistent and old man Steve is not “our” Steve but a close enough (maybe practically identical, because infinite alternates infinitely fucking with infinity stones) Steve who settles down in our past. Which means our Steve is doing basically the same thing in an alt universe that is probably more or less identical, and that’s why he didn’t show.

It was clear that you can’t change the past during time travel, which means alt-Steve was around all along. And he couldn’t have come from this universe without having been a time traveler who changed the past. And the only people who seemed fully clear on that were Rocket, Banner, and Tilda Swindon.

Close. Based on what The Ancient said it is the Infinity stones specifically which govern the realities. Take the stone and you create a new branch giving between 3 and 6 new branches since some of the stones were taken from the same time period thatmay have resulted in only 1 branch.
As you say they return to the Prime reality. Because of this the Nebula & Thanos from 2014 were no longer their past so they could kill them without consequence.
When the stones are returned the branches were cut off so potentially don't even happen. Once Rogers returned the last stone there was now only the Prime reality and him going back doesn't create a new branch so long as he doesn't alter any events involving Infinity stones.
Thats how I see it anyway's.

But how would that explain away stuff like the impact of stuff like say, what happened to Peter Quill when Warmachine and nebula knocked him out and took the stone, and the ripple effet that would have on that timeline?

[GuppyShark]

The idea that the reality gems are responsible for realities falls apart if you think about the fact that the 'prime' universe no longer has any. The Ancient One's argument was probably more about stealing something they need to keep their reality safe, not that reality itself depends on it.