What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

[FaxModem1]

Here's the problem with that. Either, A. Luke decided to check up on his nephew and didnt just contemplate it in his mind, but did the physical action of pulling out his lightsaber, decided killing his nephew in his sleep was his best plan of action, waking up his nephew, or B. he sensed the darkness before then, and decided to go to Ben's hut to murder him, which means he straight up decided to murder him, with premeditated thought behind it. This is, as pointed out earlier in the thread, akin to a cop not liking what he sees in his nephew's diary after the kid makes some comments at training, and without talking to him about it, decides to kill him in his sleep, draws out his pistol, and chambers a round, pointing it at the kid.

Again, the idea that Luke went to the hut intending in advance to kill Ben is 100% completely baseless. It has not a single scrap of canon evidence for it, and quite a bit against it. Pretending its an either/or, as though either option is equally credible or has some basis, when you have provided zero evidence for that, is disingenuous, and I think you know it.

I've pointed out how baseless this is, repeatedly and in detail. I have asked for evidence, repeatedly. You have kept evading that and just saying "well maybe Luke planned to preemptively murder him". Yeah, and maybe the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is sitting in my backyard wearing a tutu, but I have absolutely no evidence of that fact, and if I advanced it as a serious argument, I'd rightly be thought a lunatic. If you persist in pursuing this completely baseless argument despite my having demonstrated repeatedly that it is baseless, and given that I do not believe that you are an imbecile, I can regretfully only conclude that you are being dishonest.

I don't think Luke was seriously planning it out, but it says bad things about Luke that he pulled his lightsaber out at all. That's my hang up.

That's a few steps beyond impulsive. The fact that you and TRR are ignoring how out of character this is for Luke shows how out of step you are. In real life, I'm sure someone has cut you off in traffic, or shoved you, maybe even thrown a punch. Do you immediately go for your Glock? Or do you try and act as an adult?

No, of course not, and again, no one is saying Luke was right, but the situations are not remotely comparable. I am not a psychic capable of reading minds and seeing the future, and some asshole throwing a punch does not have the power to throw galactic civilization into chaos, which a high-end Force user potentially does.

See, the situations are comparable, because Jedi don't try violence unless it's the only action available. There's a reason they were known as diplomats and peacemakers . Its comparable because a lot of teachers of martial arts stress resolving problems by running away, talking them out, etc. They don't want their students waging a war on all the criminals in the city. The Jedi act similarly, meditating on courses of action before doing so.

And in this case, Luke could still have, you know, tried talking to his nephew about his problems. The fact that it's never considered, as far as we know, says bad things about his growth as a Jedi. Luke could have woken Ben up, and had a long discussion with him about what he saw. He could have left the hut and thought about it, he could have even have just stood there, with dark thoughts about killing Ben. Instead, he pulled out and ignited his lightsaber. There's several levels of self control Luke bypasses, and it betrays his character because he had several options to explore, which didn't occur to him.

Now, are either of you spending decades of your life learning peace, quiet contemplation, pondering mysteries and learning self control, and while also acting as a teacher for those in similar positions that you've been in, like Luke supposedly was? I'm trying to imagine the last time I had a meditation teacher bring out a knife because he didn't like a student's facial expression while in meditation. If you can't imagine the same thing happening, then you need to deal with how badly written The Ladt Jedi is.

Right, because a guy who can have visions of the future having a vision that someone is about to become a mass murderer is totally equivalent to not liking their facial expression.

These are all ridiculous false analogies, and I won't dignify them with further response. No one is saying you have to personally like the film, but please don't misrepresent canon so you can "prove" your personal dislikes are objectively bad. It just makes your argument look weak.

Okay, maybe I'm not explaining this right. If Luke really was a Jedi master, he'd know that his students would have problems with the dark side. Same way he did when he was younger. Those teachers guide the students out of it, and help them. Or at least try to. That Luke really went to murder first instead of walking Ben through his problems says that Luke lost a lot of who he was, that he's not recognizable as either the character he was, or as the character he was becoming. As Ray245 argues, they want to tear down the symbols of the original trilogy, and they are doing so beyond recognition.

A monk teacher will not be perfect, but he will at least be better at handling emotionally sensitive situations than a Vietnam veteran who still has flashbacks about what happened in his past by unconscious triggers. Which sounds more like what Luke was in the OT, and which sounds more like the Luke of the ST?

You're not getting this. Luke didn't just have an immediate thought about it after the 'horrible discovery ', he pulled out and ignited his fucking lightsaber. I don't get why this point is sailing over your head. Why did he pull out the lightsaber at all? Why didn't he think about it, and then meditate on it? Why is Luke's natural impulse to go for murder? Why is he so gung ho about it? Does he murder several sleeping people so that it's second nature by now?

I know exactly what Luke did. As to why he didn't think about it... well, he did. He ultimately reconsidered and didn't strike Ben dead. Which to me lends credence to the idea that it was not premeditated, cold-blooded attempted murder. If Luke had thought it out, and truly believed it was necessary, do you think he would have faltered in the moment of action? Luke is no strange to violence. He's not a man to back down easily from a course of action once he believes that its right.

Okay, dumb question, but are you familiar with weapons at all? I don't mean like the kitchen knife, I mean guns, swords, etc. Because anyone familiar with such things knows to respect them. To only use them when training with them, performing maintenance on them, or actually using them on others. The Jedi are pretty much the same way with their lightsabers, save that they also use them as a light source or to cut through things.

