Game Of Thrones: Final Season --SPOILERS!

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm not the only one who thinks this episode's treatment of Danny was a crock of shit:

https://time.com/5583559/game-of-throne ... going-mad/

BY ELIANA DOCKTERMAN
12:15 AM EDT
Warning: This story contains spoilers for Game of Thrones.

After last week’s long-hyped Battle of Winterfell, fans had absolutely no idea what would happen in this week’s episode of Game of Thrones. But after “The Last of the Starks,” the future of the show has come into sharp focus: Daenerys is getting a villain edit.

Perhaps in an effort to even the playing field between the Dragon Queen and Cersei, the showrunners have depleted her military forces, taken out another one of her dragons, killed two of her closest advisors and prompted another two to scheme against her. This could result in a heroic comeback for Daenerys: She thrives when she’s at her lowest, like when she first emerged from that fire with her dragons or when she burned all the Khals holding her captive.

But things are different this time — because now she’s apparently losing her mind as well, just like her father, Mad King Aerys. Some of her “paranoia” can be chalked up to simple sexism: Any woman would be annoyed if a group of men were celebrating the fact that her boyfriend rode a dragon when she’s been riding one for years. Show some respect.

Still, Daenerys has been giving off Mad Queen vibes ever since she burnt up Sam’s father and brother when they wouldn’t bend the knee last season. And in the first few episodes of season 8 she has glowered at anyone allying themselves with Jon, who she says she loves.

Arya and Sansa in particular seem determined to make a villain of the Dragon Queen. Daenerys has thus far refused to allow the North to rule itself — which would involve breaking with longstanding tradition and set a dangerous precedent in Westeros for any other kingdom that sought independence. But the rift between the Stark sisters and Daenerys has some fans theorizing that Arya will take out Daenerys, fulfilling the Red Woman’s prophecy that she would close brown, green and blue eyes. (What color are Daenerys’ eyes? You guessed it: green.)

Tyrion and Varys have the same conversation twice in the same episode about whether Daenerys is fit to rule. “She does not like to have her authority questioned,” Varys tells Tyrion. “I’m worried about her state of mind.” When Tyrion suggests that Daenerys and Jon could rule together, Varys rebuts that Dany is too strong for Jon, both failing to give Jon his due and adding a healthy dose of sexism into his argument.

Dany even finds herself begging Jon not to reveal his true identity to anyone. A generous interpretation of that scene is that she is more comfortable with Jon than anybody else in he life. More likely she’s just desperate to maintain her claim to the Iron Throne. It’s a new sensation for Daenerys and it doesn’t look particularly good on her. Nor does it bode well for her in Game of Thrones’ final two episodes. She started out wanting to free the world of tyrants but in the process has become one. “Do not become what you have always struggled to defeat,” Varys warns her.

For some fans, the decision to cast Daenerys as an evil queen feels like an unearned turn in the story. Since the first season, Daenerys has been determined to sit on the Iron Throne. But never has she been so singleminded so as to alienate — and cause fear in — her closest allies. She was, after all, the Breaker of Chains, the woman who was going to break the wheel.

In order to keep the parallel plot lines going, the show presented Daenerys as an unabashed hero for seven seasons. She and Jon proved the most popular heroes to cheer for — not only because they cheated death but because they spent time with those who weren’t like them and learned to understand them. They saved the exiled and enslaved. Now, with just a few episodes left, the writers are determined to tear her down.

The show seems to have abandoned the notion that Daenerys could be a harbinger of change. “Have you ever considered the best ruler would be someone who doesn’t want to rule?” Varys asks Tyrion, not-so-subtly suggesting Jon would make a better king.

This idea of a ruler who has leadership thrust upon him — and it’s almost always a him — has been an ideal of mythology and history in Western culture for eons: Moses, Aeneas, Cincinnatus, George Washington, Harry Potter, Frodo Baggins — they all came to their heroic roles begrudgingly and therefore, in the eyes of their stories, more honestly. Jon is written in that mold.

That makes Daenerys his power hungry foil. There’s an additional layer of latent sexism to be analyzed here too: Cersei and Daenerys are two power hungry women, literally evil queens in fairytale parlance.

What has always been so arresting about Game of Thrones is its ability to subvert the tropes of fantasy and genre. It’s rare that someone on the show (or the Song of Ice and Fire books) has ever been truly good or evil. But the final episodes seem to have simplified historically complicated characters: Men like Theon and Jaime have been redeemed; Jon Snow looks to be the obvious choice for a selfless king; and now Daenerys and Cersei are prepared to kill one another — and thousands in the process — in their hunt for power.

And parentage has never mattered on the show — until it became the only thing that mattered. “Cripples, bastards and broken things” found their way to center stage over the last eight seasons, despite often being rejected by their parents (think disowned men and bastards like Tyrion, Sam, Gendry and Jon). Jon, Tyrion and Daenerys in particular all struggled to not carry on their parents’ legacies and differentiate themselves from their forebears in some way.

But now suddenly lineage is crucial to the story again: Gendry becomes a lord because his father was Robert Baratheon; Jon could inherit the throne because his secret is out; and Daenerys seems doomed to become a paranoid replica of her father.

Do the showrunners have another trick up their sleeve? It almost seems too obvious at this point for Daenerys to follow in her father’s footsteps and become the Mad Queen. With just two more episodes to go, there has to be another way.

Write to Eliana Dockterman at eliana.dockterman@time.com.

