Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

[Knife]

The fact that she dies half-way through the film and contributes nothing to the ultimate victory but her death (okay, and backing the plan when it was first proposed), that her death feels contrived (really, the Stones can destroy and make an entire universe with a finger snap, but not bring back one person?), and that makes two of their biggest female characters who've died for that fucking Stone.

Its like, there's no one thing I can point to and say "this is awful." Its the aggregate of details, context, and earlier events in the series that make it not work for me.

She adds to the victory by getting the damned stone. The same stone that shown before, needed a sacrifice. That sacrifice was fought over by her and Clint, very much in agreement with their relationship previously established.

If anything was contrived, it was the 5 year bit with Tony's sudden has a daughter now so much preserve current timeline while bringing back old.

[FaxModem1]

I'm not sure what exactly you'd want, aside from Black Widow to either survive to the end of the film, because her dying is bad because of her genitals as opposed to Hawkeye biting it, or for there to be two funeral scenes at the end, one for Tony and one for Natasha, with maybe a statue to honor her?

Soul stone was established in the previous film to cost someone you love. Someone the audience knows, and presumably cares about, had to bite it. Who would you have killed off, and why is their death more deserving narratively than Natasha's?

[The Romulan Republic]

The fact that she dies half-way through the film and contributes nothing to the ultimate victory but her death (okay, and backing the plan when it was first proposed), that her death feels contrived (really, the Stones can destroy and make an entire universe with a finger snap, but not bring back one person?), and that makes two of their biggest female characters who've died for that fucking Stone.

Its like, there's no one thing I can point to and say "this is awful." Its the aggregate of details, context, and earlier events in the series that make it not work for me.

She adds to the victory by getting the damned stone. The same stone that shown before, needed a sacrifice. That sacrifice was fought over by her and Clint, very much in agreement with their relationship previously established.

If anything was contrived, it was the 5 year bit with Tony's sudden has a daughter now so much preserve current timeline while bringing back old.

Tony having a kid after five years in retirement, when he and Pepper were previously discussing having a kid, is hardly implausible.

But time travel is always hard to do well, and this was one of the more awkward and complicated time travel plots I've seen, outside of Moffat's arcs as head writer on Doctor Who.

[Solauren]

It's also possible that Captain America returning the Soul Stone, undid the sacrifice, and Natasha is alive, but in hiding, going back to pure undercover work.

Now, big question: What was Steve Rogers life like when he went back in time? How the hell did he and Peggy keep that quiet?
Did Peggy's niece know about the time travel? I mean, in effect, she was making out with her Uncle!

Did Steve manage to live the quiet life? He once said he couldn't just walk away from someone in trouble....

[Crazedwraith]

But time travel is always hard to do well, and this was one of the more awkward and complicated time travel plots I've seen, outside of Moffat's arcs as head writer on Doctor Who.

How so?

[FaxModem1]

It's also possible that Captain America returning the Soul Stone, undid the sacrifice, and Natasha is alive, but in hiding, going back to pure undercover work.

Now, big question: What was Steve Rogers life like when he went back in time? How the hell did he and Peggy keep that quiet?
Did Peggy's niece know about the time travel? I mean, in effect, she was making out with her Uncle!

Did Steve manage to live the quiet life? He once said he couldn't just walk away from someone in trouble....

Supposedly alternate universe, so he could have done anything he wanted. We're missing an entire film of Steve fighting Hydra with Peggy and an unbrainwashed Bucky Barnes throughout the 1950s.

[The Romulan Republic]

It's also possible that Captain America returning the Soul Stone, undid the sacrifice, and Natasha is alive, but in hiding, going back to pure undercover work.

That would be my hope, yes.

On the subject of returning the Stone: I can't be the only one annoyed that Cap ran into Red Skull again and it took place off-screen.

Now, big question: What was Steve Rogers life like when he went back in time? How the hell did he and Peggy keep that quiet?
Did Peggy's niece know about the time travel? I mean, in effect, she was making out with her Uncle!

Did Steve manage to live the quiet life? He once said he couldn't just walk away from someone in trouble....

