Vader vs Obi-Wan fight fanfilm

[Jub]

The newer movies aren't made by George Lucas. They are mostly made by people trying to emulate Lucas, without embracing some of his quirkiness as a director.

You say that like it's not common knowledge...

I saw the prequels before I saw the OT, or at the least I've seen all of them together at the same time so I didn't think the OT is better than the PT. The PT have flaws, but they aren't big enough to bother me personally.

You've admitted to finding anything less than full-on wushu sword fights boring so it doesn't surprise me that you don't have a strong connection to the slower pacing of the OT. I can't even imagine what you'd think of 2001 with your apparent need for hyperaction.

This kind of attitudes feels very much like American/western cultural supremacist at work here. Because if places like India, Japan and China have no problem embracing Hollywood blockbusters, Disney films and etc, there really shouldn't be a strong reason why different kind of movies can't meet your cultural sensibilities.

They have no problem watching movies with usually twice to three times the budget and star actors in them versus their own country's often budget product. It doesn't take a genius to see why this particular cultural exchange only goes one way.

You guys comes from a very culturally privileged position, so I find this kind of attitude problematic.

Then match Hollywood in terms of budget and, unlike some recent big-budget Chinese flops, don't try to poorly ape something we're already making. Also, don't just hire one established Hollywood actor, toss them amidst a bunch of local actors of questionable skill, and expect us to watch it. Match Hollywood in both skill and budget and we'll probably give it a try.

Plus, the common western thought is that China and India either make wuxia/Bollywood films or they do western style blockbusters but worse. Show us that you're not that one note and it'll improve things.

Also, the success of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon in the US showed American audience as being able to engage with Chinese Wuxia movies.

Name another wuxia style movie that had the same level of success over here?

I think constantly changing vision is good for a franchise because a franchise needs to evolve or die. The prequels, no matter their flaws, were massive success in the early 2000s and ushered in a whole new generation of fans to the franchise. I think every generation of SW films needs to be different if it is to excite new audiences.

No, that leads to a long-running series feeling schizophrenic. Imagine if a series like GoT changed to a sitcom like style for a season, and they wanted to be a soap opera the next, it would be awful. Also, how dead is the MCU? Not dead at all. How much evolving has it done? Precious little.

Your tastes may be for sweeping periodic change but the market doesn't seem to care for it much at all.

That's even true in China where shit like Transformers, Warcraft, Need for Speed, San Andreas, Robocop (2014) and other dreck thrived in spite of bombing over here. So don't pretend like the average Chinese moviegoer is actually cultured.

[Jub]

That is a problem for American audiences to figure it out. Perhaps if Americans/westerners are more relaxed/ get exposed to more diverse forms of movies when they are young, they won't mind those kinds of movies.

If Indians have no problem watching a movie like Avengers Endgame, then I don't see why Americans audiences should have problem embracing different style of movies.

Ray, we're spoiled for choice over here. If I don't like the movies in theater I have access to Nextflix, Hulu, YouTube, Twitch or I could play a videogame, read a book, go for a walk, I don't have to learn to like a genre I'm not interested in just because there's nothing else to do. I don't know why western media is big outside of the west but it probably has to do with budget and technical expertise that other major film producing nations haven't yet managed to consistently match.

I even like foreign media and have no issues with subtitles, it's just that I tend to go for Japanese or Dutch films and not Chinese or Indian films which rarely appeal to me.

[ray245]

You've admitted to finding anything less than full-on wushu sword fights boring so it doesn't surprise me that you don't have a strong connection to the slower pacing of the OT. I can't even imagine what you'd think of 2001 with your apparent need for hyperaction.

I don't want SW to be akin to 2001 because SW has never tried to be 2001? I can enjoy 2001 for different reasons from a SW movie.

I see SW movies as fun action flicks set in fantasy space.

They have no problem watching movies with usually twice to three times the budget and star actors in them versus their own country's often budget product. It doesn't take a genius to see why this particular cultural exchange only goes one way.

Except you're not talking about production values. You're talking about the style of those movies.

Then match Hollywood in terms of budget and, unlike some recent big-budget Chinese flops, don't try to poorly ape something we're already making. Also, don't just hire one established Hollywood actor, toss them amidst a bunch of local actors of questionable skill, and expect us to watch it. Match Hollywood in both skill and budget and we'll probably give it a try.

Plus, the common western thought is that China and India either make wuxia/Bollywood films or they do western style blockbusters but worse. Show us that you're not that one note and it'll improve things.

See above.

Name another wuxia style movie that had the same level of success over here?

Hero?

No, that leads to a long-running series feeling schizophrenic. Imagine if a series like GoT changed to a sitcom like style for a season, and they wanted to be a soap opera the next, it would be awful. Also, how dead is the MCU? Not dead at all. How much evolving has it done? Precious little.

Your tastes may be for sweeping periodic change but the market doesn't seem to care for it much at all.

That's even true in China where shit like Transformers, Warcraft, Need for Speed, San Andreas, Robocop (2014) and other dreck thrived in spite of bombing over here. So don't pretend like the average Chinese moviegoer is actually cultured.

MCU has evolved in terms of story telling and genre. Iron Man 1 feels entirely different from Endgame. A techno thriller evolved into full on space fantasy. I argue that the reason why the new SW movies failed in China has a lot to do with trying to recreate the same tone as the OT. To a market that never watched the OT, they will find the movie to be dated and can only appeal to a tiny minority in China that were lucky to have seen the original movies when they were young.

[Shroom Man 777]

Musicals have existed in the US and the West, and animated Disney films still involve singing parts, so a Bollywood-style epic film with singing bits and interludes won't be far-fetched... as long as the music plays to local tastes. I mean imagine if there was a Tron-ishy cyberpunky film and the song and dance numbers were done by Lady Gaga or something.

You might not like them, but I feel that your preference is more specific than most average movie goers. The prequels fights was enjoyable enough to many people, with the fight in Ep I always being mentioned as enjoyable even by many people who disliked the prequels.

It's not just MY take, we can see comparable developments in fight choreography where quick and authentic-seeming gunplay and close quarters combat gaining more prominence (John Wick, Collateral, Taken, Bourne etc. style "realistic" film combat) and being used to more dramatic effect than the stuff we saw in the old Rambo and Schwarzenegger scenes. Same with swordplay where in these days we see more HEMA influences, or Rob Roy's very authentic duel scenes compared to some Zorro-esque fencing through a burning castle type of shtick.