This season has been all about pandering and fan service. Mark my words- this episode was a sop thrown to the misogynist element of the fandom, the ones for whom the world of Game of Thrones, where women are routinely raped and traded like chattel, is not a dystopia- its wish fulfillment. I hope I'm wrong and this is a misdirect for a last-minute subversion, but right now I fully expect a simplified "Mad Queen" Danaerys to be rushed in and quickly killed off at the last moment so a more deserving penis can ascend to the Iron Throne.

And if that happens, I will declare everything past Episode III of this season (and possibly beyond that) non-canon. I said it before: I would honestly rather Danny died with her character intact. It would still be suck, killing her off so that Jon has a clear path to the throne. But it would suck just a little less than character-assassinating her first.

[The Romulan Republic]

Oh, and some possible Sansa/Hound ship-teasing too, because apparently they haven't canonized enough creepy ships to suck the fan fic writers' dicks.

[Vympel]

Just finished the episode.

Notwithstanding my misgivings about Bullshit-Aimbot-Rhaegal-Surprise-Death* - I quite liked the episode. Thoughts!

- The opening funeral scene was really moving
- Ghost is a wounded good boy!
- Jon's speech was really great
- The feast scene played the awkwardness and tension really well, especially Dany's obvious isolation and the praise heaped on Jon to the exclusion of her
- Gendry Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End! The kind of thing everyone assumed would be forgotten in the mad dash to the end
- What was up with Sansa's look at Tyrion after Gendry was legitimised? Concern that she just made an ally, most likely?
- Davos believes in the LoL, and hates him
- Nice touch from Bran re: the wheelchair design
- Sansa and the Hound finally sharing another scene was nice
- So obvious Gendry - Lord of Zero Chill - would be denied. Arya true to her Season 1 self
- Brienne and Jaime were very sweet together
- The scene between Dany and Jon re: her asking him to keep the secret was so good. The different layers to their relationship all mixed up in some wonderful conflict and dysfunction
- War planning: ok so it didn't seem like <4,000 Unsullied survived, but ok
- The new Prince of Dorne? Who? As if we'll find out.
- The siege plan is solid.
- I like that both Sansa and Dany have a point in the argument. Neither of them are entirely wrong. Jon deciding the issue Dany's way was an obvious reference to him cementing his position in the discussion they had in his room the night before.
- Fuck's sake, of course Sansa breaks her promise in two seconds flat. Didn't think she'd keep it for a second. This is politics.
- The Bronn bit was kind of random, I'm not sure how they'll pay it off or even if they will
- Arya's unfinished business in King's Landing: oh god, please don't have her kill Cersei
- It's good that they played up Rhaegal's wounds and that he wasn't fully healed
- Sansa and Tyrion's conversation was great
- Sucks that Ghost didn't get a proper goodbye
- Varys and Tyrion's conversation on the ship - and later on Dragonstone - was gold standard old school early GOT dialog. *chef's kiss*
- The scenes at Dragonstone - again - excellent. (And I like it how they point out Jon and the bulk of their forces is 2 weeks away)
- What is Varys going to do? How?
- Not sure how to feel about Jaime. Is he going to try and save her, or is he going to end her?
- That ending. Bye Missandei.

*That Euron bullshit

I said earlier in the thread that where presented a choice between suspense and surprise, GOT chooses surprise everytime, even when it doesn't make a lick of sense. This was one of those times. As noted in the thread before, there's so many different ways you could've done this scene so that it actually wasn't contrived, but that would ruin the shock, so they went with aimbot Ironborn ballistae.

'Mad' Queen Dany

Notwithstanding that I hate this idea a lot - it just rubs me the wrong way and its not the story I want at all - I was impressed at how well this episode sold how dangerous Dany can be if she goes 'wrong'. I don't like the 'lol she's mad' construction, but the less extreme 'bad ruler who thinks something is her destiny and is increasingly likely to spill a lot of blood to get it' is more acceptable, and so many of the scenes showed Dany as someone who is isolated, grieving, suffering, and under increasing emotional strain.

I'm not the only one who thinks this episode's treatment of Danny was a crock of shit:

This season has been all about pandering and fan service. Mark my words- this episode was a sop thrown to the misogynist element of the fandom, the ones for whom the world of Game of Thrones, where women are routinely raped and traded like chattel, is not a dystopia- its wish fulfillment. I hope I'm wrong and this is a misdirect for a last-minute subversion, but right now I fully expect a simplified "Mad Queen" Danaerys to be rushed in and quickly killed off at the last moment so a more deserving penis can ascend to the Iron Throne.

And if that happens, I will declare everything past Episode III of this season (and possibly beyond that) non-canon. I said it before: I would honestly rather Danny died with her character intact. It would still be suck, killing her off so that Jon has a clear path to the throne. But it would suck just a little less than character-assassinating her first.

Anything that happens to Dany this season - her final fate - will be because GRRM told the writers that would happen - in some form. The idea that this is some sort of misogynist plot that's appeared fully formed out of the show is not credible. No matter how much I might personally dislike it (and I do), the article's assertion that Dany has been an unambiguous hero for 7 seasons and this is some sort of late change is questionable. This isn't coming out of nowhere.

Also just because characters are talking about it doesn't mean the show is actually selling Jon as the better ruler, or setting him up to be King, either.

I just hope they pull off whatever they're doing in an organic way that makes sense, whether I'm happy with the character's fate or not.

[NeoGoomba]

I loved Bronn's bit. That was probably the closest he'll come to admitting he likes those two, and damn Jerome Flynn rules.

