Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

[FireNexus]

Remember, the red god demands sacrifices, and Stannis was perfectly happy to burn his brother in law, and his child, when he was losing. I doubt Dany will do so, but if guaranteed miracles, like victory against her enemies, when she is especially desperate, will she pursue them?

She sacrificed her horse(and her son on accident), for black magics to fix her husband. So we know she is willing to pay a certain price for what she wants.

Dany and the Direwolves sacrificed Death Itself to the Lord of Light. I’d say it’s fair to consider the Lord’s thirst slaked on human timescales.

[NeoGoomba]

If anything I'd say the Lord of Light owes them one.

[The Romulan Republic]

If anything I'd say the Lord of Light owes them one.

Indeed. A thousand years free of demands for human sacrifices sounds should settle the debt nicely. And if it doesn't, we'll just send Arya to kill the Lord of Light.

[The Romulan Republic]

We've also had the subplot from previous seasons of the Red priestesses working to intertwine the faith and Dany's reign. So, expect child and non-believer burnings in the near future when Dany is on the throne.

Probably NOT when Danny is on the throne (I've never bought the simplistic fandom portrayal of Danny as Femme Aerys). Especially not early on, when it'll take time for the Westrosi to become accomadated to the new system, and her reign is unstable.

Her successors, probably.

Remember, the red god demands sacrifices, and Stannis was perfectly happy to burn his brother in law, and his child, when he was losing. I doubt Dany will do so, but if guaranteed miracles, like victory against her enemies, when she is especially desperate, will she pursue them?

She sacrificed her horse(and her son on accident), for black magics to fix her husband. So we know she is willing to pay a certain price for what she wants.

Going back to this... I somehow complete forgot that Danny sacrificed her kid (even if it wasn't a fully witting choice).

Man, she really is Fem-Stannis (in both the good and bad ways), not Fem-Aerys.

[FaxModem1]

Probably NOT when Danny is on the throne (I've never bought the simplistic fandom portrayal of Danny as Femme Aerys). Especially not early on, when it'll take time for the Westrosi to become accomadated to the new system, and her reign is unstable.

Her successors, probably.

Remember, the red god demands sacrifices, and Stannis was perfectly happy to burn his brother in law, and his child, when he was losing. I doubt Dany will do so, but if guaranteed miracles, like victory against her enemies, when she is especially desperate, will she pursue them?

She sacrificed her horse(and her son on accident), for black magics to fix her husband. So we know she is willing to pay a certain price for what she wants.

Going back to this... I somehow complete forgot that Danny sacrificed her kid (even if it wasn't a fully witting choice).

Man, she really is Fem-Stannis (in both the good and bad ways), not Fem-Aerys.

To give Dany credit, she made net-positive changes to the world by ending slavery in quite a few civilizations. Stannis, not so much.

[The Romulan Republic]

Quite true. Though to be fair to Stannis, he didn't have dragons.

[FaxModem1]

Quite true. Though to be fair to Stannis, he didn't have dragons.

You know, I really don't care. That still doesn't justify burning his brother, daughter, brother-in-law, and killing anyone(aside from Davos) or locking up anyone who disagrees with him(including Davos). Dany at least is willing to hear people out.

[The Romulan Republic]

Quite true. Though to be fair to Stannis, he didn't have dragons.

You know, I really don't care. That still doesn't justify burning his brother, daughter, brother-in-law, and killing anyone(aside from Davos) or locking up anyone who disagrees with him(including Davos). Dany at least is willing to hear people out.

No, I agree, Stannis crossed the line. Danny isn't quite as hardened yet, and a bit more willing to listen to advisers.

[The Romulan Republic]

Saw an interesting fan theory about Melisandra- that because her power works on human sacrifice, her own death was the sacrifice needed to fuel all that spectacular fire magic.