Anyway. Episode 1's choreo and scenes were excellent, Ray Park is excellent too... but AOTC's duels weren't as excellent and while ROTS' finale fights between Kenobi and Anakin, and Yoda and Palpatine were memorable, on a critical level they and the whole movie falls short compared to ESB and ROTJ. The fights in themselves may be "better" choreo-wise but, again, storytelling wise and as part of the greater film and as the culmination of the film, the excesses of the Prequel fight choreography didn't gel well.

I mean it's like a comic book/graphic novel wherein prose has to merge well with the visual aspect. You can't have half the page just be all text, overpowering and cramming the illustrations instead of working with them.

Even your "Chinese style" comparisons might not work because films like Once Upon a Time in China and other flippy stuff DO take their time to breathe, have the characters emote during the fight, and have pacing unlike the all-out non-stop-action of the Prequels. This is like the Ip Man vs. dozen-karate-guys scene compared to the Burly Brawl in The Matrix: Reloaded.

There you go, I think the Prequels suffer from the same "show them so much awesome" problems as the Matrix sequels with regards to fight choreo. They indulged too much.

The prequel style fights are flashy, but I feel many of the complaints about them are more based in OT nostalgia and fanboyism. You can prefer the OT fights, but I think people need to accept the primary reasons being they've seen the OT first and the OT left a much bigger impression on them. If people saw the prequels first, then they tend to be less nostalgic about the whole OT style duel is better kind of mindset.

Dude we're both roughly the same age. I really only properly watched the OT films when the Prequels were out, in the 2000s. ESB and ROTJ blew me away.

Anyway, ESB and ROTJ's fights work best not just because "subdued swordplay" is better, it's not necessarily better, but it's because of the moments of suspense where Luke's navigating the halls, where they exchange intense dialogue, where we see their emotions shift through it all - the tension, the development of the mood, these connect to the character development and plot progression, the fight serves the story as a vehicle for revelations like Vader's identity, Leia being the sister, Luke's defiance of Palpatine and his surrender. Whereas with Anakin vs. Kenobi went from zero to sixty and didn't slow down at all - and sure that's awesome flipping and swinging... but for how many minutes there was nothing except "RAAAH!" bzzt-swish-slash-vrrroooommm until the very end with the "I've got the high ground" thing.

Think about it. Think about WWE or WWF, and how story and character have to come through while Stone Cold and the Rock and Undertaker are bouncing on the ropes, bodyslamming each other, etc.

I mean this is why Ripley versus the Queen Alien still holds up and is remembered whereas all the Bayformers with their Baysplosions and Bayforminations are forgettable.

[Shroom Man 777]

Also, the success of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon in the US showed American audience as being able to engage with Chinese Wuxia movies.
Name another wuxia style movie that had the same level of success over here?

Hero, as Ray pointed out too. And the Matrix movies Even Kill Bill.

Not wuxia swordplay but an evolution of that same school of choreography would be... Jackie Chan movies

Even then, Ray's point is diluted because he might be bored by films using "kendo" and Kurosawa-style samurai flicks, with short, quick and brutal fights that draw influence from Western quick draws.

I mean, this evolved from Ray's preference for the wuxia-type of choreography which... don't display the most practical techniques around because they're acrobatics and embellishment (embellishing actual techniques). So this isn't even really about East versus West.

He might as well say that real-life combatives and CQC-based film fight scenes like Bourne or MMA fights aren't as awesome as lucha because they keep on moving and doing things fast (no discredit to the art of lucha OR wushu) and because that's what he watched.

[Crazedwraith]

ANH's fight isn't a sacred cow to me or anything but that scene was not a improvement to me.

Partially because they try so hard to fit it into the original footage. If you just reshot it with recast people and copped to it it would better because you wouldn't be constantly shooting at weird angles with Obi-Wan's hood up to avoid showing it's not Alec Guiness.

But also it's just gratuitous and silly, why are they getting so close to the walls apart from show off the sabres? Why have a bunch of crate suddenly been transported into the room apart from to be TKed about?

You could do a lot to improve the scene with better sword fighters and consistent lightsaber effects anything else is just frippery.

I'd like to see their taken on the ESB scenes where like is suddenly wearing a hood so they can one-up this one.

[Enigma]

No love for IP Man?

[ray245]

Musicals have existed in the US and the West, and animated Disney films still involve singing parts, so a Bollywood-style epic film with singing bits and interludes won't be far-fetched... as long as the music plays to local tastes. I mean imagine if there was a Tron-ishy cyberpunky film and the song and dance numbers were done by Lady Gaga or something.

This is why I don't think you can make an argument that people will reject certain "style" of movies.

It's not just MY take, we can see comparable developments in fight choreography where quick and authentic-seeming gunplay and close quarters combat gaining more prominence (John Wick, Collateral, Taken, Bourne etc. style "realistic" film combat) and being used to more dramatic effect than the stuff we saw in the old Rambo and Schwarzenegger scenes. Same with swordplay where in these days we see more HEMA influences, or Rob Roy's very authentic duel scenes compared to some Zorro-esque fencing through a burning castle type of shtick.

The point is despite what the fans on the Internet would like people to think, the prequels were popular movies. The same can also be applied to movies like Matrix.

The rise and popularity of "realistic" film combat is largely to do with the kind of movies that were being produced, with Chris Nolan and Bourne movies being a major influence on action films. Action fims tries to become more "realistic" and "grounded" in reality. While that might work for certain kind of movies, Star Wars has never been grounded in reality. SW has always been about creating fantasitical sequences that doesn't reflect actual science.

Look at the type of Sci-fi movies Nolan likes to produce (i.e. Interstellar).

Anyway. Episode 1's choreo and scenes were excellent, Ray Park is excellent too... but AOTC's duels weren't as excellent and while ROTS' finale fights between Kenobi and Anakin, and Yoda and Palpatine were memorable, on a critical level they and the whole movie falls short compared to ESB and ROTJ. The fights in themselves may be "better" choreo-wise but, again, storytelling wise and as part of the greater film and as the culmination of the film, the excesses of the Prequel fight choreography didn't gel well.

I think Ep 3 has some of the best choreography in terms of using choreography to tell a narrative. The choreography of the fight between Anakin and Obi-Wan is meant to show how well the two characters knew each other, and I can see this being reflected in the whole fight sequence.

On the other hand, I think the overall style of fight in ESB and ROTJ fails to deliver the threat of Vader. Neither does it reflect well on Luke's mastery in lightsaber combat. For example, the part where Luke is finally having the upper hand against Vader in ROTJ, Luke launch a series of furious strikes at Vader, but the overall slow pace of the hits does not make me feel Vader is actually being overwhelmed by Luke.

The reason that scene work so well is because the music of John Williams elevates the scene really well.