Also Pod getting TWO ladies at once felt as earned as anything else on this show haha.

Pretty sure Jamie is going to try and shank Cersei, even if it kills him. His self-loathing won't let him stay with Brienne, and it is all tied up with Cersei, so I think he's going to try and close the circle.

And yeah, them planning the siege was one of the first bits of actual. intelligent strategy they've shown on the show since Blackwater.

My wife kept saying, "Damn, she has CRAZY EYES" every time Dany lost it. I'm also glad Varys and Tyrion are aware of her zealousness, but I'm afraid it will get Varys killed in the end.

I wish I knew how dragonfire worked, because I really did expect Euron to buy it when Dany zoomed at him. Do the dragons just breathe fire, or are they spewing a napalm-like stuff? Because I figured a diving dragon shooting their breath forwards at a wooden vessel would render any kind of "bleed-off" of flame moot if they catch the sails.

[Elfdart]

*That Euron bullshit

I said earlier in the thread that where presented a choice between suspense and surprise, GOT chooses surprise everytime, even when it doesn't make a lick of sense. This was one of those times. As noted in the thread before, there's so many different ways you could've done this scene so that it actually wasn't contrived, but that would ruin the shock, so they went with aimbot Ironborn ballistae.

It would have made more sense if the bolt-throwers were on the ground inside Dragonstone, waiting for the dragons to land. But the whole idea of going to Dragonstone makes no fucking sense. Euron's fleet is still out there and dividing your own forces is idiotic. I assumed Cersei would have already taken Dragonstone while Danerys' forces had all gone north anyway, so what's the point of taking such a risk? Oh, and this pooch-screw can't be blamed on Tyrion like the others.

'Mad' Queen Dany

Notwithstanding that I hate this idea a lot - it just rubs me the wrong way and its not the story I want at all - I was impressed at how well this episode sold how dangerous Dany can be if she goes 'wrong'. I don't like the 'lol she's mad' construction, but the less extreme 'bad ruler who thinks something is her destiny and is increasingly likely to spill a lot of blood to get it' is more acceptable, and so many of the scenes showed Dany as someone who is isolated, grieving, suffering, and under increasing emotional strain.

Danerys has always been psycho, at least since she promised her remaining followers in Season 1 that their enemies would all die screaming as she carried out human sacrifice. She's just Stannis in hot chick form. Aside from being cute, her redeeming quality is that the forces opposed to her are so much worse (Slavers, Deadites) and people are hoping she can crush them. Well, as her forces dwindle (including two of her sane advisors) her chances of crushing anyone are going downhill, too. So what you have left is a queen whose first instinct is to burn people and has to be talked down from this constantly -and it isn't encouraging, no matter how much Emilia Clarke bats her adorable eyelashes.

That said, at this point Danerys should consider a bunch on Napalm strikes from directly above (there's at best a 45-degree elevation on those ballistas) either on Euron's ships (or just drop huge rocks on them from high altitude) so she can besiege King's Landing, or on one or more of the AA-towers -or better still on the docks so freight can't be loaded or unloaded. In other words, starve out the city or burn them out. But she could have done that a season ago.

As a side note, when did "earned" become part of the jargon used in discussing fictional characters or stories?

[Ziggy Stardust]

While there were some nice character moments in the episode (seems to be the only thing the show can get right these days), it is once again undermined by the lazy and confounding writing choices.

1) John literally has nothing to say to Arya, who killed the friggin' Night King? His entire mission for years? His only interaction with her is revealing his parentage.

2) In all of the grand strategy discussions, they are trying to figure out how to kill Cersei without destroying King's Landing. Not a single person in the room thinks, "Hey, why don't we try to use the magical super-assassin we have on our team, who already wants to kill Cersei anyway? And oh, hey, look, we also have on our team the guy with a grudge against Cersei's personal bodyguard." Why would none of them think of that? Like, we lay siege to the castle and Arya goes in to try to kill Cersei, in the meantime we keep up a blockade so even if that doesn't work we still have the upper hand.

3) They really downplayed the events of last episode. When they were going over how many troops they had left, they explicitly said they still have more than Cersei, but now it was "almost even". And that they still have at least half of the Unsullied and Dothraki left. After we literally saw them get destroyed almost to a man. I get that you can make the argument that there are always soldiers fighting off-screen we don't really see, but they basically hand-waved away the White Walkers as a major threat. They were treating it more as a distraction that left their soldiers tired than they did as a major confrontation that killed thousands.

4) As other's have said, everything about Euron's ambush was poorly handled. If you watched the "after the episode", Benioff literally said that Dany had "forgotten about the Iron Fleet," which was why they were caught by surprise. Which is just about the laziest writing excuse you can use for a plot choice that doesn't make sense. That's basically the problem of seasons 7 and 8 of the show in a nutshell; the showrunners are more concerned with making sure the plot gets the characters to the place they want them without any regard for whether the things that happen on the way make any sense at all.

5) Why didn't Cersei just try to kill them all right at the end of the episode? Since when is Cersei someone honorable enough to respect a parlay as something non-violent, and let her enemies leave in order to prepare for an Honorable Battle? Dany didn't have her army there, was hideously outnumbered, and was just standing there within arm's throw of the city walls with thousands of bows and dozens of giant ballistas aimed directly at her, and her greatest weapon was also just sitting there on the ground. Well, the answer is because the showrunners wanted the dramatic scene of Dany witnessing Missandei's execution, and didn't give a flying fuck about whether or not it would make sense.

[FireNexus]

I thought they had like twice as many troops? So if it’s even they lost half their number.