To consciously pull out a weapon like that shows that Luke was getting ready to murder his nephew. He wasn't just entertaining thoughts or being tempted, he was so far gone that he was committing action.

Do you really think he couldn't have killed Ben if that had been his intent?

That's my problem, he was already there, and only stopped because he had a Telltale Heart moment, and saw the eyes of his murder victim. If you consider the main character of the Telltale Heart a natural outgrowth of Luke Skywalker's character from the OT, then the film's backstory is solid. If you don't, you might have the same problems I do.

And no, I don't think his natural impulse is murder. But I do think that those who have been tempted once by the Dark Side can be tempted again. Luke showed on Endor that he is capable of rash violence toward a member of his family when the people he loves are in danger. He stopped himself then, just like he did here, but just because you resist once doesn't mean the temptation will go away, any more than taking heroin once without getting addicted means its safe for you to have heroin in the future.

Except that Luke had had decades to build up who he was. Except that the dark side isn't like heroin, and is more of dealing with your own demons, for they will come at your worst moments. And even taking your ridiculous heroin analogy, should we have seen Yoda occasionally considering murdering some younglings in the PT, because he's had students turn against him in the past? Or has he outgrown those failures and became better because of it, because he's since reflected on it and knows why that part is in him.

Luke should have dealt with that anger a long time ago. Not become on the verge of relapse when he sees something that scares him. And Luke in the OT never considered murdering people, that was never who he was. He fought in anger at times, but he also should have had context from then on of who he could and should be.

Thus is why I'm bringing up Luke's possible PTSD, which you ignore, because I guess you don't consider that it would have to be the only explanation that makes sense, as it doesn't fit the wise teacher monk mold Luke was becoming.

On the contrary, I think its a reasonably plausible explanation, or at least a partial explanation. Luke has experienced first hand what a powerful Dark Sider can do. Of course that is going to have an effect on his state of mind, especially in this situation.

State of mind, sure. Actually pulling out his weapon? Is he that broken?

Luke either is used to murdering people with his lightsaber that its natural habit, or this scene is out of character for him.

This is ridiculous. A man must be in the habit of routinely murdering people to be ever tempted toward preemptive violence under any circumstances?

A man? No. A monk who believes life is sacred, has spent not only years, but decades learning who and what he is, and growing into something better by adhering to the Jedi Code, and is also a generally compassionate man that values his family and has some sort of relevance in his life, yeah, I'd kind of wonder about his character if murder is so natural to him that he brings out a deadly weapon to kill his sleeping nephew, only to be stopped by the look of his nephew's eyes. I'd seriously wonder what happened to him in Nam. And why Leia and Han ever trusted their kid to him in the first place.

[ray245]

Luke the exile can be told in many ways. He could like Yoda, who failed the order but never actually came close to breaking the Jedi Code and vows.

LFL just chose the worst approach possible, because Rian Johnson is too caught up in the idea of framing the exact same scene in different light to consider the wider implications of such depiction.

IMO, Johnson is quite short sighted as a director/writer. In the sense that he can make really interesting and creative choices in writing and constructing a scene, but creating such scenes undermines a level of consistency needed for a series like SW.

It's a cool idea on paper, but it falls apart the more you break it down.

Is it "cool" to have Luke Skywalker depicted as failing his student in the worse possible way? Yeah, but it's also an idea that doesn't hold up well if you consider who he was as a character in the OT.

[FaxModem1]

Luke the exile can be told in many ways. He could like Yoda, who failed the order but never actually came close to breaking the Jedi Code and vows.

LFL just chose the worst approach possible, because Rian Johnson is too caught up in the idea of framing the exact same scene in different light to consider the wider implications of such depiction.

IMO, Johnson is quite short sighted as a director/writer. In the sense that he can make really interesting and creative choices in writing and constructing a scene, but creating such scenes undermines a level of consistency needed for a series like SW.

It's a cool idea on paper, but it falls apart the more you break it down.

Is it "cool" to have Luke Skywalker depicted as failing his student in the worse possible way? Yeah, but it's also an idea that doesn't hold up well if you consider who he was as a character in the OT.

I could see Luke failing in that his expectations don't meet reality, maybe even that he really thinks that he's too good to make a mistake and teaches Ben Solo the wrong lessons, doesn't realize that Ben really isn't interested in helping others, etc.

I think the ideal relationship would be similar to the one Rocky had with his protege Tommy Gunn in Rocky V. Putting more stock in their relationship than was really there, not realizing until the end that he was just being used, and that all Ben Solo wanted was the tools to success for the wrong reasons. That I could see happening, Luke failing because he's willing to be judge, jury, and executioner, not so much.

EDIT: I could really see a scene between Luke and Ben going like this for instance, only with Luke being much eloquent, while the sentiment is the same, "You need to realize that you're not Obi Wan, and I'm not you."

[Elfdart]

I don't think they have any idea on what to do with it beyond making it look cool. JJ Abrams is a very, very "American action-hero" style of director, and many of his leading heroes were very much in the mould of being very aggressive action-heroes.

