Oh shit - Now it's M1s too

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-31 07:17pm

Warspite wrote:

(Anyone here knows the story of how the Soviet Union got hold of AIM9(A? B?) Sidewinders? Several paralels apply.)

They got an AIM-9B, I belive the A model was only used for testing.

1958, the US supplied the missile and launchers to Taiwan for its F-86's. They downed around twenty MiG-17's over the Taiwan straights. However one very lucky MiG-17 was directly hit but the missile was a dud and lodged inside the aircraft. The MiG returned to base and the intact missile was removed and handed over to the Soviets.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-03-31 07:22pm

That copied AIM-2B became the Soviet K-13 (they later made various improvements to it).

GlobalSecurity has a good article on it.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » 2003-03-31 07:34pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:They also showed people climbing on it, and the aircraft changed over time, the Hellfire disappeared for example.

Don't you realise that those shots were taken over time?

The Iraqis OBVIOUSLY took off the Hellfire missiles, the Americans also destroyed it later, but not after giving the Iraqis a while to examine it.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-03-31 07:41pm

Warspite wrote:Really? Anyway, it's irrelevant, since back-engineering, or discovering the secrets one of those beasts will take at least a few months, and I'm sure the US military won't let that happen.

(Anyone here knows the story of how the Soviet Union got hold of AIM9(A? B?) Sidewinders? Several paralels apply.)

An AIM-9B was fired at a Chineese MiG (17 I believe) and didn't detonate.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-31 07:46pm

Ted wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:They also showed people climbing on it, and the aircraft changed over time, the Hellfire disappeared for example.
Don't you realise that those shots were taken over time?

The Iraqis OBVIOUSLY took off the Hellfire missiles, the Americans also destroyed it later, but not after giving the Iraqis a while to examine it.

NO FUCKING SHIT MORON! That's why I believed the Apache capture from the start, because it wasn't a static image and it had people on it, which is what I'd want to see on the M1 before I believed that as well. Do you see me doubting that aircrafts capture in that post? I sure don't.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-04-01 03:33am

Quite frankly, I find these denials, well, absurd. I don't care that they were abandoned (sorry, but they were, and noone can deny that, period), but with the amount of "oooh I don't know" and bodgy sounding excuses for it (oh well, there's "no frame of reference for the pictures"- pray tell how the fuck else does Iraqi TV get them on camera from so many angles- do they have covert cameramen reporting from behind Coalition lines now?) god, people are acting this like the Federation just captured the Executor.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-04-01 03:36am

Warspite wrote:Really? Anyway, it's irrelevant, since back-engineering, or discovering the secrets one of those beasts will take at least a few months, and I'm sure the US military won't let that happen.

(Anyone here knows the story of how the Soviet Union got hold of AIM9(A? B?) Sidewinders? Several paralels apply.)

The Iraqis don't have what it takes to get any secrets from the M1, IMO, not without years and years.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2003-04-01 04:23am

Vympel

Quite frankly, I find these denials, well, absurd.

So do I. They start denying the picture and absolutely ignoring that a video is not a flash-blink moment, and I doubt the Iraqis filmed an active M1 staying in front of it with all the tank's crew still inside and ready for battle.

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2003-04-01 05:04am

Vympel wrote:The Iraqis don't have what it takes to get any secrets from the M1, IMO, not without years and years.

That's my whole point. Discovering its secrets will take time, time enough for the US to prevent any sort of research, smuggling, or plain old turning around the turret and fire at the Coalition.
Besides, since the next iteration (M1A2) has been around for years, that tank is basically old news.

(Regarding the AIM-9, there's still an even crazier story, it seems another Sidewinder went through East Germany on the back of a Volkswagen, with its nosecone sticking out of the window, and a sheet covering it. But that's probably urban myth,)

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-04-01 05:11am

Warspite wrote:
That's my whole point. Discovering its secrets will take time, time enough for the US to prevent any sort of research, smuggling, or plain old turning around the turret and fire at the Coalition.

Yeah-

Those tanks have been stripped already- I'm sure the thermal imagers have been carted off somewhere, for example, though what the Iraqis wanted with the machine guns, I don't know.

Besides, since the next iteration (M1A2) has been around for years, that tank is basically old news.

I wouldn't go that far. Those were either M1A1s or M1A1HAs, which are still one of the meanest tanks in the world- their thermal imagers would be great fun, for example, as would the entire fire control system, even if it was just out of curiosity for other countries that already have the technology.

(Regarding the AIM-9, there's still an even crazier story, it seems another Sidewinder went through East Germany on the back of a Volkswagen, with its nosecone sticking out of the window, and a sheet covering it. But that's probably urban myth,)

Lol. Never heard that one- just the unexploded AIM-9B story.

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2003-04-01 05:40am

Vympel wrote:
(Regarding the AIM-9, there's still an even crazier story, it seems another Sidewinder went through East Germany on the back of a Volkswagen, with its nosecone sticking out of the window, and a sheet covering it. But that's probably urban myth,)
Lol. Never heard that one- just the unexploded AIM-9B story.

Yeah, good old Cold War spy stories, hard to prove their veracity, but hard to prove they didn't happen either...

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-04-01 01:16pm

Warspite wrote:
Vympel wrote:
(Regarding the AIM-9, there's still an even crazier story, it seems another Sidewinder went through East Germany on the back of a Volkswagen, with its nosecone sticking out of the window, and a sheet covering it. But that's probably urban myth,)
Lol. Never heard that one- just the unexploded AIM-9B story.
Yeah, good old Cold War spy stories, hard to prove their veracity, but hard to prove they didn't happen either...

I’ve heard that one, though its no too common. Another good story involved an F-4 in Vietnam. It flew into a mountainside at 500 knots with a full bomb and fuel load. Soviet specialists however managed to reassemble the radar from parts they scoped up and wrote a book on it, though they could never quite get it working.

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2003-04-01 03:59pm

Sea Skimmer wrote: I’ve heard that one, though its no too common. Another good story involved an F-4 in Vietnam. It flew into a mountainside at 500 knots with a full bomb and fuel load. Soviet specialists however managed to reassemble the radar from parts they scoped up and wrote a book on it, though they could never quite get it working.

LOL
That's a good one I hadn't heard! It must have beeen quite a remarkable job.