[Vendetta]

Anything that happens to Dany this season - her final fate - will be because GRRM told the writers that would happen - in some form. The idea that this is some sort of misogynist plot that's appeared fully formed out of the show is not credible. No matter how much I might personally dislike it (and I do), the article's assertion that Dany has been an unambiguous hero for 7 seasons and this is some sort of late change is questionable. This isn't coming out of nowhere.

I suspect that the writers have gotten what amounts to the back-of-a-cigarette-packet version of something that GRRM was vaguely planning for but hadn't put even any bone on the vague outline of bones of yet because at the current rate he won't reach A Dream of Spring until 2030.

I think it's very unlikely that the outcome of the books will resemble this in any but the vaguest sense.

[TheFeniX]

I did not like this episode. Gendry being in love with Arya and asking her to marry him after a one-night stand? Not buying it, unless we're supposed to be thinking that he was pining for her since she was a pre-pubescent girl. Yuck. And it looks like they're doing exactly what I feared- contriving a last minute plot to make Danny into the villain/insane so Jon can be king, to pander to the fan bashers who hate Danny because they just want their male power fantasy.

He just got his father's name, holdings. Before that, he just fought off the Scourge. He's drunk, probably head above the clouds. Arya's a lady, he's now a Lord, she's the last woman he had sex with. I mean, for a Lord "had sex with my future wife and I have SOME feelings for her" is probably the healthiest lead-up to a Noble wedding Westeros has.

If something made sense at all in these last few episodes: that would be it. Now, Arya saying "yes" would have made me throw my hands up and say "well, ya fuckin' ruined it." But, that was one of the FEW scenes that made me feel like the show still had some soul.

And asking if someone (man or woman) can think (or maybe be, I don't know) they are in love with someone after a one-night-stand? Have you actually interacted with young people from your species?

4) As other's have said, everything about Euron's ambush was poorly handled. If you watched the "after the episode", Benioff literally said that Dany had "forgotten about the Iron Fleet," which was why they were caught by surprise. Which is just about the laziest writing excuse you can use for a plot choice that doesn't make sense. That's basically the problem of seasons 7 and 8 of the show in a nutshell; the showrunners are more concerned with making sure the plot gets the characters to the place they want them without any regard for whether the things that happen on the way make any sense at all.

I couldn't be bothered to watch it: but are you fucking kidding me? She FORGOT about the fleet? You know what, I'll let that go. She's got a lot on her mind. Damn, if only she had like 50 fucking advisors to say "Hey, we might want to be careful here."

See, I honestly let a lot of small shit go. But when garbage like this affect MAJOR plot points, there's no excuse. This is specifically why Melli's death got a "pfft" out of me. Because there's no tension when the lead-up to something is so contrived because it reminds me I'm watching fiction when I see something that is very clearly: "I got this cool idea for a scene, might win us awards, get to that scene: HOWEVER YOU HAVE TOOO!"

5) Why didn't Cersei just try to kill them all right at the end of the episode? Since when is Cersei someone honorable enough to respect a parlay as something non-violent, and let her enemies leave in order to prepare for an Honorable Battle? Dany didn't have her army there, was hideously outnumbered, and was just standing there within arm's throw of the city walls with thousands of bows and dozens of giant ballistas aimed directly at her, and her greatest weapon was also just sitting there on the ground. Well, the answer is because the showrunners wanted the dramatic scene of Dany witnessing Missandei's execution, and didn't give a flying fuck about whether or not it would make sense.

I thought the exact same thing. At the least, I would have expected her to kill Tyrion. She's pulled so much shit, no one is going to even shrug if she breaks parlay, especially if it was just to kill "The Imp."

[Nari]

4) As other's have said, everything about Euron's ambush was poorly handled. If you watched the "after the episode", Benioff literally said that Dany had "forgotten about the Iron Fleet," which was why they were caught by surprise. Which is just about the laziest writing excuse you can use for a plot choice that doesn't make sense. That's basically the problem of seasons 7 and 8 of the show in a nutshell; the showrunners are more concerned with making sure the plot gets the characters to the place they want them without any regard for whether the things that happen on the way make any sense at all.

I couldn't be bothered to watch it: but are you fucking kidding me? She FORGOT about the fleet? You know what, I'll let that go. She's got a lot on her mind. Damn, if only she had like 50 fucking advisors to say "Hey, we might want to be careful here."

See, I honestly let a lot of small shit go. But when garbage like this affect MAJOR plot points, there's no excuse. This is specifically why Melli's death got a "pfft" out of me. Because there's no tension when the lead-up to something is so contrived because it reminds me I'm watching fiction when I see something that is very clearly: "I got this cool idea for a scene, might win us awards, get to that scene: HOWEVER YOU HAVE TOOO!"

I'm very glad that I've given up on the interminable "After the Episode"s. Watching that would have made me very unhappy; it's clear that they wanted her down to 1 Dragon, so something had to happen without a whole lot of thought being put into it. And even if she 'forgot', did John also
forget, and they also just didn't see the ships until they were in Ballistae range? Any everyone else forgot about being ambushed in that same area?
And I guess the God of the Ocean (or whoever the Ironborn worship) must be laying a finger on the scales, as I'd assume it's kind of difficult to train people to shoot moving airborne targets in Westeros, due to the lack of airborne targets of any useful size. Maybe there was a huge clay pigeon shooter off screen.

