Avengers: Endgame release thread (spoilers)

[Big Orange]

I got the impression that Steve was in an alternative timeline, with "another" Peggy Carter (the next best thing in the whole wide Multiverse) and I like to think, knowing about the mayhem from his native TL, he'd dismantle HYDRA before it spread too far through SHIELD and many other institutions (and save alternate versions of Bucky and Natasha from being turned into enslaved supersoldiers by the Russian/Leviathan wing of HYDRA).

And I can understand Steve Roger's retirement - he'll never get over being separated from the original Peggy Carter for over half a century, and his childhood friend, Bucky, is now a broken, murderous shell of a man. And the tragic deaths of Tony (and Natasha especially) saddened him deeply and were two main anchors for him in the present day OTL gone for good.

And why do some people want to desperately undo and ruin the poignant, impactful deaths of not only Tony and Natasha, but also Loki and Gamora (as we knew them)? At best you'll get The Search For Spock at worst you'll get Kingsman 2.

[Khaat]

Was thinking about this: when Professor Hulk is explaining to the Ancient One his reasoning that the alternate timeline will collapse, one already has: the timeline in which Tony and Steve stole (and returned) the Tesseract/Space Stone. How Steve got the Soul Stone back to Vormyr is another question. And a story in itself: "I'm here to return the... Red Skull!? What are you doing here?" "Just hanging out, lying to folks about how to get the soul stone. Turns out there's a giant button under that dais down there, and it's the weight of the body that opens the lightshow and delivers the stone. Can I get a ride?"

But that brought up another question for me: why doesn't someone have to die every time the soul stone changes hands? Why wouldn't the first person say, "You know what? That's fucked up! I'm handing this to the next person and make sure it never goes back into the 'must sacrifice a life to get it' box!"

[AniThyng]

I got the impression that Steve was in an alternative timeline, with "another" Peggy Carter (the next best thing in the whole wide Multiverse) and I like to think, knowing about the mayhem from his native TL, he'd dismantle HYDRA before it spread too far through SHIELD and many other institutions (and save alternate versions of Bucky and Natasha from being turned into enslaved supersoldiers by the Russian/Leviathan wing of HYDRA).

Yeah and what does he do with his frozen self, hm?

[Big Orange]

Yeah and what does he do with his frozen self, hm?

That's a hiccup, but in his mind it's better to screw over another version of himself than others.

He felt deeply hurt and guilty about what happened to his best friend, and was profoundly grief stricken over Natasha dying (when he had a passing crush and lasting friendship with her), why would he, how could he ignore the plights of their alternative past versions of them in the new timeline?!

And not take the chance to take the fight to HYDRA (and even the Ten Rings) properly and also save Tony Stark's parents?

[PREDATOR490]

The fallout of this movie will not really be explained until follow up films. Especially if a Black Widow, Gamorra, Thor or Loki follow up occurs and how they do it.

The issue with Thor mainly comes around what weapon he is wielding. If it is back to the hammer then a serious problem occurs because that Hammer either A) Came from the past or B) Was stolen from another universe. Both situations result in a massive issue.

Stealing the hammer from Thor RIGHT before the dark elves try to take the stone is going to cause a gigantic problem.

Incidentally, I would really like to see the scene where Old Man Rodgers somehow returns this hammer AND the aether infinity stone in Asgard without causing a gigantic mess. Thor got away with it because he knows the terrain and had his mother to fall back on. Steve has none of that shit and the Elves could supposedly track the aether.
I would also guess that Heimdall had a serious day off from seeing all of these shenanigans ?

It is during this aspect that we see Loki locked away in the cell similar to Thor:Dark World - This is another timeverse from the one that had him use the Teseract to zip away ?

If this is meant to be the same universe the Loki that got away with the Teseract made a deal with a Thanos that has mysteriously disappeared or if a different universe, a Thanos that is very much alive.

I feel this film missed an obvious problem with the time heist issue - How are they able to target different locations including different planets ?
Otherwise, how the hell is Steve Rodgers supposed to get to Asgard, Voramire or the planet Quill was on ?