I mean it's like a comic book/graphic novel wherein prose has to merge well with the visual aspect. You can't have half the page just be all text, overpowering and cramming the illustrations instead of working with them.

My point is there is an entirely different way to approach the "text". Instead of looking at "text" in a comic book, sometimes you can approach looking at "text" as an illustration all to itself. In fact, exceptionally wordy text in One Punch Man manga has done that, by depicting the sheer length of a speech bubble as an illustration ( you're not seriously meant to read it all).

Even your "Chinese style" comparisons might not work because films like Once Upon a Time in China and other flippy stuff DO take their time to breathe, have the characters emote during the fight, and have pacing unlike the all-out non-stop-action of the Prequels. This is like the Ip Man vs. dozen-karate-guys scene compared to the Burly Brawl in The Matrix: Reloaded.

The characters did have time to breath in Ep I. There's a whole scene where the pace of the fight slows down. The fight between Anakin and Obi-Wan is different because it's the body language and the choreography itself that is doing the emoting. Using body language to tell a narrative is possible, and entire genre of performance art ( such as ballet) is all about emoting via body language and choreography.

There you go, I think the Prequels suffer from the same "show them so much awesome" problems as the Matrix sequels with regards to fight choreo. They indulged too much.

Whether they indulged too much is very much based on personal preferences. The fact that many SW fans want to emulate the style of prequel fights in their fanfilms and actual stage performance suggest there are many people that really enjoy the "so much awesome" fight scenes.

You rarely see any SW fanfilm trying to recreate the style of fight in the OT.

Dude we're both roughly the same age. I really only properly watched the OT films when the Prequels were out, in the 2000s. ESB and ROTJ blew me away.

We can be of the same age and still be affected differently by the OT and the PT. The space battles aspect of the OT blew me away. The lightsaber combat, not so much.

Anyway, ESB and ROTJ's fights work best not just because "subdued swordplay" is better, it's not necessarily better, but it's because of the moments of suspense where Luke's navigating the halls, where they exchange intense dialogue, where we see their emotions shift through it all - the tension, the development of the mood, these connect to the character development and plot progression, the fight serves the story as a vehicle for revelations like Vader's identity, Leia being the sister, Luke's defiance of Palpatine and his surrender. Whereas with Anakin vs. Kenobi went from zero to sixty and didn't slow down at all - and sure that's awesome flipping and swinging... but for how many minutes there was nothing except "RAAAH!" bzzt-swish-slash-vrrroooommm until the very end with the "I've got the high ground" thing.

Those are how the script is written, which is different from the choreography style. You can have flashy choreography and still use those good dialogue.

I think you need to distinguish the script from the choreography. They are two different things.

Think about it. Think about WWE or WWF, and how story and character have to come through while Stone Cold and the Rock and Undertaker are bouncing on the ropes, bodyslamming each other, etc.

And people in wrestling will tell you the whole choreography of the fight is a narrative onto its own. It's all staged, but people can follow a certain narrative structure even by looking at the fights itself. WWE might be "fake" to you, but there are many fans who clearly enjoy the fights.

I mean this is why Ripley versus the Queen Alien still holds up and is remembered whereas all the Bayformers with their Baysplosions and Bayforminations are forgettable.

Again, this is a matter of preference. You think the fights in transformers are forgettable, but I've met people who do gush endlessly about the fights in Transformers.

I think the basis of your critique is a becoming a little outdated, because you seem to rely on the older view that well written dialogue/story cannot go together with flashy choreography. The two thing aren't mutually exclusive.

[Shroom Man 777]

Those are how the script is written, which is different from the choreography style. You can have flashy choreography and still use those good dialogue.

I think you need to distinguish the script from the choreography. They are two different things.

That's what I'm trying to explain, when films are showcasing so much of the fight that the rest of the script - and how the script connects the fight with the rest of the plot - becomes overwhelmed and compromised. The final duels in AOTC, particularly wushu Yoda and flailing Anakin, for example... probably the most unremarkable duel.

On the other hand, I think the overall style of fight in ESB and ROTJ fails to deliver the threat of Vader. Neither does it reflect well on Luke's mastery in lightsaber combat. For example, the part where Luke is finally having the upper hand against Vader in ROTJ, Luke launch a series of furious strikes at Vader, but the overall slow pace of the hits does not make me feel Vader is actually being overwhelmed by Luke.

It's the most iconic moment in Star Wars, because it blends seamlessly with the plot (and yes the music), and it outdoes ROTS' unending through-corridors-through-falling-buildings-through-lava fight.

The fact that many SW fans want to emulate the style of prequel fights in their fanfilms and actual stage performance suggest there are many people that really enjoy the "so much awesome" fight scenes.

You rarely see any SW fanfilm trying to recreate the style of fight in the OT.

Fanfilms aren't exactly gauges of quality. Sure, spinning and twirling is fun and enjoyable and that's great, but how well does it serve the overall plot?

Of course, these can be used as well as more subdued swordplay styles.

And people in wrestling will tell you the whole choreography of the fight is a narrative onto its own. It's all staged, but people can follow a certain narrative structure even by looking at the fights itself. WWE might be "fake" to you, but there are many fans who clearly enjoy the fights.

Exactly! Endless breathless flipping won't have any narrative structure. Even among wrestlers the seasoned veterans and really iconic ones will say that there's more to the choreographed fight than endless moves and stunts and flips (the term for the most extreme of these is "spot monkey"), there has to be pacing and you can even be relatively conservative yet make the whole stage explode. Randy Orton, Stone Cold, Brett Hart, even Cena, they go on at length about how pace and psychology means it shouldn't be always super-fast zero-to-sixty miles per hour action.

I mean I really do enjoy both "realistic" quasi-MMA quasi-shoot wrestling matches (like those in Japan) as well as more theatrical if less insanely-athletic ones like the Attitude Era stuff (Stone Cold had to slow down and use develop charisma and storytelling due to his spine and knee injuries), as well as current era insanely atheltic flippy stuff.

I think the basis of your critique is a becoming a little outdated, because you seem to rely on the older view that well written dialogue/story cannot go together with flashy choreography. The two thing aren't mutually exclusive.

Swap the dated Ripley and Aliens mech fight with Guillermo's monster fights and Pacific Rim then, in his case he doesn't go too indulgent with the spectacle to the point of losing the story.

I do not think dialogue, story and flashy choreography are mutually exclusive. I just think the flashy stuff in the Prequels is a misuse or overuse or over-indulgence, they relied on it so much that it compromised other aspects.

It's like the filmmakers were themselves so dazzled by it that they forgot the rest of the important stuff.

