The Battle of Bilbringi

[KraytKing]

My recollection for the ending was that the two fleets were at rough parity at the time of the retreat, with the NR fleeting having the tactical momentum and superior positioning due to the unexpected attack on the shipyards. This suggests that either the Atlas entry for the number of heavy combatants was wrong, or perhaps that the New Republic fleet made up for the deficiency in Star Destroyer equivalents with having a much more robust compliment of smaller craft (as seems to be traditional in Rebel Alliance/New Republic formations compared to the Destroyer-heavy Imperials. A rough parity in fleet strength also befits Thrawn's style, which tended towards economy of force and counting his own presence at the scene as a significant force multiplier when making assessments of relative combat power.

I also think I recall that it was mentioned in a later book that the New Republic showed up in much greater than expected strength at Bilbringi, something Thrawn was capable of handling, but would have presented difficulties to a lesser commander.

A key point in the books is that the attack WAS expected. The New Republic tried to make him think Tangrene was the objective, but it is described in several areas that Thrawn knew the attack was coming at Bilbringi and Pellaeon thought otherwise, but was wrong. The attack was totally predicted. What's more, it wasn't simply a battle Thrawn wanted to win, it was one he wanted to crush. He knew it was the last hope of the New Republic. If it was perceived to have barely failed, or have failed through accident of the Empire, then it might have made room for another hope. But if Thrawn proved his total dominance and annihilated the New Republic fleet to the last man with only token losses, it would have been a propaganda field day. This is supported by the numbers given in Warfare, which if memory serves are the same as the numbers given in Last Command.

[The Romulan Republic]

IIRC, Thrawn had three goals for the battle:

1. Obliterate a major contingent of the NR fleet.

2. Maintain the asteroid blockade of Coruscant by keeping them from getting a CGT.

3. Sow political discord in the leadership by allowing Ackbar to escape, casting further suspicion on his leadership.

[KraytKing]

The third is far more convincing if Ackbar is the only one to escape out of what was obviously a massacre of the highest order.

[Coop D'etat]

My recollection for the ending was that the two fleets were at rough parity at the time of the retreat, with the NR fleeting having the tactical momentum and superior positioning due to the unexpected attack on the shipyards. This suggests that either the Atlas entry for the number of heavy combatants was wrong, or perhaps that the New Republic fleet made up for the deficiency in Star Destroyer equivalents with having a much more robust compliment of smaller craft (as seems to be traditional in Rebel Alliance/New Republic formations compared to the Destroyer-heavy Imperials. A rough parity in fleet strength also befits Thrawn's style, which tended towards economy of force and counting his own presence at the scene as a significant force multiplier when making assessments of relative combat power.

I also think I recall that it was mentioned in a later book that the New Republic showed up in much greater than expected strength at Bilbringi, something Thrawn was capable of handling, but would have presented difficulties to a lesser commander.

A key point in the books is that the attack WAS expected. The New Republic tried to make him think Tangrene was the objective, but it is described in several areas that Thrawn knew the attack was coming at Bilbringi and Pellaeon thought otherwise, but was wrong. The attack was totally predicted. What's more, it wasn't simply a battle Thrawn wanted to win, it was one he wanted to crush. He knew it was the last hope of the New Republic. If it was perceived to have barely failed, or have failed through accident of the Empire, then it might have made room for another hope. But if Thrawn proved his total dominance and annihilated the New Republic fleet to the last man with only token losses, it would have been a propaganda field day. This is supported by the numbers given in Warfare, which if memory serves are the same as the numbers given in Last Command.

The latter comment about NR showing up in unexpected strength wasn't that the attack itself was unexpected, but that they brought a bigger force to the party than what the Imperials were expecting to deal with, hence their margin for victory being tighter than they'd like.

Also, Thrawn seems to assess numbers like a competent RTS player against a computer AI, expecting from experience that being equal strength to slightly outnumbered will result in crushing victories by virtue of having him in command. Hence he tended to favour economy of force over overwhelming strength. It also was likely part of Thrawn's political strategy to consistently deliver huge victories with limited resources to enhance his mystique and retain what hold he had over the Imperial grandees who saw him as an outsider.