[Iroscato]

I've had some time to digest the last episode, and I've decided I actually really liked it. I wasn't sure about it at all after it was over, but in hindsight I think it did what it wanted to do and I find myself appreciating it in an unexpected way.
The Long Night was quite literal - it was a night that lasted for what felt like forever. There was pain, death, suffering and unspeakable violence. And then it was over, like a bad dream. The Night King was bested by a girl who was protecting her brother, her family, and her species, and who had the tools and skills to get the job done. I think it works well it being Arya when I think back on her arc and the journey she went.

I don't like the way certain things were executed and the path to get there was rough as fuck at times. But now I'm looking at the big picture... I'm really liking what I see.

[The Romulan Republic]

It does feel a bit out of step to me, given how they seemed to really be setting up either Jon or Danny, but probably Jon, as the Prince Who Was Promised, and having Jon as the main opponent to the White Walkers. But if you go back and look at it more closely, it isn't really. Its a show that's always tried to subvert expectations, and prophecies have been shown to be very hard to interpret when they're not outright false.

Its also fair to note that Jon's leadership went a long way to making the victory possible. That is not diminished by the fact that he didn't strike the death blow personally, at least not to me.

[streetad]

Remember, the red god demands sacrifices, and Stannis was perfectly happy to burn his brother in law, and his child, when he was losing. I doubt Dany will do so, but if guaranteed miracles, like victory against her enemies, when she is especially desperate, will she pursue them?

She sacrificed her horse(and her son on accident), for black magics to fix her husband. So we know she is willing to pay a certain price for what she wants.

Going back to this... I somehow complete forgot that Danny sacrificed her kid (even if it wasn't a fully witting choice).

Man, she really is Fem-Stannis (in both the good and bad ways), not Fem-Aerys.

To give Dany credit, she made net-positive changes to the world by ending slavery in quite a few civilizations. Stannis, not so much.

Did she though? Or are the cities of Slaver's Bay not going to immediately go back to doing what they've been doing for a thousand years as soon as the occupying foreign army have left?

[The Romulan Republic]

I'd say its a fair assumption that Danny left at least some garrison troops there. Plus I wouldn't want to be the person who provoked her into coming back with her dragons.

[NecronLord]

In both the books and the show, that's literally what happens though. She doesn't have the resources to garrison the cities.

By the time she's in Mereen, Astapor was taken over by Cleon the Butcher, who has re-started production of Unsullied boys, who was then defeated in short order by the Yunkai'i, who very quickly went back to their old tricks when she left. Without burning Yunkai to the ground there's non reason to think she's stopped the slave trade in a lasting way. Particularly without hitting Volantis, the main buyer for slaves.

A big part of why she spends so long trying to govern Mereen in the books is because she's aware that the moment she left Astapor and Yunkai, they just went back to doing what they were doing before. Even she has to re-open the fighting pits, and people have the front to smuggle slaves into the fighting pits (Tyrion and Jorah Mormont) in the show in front of her.

There's no reason to think it's not slave-o-clock again now that she's left.

[streetad]

I guess the best you could say for showDany is that she has immeasurably improved the lives of everyone in Essos by removing a large percentage of the Dothraki and getting them pointlessly killed against the NK. That alone should do a lot of damage to the slave trade.

[FaxModem1]

She also utterly destroyed the Slaver's Navy and Army. That has to cripple their resources quite a bit.

[Solauren]

I'd say its a fair assumption that Danny left at least some garrison troops there. Plus I wouldn't want to be the person who provoked her into coming back with her dragons.

She did.

She left the Second Sons in charge of 'Dragons Bay', after she annhilated the 'Masters' militaries, and two of their leadership.

The Masters of Slaver's Bay are a non-factor. And odds are, by now, the Second Sons have dealt with anything remaining, and are now able to reinforce.

[Knife]

It does feel a bit out of step to me, given how they seemed to really be setting up either Jon or Danny, but probably Jon, as the Prince Who Was Promised, and having Jon as the main opponent to the White Walkers. But if you go back and look at it more closely, it isn't really. Its a show that's always tried to subvert expectations, and prophecies have been shown to be very hard to interpret when they're not outright false.