Compare that with old Jackie Chan films and Jet Li's Once Upon a Time in China films have flashy choreography but remember storytelling and use the choreography to service the story. Even in the sequels were Jet Li is for some reason Dragon/Lion Dancing against flamethrower-centipedes to save China from imperialists.

Of course it's an unfair comparison since Jackie Chan films and Jet Li's Wong Fei Hong movies not only star atheltic prodigies but are also produced in an environment steeped with experience and expertise in that matter, whereas as we see with the AOTC arena fight, Lucasfilm doesn't have that degree of resource in that field (wushu, wire-fu pros)... no offense to Ray Park and others, but yeah what Hong Kong cinema has is another caliber altogether.

I'm not saying quick flashy fights cannot have storytelling, I'm saying that in the Prequels it was done in that way. And... well, I think aside from the story-less flashy duels the same symptom is evident in their other fight scenes. Yavin, Hoth, Endor's space war and even the ROTJ ground fight with the Ewoks were more compelling than "clones rushing at droids" or "pew-pew oh no BUZZDROIDS."

I think this isn't a problem with the choreo or the CG, it's that the films were so in love with the choreo and the CG that they forgot the other essential aspects.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think there isn't one "right" way to shoot a lightsaber duel, or fight scenes generally. It depends on the setting, plot, characters, their level of experience and training, and the themes and style of the overall work. A master of a "more civilized age", like Dooku or Obi-wan, should fight with more elegance than a more rough around the edges, learned-on-the-job character like Luke or Rey. A character who tends towards berserker rage or has vast reservoirs of raw power or physical bulk to call on should fight differently than someone who weighs a hundred pounds and has limited or no supernatural powers. One character might favor defensive techniques while another favors aggression. One like Yoda, limited in size and age, may rely on the Force to engage in acrobatics to compensate for physical limitations. Etc.

[ray245]

That's what I'm trying to explain, when films are showcasing so much of the fight that the rest of the script - and how the script connects the fight with the rest of the plot - becomes overwhelmed and compromised. The final duels in AOTC, particularly wushu Yoda and flailing Anakin, for example... probably the most unremarkable duel.

Wushu Yoda works when you see it for the first time in the cinema. Audience didn't know what to expect from Yoda, and to see him jumping arond makes you feel "wow, that's really cool, I didn't know he can do that".

It's the most iconic moment in Star Wars, because it blends seamlessly with the plot (and yes the music), and it outdoes ROTS' unending through-corridors-through-falling-buildings-through-lava fight.

That's your preference though. I prefer the speed and continuous flow of action when they are dueling each other. There's no words left to be said, only the duel itself can say what the characters are feeling about each other. Watching them dangling on a collapsed crane and still trying to kill each other, reveals more about them than words alone.

Dialogue is not the only way you can communicate with the audience.

Fanfilms aren't exactly gauges of quality. Sure, spinning and twirling is fun and enjoyable and that's great, but how well does it serve the overall plot?

Of course, these can be used as well as more subdued swordplay styles.

I'm not talking about the quality of the fanfilms. I am talking about the style of the fights. Fanfilms emulating the prequel style fights suggest these are fans who enjoy these kind of duel, and they want to share their love for this style to other fans.

Exactly! Endless breathless flipping won't have any narrative structure. Even among wrestlers the seasoned veterans and really iconic ones will say that there's more to the choreographed fight than endless moves and stunts and flips (the term for the most extreme of these is "spot monkey"), there has to be pacing and you can even be relatively conservative yet make the whole stage explode. Randy Orton, Stone Cold, Brett Hart, even Cena, they go on at length about how pace and psychology means it shouldn't be always super-fast zero-to-sixty miles per hour action.

I mean I really do enjoy both "realistic" quasi-MMA quasi-shoot wrestling matches (like those in Japan) as well as more theatrical if less insanely-athletic ones like the Attitude Era stuff (Stone Cold had to slow down and use develop charisma and storytelling due to his spine and knee injuries), as well as current era insanely atheltic flippy stuff.

You misunderstood my point. I am saying endless breathless flipping can have a narrative structure, as long as the choreographers put thought behind every move, when is the climax of the fight, how the fight is resolved.

Swap the dated Ripley and Aliens mech fight with Guillermo's monster fights and Pacific Rim then, in his case he doesn't go too indulgent with the spectacle to the point of losing the story.

I do not think dialogue, story and flashy choreography are mutually exclusive. I just think the flashy stuff in the Prequels is a misuse or overuse or over-indulgence, they relied on it so much that it compromised other aspects.

It's like the filmmakers were themselves so dazzled by it that they forgot the rest of the important stuff.

Compare that with old Jackie Chan films and Jet Li's Once Upon a Time in China films have flashy choreography but remember storytelling and use the choreography to service the story. Even in the sequels were Jet Li is for some reason Dragon/Lion Dancing against flamethrower-centipedes to save China from imperialists.

Of course it's an unfair comparison since Jackie Chan films and Jet Li's Wong Fei Hong movies not only star atheltic prodigies but are also produced in an environment steeped with experience and expertise in that matter, whereas as we see with the AOTC arena fight, Lucasfilm doesn't have that degree of resource in that field (wushu, wire-fu pros)... no offense to Ray Park and others, but yeah what Hong Kong cinema has is another caliber altogether.

I'm not saying quick flashy fights cannot have storytelling, I'm saying that in the Prequels it was done in that way. And... well, I think aside from the story-less flashy duels the same symptom is evident in their other fight scenes. Yavin, Hoth, Endor's space war and even the ROTJ ground fight with the Ewoks were more compelling than "clones rushing at droids" or "pew-pew oh no BUZZDROIDS."

I think this isn't a problem with the choreo or the CG, it's that the films were so in love with the choreo and the CG that they forgot the other essential aspects.

I don't see it as a overindulgence. If anything, I find many of the scenes to be relatively subdued. To me, SW is all about the spectacle, the grandness of the fights and battles. Honestly, I was incredibly underwhelmed by the Battle of Hoth because I barely saw any of the imperial snowtroopers doing anything. The Walkers are fine, but I don't think they really convey the "epic scale" of the fights.

[Shroom Man 777]

Wushu Yoda works when you see it for the first time in the cinema. Audience didn't know what to expect from Yoda, and to see him jumping arond makes you feel "wow, that's really cool, I didn't know he can do that".

It was both incredible and kind of silly even at the time.

That's your preference though. I prefer the speed and continuous flow of action when they are dueling each other. There's no words left to be said, only the duel itself can say what the characters are feeling about each other. Watching them dangling on a collapsed crane and still trying to kill each other, reveals more about them than words alone.

Dialogue is not the only way you can communicate with the audience.