[Coop D'etat]

The fallout of this movie will not really be explained until follow up films. Especially if a Black Widow, Gamorra, Thor or Loki follow up occurs and how they do it.

The issue with Thor mainly comes around what weapon he is wielding. If it is back to the hammer then a serious problem occurs because that Hammer either A) Came from the past or B) Was stolen from another universe. Both situations result in a massive issue.

Stealing the hammer from Thor RIGHT before the dark elves try to take the stone is going to cause a gigantic problem.

Incidentally, I would really like to see the scene where Old Man Rodgers somehow returns this hammer AND the aether infinity stone in Asgard without causing a gigantic mess. Thor got away with it because he knows the terrain and had his mother to fall back on. Steve has none of that shit and the Elves could supposedly track the aether.
I would also guess that Heimdall had a serious day off from seeing all of these shenanigans ?

It is during this aspect that we see Loki locked away in the cell similar to Thor:Dark World - This is another timeverse from the one that had him use the Teseract to zip away ?

If this is meant to be the same universe the Loki that got away with the Teseract made a deal with a Thanos that has mysteriously disappeared or if a different universe, a Thanos that is very much alive.

I feel this film missed an obvious problem with the time heist issue - How are they able to target different locations including different planets ?
Otherwise, how the hell is Steve Rodgers supposed to get to Asgard, Voramire or the planet Quill was on ?

All the trips are to the Avenger's current past, which is immutable. So every trip is to the original past, not a separate timeline.

Cap takes Mjollner with him on his trip, presumably to also return it alongside the Aether to Asgard before Dark World era Thor misses it.

Any timeline Loki gets away is a separate timeline, and is not the Endgame Avenger's past life (remember, your personal past is immutable).

Quantum time travel necessarily involves simultaneous travel in 3D space as well, so going somewhere that isn't Earth so long as you know where it is shouldn't be a major issue.

[The Romulan Republic]

The fallout of this movie will not really be explained until follow up films. Especially if a Black Widow, Gamorra, Thor or Loki follow up occurs and how they do it.

If the film's plot can't stand on its own, in my book, that's a problem with the film making. Or at least it would in a standard series- it might be best to regard the MCU as more like a really big budget television series.

The issue with Thor mainly comes around what weapon he is wielding. If it is back to the hammer then a serious problem occurs because that Hammer either A) Came from the past or B) Was stolen from another universe. Both situations result in a massive issue.

Stealing the hammer from Thor RIGHT before the dark elves try to take the stone is going to cause a gigantic problem.

I keep thinking of all the horribly fucked alternate universes that now presumably exist thanks to the Avengers of the original timeline, with nary a thought given to the consequences. The universe where Loki got away in Avengers, the universe where Thor has no hammer... probably some more examples. But this film treats characters from different realities as interchangeable (Gamora, Peggy), so why not whole realities too?

Incidentally, I would really like to see the scene where Old Man Rodgers somehow returns this hammer AND the aether infinity stone in Asgard without causing a gigantic mess. Thor got away with it because he knows the terrain and had his mother to fall back on. Steve has none of that shit and the Elves could supposedly track the aether.
I would also guess that Heimdall had a serious day off from seeing all of these shenanigans ?

I do wonder what Heimdall made of all of it, now that you mention it.

It is during this aspect that we see Loki locked away in the cell similar to Thor:Dark World - This is another timeverse from the one that had him use the Teseract to zip away ?

Damned if I know. I'd need to rewatch it and take notes.

If this is meant to be the same universe the Loki that got away with the Teseract made a deal with a Thanos that has mysteriously disappeared or if a different universe, a Thanos that is very much alive.

The existence of another universe who's Thanos died coming to the Prime timeline before he could enact the Snap is a nice bonus. That universe probably made out better.

I feel this film missed an obvious problem with the time heist issue - How are they able to target different locations including different planets ?

There are a lot of issues with the time travel plot.