I'm also pretty sure Last Command didn't give much details on numbers, particularly on the NR side, and the only clear indication of relative strength was towards the end, when the assessment was the fleets were at par in fighting strength with the NR side having the initiative. Under the circumstances, it doesn't make much sense for the NR to start out with a big disadvantage in fighting strength.

[Solauren]

No numbers or assetments were ever given in the novels. Just that Thrawn sounded 'grim', and sections of one of the Golan's were out, and rebel starfighters were lose in the shipyards.

That is NOT a balanced even fight. The Smugglers presence within the shipyard turned the tide of the ambush.

Smuggler ships were NOT lightly armed. They were meant to escape blockades. Adding in 'nearly every ship in Karrade's smuggler alliance' meant there was a lot of unexpected firepower present.

[The Romulan Republic]

IIRC, assault frigates were slipping by the Golan into the yards by the time Thrawn went down.

As to the smuggler fleet, given that multiple individual members could field fleets of dozens, that could easily have been over a hundred gunship/corvette/light frigate level craft suddenly hitting them behind the front lines.

[KraytKing]

You're correct, no numbers are given. But from the start, it is known that two Sector Fleets will be present. Thrawn adn Pellaeon both mention it several times. At no point during the battle does either or anyone else express any surprise at the number of Rebel ships, and given how often Pellaeon comments mentally on the situation, this seems to suggest that the Rebel fleet is just as expected.

[Coop D'etat]

You're correct, no numbers are given. But from the start, it is known that two Sector Fleets will be present. Thrawn adn Pellaeon both mention it several times. At no point during the battle does either or anyone else express any surprise at the number of Rebel ships, and given how often Pellaeon comments mentally on the situation, this seems to suggest that the Rebel fleet is just as expected.

Fair enough, I'm not sure on the comment I think I remember reading years ago. My best recollection was that it was a Pellaeon quote from a later novel, so if it does exist, it can also be chalked up to him misremembering in a biased fashion to minimize his own culpability for the debacle.



I do maintain that it's within character for Thrawn to show up to a fight with only as much force as he thinks he needs, rather than overwhelming numbers.

[FaxModem1]

I'm fine with large, well armed pirate fleets in the years following Endor, but as you said, no capital ships were mentioned. Furthermore, a smuggler doesn't exactly want a big, ostentatious Star Destroyer when they sneak through customs. So they have some very well-armed freighters that look unarmed, which limits the amount of weaponry they can actually carry. I can't imagine they would make a difference in a battle of three dozen Star Destroyers, not when one side is already outnumbered two to one.

Karrde's ship had like three or four turbolasers. Enough to match a single battery of the sixty mounted on an Imperial I, let alone the Imperial IIs or Golan IIs he faced at Bilbringi.

For all their firepower, it should be noted that Stardestroyers are meant to fire weapons in broadsides or forward. This leaves them with a hell of an opening in their engines, and Thrawn was maneuvering his fleet to deal with the Rebels/New Republic. That can leave you open to surprise attack.

In a critical moment, a few ships being disabled by having a surprise flotilla of gunrunners and smugglers can make all the difference.

As I said already, this acknowledges that his fleet was optimized for the ambush he had set up. It should not have failed so miserably. The New Republic should have been losing ships left and right when the smugglers arrived, and that would have been sufficient to stop the bleeding and maybe allow for an attack on the Interdictor screen. If that fails, three Star Destroyers maneuver around, paste the smugglers, and the other twenty or so keep their forward arcs, their most powerful, trained on the englobed Rebel cruisers. The ambush was using Imperial strengths perfectly, and somehow failed.

As we saw with the Millenium Falcon, Star Destroyers are bad at taking on small maneuverable targets, so much so that they can nearly collide with each if they're not careful. And that's in a straight up chase, not in the midst of dealing with an entire fleet firing on them.

[KraytKing]

For all their firepower, it should be noted that Stardestroyers are meant to fire weapons in broadsides or forward. This leaves them with a hell of an opening in their engines, and Thrawn was maneuvering his fleet to deal with the Rebels/New Republic. That can leave you open to surprise attack.

In a critical moment, a few ships being disabled by having a surprise flotilla of gunrunners and smugglers can make all the difference.