For most of it there was no communication though because they were spinning around ridiculously. In pro-wrestling terms this would get criticism of too much "spots" (i.e. spectacular displays) at the expense of physical storytelling. I mean, aside from Obi-Wan sometimes yielding from Anakin's advance - which we only see a few times, and only meaningfully in the end - the twirling and swooshing doesn't really communicate much.

I'm not talking about the quality of the fanfilms. I am talking about the style of the fights. Fanfilms emulating the prequel style fights suggest these are fans who enjoy these kind of duel, and they want to share their love for this style to other fans.

Eh sure. People I know actually integrate HEMA and kendo into their lightsabering in their saber clubs. I do see a lot of HEMA and kendo people elsewhere who inevitably are Warsies and pick up those training-grade plastic lightsabers.

You misunderstood my point. I am saying endless breathless flipping can have a narrative structure, as long as the choreographers put thought behind every move, when is the climax of the fight, how the fight is resolved.

The way it came off to me, they were too enamored by the spectacle to actually put more thought into their scenes. It could've been much more thoughtful.

As I mention previously, the same criticism applies to other non-saber battle scenes whether it's the ground forces or fighters and capships. We could be talking about those, instead of the lightsaber fights, and I'd be griping about the same thing

So I think their enamoring with the spectacle compromised even the ability to tell the story in the swishy-fast-action-swordfights fashion you prefer.

I don't see it as a overindulgence. If anything, I find many of the scenes to be relatively subdued. To me, SW is all about the spectacle, the grandness of the fights and battles. Honestly, I was incredibly underwhelmed by the Battle of Hoth because I barely saw any of the imperial snowtroopers doing anything. The Walkers are fine, but I don't think they really convey the "epic scale" of the fights.

They were massacrating the base. IMO, the Hoth defense, the ANH boarding, the ROTJ jungle fight, worked better than the rushing CG hordes in AOTC and in ROTS. I think those OT scenes told a story better and made the fighting feel more because we get to see people IN them, whether it's the troops who get massacred in the Tantive or the commandos in Endor - we get to see their faces, we get to see the walls and trees around them explode, etc. Whereas in the Prequels most of the battle scenes were like... background scenes or RTS scenes. The Hobbit films and the big battle scenes in Marvel movies are similar in this regard. (At least in the first LOTR movies, we get to see the nitty gritty POVs of Aragorn, Gimli, Eowen in the thick of it which enhances the whole thing, the wide shots of the engaging armies are meant to be work together with these closer scenes... in the Battle of the Five Armies we didn't even get to see the dwarves in the thick of it ). <--- OK I'm digressing here, sorry lol.

[ray245]

It was both incredible and kind of silly even at the time.

All I can say is I enjoyed it.

For most of it there was no communication though because they were spinning around ridiculously. In pro-wrestling terms this would get criticism of too much "spots" (i.e. spectacular displays) at the expense of physical storytelling. I mean, aside from Obi-Wan sometimes yielding from Anakin's advance - which we only see a few times, and only meaningfully in the end - the twirling and swooshing doesn't really communicate much.

It's the ability of both Anakin and Obi-Want to basically telegraph each other's moves in advance, and Obi-Wan consistent attempt at giving ground to hold off the attacks of Anakin that reveals the two fighters' familiarity with each other and the powers of Anakin. Obi-Wan's knew he could not match Anakin in terms of aggression and attacks, and his entire fight was to gain the "high ground".

Eh sure. People I know actually integrate HEMA and kendo into their lightsabering in their saber clubs. I do see a lot of HEMA and kendo people elsewhere who inevitably are Warsies and pick up those training-grade plastic lightsabers.

It might be fun to intergrate HEMA and Kendo into practice session, but that is inherently different from a staged performance. Even Japanese Samurai movies try and make their fights more stylish than actual kendo duels, because a fight meant for public display is different from a practice session.

It's the same thing in Wushu. An actual wushu combat, and how you train to take down your opponents with your wushu training is very different from putting up a wushu performance on stage.

The way it came off to me, they were too enamored by the spectacle to actually put more thought into their scenes. It could've been much more thoughtful.

As I mention previously, the same criticism applies to other non-saber battle scenes whether it's the ground forces or fighters and capships. We could be talking about those, instead of the lightsaber fights, and I'd be griping about the same thing

So I think their enamoring with the spectacle compromised even the ability to tell the story in the swishy-fast-action-swordfights fashion you prefer.

I see the spectacle as the key driving force of the movies, with the story acting as the supplement to support those spectacular moments. Movies like Transformers don't have the best writing, but they are able to entertain a large segment of the audience because the spectacle by itself enough.

They were massacrating the base. IMO, the Hoth defense, the ANH boarding, the ROTJ jungle fight, worked better than the rushing CG hordes in AOTC and in ROTS. I think those OT scenes told a story better and made the fighting feel more because we get to see people IN them, whether it's the troops who get massacred in the Tantive or the commandos in Endor - we get to see their faces, we get to see the walls and trees around them explode, etc. Whereas in the Prequels most of the battle scenes were like... background scenes or RTS scenes. The Hobbit films and the big battle scenes in Marvel movies are similar in this regard. (At least in the first LOTR movies, we get to see the nitty gritty POVs of Aragorn, Gimli, Eowen in the thick of it which enhances the whole thing, the wide shots of the engaging armies are meant to be work together with these closer scenes... in the Battle of the Five Armies we didn't even get to see the dwarves in the thick of it ). <--- OK I'm digressing here, sorry lol.

Give me battle scenes from the Hobbit or big Marvel movies over battle scenes from the OT any day. I like to watch movies in the cinema because they are able to project a scale beyond what a television can do. I love CGI big armies because they give you a sense of epic-ness to the fights and battles.

You have a preference for stories about conflict happening on a more personal level, I don't share your preferences. Sure, having good characters to follow during a fight is nice and all, but give me scenes of 100,000 men charging at each other from a bird's eye view any day. You like to follow battles narratives from the "face of battle", I like to watch battle narratives from the "bird's eye view".

It's an entirely different preference and perspective from you.

[Jub]

It might be fun to intergrate HEMA and Kendo into practice session, but that is inherently different from a staged performance. Even Japanese Samurai movies try and make their fights more stylish than actual kendo duels, because a fight meant for public display is different from a practice session.

It's the same thing in Wushu. An actual wushu combat, and how you train to take down your opponents with your wushu training is very different from putting up a wushu performance on stage.

Give me the fight that looks real over the fight where people are spinning and flipping while throwing attacks a foot away from their opponents any day. How can you watch a fight where none of the attacks looks like it could even come close to landing and feel any sense on tension at all?