Its also fair to note that Jon's leadership went a long way to making the victory possible. That is not diminished by the fact that he didn't strike the death blow personally, at least not to me.

Yeah, they set John up as main character must face main bad guy trope. That said, thematically, it makes sense. If you take the NK as an analog for Death, John as a character has already faced death and came back. Arya, while she has killed people, been in dangerous situations, has never really faced death yet. Closest being her battle with the Waif. The rest of the time Arya kills she is either with the Hound who is fighting and she kills on the periphery. She killed the Frey's but was in no real danger. She's mastered death as the bringer of, but never really faced death herself. It closes that loop.

Bran, obviously faced death in his journey north of the Wall. Sansa definitely faced death with Joffrey. Rickon is dead. Rob is dead. So Arya was the last Stark child to face death, this time literally. And she won.

As far as the prophecy, meh. I never really saw it as being an integral part of SOIAF. It's not even really 'misread' like Starwars. The Red Priests/Priestess' are just wrong.

[NecronLord]

It's rather optimistic to think that the Second Sons will keep order in Slaver's Bay in the long term. And while Dany flamed the fleet besieging Mereen she did nothing to disrupt the masters of Yunkai, except demanding they abolish slavery.

Their compliance with that will be a sham at best, and in the long term, distinctly dependent on fear of her if she manages to remain a power in Westeros, especially with Volantis being unaffected.

[Solauren]

Going back to this... I somehow complete forgot that Danny sacrificed her kid (even if it wasn't a fully witting choice).

Man, she really is Fem-Stannis (in both the good and bad ways), not Fem-Aerys.

No, Danny did NOT sacrifice her kid.

The sequence of events of that were.....

Drogo got seriously sick.
Blood Witch agrees to fix him, and says no one is allowed to enter the tent.
Danny goes into labor (possibly early)
JORAH carries Danny into the tent

Danny didn't sacrifice anything. Jorah carried her into the tent, in hopes of saving Danny. It appears that the death of the child was a side effect of entering the tent.

Danny then mercy-killed Drogo, and sacrificed/burned the blood witch alive.

Danny has not shown an inclination of any kind towards sacrifice. Eye for an Eye (You crucified all those kids? Crucify that many slave masters in response as a warning to others about that), and ruthless to her enemies (any battle she's ordered), absolutely. However, sacrifice? No.

Hell, she even appeared to be willing to send the Tarly's to the Wall to join the Night's Watch instead of burning them alive, until Lord Tarly pointed out, that she was not their acknowledged Queen, she didn't have that right.

[The Romulan Republic]

Going back to this... I somehow complete forgot that Danny sacrificed her kid (even if it wasn't a fully witting choice).

Man, she really is Fem-Stannis (in both the good and bad ways), not Fem-Aerys.

No, Danny did NOT sacrifice her kid.

Not consciously (so better than Stannis). I guess she was conned into it/it happened as an unintended result of her actions.

The sequence of events of that were.....

Drogo got seriously sick.
Blood Witch agrees to fix him, and says no one is allowed to enter the tent.
Danny goes into labor (possibly early)
JORAH carries Danny into the tent

Danny didn't sacrifice anything. Jorah carried her into the tent, in hopes of saving Danny. It appears that the death of the child was a side effect of entering the tent.

Danny then mercy-killed Drogo, and sacrificed/burned the blood witch alive.

Danny has not shown an inclination of any kind towards sacrifice. Eye for an Eye (You crucified all those kids? Crucify that many slave masters in response as a warning to others about that), and ruthless to her enemies (any battle she's ordered), absolutely. However, sacrifice? No.

Other than the horse for Drogo, agreed.

Hell, she even appeared to be willing to send the Tarly's to the Wall to join the Night's Watch instead of burning them alive, until Lord Tarly pointed out, that she was not their acknowledged Queen, she didn't have that right.

Shame, they could have used Tarly against the White Walkers. Plus the delicious of Karma of Sam having seniority over his father in the Night Watch.