As I said already, this acknowledges that his fleet was optimized for the ambush he had set up. It should not have failed so miserably. The New Republic should have been losing ships left and right when the smugglers arrived, and that would have been sufficient to stop the bleeding and maybe allow for an attack on the Interdictor screen. If that fails, three Star Destroyers maneuver around, paste the smugglers, and the other twenty or so keep their forward arcs, their most powerful, trained on the englobed Rebel cruisers. The ambush was using Imperial strengths perfectly, and somehow failed.

As we saw with the Millenium Falcon, Star Destroyers are bad at taking on small maneuverable targets, so much so that they can nearly collide with each if they're not careful. And that's in a straight up chase, not in the midst of dealing with an entire fleet firing on them.

My point is that while the smugglers may be trouble, the Rebel fleet in front of them is exactly what they're designed to kill. The New Republic should have been decimated at the least by the time the smugglers engaged.

[FaxModem1]

As I said already, this acknowledges that his fleet was optimized for the ambush he had set up. It should not have failed so miserably. The New Republic should have been losing ships left and right when the smugglers arrived, and that would have been sufficient to stop the bleeding and maybe allow for an attack on the Interdictor screen. If that fails, three Star Destroyers maneuver around, paste the smugglers, and the other twenty or so keep their forward arcs, their most powerful, trained on the englobed Rebel cruisers. The ambush was using Imperial strengths perfectly, and somehow failed.

As we saw with the Millenium Falcon, Star Destroyers are bad at taking on small maneuverable targets, so much so that they can nearly collide with each if they're not careful. And that's in a straight up chase, not in the midst of dealing with an entire fleet firing on them.

My point is that while the smugglers may be trouble, the Rebel fleet in front of them is exactly what they're designed to kill. The New Republic should have been decimated at the least by the time the smugglers engaged.

Then you've gone from a guaranteed broadsides enclosure of the enemy force to finding yourself fighting an enemy on both sides, with whomever you pay attention to giving an advantage to whoever you're not, or if you split the difference evenly, making your outgoing firepower halved in comparison to both sides shooting their total firepower at you.

This was also an Empire that was having problems making ships, remember? And had to rely on grabbing them from the New Republic. Thrawn's own ship was full of conscripts, after all.

[Patroklos]

For all their firepower, it should be noted that Stardestroyers are meant to fire weapons in broadsides or forward. This leaves them with a hell of an opening in their engines, and Thrawn was maneuvering his fleet to deal with the Rebels/New Republic. That can leave you open to surprise attack.

In a critical moment, a few ships being disabled by having a surprise flotilla of gunrunners and smugglers can make all the difference.

As I said already, this acknowledges that his fleet was optimized for the ambush he had set up. It should not have failed so miserably. The New Republic should have been losing ships left and right when the smugglers arrived, and that would have been sufficient to stop the bleeding and maybe allow for an attack on the Interdictor screen. If that fails, three Star Destroyers maneuver around, paste the smugglers, and the other twenty or so keep their forward arcs, their most powerful, trained on the englobed Rebel cruisers. The ambush was using Imperial strengths perfectly, and somehow failed.

As we saw with the Millenium Falcon, Star Destroyers are bad at taking on small maneuverable targets, so much so that they can nearly collide with each if they're not careful. And that's in a straight up chase, not in the midst of dealing with an entire fleet firing on them.

Bad example. They were trying to capture the MC, not destroy it. They landed plenty of hits onto the MC.

[FaxModem1]

As I said already, this acknowledges that his fleet was optimized for the ambush he had set up. It should not have failed so miserably. The New Republic should have been losing ships left and right when the smugglers arrived, and that would have been sufficient to stop the bleeding and maybe allow for an attack on the Interdictor screen. If that fails, three Star Destroyers maneuver around, paste the smugglers, and the other twenty or so keep their forward arcs, their most powerful, trained on the englobed Rebel cruisers. The ambush was using Imperial strengths perfectly, and somehow failed.

As we saw with the Millenium Falcon, Star Destroyers are bad at taking on small maneuverable targets, so much so that they can nearly collide with each if they're not careful. And that's in a straight up chase, not in the midst of dealing with an entire fleet firing on them.

Bad example. They were trying to capture the MC, not destroy it. They landed plenty of hits onto the MC.

Why not use ion cannon shots? Or do Star Destoyers not have those? Or a tractor beam? Either way, the Millenium Falcon did enough to avoid being hit, and only seemed to be hit by the TIE fighter escort, not the Millenium Falcon turbolasers.

