Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

[The Romulan Republic]

Okay, I may see the next Spiderman (though its not a top priority) because it looks like Nick Fury has a big role in it. But Spidey just doesn't interest me much as a character, for whatever reason. Cap interested me. Widow interested me. The Guardians as a group interest me (especially Nebula and Gamora). Tony did almost purely on the strength of RDJ's persona and acting. The others mostly just bore me.

[K. A. Pital]

So do you hate Black Widow because she's a defector, because she shares a name with some historical assholes, or because she has a name that might make some people think of prostitutes?

I don‘t hate her TRR, just think she was an underused and mostly useless character, who also incidentally happened to be basically a walking racist trope on Russians so prevalent in US films (Russian has weird dumb name? Check. Russian lady deadly KGB? Check. Russian defects to GLORIOUS AMERICA? Check). You can’t see them as tropes, prob.

But anyway the only guys lamer than BW were the useless Vision, Scarlet Witch - at least she wasn’t sexualized to shit, thx Marvel - and the dude with wings. Oh, also Hawkeye.

Hope these characters just vanish. Hell Tony Stark the whitewashed arms dealer was a better character...

[The Romulan Republic]

So do you hate Black Widow because she's a defector, because she shares a name with some historical assholes, or because she has a name that might make some people think of prostitutes?

I don‘t hate her TRR, just think she was an underused and mostly useless character, who also incidentally happened to be basically a walking racist trope on Russians so prevalent in US films (Russian has weird dumb name? Check. Russian lady deadly KGB? Check. Russian defects to GLORIOUS AMERICA? Check). You can’t see them as tropes, prob.

I can see how, if you look at them critically, those things can be seen as cliches. Though while its possible that I'm missing some context here, I confess I don't see what's so "weird" or "dumb" about her name. Stereotypically Russian, maybe, but "Natasha" is a pretty common name. But then I'd never heard of the Natasha=prostitute meme. Is that a long-standing thing, or something that developed after Marvel created the character that they just got caught up in? If the latter, I don't think its really fair to hold it against Marvel or the character.

On a side note, is it established that MCU Black Widow was KGB? There are so many sinister secret organizations in Marvel, and the only thing I can ever recall being said on-screen was "the Red Room".

But anyway the only guys lamer than BW were the useless Vision, Scarlet Witch - at least she wasn’t sexualized to shit, thx Marvel - and the dude with wings. Oh, also Hawkeye.

Hope these characters just vanish. Hell Tony Stark the whitewashed arms dealer was a better character...

Black Widow did at least get to be useful on occassion, and had at least a little bit of layers to her personality (as much as secondary characters in superhero movies normally get, really). Hawkeye in contrast had as much character development, but was less useful. Scarlet Witch basically seems to have existed to suffer. I don't think any character got a worse deal than her, barring maybe Nebula. It is telling that she was the only character who looked happy as Thanos dissolved her. Falcon and Vision I don't really care much about, which I guess kind of supports your point.

I strongly disagree that Tony's arms dealing was "whitewashed", however. I mean, Marvel generally doesn't wallow in grim dark details, but pretty much the entire point of his character growth in his films is him having it repeatedly shoved in his face what an irresponsible dick he was, and what the consequences of that are, and him trying (and often failing) to make amends for it. I don't know, maybe you wanted to see him executed by a Glorious People's Revolution or something, but I wouldn't call it whitewashed, exactly.

Canon MCU Tony is an irresponsible, arrogant, obsessive, control freak, reactionary jackass. He's basically a counterpart to Thanos in a lot of ways (and I wish Endgame had explored that more). That he is at all likeable or entertaining is down almost entirely to RDJ's acting.

[Crazedwraith]

On a side note, is it established that MCU Black Widow was KGB? There are so many sinister secret organizations in Marvel, and the only thing I can ever recall being said on-screen was "the Red Room".

In Winter Soldier she says 'When I joined SHIELD I thought I was going straight. It turns out I just switched the KGB for HYDRA"

[The Romulan Republic]

On a side note, is it established that MCU Black Widow was KGB? There are so many sinister secret organizations in Marvel, and the only thing I can ever recall being said on-screen was "the Red Room".