I believe the directors said he created an alternate timeline with Peggy. Which irks me in kind of the same way Gamora coming back does- these aren't the characters we lost coming back/getting a reunion. Past whatever point the timelines diverged, they are in some sense different people, with different memories and experiences. Using clones to "replace" someone to allow for a happy ending is an old trope, of course, but its always feels creepy to me. Because you're treating what are essentially different people as interchangeable, so that their love interest can get a happy ending. If that's what happened, Cap isn't getting reunited with his one true love- he's screwing a woman who happens to look like her. Okay, that's obviously an oversimplification, because they'd have the same genes and up to a certain point the same experiences, but at some point their lives diverged, and these are unique people. There's something very dehumanizing to me about treating clones as interchangeable (and yes, I'd say the same if the clones were male characters, in case anyone's wondering, although it does always seem to be a female love interest who gets replaced by an identical substitute in these scenarios).

Two quotes come to mind:

"Killing your own clone is still murder."-Odo, Star Trek: Deep Space 9.

"A man is the sum of his memories, a Time Lord more so than most."-The Doctor (I don't recall which one, might have been Five).

The point being, each clone is a unique person, and having different memories makes them different people, even if they started out identical.

On a whole bunch of levels, the more I think about it, the Cap/Peggy ending is something that seems really sweet the first time you watch it, but makes less and less sense character-wise the more you think about it.

[The Romulan Republic]

It's also possible that Captain America returning the Soul Stone, undid the sacrifice, and Natasha is alive, but in hiding, going back to pure undercover work.

Now, big question: What was Steve Rogers life like when he went back in time? How the hell did he and Peggy keep that quiet?
Did Peggy's niece know about the time travel? I mean, in effect, she was making out with her Uncle!

Did Steve manage to live the quiet life? He once said he couldn't just walk away from someone in trouble....

Supposedly alternate universe, so he could have done anything he wanted. We're missing an entire film of Steve fighting Hydra with Peggy and an unbrainwashed Bucky Barnes throughout the 1950s.

I do want to see that movie, I admit.

[Coop D'etat]

Widow's arc in the Avengers doesn't end where I would have put it, I would have contrived to have her be the leader of the next team after Cap hangs it up, as she was the one who most indentified with being on the team and she's a natural successor to the role Fury played.

But how it ended ending was completely fine. She starts out the murderous tool of bad people's agenda, switches sides and views her past life as "red in her ledger" and is haunted by the idea that she won't be able to do enough good to make up for the ills she had done, then ends with her being in control and making her own choices and freely chooses an act that by itself should equal her perceived debts all by itself. Its a perfectly fine character arc and she was hardly short changed in the process. Black Widow ended up about equally 2nd tier behind the big three in the Avengers series as the Hulk was (on balance, probably had Natasha probably had more emphasis than Banner did). The whole thing was entirely acceptable and decently well done.

[Knife]

Tony having a kid after five years in retirement, when he and Pepper were previously discussing having a kid, is hardly implausible.

But time travel is always hard to do well, and this was one of the more awkward and complicated time travel plots I've seen, outside of Moffat's arcs as head writer on Doctor Who.

Not my point.

By putting that new life in there for Tony, it made the time travel bit even more complicated that it had to be for the audience to follow. They had to bring the past back while preserving the new future. That Tony and Peeper could have a kid in 5 years is fine. That they did, wrote it into the story so Tony has a reason not to go, then decides to go but insists he keeps his future kid while bringing the past back is the contrived bit.

I get in the end, they pretty much said you don't get both as he dies. But still, made a complicated thing more complicated for very little payoff.

[Solauren]

But still, made a complicated thing more complicated for very little payoff.

I believe you just summarized every major comic book character, story arc, and series, to date.

[Gandalf]

I think they finally worked out that there's not many places to take Black Widow's character, so having her sacrifice herself so that Hawkeye could live at least sort of makes sense.

Also, Hawkeye being Punisher seemed really cool as an idea.

Oh btw after reading some other reactions and given our conversation about AoU the other week, do you think this is supposed to reinforced the idea BW's life is worth less than Clint's because she's infertile and has no family?

I mean, Clint obviously didn't think so but how the movie turned out...

Sorry for the slow reply. Stuff got away from me. But that was certainly how I read it, especially as they open with Hawkeye losing his family as an intro to the story.

I'm not sure what exactly you'd want, aside from Black Widow to either survive to the end of the film, because her dying is bad because of her genitals as opposed to Hawkeye biting it, or for there to be two funeral scenes at the end, one for Tony and one for Natasha, with maybe a statue to honor her?

Maybe a funeral for the two of them at once? Or something that properly acknowledges her role as an Avenger as opposed to someone for whom their two biggest character moments are calling herself a monster because she can't have children, and then killing herself for the guy with children?