Otherwise, how the hell is Steve Rodgers supposed to get to Asgard, Voramire or the planet Quill was on ?

This one at least I can answer: Miniaturize a ship with the Pym technology and take it in his pocket, of course.

Another issue: if the Stones are so important as the Ancient One said, what happens to the Prime timeline now that Thanos has destroyed them (presuming he wasn't, in fact, lying)?

Edit: Also, found this little bit of fan art that I very much wish was canon, on a few different levels:

[Crazedwraith]

There are a lot of issues with the time travel plot.

As I said last time which I think got missed. What are these 'lot of issues'?

It's pretty well explained. There's only two issues that I can tell:

• Steve's return to the original time line apparently breaks the rules. He should be in his own timeline. This can be explained if he return the original form an AU off screen but this isn't shown in the film

• The idea of returning things to the split timelines not resulting in more splits. (ie one where the stone was returned and one where it wasn't)

eta: There's no timeline where Thor doesn't have his hammer. Steve returned it as well as the stones, you can see him take it with him when he goes back in time. Also Heimdall isn't omniscient he can see nearly everything but he has to be actively looking and the time of the the future incursion he's busy fighting dark elves. He's not checking out random corridors with time travellers.

[The Romulan Republic]

Those are pretty big glitches, though, especially the latter one.

Also, the whole disregard for the alternate timelines and what happens there after the Avengers fuck with them, and treating alternate timeline duplicates of a person as interchangeable, bother me on plot and thematic levels, even if they're not plot holes.

[Crazedwraith]

Those are pretty big glitches, though, especially the latter one.

Also, the whole disregard for the alternate timelines and what happens there after the Avengers fuck with them, and treating alternate timeline duplicates of a person as interchangeable, bother me on plot and thematic levels, even if they're not plot holes.

The first one actually bothers me as it apparently breaks the rules of the setting. The second one I can handwave mentally as being a function of the time gpses or whatever. The closest things we have to experts think it will work.

I understand why you would have issues with those themes, I think Endgame does its best to avoid them. The AUs not being expendable is precisely the reason they go back to return the stones and 2014! Gamora is clearly distinct from the one who died, I expect GotG v3 to get a lot mileage out of that.

The most problematic AU that results is 'the Loki escapes in 2012' one and that was a big fuck up on part of the time team. The others can stand to lose their stones for a while, the one where Thor steals the past hammer in the middle of a battle is an eyebrow raiser as well but it shouldn't matter than much so long as Steve was very precise in returning it.

[PREDATOR490]

Thor: Dark World and Guardians of the Galaxy would logically be changed by the events of this film.

One would expect Heimdall to have his eyes on Natalie Portman.
I think a lot of eye brows will be raised when Natalie Portman is found incapacitated and had the Aether extracted / missing which would trigger an alert.
Not to mention how it is even MORE alarming Rodgers then decides to stick the Aether BACK in Natalie Portman. How would he even do that ?

Captain America clearly had the intention to alter events to get his own happy ending so... it does seem drastically out of character and selfish for him to do so without using the opportunity to help others. America could literally just walk up to Thor on Asgard, give him the Hammer AND Aether. Bonus points if he info-dumps about whats coming.

Fast forward - Somehow America is going to get to the planet Quil is on and drop the stone off. Is Quil going to still pick that stone up or wake up and leave by the time Steve shows up ?
In both cases, that stone should end up in the hands of Ronin who will use it unchallenged since the Guardians of the Galaxy will not form. Thanos, Gamorra and Nebula from that universe are gone.
Failing that, Quil ends up being used as a universe ending battery by his maniac dad.

[The Romulan Republic]

Thor: Dark World and Guardians of the Galaxy would logically be changed by the events of this film.

One would expect Heimdall to have his eyes on Natalie Portman.
I think a lot of eye brows will be raised when Natalie Portman is found incapacitated and had the Aether extracted / missing which would trigger an alert.
Not to mention how it is even MORE alarming Rodgers then decides to stick the Aether BACK in Natalie Portman. How would he even do that ?