[Gandalf]

This is a complete guess, but assuming SDs have ion cannons, maybe they're not considered safe to use when there's a chance of hitting another Imperial ship, but a turbolaser hit is considered less of an issue?

[Imperial528]

It's also possible that the ion cannons mounted on an ISD are meant for engaging ships of similar size- they may as well be lethal weaponry against a ship the size of the Falcon, while weapons meant for engaging fighters would more reliably damage to the point of disabling instead of outright destroying the target.

[Patroklos]

As we saw with the Millenium Falcon, Star Destroyers are bad at taking on small maneuverable targets, so much so that they can nearly collide with each if they're not careful. And that's in a straight up chase, not in the midst of dealing with an entire fleet firing on them.

Bad example. They were trying to capture the MC, not destroy it. They landed plenty of hits onto the MC.

Why not use ion cannon shots? Or do Star Destoyers not have those? Or a tractor beam? Either way, the Millenium Falcon did enough to avoid being hit, and only seemed to be hit by the TIE fighter escort, not the Millenium Falcon turbolasers.

ISDs do have Ion canons but that was an invention of the EU. As far as I know the only ion canon usage seen on screen was the planetary one on Hoth. Same goes with tractor beams, they existed only on the DS, they are mentioned nowhere else until the EU materials. Continuity wise that is unsatisfying of course, but it explains the choices of the writers and other movie makers.

I suggest you watch ESB again. Specifically when Avenger finds the MC and then loses here there are no TIEs present. Plenty of hits on the MC.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

It's also possible that the ion cannons mounted on an ISD are meant for engaging ships of similar size- they may as well be lethal weaponry against a ship the size of the Falcon, while weapons meant for engaging fighters would more reliably damage to the point of disabling instead of outright destroying the target.

I'd say that's pretty much it.

The idea that Ion Cannons shut down targets without damaging them strikes me as a brain bug; albeit one that found its way into canon to some extent. The problem is that it doesn't fit the ways in which they are (or are not) used. Aside from the example of the Millenium Falcon in TESB, there's also the Tantive IV in ANH. Both cases would have benefitted from a safe shut-down weapon, but turbolasers were used in both cases.

My preferred explanation is that the Ion Cannon is a straight-up particle weapon (visible shots aside), which means it damages as much by irradiation as by catastrophic superheating (aka, make it go boom). Atomic Rockets (Project Rho) actually cites particle weapons as a convenient reason for a sci-fi universe to have human-crewed starships and not rely on drones. Particle weapons are disproportionately dangerous to technology, and can damage it via irradiation at longer ranges than they can inflict conventional damage.

This would explain the Hoth example. The Hoth Ion Cannon was firing at its extreme range - tens or hundreds of thousands of kilometres; pretty long by SW standards - and was only able to mess with the ISD Tyrant's shields and and electronics; whereas at closer ranges it might have inflicted visible damage. The same can be argued for the Malevolence's superheavy ion cannons. It also works for the Millenium Falcon and Tantive IV examples, for the reason Imperial528 stated; their relative size makes them more likely to blow up if hit by a SD-grade Ion Cannon, especially at such short ranges.

[RogueIce]

ISDs do have Ion canons but that was an invention of the EU. As far as I know the only ion canon usage seen on screen was the planetary one on Hoth. Same goes with tractor beams, they existed only on the DS, they are mentioned nowhere else until the EU materials. Continuity wise that is unsatisfying of course, but it explains the choices of the writers and other movie makers.

I mean, we are discussing a battle that existed only in that same EU, so...

As for tractor beams, Admiral Piett does order it readied (04:15) in this segment from ESB so they definitely existed outside the Death Star, even by the movies. I'd say they're also implied on ISDs, as "clanking" noises are heard on the Tantive IV before the Devastator actually 'docks' with it. (YouTube clip [03:13])

It's also possible that the ion cannons mounted on an ISD are meant for engaging ships of similar size- they may as well be lethal weaponry against a ship the size of the Falcon, while weapons meant for engaging fighters would more reliably damage to the point of disabling instead of outright destroying the target.

I'd say that's pretty much it.

The idea that Ion Cannons shut down targets without damaging them strikes me as a brain bug; albeit one that found its way into canon to some extent. The problem is that it doesn't fit the ways in which they are (or are not) used. Aside from the example of the Millenium Falcon in TESB, there's also the Tantive IV in ANH. Both cases would have benefitted from a safe shut-down weapon, but turbolasers were used in both cases.