I don't think any of the new directors of the SW franchise really understood what Lucas was actually doing with the concept of the force and heroism. And like some posters in this forum, I think they've misidentified the core philosophy behind the force. They want the force to be some vague mystical force, when that was never really the case in the OT.

Lucas did have rather consistent idea on how one become a Jedi knight and "one with the force". Luke's journey is very, very similar to the "journey" of Buddha and Buddhistavas. It's quite clearly established that the force is more about how a person engage with himself/herself rather than interacting with an energy field. Yes, you interact with the "force" to gain abilities, but the story was never about "unlocking" more force abilities.

The story, has always been about personal self-enlightenment in the case of Luke, and failure to achieve that in the case of Anakin. Luke's battle with Vader in ROTJ did not result in him "unlocking" any new abilities. Rather, his forgiveness of his father set forth the chain of events that would result in the death of the Emperor.

Luke won the day by throwing away his weapons in the face of an Emperor who wanted to kill him. The new movies have become far too concerned with force abilities and less about personal self-enlightenment.

Why is Rey a good Jedi at the end of TLJ? Because she got some books and can raise some rocks? That's already a sign of Rian Johnson missing the point about what being a Jedi is all about. Or how the kids will become Jedi because they can force grab some broomsticks? Force abilties doesn't make one a good "hero" or a good Jedi. Wars don't make one great.

Being a heroic Jedi was never about force abilities. With JJ Abrams making Rey do more awesome backflips in the trailer, I feel that we are once again going to have a movie where the directors misunderstood the heroism that was established in the OT and PT.

That's well-observed, but Abrams' philosophy as a filmmaker has always been that if sometimes less is more, then more is even more than that. Of course his new WMD would blow away a whole system rather than a planet. Of course the bad guys' ships would be five times as big. So I'm sure Rey's abilities will get turned up to 11 as well.

I think that a vast majority of SW fans, especially "western" fans miss a lot of themes in SW because they were used to a very specific idea of "heroism". Heroism in a lot of western mythos and films are all about the hero being active and aggressive in their task. Passivity, and a willing to trust in others tends to be things neglected or undervalued as a hero. Rian Johnson making Luke wanting to kill Kylo Ren is just one example. I get that what he was trying to do was to make Luke more flawed as a Jedi Master, but it really missed the point of Luke as a character.

I disagree somewhat. The idea of an enlightened man suddenly pissing his pants and trying to stab his nephew in his bed is retarded in any milieu. Star Wars was heavily influenced by The Searchers and one of the themes in that particular John Wayne classic is that Martin Pauley (Luke) has a real dilemma in that his surrogate father-figure Ethan Edwards (Vader) is a murderous racist lunatic who has spent five years trying to track down the Comanches who abducted his niece so he can kill them and her at the same time. Evil though Edwards is, Pauley can't bring himself to kill him in spite of having several chances to do so, even when the girl he was raised with is in mortal danger from Edwards. Finally, thanks to Pauley's earnest desire to do good rather than seek bloody revenge, Edwards has a change of conscience and helps save his niece rather than killing her.

In most classic westerns, the hero is usually the passive one -i.e. not the one looking for trouble, but forced to act when the bad guys give him no choice. That started to change with movies like Vera Cruz, where the audience (and a generation of Italian movie-makers) identified more with the charismatic heel Joe Erin (Burt Lancaster) over the more traditional, stoic hero Ben Trane (Gary Cooper).

[Gandalf]

Here's the problem with that. Either, A. Luke decided to check up on his nephew and didnt just contemplate it in his mind, but did the physical action of pulling out his lightsaber, decided killing his nephew in his sleep was his best plan of action, waking up his nephew, or B. he sensed the darkness before then, and decided to go to Ben's hut to murder him, which means he straight up decided to murder him, with premeditated thought behind it. This is, as pointed out earlier in the thread, akin to a cop not liking what he sees in his nephew's diary after the kid makes some comments at training, and without talking to him about it, decides to kill him in his sleep, draws out his pistol, and chambers a round, pointing it at the kid.

That's a few steps beyond impulsive. The fact that you and TRR are ignoring how out of character this is for Luke shows how out of step you are. In real life, I'm sure someone has cut you off in traffic, or shoved you, maybe even thrown a punch. Do you immediately go for your Glock? Or do you try and act as an adult?

Now, are either of you spending decades of your life learning peace, quiet contemplation, pondering mysteries and learning self control, and while also acting as a teacher for those in similar positions that you've been in, like Luke supposedly was? I'm trying to imagine the last time I had a meditation teacher bring out a knife because he didn't like a student's facial expression while in meditation. If you can't imagine the same thing happening, then you need to deal with how badly written The Ladt Jedi is.

Your argument here is a bit all over the place, but TRR already addressed your wacky false dilemma.

But the second part is where it gets odd. People make mistakes, even the Most Holy Luke Skywalker makes them. Luke rushed off to fight Vader in ESB. Luke wailed on his father until he had a moment of realisation. These are all things that happen when it's Luke versus the machine. What happens when Luke suddenly doesn't just have space wizard powers, but also actual responsibilities? That's what happened with Ben, he panicked, drew his lightsabre, but had his moment of realisation just a moment too late. In the same way that Kylo is playing Vader, the First Order are playing Empire, and the Resistance are playing Rebellion, they were all set in place because Luke played Jedi. Not the real Jedi either, but the deified version he had in his head. Then it all fell down.