I see the spectacle as the key driving force of the movies, with the story acting as the supplement to support those spectacular moments. Movies like Transformers don't have the best writing, but they are able to entertain a large segment of the audience because the spectacle by itself enough.

You must have a very narrow range of movies you enjoy then if you think that spectacle is more important than story, acting, pacing, etc.

Give me battle scenes from the Hobbit or big Marvel movies over battle scenes from the OT any day. I like to watch movies in the cinema because they are able to project a scale beyond what a television can do. I love CGI big armies because they give you a sense of epic-ness to the fights and battles.

You have a preference for stories about conflict happening on a more personal level, I don't share your preferences. Sure, having good characters to follow during a fight is nice and all, but give me scenes of 100,000 men charging at each other from a bird's eye view any day. You like to follow battles narratives from the "face of battle", I like to watch battle narratives from the "bird's eye view".

It's an entirely different preference and perspective from you.

You just like CGI explosion-fests because you have this ADHD need for constant action in movies. I'd bet that this is because for a long time that's the best local film studios could make so you grew up on that sort of frantic sloppy movie. Now you lack the attention span to watch something that doesn't have a fast cut or explosion every 20 seconds.

It's the same as people who grew up with very over-the-top slapstick comedy that grew out of an older French style. They got used to every joke ending in a big set piece and never learned to understand more subtle humor. They don't get dry British style humor and find even American comedy to be too low impact compared to what they grew up with while we look at what they enjoy and find it cheesy and gauche.

[The Romulan Republic]

You just like CGI explosion-fests because you have this ADHD need for constant action in movies. I'd bet that this is because for a long time that's the best local film studios could make so you grew up on that sort of frantic sloppy movie. Now you lack the attention span to watch something that doesn't have a fast cut or explosion every 20 seconds.

Wow, using a psychological condition as an insult and belittling someone's culture/nationality in one paragraph. Racism and abelism all in one!

Don't get me wrong though, its nice to know I'm not the only person on this board you're an unmitigated asshole to.

[Jub]

Wow, using a psychological condition as an insult and belittling someone's culture/nationality in one paragraph. Racism and abelism all in one!

You realize that pretty much all the terms I could have used have medical connotations right? Hyperactive is a medical term, short attention span is a symptom of multiple medical conditions, even idiot and moron used to have connotations related to developmental delay. I've seen you use those terms, so right back at you on using a psychological condition as an insult.

As for belittling his culture. China has a lot of great cultural achievements to be proud of, second rate low budget cinema is pretty far down the list. It's a case where they've had just as long as the US has to develop techniques and a pool of high-end talent and yet haven't. Should we celebrate the fact that a nation of billions is just now catching up to a nation of millions?

Don't get me wrong though, its nice to know I'm not the only person on this board you're an unmitigated asshole to.

Adds nothing to the thread. Brings up past discussions. Nice Vendetta post bitch. I won't report you though because I don't need the mods to fight my battles for me.

[ray245]

Give me the fight that looks real over the fight where people are spinning and flipping while throwing attacks a foot away from their opponents any day. How can you watch a fight where none of the attacks looks like it could even come close to landing and feel any sense on tension at all?

Perhaps that's called personal preferences and not having a huge personal ego where you need to belittle others for enjoying movies differently from you?

You must have a very narrow range of movies you enjoy then if you think that spectacle is more important than story, acting, pacing, etc.

You can't stop being passive aggressive can you? How do you know what's my range of movies? All I said is for SW movies, I enjoy them primarily for the spectacle because I see them as fun popcorn blockbusters. I don't go into a SW movie expecting it to be The Shape of Water.

You just like CGI explosion-fests because you have this ADHD need for constant action in movies. I'd bet that this is because for a long time that's the best local film studios could make so you grew up on that sort of frantic sloppy movie. Now you lack the attention span to watch something that doesn't have a fast cut or explosion every 20 seconds.

It's the same as people who grew up with very over-the-top slapstick comedy that grew out of an older French style. They got used to every joke ending in a big set piece and never learned to understand more subtle humor. They don't get dry British style humor and find even American comedy to be too low impact compared to what they grew up with while we look at what they enjoy and find it cheesy and gauche.

Yup, you're definetly being rather passive aggressive just because someone dare to have a different perspective and preference from you. Which country do you assume I'm from? And if so, how much of those movies have you actually seen?

Did I say all I can enjoy is CGI explosion fest? I see this as a case of cultural snobbery at work here. Because how dare people make movies that are different from my "anglo-American" culture!

[Jub]

Perhaps that's called personal preferences and not having a huge personal ego where you need to belittle others for enjoying movies differently from you?

I can enjoy a fast-paced movie but it can't simply be fast paced for the sake of being fast-paced. That rules out dreck like the Transformers movies but not something like the Matrix (or to a lesser degree the sequels).

You can't stop being passive aggressive can you? How do you know what's my range of movies? All I said is for SW movies, I enjoy them primarily for the spectacle because I see them as fun popcorn blockbusters. I don't go into a SW movie expecting it to be The Shape of Water.

I'm sure ANH would have been the hit it was if they made it just like the PT or, god forbid, the ST.

Yup, you're definetly being rather passive aggressive just because someone dare to have a different perspective and preference from you. Which country do you assume I'm from? And if so, how much of those movies have you actually seen?

Did I say all I can enjoy is CGI explosion fest? I see this as a case of cultural snobbery at work here. Because how dare people make movies that are different from my "anglo-American" culture!

I know you're Chinese as you've stated as much on this very message board, if I cared to look through your posting history I could probably find out where in China you're from/currently living in but I don't care enough to do so. As to how many of those movies I've seen, the answer is very few. I saw Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon when it first came out, but I was a kid. I've enjoyed a lot of Jackie Chan's older work but less for the fights and more for the personality of Jackie Chan which he does put into his fight scenes and stunt work. I recall enjoying Jet Li in The One but saw that years ago as well and couldn't tell you anything about it.

The fact is Chinese films, outside of what we call 'Kunk Fu' movies never really crossed over here. Part of it was that the budget and technical side of the films that did come over didn't match what Hollywood was doing, part of it is that North American audiences as a whole don't like reading subtitles or watching an, often poorly done, dub of an obviously foreign film. Another is that wuxia really does come off a hoaky to North American sensibilities as does something like a Bollywood style musically or a French style slapstick comedy.

For foreign works, I've enjoyed. There are quite a few actually. Let the Right One In is my all-time favorite horror movie. I rather enjoyed Memoirs of a Geisha when it came out. Bad Boy Bubby is a great Australian film as is The Castle. Bad Taste might count as Kiwi film. Drowning by Numbers is an enjoyable British-Dutch flick and The Devils is a purely British film that I also rather enjoyed. I can enjoy schlock to as long as it knows its schlock with nonsense like Tokyo Gore Police and Dead Snow making for an enjoyable double feature. I could also start listing anime but I feel that doesn't count because of its mainstream western popularity.