It's also super unclear how Cersei even managed to grab Missandai and not get or slaughter anyone else. The Ironborn just grabbed the 'skif', even though Dany's fleet is clearly just offshore and you could (in armor) swim from the fleet to the shore? I'm seeing Dorn-levels of plot convenience there unfortunately.

4) As other's have said, everything about Euron's ambush was poorly handled. If

5) Why didn't Cersei just try to kill them all right at the end of the episode? Since when is Cersei someone honorable enough to respect a parlay as something non-violent, and let her enemies leave in order to prepare for an Honorable Battle? Dany didn't have her army there, was hideously outnumbered, and was just standing there within arm's throw of the city walls with thousands of bows and dozens of giant ballistas aimed directly at her, and her greatest weapon was also just sitting there on the ground. Well, the answer is because the showrunners wanted the dramatic scene of Dany witnessing Missandei's execution, and didn't give a flying fuck about whether or not it would make sense.

I thought the exact same thing. At the least, I would have expected her to kill Tyrion. She's pulled so much shit, no one is going to even shrug if she breaks parlay, especially if it was just to kill "The Imp."

I had a very JJ Abrams 'problem with scale' moment with that scene. The last dragon looks like he's well within range of what we've seen the ballistae being able to reach (unless the naval variant is more powerful), and I'd say those columns of unsullied would be like Napoleonic era troops against cannonballs; the main difference being that there's plenty of cannons and not a whole lot of columns.

I also thought that Tyrion was dead meat. It would have been well in character for Cersei as well as making, you know, sense if you're going to execute your hostage as well.

[PREDATOR490]

As it stands. Game Of Thrones has gone to shit this season.

I was never that much a fan of this series from the beginning to due a strong dislike of the author writing mentality but at least his style was reasonably constructed and consistent. The first two episodes were little more than shuffling the characters around for the final setup before the pitiful attempt to finish this series.

The overwhelming impression I am getting from this season is that the character interaction scenes are doing well due to nostalgia but without that this season is pathetic. When it comes to actually telling a story and playing with these characters, it seems like a severe lack of ability is coming through.
This is even more obnoxious because the narrative imperative that seems to be driving this season is "everything must go" to the point characters and dragons are being pissed away in extremely contrived means.

If they wanted to kill a dragon then they could have done so in a much better way.
Even if you want to pull the "They forgot" about the fleet... how the fuck do you justify Dany completely missing an enemy fleet that was in perfect formation ?
That scene could have been a lot more appropriate if Dany had spotted the fleet, attempted a foolish charge and then had one of the Dragons getting popped.

This scene is even more stupid because EVERYONE on that fleet should be dead or captured. Dany was driven off and the remaining survivors have no support. Eurons fleet is within firing range of that beach and should have more than enough capability to kill anyone that got to shore.

Instead, they kill the dragon, capture a key adviser and then fuck off home because... that is enough for one episode is it guys ?

I cannot fathom the stupidity of the final scene - Ceseri has been shown to be batshit crazy and beyond ruthless at taking any advantage. Dany literally marches a pathetic force to her front gate with no support and in a position for them to be obliterated easily... and Ceseri lets that slide ?

[NecronLord]

A substantially better suggestion than 'she forgot about the fleet' is that Varys disclosed their route in the hope of ensuring that she would be killed in the ambush.

[TheFeniX]

A substantially better suggestion than 'she forgot about the fleet' is that Varys disclosed their route in the hope of ensuring that she would be killed in the ambush.

Even still, setting up 10 feet from Dragonstone doesn't exactly require some kind of treason. It's literally what should be done and Euron is probably smart enough to have a scouts. Honestly, at this point: I would like Danny's group to just do ONE clever thing. Right now it's literally just her stumbling into dumb bullshit to even the odds and make this a fight. Why not send a raven to the bank and say "pull out all you mercs, or I'll burn you all down first." I mean, it likely won't work, but it would be something.

Or have her send in a dummy fleet since she's likely to have WAY more ships than men at this point. It's just boring to see her constantly lose shit in contrived ways.

And even if she 'forgot', did John also forget, and they also just didn't see the ships until they were in Ballistae range? Any everyone else forgot about being ambushed in that same area?

It's so laughable. Euron is like "damn, she broke off." Then immediately looks at the fleet with LoS but NO ONE noticed or was seemingly even assigned to LOOK for enemy ships. Jesus, fucking ANYTHING like a scout ship spots them, and Danny goes to investigate, and BOOM. Yea, it would STILL be stupid, but it would put the onus JUST on her. AS it stands, she's just enjoying her CGI ride and won't look left. And, IIRC, the FoV of the ambush area from Euron's perspective means the ships had to be visible for some time to everyone in Danny's fleet, even though the original camera pan made it look like they were just coming into view.

Which also hilariously means the first volley is what hit. No adjustment or anything.

And I guess the God of the Ocean (or whoever the Ironborn worship) must be laying a finger on the scales, as I'd assume it's kind of difficult to train people to shoot moving airborne targets in Westeros, due to the lack of airborne targets of any useful size. Maybe there was a huge clay pigeon shooter off screen.

Hitting clay birds flying perpendicular to you (shooting Skeet) with a shotgun is not easy. And that's at ~60 yards with a "bullet" that has spread. Not 1 mile with a crossbow. You could train for years and go your whole life never scoring a single hit like what happened in that episode, much less 3.

It's also super unclear how Cersei even managed to grab Missandai and not get or slaughter anyone else. The Ironborn just grabbed the 'skif', even though Dany's fleet is clearly just offshore and you could (in armor) swim from the fleet to the shore? I'm seeing Dorn-levels of plot convenience there unfortunately.