To quote Watchmen: "I did the right thing, didn't I? It all worked out in the end."
"'In the end'? Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends."

[FaxModem1]

Here's the problem with that. Either, A. Luke decided to check up on his nephew and didnt just contemplate it in his mind, but did the physical action of pulling out his lightsaber, decided killing his nephew in his sleep was his best plan of action, waking up his nephew, or B. he sensed the darkness before then, and decided to go to Ben's hut to murder him, which means he straight up decided to murder him, with premeditated thought behind it. This is, as pointed out earlier in the thread, akin to a cop not liking what he sees in his nephew's diary after the kid makes some comments at training, and without talking to him about it, decides to kill him in his sleep, draws out his pistol, and chambers a round, pointing it at the kid.

That's a few steps beyond impulsive. The fact that you and TRR are ignoring how out of character this is for Luke shows how out of step you are. In real life, I'm sure someone has cut you off in traffic, or shoved you, maybe even thrown a punch. Do you immediately go for your Glock? Or do you try and act as an adult?

Now, are either of you spending decades of your life learning peace, quiet contemplation, pondering mysteries and learning self control, and while also acting as a teacher for those in similar positions that you've been in, like Luke supposedly was? I'm trying to imagine the last time I had a meditation teacher bring out a knife because he didn't like a student's facial expression while in meditation. If you can't imagine the same thing happening, then you need to deal with how badly written The Ladt Jedi is.

Your argument here is a bit all over the place, but TRR already addressed your wacky false dilemma.

But the second part is where it gets odd. People make mistakes, even the Most Holy Luke Skywalker makes them. Luke rushed off to fight Vader in ESB. Luke wailed on his father until he had a moment of realisation. These are all things that happen when it's Luke versus the machine. What happens when Luke suddenly doesn't just have space wizard powers, but also actual responsibilities? That's what happened with Ben, he panicked, drew his lightsabre, but had his moment of realisation just a moment too late. In the same way that Kylo is playing Vader, the First Order are playing Empire, and the Resistance are playing Rebellion, they were all set in place because Luke played Jedi. Not the real Jedi either, but the deified version he had in his head. Then it all fell down.

To quote Watchmen: "I did the right thing, didn't I? It all worked out in the end."
"'In the end'? Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends."

So, Luke, trying to emulate the ideal Jedi he has in his head, people who are all about doing the right thing, righting wrongs, helping out people, etc, pulls out his lightsaber to murder his nephew in his sleep. Yes, I see how that makes perfect sense.

Luke having thoughts about killing his nephew, even for a moment, I could understand. But again, I don't see many people hovering over their relatives with potential murder weapons because of a bad sense of what they're going to do. Not unless they're dangerously mentally ill. Again, the person I think of when it comes to such things is the main character from the Telltale Heart, who wants to murder someone in their sleep, and is only stopped because they don't consider the person dangerous at the moment.

Again, he pulled out the weapon against someone who wasn't trying to harm anyone, wasn't threatening to harm anyone, wasn't talking to Luke, who wasn't even awake. Luke showed more self control when the Emperor was goading him in ROTJ. That means that in the intervening decades, Luke became used to pulling out his weapon when he thought someone was trouble, for it to become second habit like that. Which, from what little we've seen in the new EU, such as Battlefront II, is the opposite case, where he is patient, compassionate, and trying to see the best in others.

As I mentioned before, and you have ignored, Luke would have to have some sort of PTSD to have such an itchy trigger finger when it comes to weapon safety and perceived threats, considering he knows how dangerous a lightsaber is, and wasn't in serious need of a light source, and wasn't bringing out his lightsaber for every single person he ran into in the OT. This is especially odd, as Luke's journey was one of, as I've said before, 'becoming an enlightened monk'. If he really was going for the version of Jedi in his head, surely he would have thought the peaceful Jedi solution would be the way to go, right? Maybe even talking things out with his padawan and helping him see what was wrong?

But then, we can't get our fallen icon if Luke acted like the person he was by the end of his character arc in OT, now could we?

[Gandalf]

So, Luke, trying to emulate the ideal Jedi he has in his head, people who are all about doing the right thing, righting wrongs, helping out people, etc, pulls out his lightsaber to murder his nephew in his sleep. Yes, I see how that makes perfect sense.

Luke having thoughts about killing his nephew, even for a moment, I could understand. But again, I don't see many people hovering over their relatives with potential murder weapons because of a bad sense of what they're going to do. Not unless they're dangerously mentally ill. Again, the person I think of when it comes to such things is the main character from the Telltale Heart, who wants to murder someone in their sleep, and is only stopped because they don't consider the person dangerous at the moment.

Again, he pulled out the weapon against someone who wasn't trying to harm anyone, wasn't threatening to harm anyone, wasn't talking to Luke, who wasn't even awake. Luke showed more self control when the Emperor was goading him in ROTJ. That means that in the intervening decades, Luke became used to pulling out his weapon when he thought someone was trouble, for it to become second habit like that. Which, from what little we've seen in the new EU, such as Battlefront II, is the opposite case, where he is patient, compassionate, and trying to see the best in others.

"Luke showed more self control when the Emperor was goading him in ROTJ."

You remember when he had Vader on the ground and was hacking away at him right, only stopping when seeing Vader's prosthesis which looked like his own? You can try and split some hairs there, but Luke is really easy to goad.