Just because I think that going full wuxia would ruin Star Wars and think your hyperactive taste in blockbusters is sophomoric doesn't mean I've no appreciation for films from outside my own cultural sphere.

[ray245]

I can enjoy a fast-paced movie but it can't simply be fast paced for the sake of being fast-paced. That rules out dreck like the Transformers movies but not something like the Matrix (or to a lesser degree the sequels).

That's your personal preference. There are clearly a considerable number of people that do enjoy the Transformers movies, not matter what the critics say about them. People have very different preferences for enjoying a movie, and I don't think anyone is a position to judge other's preferences.

I'm sure ANH would have been the hit it was if they made it just like the PT or, god forbid, the ST.

Look up some of the comments said about ANH back in the 70s. They talk a lot about the movies being fun. ANH stood out from the movies of their era, because it's much faster in terms of pacing and offers levity compared to many other movies of the era.

I know you're Chinese as you've stated as much on this very message board, if I cared to look through your posting history I could probably find out where in China you're from/currently living in but I don't care enough to do so.

It kinda feels racist if you assume the only Chinese there can be is people in China. I'm not from China.

As to how many of those movies I've seen, the answer is very few. I saw Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon when it first came out, but I was a kid. I've enjoyed a lot of Jackie Chan's older work but less for the fights and more for the personality of Jackie Chan which he does put into his fight scenes and stunt work. I recall enjoying Jet Li in The One but saw that years ago as well and couldn't tell you anything about it.

Then you are in no position to judge the taste and preferences of the Chinese audience without coming across as being racist.

The fact is Chinese films, outside of what we call 'Kunk Fu' movies never really crossed over here. Part of it was that the budget and technical side of the films that did come over didn't match what Hollywood was doing, part of it is that North American audiences as a whole don't like reading subtitles or watching an, often poorly done, dub of an obviously foreign film. Another is that wuxia really does come off a hoaky to North American sensibilities as does something like a Bollywood style musically or a French style slapstick comedy.

Hardly ANY foreign films crossed over to North America. There are plenty of foreign successful drama films that don't require a big budget. American audience just don't care about them.

My argument is that most generally speaking, North American audience movie sensibilities are very insular. Most countries in the world have less issues with watching movies in subtitles, or watching a dubbed version of it.

For foreign works, I've enjoyed. There are quite a few actually. Let the Right One In is my all-time favorite horror movie. I rather enjoyed Memoirs of a Geisha when it came out. Bad Boy Bubby is a great Australian film as is The Castle. Bad Taste might count as Kiwi film. Drowning by Numbers is an enjoyable British-Dutch flick and The Devils is a purely British film that I also rather enjoyed. I can enjoy schlock to as long as it knows its schlock with nonsense like Tokyo Gore Police and Dead Snow making for an enjoyable double feature. I could also start listing anime but I feel that doesn't count because of its mainstream western popularity.

Most of those films you are talking about are films made in the Anglo-speaking world.

Just because I think that going full wuxia would ruin Star Wars and think your hyperactive taste in blockbusters is sophomoric doesn't mean I've no appreciation for films from outside my own cultural sphere.

Based on what you have said, your cultural sphere is still utterly rooted in the anglo-speaking world. If you want to actually comment about the preferences of Chinese audience, then make sure you know what you are talking about first before making racist assumptions about an entire country's preferences for movies.

[Jub]

That's your personal preference. There are clearly a considerable number of people that do enjoy the Transformers movies, not matter what the critics say about them. People have very different preferences for enjoying a movie, and I don't think anyone is a position to judge other's preferences.

So everything should just pander to the lowest common denominator then? That's fine if you like soap operas, sitcoms, and reality TV but not so great if you miss the days when Discovery, History, and TLC were actually educational.

Look up some of the comments said about ANH back in the 70s. They talk a lot about the movies being fun. ANH stood out from the movies of their era, because it's much faster in terms of pacing and offers levity compared to many other movies of the era.

If you ramped it up to 11 they probably would have found it hard to follow. The same way many people already find fast cut poorly lit fights in modern movies (or this fan film) hard to follow.

It kinda feels racist if you assume the only Chinese there can be is people in China. I'm not from China.

Then you're not Chinese. That would be like if I called myself Dutch just because my grandparents are from the Netherlands, I'm Canadian because I was born in Canada. A person of Chinese descent born in Canada would likewise be Canadian.

Then you are in no position to judge the taste and preferences of the Chinese audience without coming across as being racist.

I judge my own nation's viewing habits equally harshly when shit like Transforms 11 and Pirates 36 are still making close to a billion dollars per film. China has only served to further prop up the mindless action genre and dumb down the overall market.

Hardly ANY foreign films crossed over to North America. There are plenty of foreign successful drama films that don't require a big budget. American audience just don't care about them.

We have more choice from our domestic markets than most other nations do. As such it makes it hard for something with a higher barrier to entry to make it over here. That's the reality of being in a privileged position, you can be picky about what you watch and still have a lot of quality films to enjoy.

My argument is that most generally speaking, North American audience movie sensibilities are very insular. Most countries in the world have less issues with watching movies in subtitles, or watching a dubbed version of it.

That's likely because their own nation's films don't match up very well budget and/or quality wise to what Hollywood produces. They have an incentive to watch another nation's films because their own nation simply doesn't produce the volume and quality of films needed to satisfy their audience.

Most of those films you are talking about are films made in the Anglo-speaking world.

Half the films listed are either wholly or partly produced in non-English speaking countries or do Sweden, Japan, the Netherlands, and Norway suddenly count as Anglo-speaking nations now?

Based on what you have said, your cultural sphere is still utterly rooted in the anglo-speaking world. If you want to actually comment about the preferences of Chinese audience, then make sure you know what you are talking about first before making racist assumptions about an entire country's preferences for movies.

I can look up box office trends for China as easily as I can for North America. I know that Chinese audiences go out for big dumb action flicks from major Hollywood studios because the ticket sales tell me so. I can, for example, tell you that a mess of a movie in Warcraft did better in China than it did over here. I don't need to know why these people enjoy shitty movies to know that they do indeed seem to enjoy shitty movies.

[ray245]

So everything should just pander to the lowest common denominator then? That's fine if you like soap operas, sitcoms, and reality TV but not so great if you miss the days when Discovery, History, and TLC were actually educational.

Who gets to decide what is the lowest denominator? People see movies for different reasons. This reeks of elitism to me.