Meanwhile, the usual surge of videos whining about how the episode sucked, ruined the show, etc. have popped up on Youtube. Smart money says most of them are Alt. Reichists bitter that a woman saved the day (and that a good chunk of the social media posts are Russian bots).

Its a pity Arya's fictional. She could put Putin on her List.

[Agent Fisher]

Well, I’ll finish the season, but after tonight, I’m just disappointed.

[The Romulan Republic]

For fun, here is a tactical analysis of the Third Battle of Winterfell (not sure what else to call it, since it doesn't have an agreed-upon cool name like Battle of the Bastards), written by an engineering office in the US National Guard:

https://www.wired.com/story/game-of-thr ... -analysis/

BY NOW WE’RE all familiar with the battle tactics in Game of Thrones: Confront your enemy head on—usually in some nicely arrayed lines—and hack at them until no one’s left alive or someone has won. It’s a tried-and-true method, with little in the way of actual operational depth. And as Sunday night’s Battle of Winterfell showed, it's particularly ineffective against an endless army of the undead. Spoilers ahead, obviously.

As the 82-minute episode opens, the allied forces of the living are ready to make their final stand against the undead forces of the Night King, a paramilitary commando who leads a death cult with a penchant for destroying everything you love. In military terms, the Night King is the center of gravity for the forces of the living: If they kill him, they have a shot at surviving the horde of the undead.

For his part, the Night King has an eye on Bran Stark, the S-2 intelligence officer for House Stark, what with his abilities to look backward and forward through time. Understanding his value as a target—he’s a good intelligence officer—Bran volunteers himself as bait to trap the Night King. The council of war agrees that this is the best option; it’s the only way to lure the Night King out from behind his forces. Plus, it falls into the hallowed military tradition of throwing the intelligence officer under the proverbial bus.

So far, so good. It’s at least a plan. From there, though, the allied forces are a mess.

This move, sometimes known as a “Custer,” predictably ends in ruin for the Dothraki cavalry.

Their first step should have been to establish an engagement area—a space in which they establish obstacles to disrupt and canalize the enemy so that they can be destroyed with direct and indirect fire. Using engagement area development, they could have used the time they had to incorporate a network of complex obstacles in front of Winterfell to slow and disrupt the waves of the undead. Instead, they left the field wide open. And what little strategy they did employ breaks down before the battle even begins.

Take the Dothraki cavalry. Putting that squadron forward of the main line of infantry was doctrinally correct, but the allied commanders did not put it to proper use: screening the allied lines and gaining active intelligence on the enemy. Instead, the Dothraki are ordered forward into an attack before the enemy situation is even known. This move, sometimes known as a “Custer,” predictably ends in ruin for the Dothraki cavalry, who get chewed up and spat out in an unsupported frontal attack. This destruction of the cav squadron leaves the allied forces without their reconnaissance assets.

Next we come to the issue of indirect fires. Any able field artillery officer could tell you that heavy-caliber indirect-fire weapons need to be positioned such that they’re both protected and mutually supportive of surrounding units. But the allies placed their batteries of trebuchets all along the lines, between the cav squadron and the infantry units. After a single initial barrage in support of the cav attack, they abandoned those mass-casualty producing weapons entirely. Had the batteries been positioned behind the anti-personnel ditch that protected the castle, they could have continued to execute both explosive and illumination fire missions. Yielding their indirect capabilities early left the infantry to fight alone, without the help of “stone rain.”

Speaking of which: The company deployed both heavy and light infantry, with their leadership in the front. This single line could merely slow the wave of enemy troops, while ensuring that allied leadership would be overwhelmed along with them. Forming their lines behind some protective obstacles would have ensured a longer defense.

Behind the infantry, the rear guard of the Unsullied ensured a defense in depth. And behind them, an anti-personnel ditch with chevaux de frise—anticavalry spikes—served as a protective obstacle before the outer wall of Winterfell. But placing this obstacle between the main body and the stronghold meant that a retreat would have to go through it, causing a choke point.