But to address the rest of this, Luke tried and then he failed. It turns out being a wizard teacher and having galaxy spanning responsibilities is really different to his life before, and I don't think Luke has a degree in wizard education, maybe not even a diploma. He thought he could pass on his skills and such... and met a challenge so fucked up that he freaked out and pulled his weapon out, relenting a moment later.

As I mentioned before, and you have ignored, Luke would have to have some sort of PTSD to have such an itchy trigger finger when it comes to weapon safety and perceived threats, considering he knows how dangerous a lightsaber is, and wasn't in serious need of a light source, and wasn't bringing out his lightsaber for every single person he ran into in the OT. This is especially odd, as Luke's journey was one of, as I've said before, 'becoming an enlightened monk'. If he really was going for the version of Jedi in his head, surely he would have thought the peaceful Jedi solution would be the way to go, right? Maybe even talking things out with his padawan and helping him see what was wrong?

But then, we can't get our fallen icon if Luke acted like the person he was by the end of his character arc in OT, now could we?

I ignored it because it's based on sweet fuck all, and if I were to go "mental illness" based on such a thing I'd like the US media every time a white guy kills a bunch of people. "It can't be a character failing, for that would require greater examination of context. It must be an illness." It's lazy. Some people just suck, or sometimes really fuck things up.

[FaxModem1]

So, Luke, trying to emulate the ideal Jedi he has in his head, people who are all about doing the right thing, righting wrongs, helping out people, etc, pulls out his lightsaber to murder his nephew in his sleep. Yes, I see how that makes perfect sense.

Luke having thoughts about killing his nephew, even for a moment, I could understand. But again, I don't see many people hovering over their relatives with potential murder weapons because of a bad sense of what they're going to do. Not unless they're dangerously mentally ill. Again, the person I think of when it comes to such things is the main character from the Telltale Heart, who wants to murder someone in their sleep, and is only stopped because they don't consider the person dangerous at the moment.

Again, he pulled out the weapon against someone who wasn't trying to harm anyone, wasn't threatening to harm anyone, wasn't talking to Luke, who wasn't even awake. Luke showed more self control when the Emperor was goading him in ROTJ. That means that in the intervening decades, Luke became used to pulling out his weapon when he thought someone was trouble, for it to become second habit like that. Which, from what little we've seen in the new EU, such as Battlefront II, is the opposite case, where he is patient, compassionate, and trying to see the best in others.

"Luke showed more self control when the Emperor was goading him in ROTJ."

You remember when he had Vader on the ground and was hacking away at him right, only stopping when seeing Vader's prosthesis which looked like his own? You can try and split some hairs there, but Luke is really easy to goad.

You remember how Vader was fighting him too, right? Or how Vader was goading him during the fight, right? Or how Palpatine and Vader were stressing that they would turn/kill everyone Luke knew, including his recently discovered sister? As opposed to seeing horrifying visions of the future while the person is sleeping and at worst, drooling on their pillow. This is at the same time that Luke is constantly trying to talk Vader down and redeem him. We don't know if Luke even tried to do the same thing for Ben. You may see this as splitting hairs, but I see it as a vast chasm between freaking out that your nephew has homicidal tendencies, and being ready to knife him right then and there. That you see no difference between them is where we disagree.

But to address the rest of this, Luke tried and then he failed. It turns out being a wizard teacher and having galaxy spanning responsibilities is really different to his life before, and I don't think Luke has a degree in wizard education, maybe not even a diploma. He thought he could pass on his skills and such... and met a challenge so fucked up that he freaked out and pulled his weapon out, relenting a moment later.

No, I get that. I'm just surprised it got to that level. How many Deans of Universities, teachers, sheriffs, and Elected officials start getting out their pistols when surprised by the amount of stress they're facing?

As I mentioned before, and you have ignored, Luke would have to have some sort of PTSD to have such an itchy trigger finger when it comes to weapon safety and perceived threats, considering he knows how dangerous a lightsaber is, and wasn't in serious need of a light source, and wasn't bringing out his lightsaber for every single person he ran into in the OT. This is especially odd, as Luke's journey was one of, as I've said before, 'becoming an enlightened monk'. If he really was going for the version of Jedi in his head, surely he would have thought the peaceful Jedi solution would be the way to go, right? Maybe even talking things out with his padawan and helping him see what was wrong?

But then, we can't get our fallen icon if Luke acted like the person he was by the end of his character arc in OT, now could we?

I ignored it because it's based on sweet fuck all, and if I were to go "mental illness" based on such a thing I'd like the US media every time a white guy kills a bunch of people. "It can't be a character failing, for that would require greater examination of context. It must be an illness." It's lazy. Some people just suck, or sometimes really fuck things up.

The problem is, we don't really have enough context here to really justify this, considering Luke, in previous films, was portrayed as a decent guy who wanted to help people and save the galaxy. Luke wasn't some guy in Aunt Beru's basement, torturing small animals and droids for pleasure and suddenly flipped out when he was in a position of power and had opportunity over a younger family member. Unless his killing of womp rats in his T-16 is supposed to be indications of Luke's prior psychotic behavior, as opposed to a country bumpkin shooting at pest animals that bother his farm. Unless you're saying that most people are capable of murdering their nephews when pressed by disturbing news about them?