If you ramped it up to 11 they probably would have found it hard to follow. The same way many people already find fast cut poorly lit fights in modern movies (or this fan film) hard to follow.

And yet this fanfilm has received millions of views and a number of media outlets are gushing about this fight. So clearly a number of people do enjoy this kind of fights.

Then you're not Chinese. That would be like if I called myself Dutch just because my grandparents are from the Netherlands, I'm Canadian because I was born in Canada. A person of Chinese descent born in Canada would likewise be Canadian.

You do know there are Chinese-majority countries outside of China? And it does say Chinese on my ID card?

I judge my own nation's viewing habits equally harshly when shit like Transforms 11 and Pirates 36 are still making close to a billion dollars per film. China has only served to further prop up the mindless action genre and dumb down the overall market.

You judge people for being different from you. That's all you are doing.

We have more choice from our domestic markets than most other nations do. As such it makes it hard for something with a higher barrier to entry to make it over here. That's the reality of being in a privileged position, you can be picky about what you watch and still have a lot of quality films to enjoy.

And what makes you think other countries don't have a wide selection of choice?

That's likely because their own nation's films don't match up very well budget and/or quality wise to what Hollywood produces. They have an incentive to watch another nation's films because their own nation simply doesn't produce the volume and quality of films needed to satisfy their audience.

And you know this because you've seen a tons of foreign movies beyond a select few from Anglo-sphere, and some anime?

Half the films listed are either wholly or partly produced in non-English speaking countries or do Sweden, Japan, the Netherlands, and Norway suddenly count as Anglo-speaking nations now?

British, Australia and New Zealand aren't part of the Anglo-speaking world?

I can look up box office trends for China as easily as I can for North America. I know that Chinese audiences go out for big dumb action flicks from major Hollywood studios because the ticket sales tell me so. I can, for example, tell you that a mess of a movie in Warcraft did better in China than it did over here. I don't need to know why these people enjoy shitty movies to know that they do indeed seem to enjoy shitty movies.

Chinese audience go for Hollywood action flicks because they are action filcks. Just because they can spend a ton of money on big action filcks does not stop them from spending a ton of money on domestic drama about more serious topic. Have you seen "Dying To Survive"? And it's not like American audiences shy away from "big dumb action flicks" either. Transformers did made a ton of money in the US. Batman V Superman made a ton of money.

So I'm sorry, I still think you are coming off as being rather racist to me.

[ray245]

Chinese is also an ethnicity, by the way. Saying I'm not Chinese is a mark of someone being quite racist imo.

It's the same as a white guy telling a black person he's not black.

[Jub]

Who gets to decide what is the lowest denominator? People see movies for different reasons. This reeks of elitism to me.

You could try to look at things based on IQ, education level, socio-economic status, and determine things that way or we could look at trends in film and music towards very specific motifs and go from there. Either way, the people that go and see Transformers or a Happy Madison flick but don't go to see something even slightly more challenging such as the Martian would form that lowest baseline.

And yet this fanfilm has received millions of views and a number of media outlets are gushing about this fight. So clearly a number of people do enjoy this kind of fights.

You mean this fan film screened in 2019 tested better now than it would have in 1977, color me unsurprised. We're more used to a faster style of cinema these days than they were in 1977. If you tried to go full out action in 1977 people probably wouldn't have been able to follow the editing because there hadn't been a gradual quickening of pace to help them acclimate. You yourself said that Star Wars was already considered fast paced for the time, how much faster do you think a late 70's audience would have been able to tolerate?

You do know there are Chinese-majority countries outside of China? And it does say Chinese on my ID card?

Your talking ethnicity and I'm talking nationality. Nice that you ignored my point about not claiming to be Dutch in spite of my ancestry though, it really makes it clear that you're not reading what I'm writing.

You judge people for being different from you. That's all you are doing.

Yes, we all do this. You're judging me for my views right now and aren't wrong for doing so any more than I'm wrong for making my own judgments. Isn't it funny how opinions work?

And what makes you think other countries don't have a wide selection of choice?

Do you really want me to list the annual movie output of every nation compared to the output of just Hollywood in the US or are you being pedantic?

And you know this because you've seen a tons of foreign movies beyond a select few from Anglo-sphere, and some anime?

I'm not going to list every movie I've ever watched to prove how worldly I am to some hyperactive insecure idiot on a message board.

British, Australia and New Zealand aren't part of the Anglo-speaking world?

You said more than half of my list was Anglo-sphere, I listed 9 example movies of which 5 of them are either wholly or partially from non-English speaking production teams. Or were you too lazy to look up where the movies I didn't list a nationality for came from?

Chinese audience go for Hollywood action flicks because they are action filcks. Just because they can spend a ton of money on big action filcks does not stop them from spending a ton of money on domestic drama about more serious topic. Have you seen "Dying To Survive"? And it's not like American audiences shy away from "big dumb action flicks" either. Transformers did made a ton of money in the US. Batman V Superman made a ton of money.

So I'm sorry, I still think you are coming off as being rather racist to me.

I've said that I judge North American audiences equally harshly for their poor entertainment choices Ray. Quit trying to carebear things so that everybody supports everybody else here. It was annoying when you tried to do it with board rules back in the day and is equally annoying now.

Chinese is also an ethnicity, by the way. Saying I'm not Chinese is a mark of someone being quite racist imo.

It's the same as a white guy telling a black person he's not black.

I'm well aware of that and addressed it when I brought up the point about me being a Canadian rather than claiming to be Dutch in spite of that being my line of descent. I guess you're just too insecure to let go of your ethnicity and integrate with the nation you live in or you'd be able to do the same.

[ray245]

It's really easy for a white guy in a white majoirty country to say to others you need to integrate better.

At this point, you're just digging a hole for yourself.

[Jub]

It's really easy for a white guy in a white majoirty country to say to others you need to integrate better.

At this point, you're just digging a hole for yourself.

Because being an insular minority group is sooo healthy for all involved, right? Obviously, you weren't born in or aren't currently living in China for a reason. Clearly, China wasn't working for your parents, grandparents, or yourself and that's caused you to live outside of China. So rather than claiming to be Chinese, when you're actually from another country why not claim your actual nationality and bring up your Chinese ancestry when relevant?

My Grandparents left the Netherlands and moved to western Canada for a reason. That reason was the economic depression in post-WWII Europe and cheap farmland being offered in Canada. They weren't born here and are certainly Dutch, but my parents are Canadians and I'm a Canadian as well. Tell me what I would gain by insisting that I'm Dutch by ethnicity and answering that I'm Dutch in a place where people would be expecting to hear that I'm Canadian?