[FaxModem1]

I'm not sure what exactly you'd want, aside from Black Widow to either survive to the end of the film, because her dying is bad because of her genitals as opposed to Hawkeye biting it, or for there to be two funeral scenes at the end, one for Tony and one for Natasha, with maybe a statue to honor her?

Maybe a funeral for the two of them at once? Or something that properly acknowledges her role as an Avenger as opposed to someone for whom their two biggest character moments are calling herself a monster because she can't have children, and then killing herself for the guy with children?

Yeah, all of them toasting a drink to her or something would have been nice.

[Gandalf]

It wouldn't have been hard to tie together the two funerals, considering the duality between the two characters. Both started as monstrous figures and eventually got better.

[LadyTevar]

I will be honest -- I do not think returning the Soul Stone returns the soul that bought it.

Whether you read this as Equivalent Exchange (soul for Soul), or as Faustian Bargain, you've still sacrificed the One You Love for Power. There was nothing that said you get them back when you decide you don't want the Power anymore. If it was that easy, why would it be a sacrifice?

This is why there's Tropes about the dangers of making Bargains for Power, and why they all end in tragedy.

[Gandalf]

It would be pretty fucking ridiculous if you could return the stone for the soul you used to purchase it. It goes from an act of sacrifice to pawning something.

[The Romulan Republic]

Agreed.

Honestly, I don't know about all the Stones (though they're all clearly dangerous), but I'd definitely classify the Soul Stone as basically malevolent/black magic. Things that demand sacrifices of sapient beings generally are.

A random morbid question that occurred to me- was there a reason why Hawkeye couldn't bring Black Widow's body back with him? Either to try to heal/resuscitate her or, if we assume that Red Skull is telling the truth and it really is absolutely irreversible death (likely, if the Gauntlet couldn't do it), then so she at least got a proper burial rather than being left on Vormir?

That one's not a huge thing or anything- it didn't even occur to me I don't think when I first watched it. But still.

[FaxModem1]

Agreed.

Honestly, I don't know about all the Stones (though they're all clearly dangerous), but I'd definitely classify the Soul Stone as basically malevolent/black magic. Things that demand sacrifices of sapient beings generally are.

A random morbid question that occurred to me- was there a reason why Hawkeye couldn't bring Black Widow's body back with him? Either to try to heal/resuscitate her or, if we assume that Red Skull is telling the truth and it really is absolutely irreversible death (likely, if the Gauntlet couldn't do it), then so she at least got a proper burial rather than being left on Vormir?

That one's not a huge thing or anything- it didn't even occur to me I don't think when I first watched it. But still.

I hope so. They could conceivably get some new Pym particles to retrieve the body now that Hank Pym is back. But it really depends on where the body goes after they get the stone, as both Thanos and Hawkeye teleported to some weird puddle area. Maybe the body is consumed? And if they can return

[The Romulan Republic]

No, we get a shot of Natasha lying at the bottom of the cliff. Same as Gamora.

[GuppyShark]

I believe the directors said he created an alternate timeline with Peggy. Which irks me in kind of the same way Gamora coming back does- these aren't the characters we lost coming back/getting a reunion. Past whatever point the timelines diverged, they are in some sense different people, with different memories and experiences. Using clones to "replace" someone to allow for a happy ending is an old trope, of course, but its always feels creepy to me. Because you're treating what are essentially different people as interchangeable, so that their love interest can get a happy ending. If that's what happened, Cap isn't getting reunited with his one true love- he's screwing a woman who happens to look like her. Okay, that's obviously an oversimplification, because they'd have the same genes and up to a certain point the same experiences, but at some point their lives diverged, and these are unique people. There's something very dehumanizing to me about treating clones as interchangeable (and yes, I'd say the same if the clones were male characters, in case anyone's wondering, although it does always seem to be a female love interest who gets replaced by an identical substitute in these scenarios).

There is literally nothing false or fake about the Peggy Carter who gets to live out her life with Steve Rogers. It is just as authentic a reality as the one we saw in the MCU and the TV show. There is no such thing as a 'real' or 'true' reality the moment you allow there to be multiples.

[K. A. Pital]

So most the useless character in „Avengers“ („Russian defector“ with a ridiculously comical surname belonging to the idiot royal family that plunged Russia into WWI while they were having parties and hunted lil cats and shit, and got killed eventually by the people, and which sounds like a cheap shit vodka brand, and a first name which itself became an offensive trope down South because people started calling any Russian woman „Natasha“ implying she‘s a prostitute) got offed.