Captain America clearly had the intention to alter events to get his own happy ending so... it does seem drastically out of character and selfish for him to do so without using the opportunity to help others. America could literally just walk up to Thor on Asgard, give him the Hammer AND Aether. Bonus points if he info-dumps about whats coming.

Fast forward - Somehow America is going to get to the planet Quil is on and drop the stone off. Is Quil going to still pick that stone up or wake up and leave by the time Steve shows up ?
In both cases, that stone should end up in the hands of Ronin who will use it unchallenged since the Guardians of the Galaxy will not form. Thanos, Gamorra and Nebula from that universe are gone.
Failing that, Quil ends up being used as a universe ending battery by his maniac dad.

Oh God. If the universe with no Thanos ends up having no Guardians, it could actually turn out worse, as Ego turns the entire fucking universe into extensions of himself.

Thanks, Avengers. Real heroes you are. Threw an entire cosmos under the bus to save your own.

See, you shouldn't write time travel into a story unless you are prepared to think this shit out really carefully. In fact, I am generally opposed to time travel as anything but a rarely-used fixed loop/self-fulfilling prophecy. Anything else gets really messy really fast if its not handled with more care than a nuclear reactor.

[Crazedwraith]

No Guardians means Ego never seeks out Peter he only does it because of rumours about him holding the infinity stone.

People are making a lot of assumptions things will go to shit just because they want to bitch.

[The Romulan Republic]

No Guardians means Ego never seeks out Peter he only does it because of rumours about him holding the infinity stone.

People are making a lot of assumptions things will go to shit just because they want to bitch.

People are making a lot of assumptions about other peoples' motives.

Sure it might not happen- but it also very well might. The thing is, the Avengers created all these different timelines with different sequences of events, events that will profoundly effect billions of sapient beings, and then left them with nary a care, seemingly, for what might come next, as long as their own reality was saved. That is not heroic. It is at best narrow-minded bumbling, and at worst sociopathic disregard.

Edit: Frankly, the Avengers seemed woefully ill-prepared for the implications of time travel, considering they had beings of Tony and Banner's brilliance, and that they had no deadline to plan. I feel like quoting Giles' rant at Willow from Buffy season six at them:

The magicks you channeled are more ferocious and primal than anything you can hope to understand, and you are lucky to be alive, you rank, arrogant amateur!

I mean, I have a fairly high tolerance for bad time travel plots if there's enough other stuff to make it worth watching- I'm a Doctor Who fan after all. But I have a feeling the Doctor would tear them a new one if he saw how they handled time travel.

[The Romulan Republic]

In fairness, I suppose its possible that Cap spent a few decades running around from timeline to timeline fixing everything, beyond just returning the stones. Except, as noted above, that contradicts how time travel is otherwise supposed to work in this setting.

[PREDATOR490]

The major problem with this film is that it attempts to dictate mechanics but then ignores the concrete rule and / or leaves a gigantic ambiguity.

A) I thought it was expressly stated the Avengers cannot change their own past. Thus, any 'past' they go to is another universe and any change that would alter their own past would create a split.

Problem - Somehow Captain America went back in time, altered Carter's fate and would have had a chain reaction which should have had a noticeable effect on the universe resulting in a divergent timeline from the original. This would mandate that the original Avengers cannot be in that same timeline as OMR living his life with Carter.

The logical conclusion is that for Old Cap to get his happy ending then universe events would have to be different than the 'original' universe. This would force the conclusion that the Avengers cannot be in the original universe. They are IN the Old Man Rodgers Universe where he had his life with Carter.
Thus, they never got back to their own universe and are in fact in the OMR split already. The Avengers have not noticed it or we have not been shown this yet and they will decide "close enough".

Knock on effects:
Q: All those people that were dusted are from the original timeline or from this split ?

The bigger issue is that the 'original' universe still exists with no Infinity Stones and all the Avengers vanished.