This is why Euron is the Luck God: he consistently rolls the Hard 6. Such as YOLOing his ship into the middle of a fleet at night and lucking into the one ship containing all the VIPs.

[Themightytom]

Euron is really what broke the episode for me. Three hits, and he personally shot them? Really? If I saw a volley rise from the sea, I'd have been satisfied, but "pew pew" same dragon three times? Come on. Too bad the unsullied had just dropped anchor, with the iron fleet apparently just sitting there.

Scouts would have been a great idea, or even some dragons that were... Looking Where They Were Going.

They did go out of their way to confirm Rhaegal was dead, so a tiny part of me hopes he washes up on shore somewhere.. not dead. Without him, Jon has no dragon, and he just gave up his wolf. I guess Daenarys doesn't have as much to worry about as she thought she did.

Dany is being gaslit into madness. Jon exchanged glances with her and shrugged. Everyone knew she was in the room while they were talking about riding dragons, it's NOT unreasonable for her to be annoyed.
Lord Varys IS plotting behind her back, and you know what.. fuck that guy. Other than smuggling Tyrion he hasn't been more than a sycophant who just shows up as an advisor. He's not REALLY serving "The realm" all his machinations have thrown it into upheaval for years. She even has Tyrion questioning her, and man, he just fucks up ALL the time with her, she's been super tolerant. She just lost her best friend, another dragon, she obliterated her armies helping Jon who is now her biggest rival, and whose sister (Sansa) is just an ungrateful bitch. Danarys has been screwed over since season 7.

But she HASN'T lost her shit yet, she still goes to parlay. She gave a castle to Gendry to win favor, sure, but she also took a shot at the Bastard state of affairs in doing so. She does seem to want to burn King's Landing down, but honestly, who wouldn't? It's an enemy stronghold and that place has fucked everyone over since day one.

If Jon is such a strong, inspiring leader who just does the right thing and doesn't want to rule, he's doing a really half ass job of showing it. If he really wanted to make good on his promise to Danaerys to help her win the war, he should have gone north with the wildlings, and stayed out of it. He's hovering around passive aggressively.

So Danarys is fast running out of Dragons and people she can trust, but she's still been reasonable so far. Let's see what happens next week.

[ray245]

I dislike writing that don't feel organic. This has elements of the JJ Abrams' "plot must move ahead at all cost, damn the torpedoes" kind of writing.

And these are the people writing the new Star Wars movies.

[Esquire]

So. I actually liked most of this episode, by runtime - good character moments, enjoyable-enough plotting, that sort of thing. Still a great deal of stupidity which could have been avoided so very, very easily.

That said, and I cannot stress this enough, Euron fucking Greyjoy and his goddamn Iron Fleet Ex Machina can go die in a (dragon, hopefully) fire. It is extremely clear that they go wherever the script needs them to be, never mind how impossible it might be, and never mind how there are definitely not two Iron Fleets worth of wood and sailors on the bloody Iron Islands. Also, the very obvious response to 'these guys just shot my dragon with their bow-mounted ballistae' is to use your remaining dragon to fly around the back of the Iron Fleet Ex Machina, where the sails and masts mask their apparently-magic siege weapons, and burn everyone even remotely involved, not to fly off to somewhere conveniently out of shot. I mean, come on, Daenerys, did you not think about this at all after the last times you were a) ambushed by this same fleet in this same place, and b) were shot at by a giant ballista very specifically designed to kill dragons? This should have been anticipated.

[Elfdart]

I can't tell if it's bad writing or if I missed something, but if Euron is so stupid as to think that the fetus Cersei is carrying might be his, then surely Tyrion's plea gave that game away.

[Solauren]

The question is; Did Cersei announce her 'pregnancy via Euron' publicaly yet? i.e Send out ravens to all the louds, including the North (as a 'fuck you' to Jamie).

I agree, the handling of the Iron Fleet o'Doom taking down a (wounded) dragon should have been handled by mass fire. That was my only issue. Everyone is acting in character. Sansa's attitude is easily explained as she sees Danny as Cersei v2.0. Especially after giving her the chance to go 'Okay, let's rest and heal.'

I think that Danny is starting to get impatient. Truth be told, her attitude reminds me of several very driven women I've known over the years during the early stages of a pregnancy. I agree that is probably stretching things, BUT, it could be.

Heck, tie that in with people pushing for them to marry, and them having declared their love, it could be the final hook that grabs Jon Snow.

Hopefully, someone can reign her in a a bit, and just go the siege route. Especially with King's Landing being surrounded by all those Scorpions.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Given the level of damage that the ballista shots were doing to the ships they struck, firing a ballista should have ripped it clean off the deck. Newton's Laws, you fucks!

I hated the majority of that episode.

[Vympel]

It would have made more sense if the bolt-throwers were on the ground inside Dragonstone, waiting for the dragons to land. But the whole idea of going to Dragonstone makes no fucking sense. Euron's fleet is still out there and dividing your own forces is idiotic. I assumed Cersei would have already taken Dragonstone while Danerys' forces had all gone north anyway, so what's the point of taking such a risk? Oh, and this pooch-screw can't be blamed on Tyrion like the others.

Honestly, you could just have Dany spot the fleet and attack it only to be met with the volley from multiple ships that drove her off in the episode - just have one or two bolts hit Rhaegal before she veers away. It's an easy fix, and it wouldn't take any more time. But 'surprise'. It's infuriating. And for D&D to say 'she kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet' ... my god shut up, you're making it so much worse. It's terrible writing.