My preferred explanation is that the Ion Cannon is a straight-up particle weapon (visible shots aside), which means it damages as much by irradiation as by catastrophic superheating (aka, make it go boom). Atomic Rockets (Project Rho) actually cites particle weapons as a convenient reason for a sci-fi universe to have human-crewed starships and not rely on drones. Particle weapons are disproportionately dangerous to technology, and can damage it via irradiation at longer ranges than they can inflict conventional damage.

This would explain the Hoth example. The Hoth Ion Cannon was firing at its extreme range - tens or hundreds of thousands of kilometres; pretty long by SW standards - and was only able to mess with the ISD Tyrant's shields and and electronics; whereas at closer ranges it might have inflicted visible damage. The same can be argued for the Malevolence's superheavy ion cannons. It also works for the Millenium Falcon and Tantive IV examples, for the reason Imperial528 stated; their relative size makes them more likely to blow up if hit by a SD-grade Ion Cannon, especially at such short ranges.

This is supported by the EU as well: during the Battle of Blackmoon in the first X-Wing novel, a planetary ion cannon engaging the Rebel ISD II Emancipator completely vaporizes an X-wing unlucky enough to be the path of one of its blasts. As for the Devastator not using them against Princess Leia's corvette, IIRC the ISD's ion cannons are on the dorsal surface, while the Tantive IV manages to stay on the ventral side of the Destroyer during the chase. A bit of a design flaw, I suppose, but it works as an ad hoc explanation.

[Lonestar]

ISDs do have Ion canons but that was an invention of the EU. As far as I know the only ion canon usage seen on screen was the planetary one on Hoth. Same goes with tractor beams, they existed only on the DS, they are mentioned nowhere else until the EU materials. Continuity wise that is unsatisfying of course, but it explains the choices of the writers and other movie makers.

I suggest you watch ESB again. Specifically when Avenger finds the MC and then loses here there are no TIEs present. Plenty of hits on the MC.

R1 had Ion cannons used against ISDs in orbit of Scarif. While one of 'em was unable to manuever the RA used hammerhead corvettes to shove it into the other.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Technically those were ion torpedoes rather than ship-mounted guns.

[Crazedwraith]

ISDs do have Ion canons but that was an invention of the EU. As far as I know the only ion canon usage seen on screen was the planetary one on Hoth. Same goes with tractor beams, they existed only on the DS, they are mentioned nowhere else until the EU materials. Continuity wise that is unsatisfying of course, but it explains the choices of the writers and other movie makers.

I suggest you watch ESB again. Specifically when Avenger finds the MC and then loses here there are no TIEs present. Plenty of hits on the MC.

R1 had Ion cannons used against ISDs in orbit of Scarif. While one of 'em was unable to manuever the RA used hammerhead corvettes to shove it into the other.

Those were Ion Bombs iirc, dropped by Y-Wings.

[Lonestar]

So projectile ion weapons are usuable but not shipmounted ion cannons?

c'mon.

[Gandalf]

Why wouldn't some smugglers want a Star Destroyer? It's a hell of a way to assert a place in a black economy.

As it was pointed out before a star destroyer is one hells of attention grabber and a smart smuggler plans for the eventually that things will go back to a reasonble "normal" state of affairs, during which a major warship like an ISD would be a liability. A smuggler would want a ship that you could potentially park at any non-resistricted starport in the galaxy and not drawn attention.

Or you just park it above a planet somewhere for a sweet mobile base of operations, outside of the Republic/Empire/other. Space police coming? Hightail it. Rival space gang coming? Then they'll need a lot of firepower, or you can hightail it. Meanwhile, assuming that the ISD is owned/operated by a more or less rational space gang, you can lease space within, and become an economic hub because the Pirate Star Destroyer is a safe place to do business in a lawless bit of the galaxy.

Taking it to a fight would be silly. But in a galaxy with a master race of space wizards running things, who knows?

[Batman]

Isn't the 'economic hub' thing pretty much exactly what Booster Terrik did with the 'Errant Venture'?

[Gandalf]

I honestly couldn't tell you. Most of my knowledge of the old EU comes from discussions online and the few books I read.