Hell, if you were in a room with a sleeping relative, and found their journal of crazy, would you immediately go for the kitchen knife? Or would you maybe try and get him some help? We have no context of Luke doing the latter, which seems so out of character for him.

[Gandalf]

You remember how Vader was fighting him too, right? Or how Vader was goading him during the fight, right? Or how Palpatine and Vader were stressing that they would turn/kill everyone Luke knew, including his recently discovered sister? As opposed to seeing horrifying visions of the future while the person is sleeping and at worst, drooling on their pillow. This is at the same time that Luke is constantly trying to talk Vader down and redeem him. We don't know if Luke even tried to do the same thing for Ben. You may see this as splitting hairs, but I see it as a vast chasm between freaking out that your nephew has homicidal tendencies, and being ready to knife him right then and there. That you see no difference between them is where we disagree.

So you concede that Luke is easily goaded when the right buttons are pushed. Cool.

But to address the rest of this, Luke tried and then he failed. It turns out being a wizard teacher and having galaxy spanning responsibilities is really different to his life before, and I don't think Luke has a degree in wizard education, maybe not even a diploma. He thought he could pass on his skills and such... and met a challenge so fucked up that he freaked out and pulled his weapon out, relenting a moment later.

No, I get that. I'm just surprised it got to that level. How many Deans of Universities, teachers, sheriffs, and Elected officials start getting out their pistols when surprised by the amount of stress they're facing?

Why are you surprised it got to that level? Back when I taught at university, the worst thing one of my students could do with the information I was imparting was write bad essays. At space wizard school, the stakes are higher. Maybe there should have been some ethicists on hand to help with ideas of power.

The problem is, we don't really have enough context here to really justify this, considering Luke, in previous films, was portrayed as a decent guy who wanted to help people and save the galaxy. Luke wasn't some guy in Aunt Beru's basement, torturing small animals and droids for pleasure and suddenly flipped out when he was in a position of power and had opportunity over a younger family member. Unless his killing of womp rats in his T-16 is supposed to be indications of Luke's prior psychotic behavior, as opposed to a country bumpkin shooting at pest animals that bother his farm. Unless you're saying that most people are capable of murdering their nephews when pressed by disturbing news about them?

Hell, if you were in a room with a sleeping relative, and found their journal of crazy, would you immediately go for the kitchen knife? Or would you maybe try and get him some help? We have no context of Luke doing the latter, which seems so out of character for him.

"I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd see it at moments during his training. But then I looked inside... and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death... and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct... I thought I could stop it."

That's way more than a "journal of crazy." Stop being dishonest, it's fucking tiring. He saw Ben fucking up everything, much like Vader threatened to do. Luke's lived through that before, and evidently didn't like the idea of it happening again. Like a split second trolley problem.

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't think Luke was seriously planning it out, but it says bad things about Luke that he pulled his lightsaber out at all. That's my hang up.

This is a pretty big reversal from your suggesting that Luke went to the hut have premeditated Ben's murder, but okay.

And yeah, it says something bad about Luke. He admits as much himself. That's the whole fucking point: Luke isn't perfect.

See, the situations are comparable, because Jedi don't try violence unless it's the only action available. There's a reason they were known as diplomats and peacemakers . Its comparable because a lot of teachers of martial arts stress resolving problems by running away, talking them out, etc. They don't want their students waging a war on all the criminals in the city. The Jedi act similarly, meditating on courses of action before doing so.

Jedi aren't supposed to react with violence unless its the only action available. Jedi are also human(oid, mostly), and therefore imperfect.

And in this case, Luke could still have, you know, tried talking to his nephew about his problems. The fact that it's never considered, as far as we know, says bad things about his growth as a Jedi. Luke could have woken Ben up, and had a long discussion with him about what he saw. He could have left the hut and thought about it, he could have even have just stood there, with dark thoughts about killing Ben. Instead, he pulled out and ignited his lightsaber. There's several levels of self control Luke bypasses, and it betrays his character because he had several options to explore, which didn't occur to him.

A fallible man making a terrible mistake similar to ones he has made before under pressure does not necessarily betray his character.

Luke has lashed out in anger before. He's done it when his friends were in danger before. He stopped himself then, and he stopped himself this time. The main difference is that the circumstances were such that it was too late to avoid disaster this time.

You think he should have learned better after years of study as a Jedi knight and master. I think that your flaws don't necessarily go away because you resist them once, or twice, and that the Dark Side's influence tends to grow stronger every time you're tempted. I don't think that there's any way to objectively prove that one of those views is always right and the other always wrong.

Okay, maybe I'm not explaining this right. If Luke really was a Jedi master, he'd know that his students would have problems with the dark side. Same way he did when he was younger. Those teachers guide the students out of it, and help them. Or at least try to. That Luke really went to murder first instead of walking Ben through his problems says that Luke lost a lot of who he was, that he's not recognizable as either the character he was, or as the character he was becoming. As Ray245 argues, they want to tear down the symbols of the original trilogy, and they are doing so beyond recognition.

A monk teacher will not be perfect, but he will at least be better at handling emotionally sensitive situations than a Vietnam veteran who still has flashbacks about what happened in his past by unconscious triggers. Which sounds more like what Luke was in the OT, and which sounds more like the Luke of the ST?