In Winter Soldier she says 'When I joined SHIELD I thought I was going straight. It turns out I just switched the KGB for HYDRA"

Fair enough then.

[K. A. Pital]

Man, for starters Russian surnames (especially Russian female surnames) do not end with „ff“... This is a bastardized version of a surname that was often used by immigration officials in the West esp. US to make new surnames out of old surnames for immigrants with Russian roots based on male gender French transcription. Which was a thing in the late XIX century, not in our times... And as such exists only in old brands like Davidoff/Smirnoff or in lazy comicbook or B-sexploitaion movie writing

Other than that, I agree about Stark (the folly of his ways was also shown, which actually made the films watchable, even if oftentimes trashy).

[KraytKing]

I'm not sure why anyone wants any characters coming back. If characters die and come back, it destroys any meaning their death may carry. Gamora and Romanoff both had deaths with meaning. Bad enough that Gamora came back, even if it is an earlier version.

Also, about how Gamora and everyone else from different timelines are different people: they aren't. There aren't multiple timelines until you change something. The Gamora they grabbed is the Gamora from the first Guardians movie. She may develop to be a different person than she ended up, of course, so if that's what you mean I apologize. But if they went and grabbed a new Tony Stark from two seconds before he grabbed the stones, it would be Tony Stark. Same person. Not a clone with different experiences, not a clone with the same experiences. Actually Tony Stark.

On the actual movie: the Ancient One said that if ANY Infinity Stone is removed from its timeline, it falls into darkness. What was the Soul Stone doing that was so important on Vormir? And how is the original timeline going to do without theirs? Dormammu gonna come to visit?

[Lost Soal]

She was referring to the Time Stone dooming their reality as that was what the Sorcerer Supreme was charged with guarding. Removing any odd Infinity Stone simply creates another branch in reality.

[Big Orange]

I'm not sure why anyone wants any characters coming back. If characters die and come back, it destroys any meaning their death may carry. Gamora and Romanoff both had deaths with meaning. Bad enough that Gamora came back, even if it is an earlier version.

Also, about how Gamora and everyone else from different timelines are different people: they aren't. There aren't multiple timelines until you change something. The Gamora they grabbed is the Gamora from the first Guardians movie. She may develop to be a different person than she ended up, of course, so if that's what you mean I apologize.

Honestly I think the first Gamora's death remains as tragic, inevitable, and eternal as Natasha's death (and worse still it was ultimately pointless, since it was undone by Natasha's sacrifice).

Sure, the second Gamora's got the same set of earlier lifetime memories and personality traits, but she's her own person and agent. She'll branch off into a being another person, and will she take to a grieving Quill who poignantly wants her to be exactly the original "real" Gamora who was murdered? I think she'll be more than a little unnerved by this. Ditto with Thor eventually meeting the Mirror Loki with the stolen Tesseract.

[Coop D'etat]

I'm not sure why anyone wants any characters coming back. If characters die and come back, it destroys any meaning their death may carry. Gamora and Romanoff both had deaths with meaning. Bad enough that Gamora came back, even if it is an earlier version.

Also, about how Gamora and everyone else from different timelines are different people: they aren't. There aren't multiple timelines until you change something. The Gamora they grabbed is the Gamora from the first Guardians movie. She may develop to be a different person than she ended up, of course, so if that's what you mean I apologize. But if they went and grabbed a new Tony Stark from two seconds before he grabbed the stones, it would be Tony Stark. Same person. Not a clone with different experiences, not a clone with the same experiences. Actually Tony Stark.

On the actual movie: the Ancient One said that if ANY Infinity Stone is removed from its timeline, it falls into darkness. What was the Soul Stone doing that was so important on Vormir? And how is the original timeline going to do without theirs? Dormammu gonna come to visit?

The time stone was essential to preventing Dormannu from eating their reality in Doctor Strange. So it makes sense that the Ancient One (who knows a lot about the future, particularly concerning cosmic threats) refers to keeping it as a weapon against darkness as being essential.