Danerys has always been psycho, at least since she promised her remaining followers in Season 1 that their enemies would all die screaming as she carried out human sacrifice. She's just Stannis in hot chick form. Aside from being cute, her redeeming quality is that the forces opposed to her are so much worse (Slavers, Deadites) and people are hoping she can crush them. Well, as her forces dwindle (including two of her sane advisors) her chances of crushing anyone are going downhill, too. So what you have left is a queen whose first instinct is to burn people and has to be talked down from this constantly -and it isn't encouraging, no matter how much Emilia Clarke bats her adorable eyelashes.

True. Every problem she's had in the series has been solved with violence and acquiring new weapons in her arsenal.

That said, at this point Danerys should consider a bunch on Napalm strikes from directly above (there's at best a 45-degree elevation on those ballistas) either on Euron's ships (or just drop huge rocks on them from high altitude) so she can besiege King's Landing, or on one or more of the AA-towers -or better still on the docks so freight can't be loaded or unloaded. In other words, starve out the city or burn them out. But she could have done that a season ago.

She could just attack at night, really. But after Episode 3, fuck night attacks. The preview for Episode 5 shows her divebombing out of the sun - the editing makes it look like on Euron's anchored fleet.

As a side note, when did "earned" become part of the jargon used in discussing fictional characters or stories?

No idea.

Euron is really what broke the episode for me. Three hits, and he personally shot them? Really? If I saw a volley rise from the sea, I'd have been satisfied, but "pew pew" same dragon three times? Come on. Too bad the unsullied had just dropped anchor, with the iron fleet apparently just sitting there.

Euron didn't fire all three shots. It was still shit.

[The Romulan Republic]

Just finished the episode.

Notwithstanding my misgivings about Bullshit-Aimbot-Rhaegal-Surprise-Death* - I quite liked the episode. Thoughts!

- The opening funeral scene was really moving
- Ghost is a wounded good boy!
- Jon's speech was really great
- The feast scene played the awkwardness and tension really well, especially Dany's obvious isolation and the praise heaped on Jon to the exclusion of her
- Gendry Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End! The kind of thing everyone assumed would be forgotten in the mad dash to the end
- What was up with Sansa's look at Tyrion after Gendry was legitimised? Concern that she just made an ally, most likely?
- Davos believes in the LoL, and hates him
- Nice touch from Bran re: the wheelchair design
- Sansa and the Hound finally sharing another scene was nice
- So obvious Gendry - Lord of Zero Chill - would be denied. Arya true to her Season 1 self
- Brienne and Jaime were very sweet together
- The scene between Dany and Jon re: her asking him to keep the secret was so good. The different layers to their relationship all mixed up in some wonderful conflict and dysfunction
- War planning: ok so it didn't seem like <4,000 Unsullied survived, but ok
- The new Prince of Dorne? Who? As if we'll find out.
- The siege plan is solid.
- I like that both Sansa and Dany have a point in the argument. Neither of them are entirely wrong. Jon deciding the issue Dany's way was an obvious reference to him cementing his position in the discussion they had in his room the night before.
- Fuck's sake, of course Sansa breaks her promise in two seconds flat. Didn't think she'd keep it for a second. This is politics.
- The Bronn bit was kind of random, I'm not sure how they'll pay it off or even if they will
- Arya's unfinished business in King's Landing: oh god, please don't have her kill Cersei
- It's good that they played up Rhaegal's wounds and that he wasn't fully healed
- Sansa and Tyrion's conversation was great
- Sucks that Ghost didn't get a proper goodbye
- Varys and Tyrion's conversation on the ship - and later on Dragonstone - was gold standard old school early GOT dialog. *chef's kiss*
- The scenes at Dragonstone - again - excellent. (And I like it how they point out Jon and the bulk of their forces is 2 weeks away)
- What is Varys going to do? How?
- Not sure how to feel about Jaime. Is he going to try and save her, or is he going to end her?
- That ending. Bye Missandei.

*That Euron bullshit

I said earlier in the thread that where presented a choice between suspense and surprise, GOT chooses surprise everytime, even when it doesn't make a lick of sense. This was one of those times. As noted in the thread before, there's so many different ways you could've done this scene so that it actually wasn't contrived, but that would ruin the shock, so they went with aimbot Ironborn ballistae.

'Mad' Queen Dany

Notwithstanding that I hate this idea a lot - it just rubs me the wrong way and its not the story I want at all - I was impressed at how well this episode sold how dangerous Dany can be if she goes 'wrong'. I don't like the 'lol she's mad' construction, but the less extreme 'bad ruler who thinks something is her destiny and is increasingly likely to spill a lot of blood to get it' is more acceptable, and so many of the scenes showed Dany as someone who is isolated, grieving, suffering, and under increasing emotional strain.

I'm not the only one who thinks this episode's treatment of Danny was a crock of shit:

This season has been all about pandering and fan service. Mark my words- this episode was a sop thrown to the misogynist element of the fandom, the ones for whom the world of Game of Thrones, where women are routinely raped and traded like chattel, is not a dystopia- its wish fulfillment. I hope I'm wrong and this is a misdirect for a last-minute subversion, but right now I fully expect a simplified "Mad Queen" Danaerys to be rushed in and quickly killed off at the last moment so a more deserving penis can ascend to the Iron Throne.

And if that happens, I will declare everything past Episode III of this season (and possibly beyond that) non-canon. I said it before: I would honestly rather Danny died with her character intact. It would still be suck, killing her off so that Jon has a clear path to the throne. But it would suck just a little less than character-assassinating her first.