After the ditch came the walls, then the courtyard—filled with situational obstacles—protecting the inner courtyard and the crypt. Women and children had been moved to the crypt, in the mistaken belief that this area would be safe.

You might have noticed that we haven’t yet talked about the allied forces’ most powerful—and most misused—asset: close air support. At the outset, Daenerys Targaryen maintains two dragons for direct support to the ground defense and for air interdiction against the Night King’s single zombie-ice-dragon. While enjoying a two-to-one superiority in air assets, Daenerys attempts to use her dragons as multirole platforms, a risky move that means her forces cannot maximize their firepower on one single mission. This will eventually translate to ground commanders being denied close air support when they need it most.

Both Daenerys and Jon Snow fly initial sorties over allied lines, but neither attempts to conduct reconnaissance of enemy lines. Nor do they attempt to initiate first strike capabilities against the forces of the Night King. Both loiter over the area for far too long before becoming directly engaged. Soon enough, the White Walkers initiate a whiteout, forcing both dragons to disengage. Failure to properly establish friendly dragon-marking measures almost causes a green-on-green incident. Perhaps painting alternating white and black stripes on the wings—as the Allies did before D-Day in WWII—would have mitigated this confusion.

While unconventional, Arya's attack falls into the clear confines of the allies’ overall objective.

With intelligence failures, indirect capabilities lost, and the dragons experiencing white air, the full brunt of the attack now falls on the dismounted infantry. The undead quickly breach the first line of defense, then slam into the Unsullied, who fight a rear guard action to allow a rear passage of lines for the surviving infantry to attempt to flee to safety within the castle walls. At this point in the action, the ground fight is so obscured by bad weather that the fire-breathing air support cannot see the signal from the walls to ignite the anti-personnel ditch. With their primary plan unsuccessful, the allies move to their alternate plan of firing flaming arrows, which fails, and their contingency plan of runners, which also fails. As a last-ditch emergency effort, witch lady Melisandre finally activates the fire.

The lit ditches succeed in marking the lines for a dragon sortie, which incinerates undead along the entire perimeter. Finally, the allies have established an obstacle between themselves and the undead. However, an effective obstacle needs overwatch with direct and indirect fires. Although archers man the walls with direct overwatch of the fire-ditch, neither they nor the dragons engage the unmoving undead. This is a clear missed opportunity.

On the Night King’s signal, the undead breach the fire-trench the Soviet way: with their bodies. Only upon initiation of a successful breach do the defenders attempt to suppress the force. By then it is too late, and the assault force strikes the walls.

Sheer numbers, as well as one devastating sortie by the Night King and his dragon, are sufficient to breach the wall. The undead offensive now reaches the castle courtyard, where individuals or small groups conduct military operations in castle terrain, or MOCT. At this point in the operation, all tactics and strategy go out the window: it's every woman and man for themselves. Lady Lyanna Mormont neutralizes one enemy giant with a targeted strike on its ocular network, but falls in the attack herself.

In the skies, a dogfight—well, dragonfight—ensues, with the Night King making the unconventional choice to attack from below. The maneuver throws the friendly air force into confusion, and ultimately both Jon Snow and the Night King are forced to eject. With the Night King grounded, Daenerys rightly attempts a close air support strike against him. However, the battle damage assessment reveals that the strike was ineffective.

Snow then moves to encircle the Night King, who raises up an entirely new army from the dead and undead alike. As part of this action, the dead in the crypts and castle also come back to life as enemy combatants. With no security element placed in the crypts, the civilians and logistics stores become a vulnerable target.

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As if that isn’t bad enough, Daenerys Targaryen undergoes her own Blackhawk Down—or rather, gray dragon down—as she is forced down to fight on foot. Jon Snow gets pinned down by enemy dragon fire and cannot maneuver. At this juncture, the White Walkers and Night King infiltrate Winterfell and move on Bran, their High Payoff Target. The battle —what there was of one—is basically over. However, both sides have achieved their end states: The Night King has isolated Bran, while the allies have drawn the Night King out from amongst his forces to stand alone.