So it also makes sense that she's only willing to loan it out on the basis that they seem to be following some ploy of Strange's. He'd know the risks just as much as she did.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I hadn't thought about that, but it would have been cool to have Cap meet Red Skull again; some people had theorised that it would be Cap who sacrificed himself instead of Tony since it was the last film for both of them (who would then claim the stone?). And of course, you have to wonder what became of Skull once his role as stone-keeper was fulfilled.

Who says it's Fulfilled? In Theory, as long as there someone willing to sacrifice a loved one's soul, there will be a Soul Stone.

Also, why Hawkeye didn't go get the body -- remember, both he and Thanos 'woke up' in a pond miles from the mountain, with the Stone in hand. They didn't get the chance to go back. In fact, do we know if those who make the bargain CAN go back to the mountain?

If that was so then there could be many copies around, and many remains at the bottom of the mountain. Everything we're seen so far indicates there's only one soul stone, and that was destroyed along with the others- without that, Skull no longer has a purpose.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm not sure why anyone wants any characters coming back. If characters die and come back, it destroys any meaning their death may carry. Gamora and Romanoff both had deaths with meaning. Bad enough that Gamora came back, even if it is an earlier version.

This is not an absolute. Resurrection is a plot line that can be done badly, or well. I would contend, however, that it should be used sparingly, consistently, and when there is a compelling narrative, thematic, or character reason to do so.

Also, about how Gamora and everyone else from different timelines are different people: they aren't. There aren't multiple timelines until you change something. The Gamora they grabbed is the Gamora from the first Guardians movie. She may develop to be a different person than she ended up, of course, so if that's what you mean I apologize. But if they went and grabbed a new Tony Stark from two seconds before he grabbed the stones, it would be Tony Stark. Same person. Not a clone with different experiences, not a clone with the same experiences. Actually Tony Stark.

Except that this Gamora, as you yourself acknowledge will not have the same experiences as the first Gamora. If she wasn't a different person originally, she is certainly one now.

On the actual movie: the Ancient One said that if ANY Infinity Stone is removed from its timeline, it falls into darkness. What was the Soul Stone doing that was so important on Vormir? And how is the original timeline going to do without theirs? Dormammu gonna come to visit?

Good question.

Man, for starters Russian surnames (especially Russian female surnames) do not end with „ff“... This is a bastardized version of a surname that was often used by immigration officials in the West esp. US to make new surnames out of old surnames for immigrants with Russian roots based on male gender French transcription. Which was a thing in the late XIX century, not in our times... And as such exists only in old brands like Davidoff/Smirnoff or in lazy comicbook or B-sexploitaion movie writing

Then Marvel should officially change the characters' name.

[Civil War Man]

Except that this Gamora, as you yourself acknowledge will not have the same experiences as the first Gamora. If she wasn't a different person originally, she is certainly one now.

I think the point is that Gamora does have the same experiences as the first Gamora up until the Time Heist set her on a different path. She is the same Gamora up until that point, but her experiences after that turn her into a different Gamora.

On the actual movie: the Ancient One said that if ANY Infinity Stone is removed from its timeline, it falls into darkness. What was the Soul Stone doing that was so important on Vormir? And how is the original timeline going to do without theirs? Dormammu gonna come to visit?

The Soul Stone may not have been doing anything important, per se, but not having it where it's supposed to be when it's supposed to be could theoretically have a butterfly effect.

[Big Orange]

I think the point is that Gamora does have the same experiences as the first Gamora up until the Time Heist set her on a different path. She is the same Gamora up until that point, but her experiences after that turn her into a different Gamora.

The 2nd Gamora had the same set of experiences as the original Gamora until a few months before the "real" Gamora's fateful meeting with Quill on Xandar in 2014 (but our Gamora was murdered by Thanos in exchange for the Soul Stone five long years before the Time Heist/final battle and spent 4 years before that with Quill). The 2nd Gamora defected quite quickly but vanished off into the Milky Way, after a similar first encounter with Quill. Also the Russo's say the Soul Stone shrine is like a slot machine than a swap, so the first Gamora cannot be restored alongside Natasha either.