This also implies that this divergent timeline should already have its own version of the Avengers and Thanos. Unless events in this split still occurred mostly consistent with the original events and somehow OMR let things play out as he knew them all the way until the native Avengers went with their own heist plan. As a 'happy ending' for Rodgers, this does have a really nasty dark side in that he has let the rest of the universe 'pay' for his own personal conclusion.

Solution - Captain America went to another universe, had a life with Carter and then came back to drop off the shield.
On its own, this is actually easy to rectify as an issue and remain consistent with the film narrative.

That said, it still creates a situation where OMR has 'stolen' Carter from the native Rodgers to get his happy ending.
However, it does have the potential to avoid the dark side of Rodgers letting the world burn.

In theory, Rodgers could team up with Carter and create an ideal future with all this experience to avoid the original universe problems in the films.

Of course...

Q: What universe did Steve Rodgers retire too ?
Is it the same one they just stole all the stones from and killed Thanos ?

Problem: Rodgers has a life with Carter which ultimately changes that timeline which MUST create a split because otherwise it would directly change the universe the time heist occurred in.

End Result: OMR is not just from an alternate universe, he is from a split of that alternate universe. One which would have to have Thanos and co. still alive unless Rodgers somehow off-screened an inter-galactic campaign that resulted in a 'Better' future.

-----

The issues with the Time Travel come from the fallout / unintended implications of the stakes being put forth by the narrative.

B) The Ancient One dictated that taking the stones creates splits. Additionally, an implication exists that altering events also creates a split because altering your own past is impossible.

Problem: A major ambiguity exists regarding what actually happens here.

Questions:

Q: Does simply TAKING the stones cause the split or did putting them back nullify this ?

Q: Does taking the stones from a single universe at the same time but at different locations only result in one split or a split for each individual stone ?

Facts: Loki took one of the stones due to a blunder
Q: Does this cause a split ?

Fact: Due to the blunder, the Avengers had to jump again to get their stone
Q: Does this cause an individual split and / or even in the same timeline universe as the original heist target with Loki stealing the stone ?

Fact: Loki is seen in the Asgard Cell consistent with the events of Thor: Dark World
Q: Is this the same Loki that got away ?

Fact: Thanos, Gamorra and Nebula come from a different universe and were killed / removed from play
Q: Will their absence cause a split ?

Fundamentally, the amount of splitting could very well be infinite and from a greater narrative perspective aptly appropriate.

However, the greater consequences are also significantly higher because splitting essentially means those universe have been adversely affected by the actions of the Avengers saving their own without any acknowledgement of what they have done. Even if returning the stones nullified the greater splitting effect, that still leaves the fallout from the the Avengers actions intentionally or not.

I.E Loki got away - Since Loki is apparently getting his own series then any havoc he causes is by direct consequence of the Avengers actions without any attempt to rectify it. Of course, the major contention is if this series is going to show Loki jumping to what we consider the 'prime' universe or if the franchise is going to start doing alternate universe pieces.

Guardians of the Galaxy - Is going to play out drastically differently. Ronin gets the stone and obliterates Xandar ??? then potentially fulfils his promise in Captain Marvel to come back to Earth. Without Gamorra or Nebula, the rest of the Guardians are going to die. Ronin will kill Drax and likely Quil.

Steve Rodgers - The biggest ambiguity. OMR by existence unintentionally proves Tony and Banner wrong or right with an truckload of knock on considerations no matter what way it goes.

Generally, the ethical and moral consideration comes into play when dealing with the idea that in order to save one universe, The Avengers have potentially caused an infinite amount of harm. This might be realistic and ultimately create an interesting mental exercise but it does leave a souring after taste.


Afterthought:
Banner said he tried to bring back Black Widow but it failed.
Consideration: Did he fail because it cannot be done or did he fail because he is trying to bring back someone that died in another universe and the stones cannot reach into other universes ?

Why did Thanos get soul visions from Gamorra but Widow never did the same to Banner or Hawkeye ?