Anything that happens to Dany this season - her final fate - will be because GRRM told the writers that would happen - in some form. The idea that this is some sort of misogynist plot that's appeared fully formed out of the show is not credible. No matter how much I might personally dislike it (and I do), the article's assertion that Dany has been an unambiguous hero for 7 seasons and this is some sort of late change is questionable. This isn't coming out of nowhere.

Also just because characters are talking about it doesn't mean the show is actually selling Jon as the better ruler, or setting him up to be King, either.

I just hope they pull off whatever they're doing in an organic way that makes sense, whether I'm happy with the character's fate or not.

And that's perhaps the biggest thing: it doesn't feel organic to me. It feels like a rushed way to make Danny into a one-note bad guy, to pander to her bashers/sexists and/or provide some extra conflict/"twists" at the last minute.

Danny is no saint, by any means- but she is layered, and when she went North, she seemed to be growing as a character, moving away from "take the throne above all else". This feels like a contrived about-face to set up a contrived resolution.

[FaxModem1]

I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, a lot of stupid bullshit has been happening so that Dany has to fight Cersei with a hand behind her back and give them equal footing, and I feel like Dany's reaction to that is almost a meta extension of the character reacting to the writers sabotaging her constantly whereas in a straight up fight, Dany should have been on the Iron Throne a season ago with everything in place.

On the other hand, Dany, even with her advisers, has made serious mistakes as a ruler. As someone pointed out to her a few seasons ago, Dany is not a leader, she's a conqueror. Conquerors are VERY good at defeating the enemy. Dealing with the aftermath and rebuilding? Not so much, as we saw with Yunkai and Meereen. On the plus side, she does care about the people, she just has a bit of that mad conqueror in her at times in how to solve their problems.

Dany also grew up as exiled aristocracy, and the only thing that kept her going was that someday, she would have her kingdom back. So Varys is partially right in that Jon would be a better leader, in the fact that he doesn't want the job, but does it so that his people will be okay. However, getting her to listen with alternate strategies and proposed solutions to her problems would do the trick, as opposed to saying, 'Please don't do this' while not giving her any other options.

[The Romulan Republic]

My advice to Danny would be:

1.- If you have the manpower left to do it, storm King's Landing and get it over with. If not, fortify the territory you do have.

2. Have Arya assassinate Cersei. She's more than capable of it, would probably pay you for the privilege, and that will decapitate the enemy's leadership, throw them into chaos, and with no clear successor (unless the Westerlands and Crownlands are on board with King Euron) means that they may just surrender outright.

3. Don't engage Euron at sea. Bypass his fleet while its guarding King's Landing, help Yara take the Iron Islands, and then force Euron to come home to defend his realm.

But she can't do anything smart, because the writers are strong-arming her into the role of Mad Queen, while nerfing her forces.

[Vendetta]

And that's perhaps the biggest thing: it doesn't feel organic to me. It feels like a rushed way to make Danny into a one-note bad guy, to pander to her bashers/sexists and/or provide some extra conflict/"twists" at the last minute.

Danny is no saint, by any means- but she is layered, and when she went North, she seemed to be growing as a character, moving away from "take the throne above all else". This feels like a contrived about-face to set up a contrived resolution.

The show left the era of actions organically arising from character arcs behind a couple of seasons ago when it ran out of books to adapt.

We're deep into the era of the cult of the badass, where naturalistic outcomes are thrown under the bus in favour of getting a character to look badass, whether it's Arya shanking the Night's King despite no part of her arc interacting with the White Walkers previously, or Euron being a radar guided SAM launcher.

Combine that with always choosing surprise over suspense, and they're basically just twisting and turning to try and be as unexpected as possible no matter whether it tracks from previously defined arcs or not.

[The Romulan Republic]

And that's perhaps the biggest thing: it doesn't feel organic to me. It feels like a rushed way to make Danny into a one-note bad guy, to pander to her bashers/sexists and/or provide some extra conflict/"twists" at the last minute.

Danny is no saint, by any means- but she is layered, and when she went North, she seemed to be growing as a character, moving away from "take the throne above all else". This feels like a contrived about-face to set up a contrived resolution.

The show left the era of actions organically arising from character arcs behind a couple of seasons ago when it ran out of books to adapt.

We're deep into the era of the cult of the badass, where naturalistic outcomes are thrown under the bus in favour of getting a character to look badass, whether it's Arya shanking the Night's King despite no part of her arc interacting with the White Walkers previously, or Euron being a radar guided SAM launcher.

Whether or not Arya had previously interacted with the White Walkers has no bearing on whether it is believeable for her to kill him. That would be conflating realism with traditional narrative convention, which are two different things.

Its in character for her to do so, and consistent with her established abilities. It might feel like a bait and switch after the Prince Who Was Promised build up around Jon and Danny, but I'd even argue its somewhat thematically consistent with a show that has repeatedly made a point of showing that being a skilled warrior and being a good leader aren't necessarily the same thing.

Combine that with always choosing surprise over suspense, and they're basically just twisting and turning to try and be as unexpected as possible no matter whether it tracks from previously defined arcs or not.

I'd argue its worse- this season feels like it has been about pandering to fan communities, more than anything else. Its another sign of how internet fandom (or rather the most vocal and trollish elements of it) are becoming the driving force behind how franchises are written- which ultimately means an endless parade of inconsistent pandering, often to peoples' worst impulses.