[Civil War Man]

So here's my pick for the stupidest fan theory that I think I would nevertheless be on board with if they decided to make it canon for some reason:

1. Loki faked his death in Infinity War, since he knew the situation was unwinnable and he couldn't take on Thanos and his children by himself.
2. Like Thor, he survives the destruction of the ship and manages to stay alive long enough in space to be recovered by someone (it's not like the first time he survived in space).
3. He doesn't get snapped.
4. He goes into hiding Earth, but needs to keep a low profile because the Asgardians think he's dead and the humans just remember him as the guy who attacked New York, so he maintains a long-term disguise like when he impersonated Odin.
5. He gets bored with that existence, but Asgard is gone and the thought of trying to rule the Earth after the snap just feels hollow.
6. In order to pass the time, he takes up gaming, and creates a Fortnite account called Noobmaster69.

[NeoGoomba]

Hah, then maybe the Loki series will be the Noobmaster69-version vs. the evil Tesseract version of Loki in some kind of Grandmaster's Contest of Champions?

[PREDATOR490]

I thought the Avengers were travelling to different timeverses rather than just the past of their own universe and it really has to be because of Old Man Rogers.

Rogers went back and somehow had a life with Peggy Carter - This is completely impossible to be in the same universe timeline. They have a Carter series that details her story and Captain America is not in it.
The series being ignored by the films like Agents of Shield - Fair enough

We have seen Old Peggy Carter in the movies as well, and no old man Rodgers is there and reasonably cannot be there.
It is simply incongruous with the way the franchise has developed that Old Man Rodgers was in the same Timeline.

As a result, the Loki that escaped is in a different timeverse. It does not make much sense for him to be in what we consider the "prime" timeline since he would have no way to get there and more importantly, no reason to go there.
From Loki's perspective, he zipped away with no clue what was going on.

The Loki in the prime verse did die - Faking that out would actually be exceptionally cheap.
Faking it out by saying that Loki is the alternate version Loki is even worse because that means the prime verse Loki is unaccounted for.

The big question, did each of the Time Heist Avengers go to a separate timeverse or did they all go to different points in a single timeverse ?

If each of the Avengers that did the time heist went to individual time verses... that means the timeverse that 2014 Thanos comes from is going to be drastically different.
Not to mention that Tony snapped Thanos forces out of existence - Does that include ALL Thanos from ALL timeverses ?
Does that snap only eliminate the 2014 Thanos forces that were in the Prime Verse ?
What happened to the 20XX Thanos forces after he did his snap, Thanos got his head chopped off but where are his armies ?
Was the entire forces of Thanos in a single ship ?

The 2014 Thanos is dead and his armies gone including Gamora and Nebula. That should drastically alter Peter Quils fate in that timeverse.
Potentially resulting in Ego consuming it because Quil gets turned into a battery or Ronan the Accuser going nuclear when he gets one of the infinity stones.

Without Thanos in the picture, does that mean Asgard gets obliterated and the Asgardian Refuegees come to Earth with Loki holding the Teseract for that particular timeverse ?

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

Interview

Fandango: So people are asking... Does this mean an old Captain America was hanging out this whole time while another Captain America was saving the day?

Christopher Markus: That is our theory. We are not experts on time travel, but the Ancient One specifically states that when you take an Infinity Stone out of a timeline it creates a new timeline. So Steve going back and just being there would not create a new timeline. So I reject the "Steve is in an alternate reality" theory.

Ugh. Adding confusion

As much as I dislike the "multiple time-verse" explanation, at least it makes some sense storywise. This, however, kind of results in quite a few problems already mentioned. It's really hard for me to believe that Cap would just sit through various issues (for the "Greater Good"?) to maintain the timeline.

[The Romulan Republic]

It is really hard to do a time travel plot well, and even harder if you veer away from a strict adherence to stable time loops.

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

It is really hard to do a time travel plot well, and even harder if you veer away from a strict adherence to stable time loops.

Indeed. Since the Russo Brothers and the writers have conflicting views, it's more likely that they just left some issues to be open to interpretation/imagination (and probably whatever future films to milk the franchise out of).

[The Romulan Republic]

The last fucking thing you want to do with a time travel plot is be vague about it, or not make up your mind what version of time travel you're using. That's kind of amateurish, frankly.

[KraytKing]

Interview

Fandango: So people are asking... Does this mean an old Captain America was hanging out this whole time while another Captain America was saving the day?