At this critical moment, Arya Stark follows the commander's intent: to neutralize the Night King. When she engages from above, the Night King blocks her effort, but does not see that this is merely a feint. Arya strikes from below, hitting the Night King’s vulnerable torso and killing him. The strike wipes out the White Walkers and the army of the undead, bringing victory out of sure defeat. While unconventional, Arya's attack falls into the clear confines of the allies’ overall objective, and she should be commended for taking the individual initiative to carry out the final plan.

Had the coalition of the living actually followed the fundamentals of engagement area development, they might have had a fighting chance. However, since their opponent could literally raise the dead, they had to rely instead on a dragon wing and a prayer of “not today.”

Angry Staff Officer is an officer in the Army National Guard and a member of the Military Writers Guild. He commissioned as an engineer officer after spending time as an enlisted infantryman. Angry Staff Officer blogs at www.angrystaffofficer.com and tweets at @pptsapper.

[TheFeniX]

Luck God Euron strikes again. Is this dude a faceless man? 3 hits on a flying Dragon with a Giant Crossbow at what.... almost a mile, on a rocking boat? And honestly, THAT I can buy because this show has become pretty much "luckout bullshit" the show. What I cannot buy, because it continues to happen SOLELY out of writers fiat, is the ambushes. Danny has already had her fleet ambushed (IN THE SAME AREA IIRC) once by Euron and she lost allies from Dorne and the Iron Islands. Yet she sails, midday, to Dragonstone and has ZERO scout ships to send ahead to make sure Mr. Pirate Man and his magic fleet of ships aren't there to ambush them, like fucking anyone with 3 brain-cells watching knew was going to happen.

Was anyone here actually surprised that happened? They've established over and over how magic this dude is on a boat.

They have no idea if there's anyone there to ambush them at Dragonstone. In fact, Cersei's smug face isn't deserved because she's STILL A moron for not having maybe 100 or so troops ready to ambush the exhausted and unarmed survivors on the beach, thus also nabbing Tyrion, Varys, pretty much anyone but Danny. But hey, Euron probably said "too easy, I have to give them a chance at winning to impress my Queen even more" after Meli fell into his lap when she jumped off the boat.

Also, since firing arcs are a thing, I would love to just see Danny on her last dragon fly straight down from the clouds and just burn the Red Keep to the ground, since the only real reason not to just got her heard chopped off. But that would probably be a dumb idea, but not dumb enough for Danny to consider it. Instead she'll throw wave after wave of (not even) her own men at them. We also have to have Clegane-bowl with Arya and Jamie fighting over who gets the Killing Blow on Cersei.

[The Romulan Republic]

Maybe the Drowned God does favors for his followers, just like the fire god does.

I did not like this episode. Gendry being in love with Arya and asking her to marry him after a one-night stand? Not buying it, unless we're supposed to be thinking that he was pining for her since she was a pre-pubescent girl. Yuck. And it looks like they're doing exactly what I feared- contriving a last minute plot to make Danny into the villain/insane so Jon can be king, to pander to the fan bashers who hate Danny because they just want their male power fantasy.

Missandei's death was one of the hardest of the series for me.

I did like Arya rejecting Gendry. Anything else would have been hopelessly out of character. I do like that they at least had some good arguments offered (mostly by Tyrion) on Danny's behalf.

Fuck Sansa.

Fuck Jaime.

Edit: My take on the whole storming King's Landing question? Do it. Deliberately killing civilians is wrong, but you're fighting a war- people are going to die, and you can't let terror tactics keep you from acting. Take the fucking city and be done with it. The longer you drag it out, the more people will die. But doing that makes Danny the bad guy, apparently, even though I guarantee a male character would be praised for being a "bad ass" HARD MAN if they did it.

Or, here's a thought- just let Arya sneak into the city and do her thing. Cersei's dead.