If the stones can reach across other universes - Did Tony's click wipe out Thanos from one universe or ALL of them ?
The latter would have a rather hilarious and colossal brutal finality to it.

[The Romulan Republic]

And now I'm imagining that in some out of the infinite possible time lines, Thanos was a kind, decent man, happily raising his adopted daughters before Tony turned them all to dust.

[Crazedwraith]

No Guardians means Ego never seeks out Peter he only does it because of rumours about him holding the infinity stone.

People are making a lot of assumptions things will go to shit just because they want to bitch.

People are making a lot of assumptions about other peoples' motives.

Get off your high horse.

By that logic no one should do anything because, whelp, it might turn out badly.

[The Romulan Republic]

You seem determined to pick a fight here, though I'm honestly not sure why.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Did anyone else here notice that Thanos' sword is very similar to Sentinel Prime's?

I'm glad this thread started up again, right now Endgame is within $70m of surpassing Avatar's box office gross, though I fear it running out of steam before it gets there.

It did prompt me to do a head-count though. Of the six original Avengers, Black Widow and Iron Man are dead, Captain America is retired, Hulk is now Professor Hulk and is going to be more valuable for his intellect than his strength now. Assuming this state is permanent he's never going to get laid again either. Hulk with blue green balls is a terrifying prospect! Thor is now the Blob and flying around with the Guardians of the Galaxy. So the only Avenger that's relatively unchanged is Hawkeye, though he himself spent half a decade as Ronin.

[K. A. Pital]

Iron Man got what was coming to him. That arms dealer.

[The Romulan Republic]

Did anyone else here notice that Thanos' sword is very similar to Sentinel Prime's?

I'm glad this thread started up again, right now Endgame is within $70m of surpassing Avatar's box office gross, though I fear it running out of steam before it gets there.

It did prompt me to do a head-count though. Of the six original Avengers, Black Widow and Iron Man are dead, Captain America is retired, Hulk is now Professor Hulk and is going to be more valuable for his intellect than his strength now. Assuming this state is permanent he's never going to get laid again either. Hulk with blue green balls is a terrifying prospect! Thor is now the Blob and flying around with the Guardians of the Galaxy. So the only Avenger that's relatively unchanged is Hawkeye, though he himself spent half a decade as Ronin.

Hulk is still more than capable of holding his own in both arenas. And I honestly can see Hawkeye, with guilt over his actions as Ronan and with Black Widow dead, retiring again from heroing to spend time with his resurrected family.

Which means that Hulk is probably the last of the Old Guard, with the ranks being filled out by Falcon, Rodey, Antman (and maybe Wasp now?), Spidey, and Wanda (I don't see T'Challa or Strange being full-time Avengers- they have their own things going).

Thor and Nebula are now more aligned with the Guardians, I'd guess, but would probably still pitch in to help if needed and available.

Captain Marvel is a part-timer, due to having the whole universe to cover (though Thor and the Guardians can help here).

Edit: Now that Banner seems to have full control of the Hulk, in addition to his first-rate brain, he's actually one of the most damn powerful people in the world. Also, given that his fear of Hulking during sex was a major reason for his leaving Black Widow IIRC, I would have liked to see their relationship addressed, at least a little, now that that was no longer such a concern.

[The Romulan Republic]

Iron Man got what was coming to him. That arms dealer.

Got what? A vast fortune, a loving family, the ultimate act of atonement for every mistake he's made, a hero's death and an honoured memory?

Pity his kid will grow up without a dad, but that's not a bad ending, overall.

[Gandalf]

Maybe in the afterlife he'll meet those who died by his varied creations, from the varied missiles, to Ultron.

[The Romulan Republic]

Maybe in the afterlife he'll meet those who died by his varied creations, from the varied missiles, to Ultron.

Maybe he'll end up in the Soul Stone dimension, with Gamora and Black Widow. Given that he also suffered death by the Stones, of a sort.

Edit: Heh, imagine if Thanos is there. Or all the Thanoses.