Christopher Markus: That is our theory. We are not experts on time travel, but the Ancient One specifically states that when you take an Infinity Stone out of a timeline it creates a new timeline. So Steve going back and just being there would not create a new timeline. So I reject the "Steve is in an alternate reality" theory.

Ugh. Adding confusion

As much as I dislike the "multiple time-verse" explanation, at least it makes some sense storywise. This, however, kind of results in quite a few problems already mentioned. It's really hard for me to believe that Cap would just sit through various issues (for the "Greater Good"?) to maintain the timeline.

Hang on. Definitely not this. The said ANY change results in an alternate universe, not just moving Infinity Stones. The Infinity Stones create dark ones when they move. If only moving Infinity Stones could create an alternate timeline, they would have gone with the original plan and killed baby Thanos. Cap definitely went to a new timeline, because they said from the beginning that going back in time creates new timelines. Hulk spent like five minutes discussing it.

[AniThyng]

Kinda screw's over the frozen cap in that timeline he settled in on too...

[Crazedwraith]

Interview

Fandango: So people are asking... Does this mean an old Captain America was hanging out this whole time while another Captain America was saving the day?

Christopher Markus: That is our theory. We are not experts on time travel, but the Ancient One specifically states that when you take an Infinity Stone out of a timeline it creates a new timeline. So Steve going back and just being there would not create a new timeline. So I reject the "Steve is in an alternate reality" theory.

Ugh. Adding confusion

As much as I dislike the "multiple time-verse" explanation, at least it makes some sense storywise. This, however, kind of results in quite a few problems already mentioned. It's really hard for me to believe that Cap would just sit through various issues (for the "Greater Good"?) to maintain the timeline.

Hang on. Definitely not this. The said ANY change results in an alternate universe, not just moving Infinity Stones. The Infinity Stones create dark ones when they move. If only moving Infinity Stones could create an alternate timeline, they would have gone with the original plan and killed baby Thanos. Cap definitely went to a new timeline, because they said from the beginning that going back in time creates new timelines. Hulk spent like five minutes discussing it.

That does present a problem with Hulk's plan to save the AUs they take the stones from by returning them because that time travel should create new AUs as well. One where the stones are returned and one where they aren't.

[PREDATOR490]

They can bitch and haw all they want about Steve being in the same timeline - The movie explicitly explains it's own rules for how this time travel shenanigans works and Old Man Steve is not in the same universe.

Between the Carter series, Agents of Shield series and the movies. Peggy Carter's life is firmly established as being without any Steve Rogers so claiming otherwise is simply not going to work no matter how hard anyone says different.

If we are to take writers intent as fact - Old Man Rodgers sat on his hands while events unfolded and further somehow convinced Carter to do the same resulting in her spending a series behaving like Rodgers was dead. I find it exceptionally hard to believe that Rodgers or Carter would ignore the rise of Hydra and even less likely he would go unnoticed.

If Old Man Rodgers is a result of a self-created timeline then Old Man Rodgers has technically been stealing a Carter from another universe from the Rodgers stuck in the ice. Is Steve seriously going to ignore this and let his alternate self freeze so he can have his happy ending ?
Never mind, sit on his hands and ignore Hydra or any number of events he could actively prevent or even inadvertently change by being present.

Alternatively, Rodgers gets his alternate self out and we have two Rodgers that are going to be wanting the same woman... awkward much ?

The element that confuses me is determining if the time heist occurred in multiple different timeverses or was the same timeverse at different points.
The former would mean the teams went to 6 different timeverses and created 6 more when they took the infinity stones. Thus you have 12 universes.
OR
If they are all the same Timeverse at different points - The Avengers created an unknown number because the knock on effects of taking the stones and whatever changes they caused should create even more.

The major point of clarification is if just taking the stones creates a new timeline or putting them back nullified this.
That said, this still has the knock on effect of them killing another timeverse Thanos which should ultimately result in a different timeline of the alternate timeverse regardless of the stones. That could be potentially 3 new universes.
1) For Old Man Rodgers
2) 2014 Thanos dead
3) Loki getting away with one of the stones