The thing is, we DON'T know, except in very broad strokes plus a couple somewhat ambiguous flashback scenes, what happened to Luke during those years. We don't really know what brought him to that point. I can certainly envision plausible paths from the Luke we saw in RotJ to the Luke we saw in TLJ. But it feels abrupt, because we don't see most of his journey over the thirty-plus years in-between.

What we do know, however, is that he experienced first-hand what Sith were capable of, that he experienced torture and having his friends held hostage against him and the brutal destruction of his home and murder of his kin and having his hand cut off by his own fucking father during the Galactic Civil War, and that he lashed out in anger and acted rashly on more than one occassion. He rose above it, but that doesn't mean he'll never be tempted again, especially when he sees the same thing about to happen again in Ben.

And no, I don't think the goal was to "tear down the symbols of the original trilogy". I think that that's a narrative pushed by bitter OT fanboys because it allows them to frame the films as a malicious attack on the franchise and the "true fans", rather than simply being movies they didn't personally like. Just like how they pretend that the line "let the past die" was a mission statement for the film rather than an in-character rambling by a delusional, self-aggrandizing space incel. Luke's final stand was as beautiful a send-off for the character as I could have hoped for, and did full justice to him, in my opinion.

Okay, dumb question, but are you familiar with weapons at all? I don't mean like the kitchen knife, I mean guns, swords, etc. Because anyone familiar with such things knows to respect them. To only use them when training with them, performing maintenance on them, or actually using them on others. The Jedi are pretty much the same way with their lightsabers, save that they also use them as a light source or to cut through things.

To consciously pull out a weapon like that shows that Luke was getting ready to murder his nephew. He wasn't just entertaining thoughts or being tempted, he was so far gone that he was committing action.

My knowledge of weapons is, I acknowledge, almost entirely second-hand- the closest I've come to weapons training is one session of stage fencing in a high school drama class, and a brief intro to some basic hand-to-hand techniques (how to break a choke hold and such) in a security guard training class.

That said, I go off of what Luke said about his thought processes at the time. Its possible Luke was lying, of course, or at least blurring the truth, but that's on you to prove if you want to make that claim. I certainly think his version has more credibility to it than Ben's (which in addition to coming from a more obvious un-credible source, is far more self-serving than Luke's tale).

That's my problem, he was already there, and only stopped because he had a Telltale Heart moment, and saw the eyes of his murder victim. If you consider the main character of the Telltale Heart a natural outgrowth of Luke Skywalker's character from the OT, then the film's backstory is solid. If you don't, you might have the same problems I do.

I know jack about Telltale Heart, so the reference is flying clear over my head here.

Except that Luke had had decades to build up who he was. Except that the dark side isn't like heroin, and is more of dealing with your own demons, for they will come at your worst moments. And even taking your ridiculous heroin analogy, should we have seen Yoda occasionally considering murdering some younglings in the PT, because he's had students turn against him in the past? Or has he outgrown those failures and became better because of it, because he's since reflected on it and knows why that part is in him.

Luke should have dealt with that anger a long time ago. Not become on the verge of relapse when he sees something that scares him. And Luke in the OT never considered murdering people, that was never who he was. He fought in anger at times, but he also should have had context from then on of who he could and should be.

Yoda, to my knowledge, never lashed out at a close relative in anger. Luke did. Yoda also has had 900 years, mostly in peace time, to master Jedi teachings. Luke has had a few decades, much of it during a period of horrific galactic war.

And no, heroine is not a perfect analogy for the Force- nothing in the real world is. But there are parallels. The addictive nature of the Dark Side is pretty well-established, as is the effect of using it on the psychological stability of the user.

State of mind, sure. Actually pulling out his weapon? Is he that broken?

Evidently, yes. The question is whether you believe that's a plausible road for Luke to go down. I think it is.

Its hard to watch a beloved legend fall short. I get why it bothers people on a purely emotional level. But I don't think its implausible or contradicting prior canon, and the film ultimately allows Luke to learn from and rise above his failures, so I do not see it as a destruction of his character (note that I am a huge Luke fan, was long before TLJ, and I would not give them a pass on it if I felt that the film had ruined Luke, any more than I gave GoT a pass for character-assassinating Daenerys).

A man? No. A monk who believes life is sacred, has spent not only years, but decades learning who and what he is, and growing into something better by adhering to the Jedi Code, and is also a generally compassionate man that values his family and has some sort of relevance in his life, yeah, I'd kind of wonder about his character if murder is so natural to him that he brings out a deadly weapon to kill his sleeping nephew, only to be stopped by the look of his nephew's eyes. I'd seriously wonder what happened to him in Nam. And why Leia and Han ever trusted their kid to him in the first place.

You make it sound like he just decided to commit murder on a whim for no reason. As opposed to, you know, seeing Ben's thoughts/a vision showing that Ben was going to go on a murderous rampage and kill everyone he loved.

How many people have talked about going back in time to kill baby Hitler? Well, here's Luke standing over baby Hitler's crib, except Hitler is a grown man who's already dabbling with darkness, and has space wizard powers, and Luke's students are going to be the first victims when everything goes to hell, followed by the rest of his family. And all he has to do is strike first. Is it really so hard to believe that even a good man would be tempted?