*smallest violin*

Murcans should stick to depicting themselves. Although Elon Musk... sorry; Tony Lord of War Stark - also got offed. Franchise-weary, he was, I guess.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I'd have thought the rules might have been different since both Widow and Hawkeye fought over who would make the fall- Hawkeye did jump but Widow stopped him. If they'd both fallen, who would have claimed the soul stone? Because they went willingly instead of being thrown as Gamora was, does that change things?

I hadn't thought about that, but it would have been cool to have Cap meet Red Skull again; some people had theorised that it would be Cap who sacrificed himself instead of Tony since it was the last film for both of them (who would then claim the stone?). And of course, you have to wonder what became of Skull once his role as stone-keeper was fulfilled.

[NeoGoomba]

I'm wondering if, since (As)Guardians of the Galaxy 3 will be about finding Gamora if they don't do some Soul Stone fuckery to "merge" the two Gamoras together or some shit. If they are going to introduce Adam Warlock, which is what a ton of speculation says, his primary focus was the Soul Gem (when he wasn't sitting around with the entire gauntlet).

Also I'm kind of hoping Black Widow's stand-alone isn't just some simple prequel nonsense, but somehow a continuation of what the hell she is going through as a Soul Stone sacrifice.

And I am super interested to see what the world is like as presented in Far From Home, as the newest trailer confirms it is after Endgame.

All that said, I think I'm probably done with Marvel films. It was one hell of a ride but, aside from Thor, there really isn't too much that can hold my attention anymore.

[LadyTevar]

I hadn't thought about that, but it would have been cool to have Cap meet Red Skull again; some people had theorised that it would be Cap who sacrificed himself instead of Tony since it was the last film for both of them (who would then claim the stone?). And of course, you have to wonder what became of Skull once his role as stone-keeper was fulfilled.

Who says it's Fulfilled? In Theory, as long as there someone willing to sacrifice a loved one's soul, there will be a Soul Stone.

Also, why Hawkeye didn't go get the body -- remember, both he and Thanos 'woke up' in a pond miles from the mountain, with the Stone in hand. They didn't get the chance to go back. In fact, do we know if those who make the bargain CAN go back to the mountain?

[The Romulan Republic]

So most the useless character in „Avengers“ („Russian defector“ with a ridiculously comical surname belonging to the idiot royal family that plunged Russia into WWI while they were having parties and hunted lil cats and shit, and got killed eventually by the people, and which sounds like a cheap shit vodka brand, and a first name which itself became an offensive trope down South because people started calling any Russian woman „Natasha“ implying she‘s a prostitute) got offed.

*smallest violin*

Murcans should stick to depicting themselves. Although Elon Musk... sorry; Tony Lord of War Stark - also got offed. Franchise-weary, he was, I guess.

So do you hate Black Widow because she's a defector, because she shares a name with some historical assholes, or because she has a name that might make some people think of prostitutes?

All of those are pretty petty and prejudiced reasons, I'm just wondering which it is. Or is it all of the above?

I'm wondering if, since (As)Guardians of the Galaxy 3 will be about finding Gamora if they don't do some Soul Stone fuckery to "merge" the two Gamoras together or some shit. If they are going to introduce Adam Warlock, which is what a ton of speculation says, his primary focus was the Soul Gem (when he wasn't sitting around with the entire gauntlet).

Also I'm kind of hoping Black Widow's stand-alone isn't just some simple prequel nonsense, but somehow a continuation of what the hell she is going through as a Soul Stone sacrifice.

And I am super interested to see what the world is like as presented in Far From Home, as the newest trailer confirms it is after Endgame.

All that said, I think I'm probably done with Marvel films. It was one hell of a ride but, aside from Thor, there really isn't too much that can hold my attention anymore.

What Guardians III should be: Black Widow and Gamora unite in the Soul Realm, deal with various alternate dimension monsters (maybe other beings who sacrificed themselves for the stone over the ages), and get rescued from the Soul Realm at the end by the Guardians.

I'll likely stick around for Guardians (which tends to be fun, plus I want to see if they really go that way and acknowledge that the two Gamoras are separate people), and the Black Widow film for obvious reasons. Might go to a Black Panther or Captain Marvel film to spite the Alt. Reich, if I can spare the time and money.

That's all that interests me. Spiderman? Nope. Strange? Not really. Antman... I found the second film a bit over done, and the character isn't that engaging beyond the resizing gimicks. And they've pretty much eliminated the others, though maybe they'll bring some new ones in soon.