This is what the Dark Side does- it shows you what you fear, and offers you a way out if you give into fear and rage and lash out. But its a trap, like all deals with the devil, and tends to lead to the very outcome you hoped to avoid. It did it to Anakin with Padme, it did it to Luke at Endor, and it did it to Luke again when he stood over Ben with his lightsaber in his hand. Luke, to his credit, stopped at the brink (twice), while his father jumped headlong over the edge. But the temptation is there. Even for a Master. Why do you think the Jedi were so damn scared of the Dark Side that they tried to cut off all normal emotions out of fear that it would corrupt them (which, ironically, means that they were giving in to fear and lashing out as a consequence- and sure enough, it lead to their destruction)?

[The Romulan Republic]

I'll add that I think that TLJ really nails, and crystalizes, the nature of the Dark Side as depicted over the previous films. The Dark Side is first and foremost about fear- it plays on your fear to drive you to despair and desperation, and hence to lash out in rage. The opposite of this despair-driven rage is hope, even in the face of seemingly impossible odds. Hence Snoke's line to Rey (which IIRC is the first time a character explicitly recognizes her as being worthy of being a Jedi):

Snoke: "Oh! Still that fiery spit of hope. You have the spirit of a true Jedi."

The loss of hope, or faith, repeatedly leads to rash choices and disaster throughout the film (Poe's mutiny, DJ's treachery, the galaxy abandoning the Resistance, Luke's exile, etc.). And Luke's sacrifice is about inspiring and restoring that hope.

Edit: Though it plays with contemporary cynicism and "both sides" narratives and so on, and disillusionment in our heroes and ideals, the film ultimately does so to set up a repudiation of cynicism and restoration of hope. It is a very anti-nihilistic film, and that's something I think we really need more of right now.

[ray245]

What I don't like about the sequel era is that it rob us of an opportunity to show us what Luke actually learned from the old Jedi order and how he would have done things differently with his new Jedi Order. The old EU legends have their problems, but they do attempt to show how the New Jedi Order is more willing to allow Jedi to develop attachments and etc.

[The Romulan Republic]

What I don't like about the sequel era is that it rob us of an opportunity to show us what Luke actually learned from the old Jedi order and how he would have done things differently with his new Jedi Order. The old EU legends have their problems, but they do attempt to show how the New Jedi Order is more willing to allow Jedi to develop attachments and etc.

I do think, and I've noted before, that TLJ would have benefited from more flashbacks showing what happened between the trilogies. Or, if they don't want to fill the whole movie with that, it would be great to see some of Luke's academy in a book or TV series.

One thing that's very important to me is that Luke's order (and any new order created by Rey) do not reject emotional attachment or love. The evolution of the Jedi from imposed cold detachment out of fear, to accepting families and attachment, and Luke ultimately making that a strength instead of a weakness, is hugely important to me. I do worry that the ST has undermined that somewhat with Kylo's family issues leading to his fall, but its ambiguous enough that they could still take it in the right direction.

God damn it, I don't normally go for pushing ships, but I want IX to have a flashback scene showing Luke getting together with Mara Jade (if Rey turns out to be a Skywalker after all, it would be easy to introduce Mara as her mother), and for it to end with Finn and Rey going off to make Jedi babies together (the latter, being a black man and a white woman, would be a perfect fuck you to the Alt. Reich troll crowd).

[ray245]

I do think, and I've noted before, that TLJ would have benefited from more flashbacks showing what happened between the trilogies. Or, if they don't want to fill the whole movie with that, it would be great to see some of Luke's academy in a book or TV series.

One thing that's very important to me is that Luke's order (and any new order created by Rey) do not reject emotional attachment or love. The evolution of the Jedi from imposed cold detachment out of fear, to accepting families and attachment, and Luke ultimately making that a strength instead of a weakness, is hugely important to me. I do worry that the ST has undermined that somewhat with Kylo's family issues leading to his fall, but its ambiguous enough that they could still take it in the right direction.

God damn it, I don't normally go for pushing ships, but I want IX to have a flashback scene showing Luke getting together with Mara Jade (if Rey turns out to be a Skywalker after all, it would be easy to introduce Mara as her mother), and for it to end with Finn and Rey going off to make Jedi babies together (the latter, being a black man and a white woman, would be a perfect fuck you to the Alt. Reich troll crowd).

Flashbacks are pointless because Luke's order was wiped out before Ep 7. Luke's order is even less effective than the old Jedi Order, so any positive depiction of the Luke's Order could be seen as an validation of the Old Jedi Order's principles and ideology.

All of Luke's surviving students joined Kylo Ren and fell to the dark side. So if Luke's order is depicted as being more accepting of attachment or love, it will create a subtext that love makes it even easier from one to fall to the dark side.

[FaxModem1]

I don't think Luke was seriously planning it out, but it says bad things about Luke that he pulled his lightsaber out at all. That's my hang up.

This is a pretty big reversal from your suggesting that Luke went to the hut have premeditated Ben's murder, but okay.

Mostly because I wondered what Luke was doing in Ben's hut in the first place, which is why I've made jokes in the past about Luke liking to watch his nephew sleep. I'm convinced that a 'therapy session' of watching his student/padawan in their natural state to get a gauge at where they are is plausible for Luke's character. So I'm willing to buy that, if Luke wasn't seriously planning on murdering Ben, him being there to try and help his student works for me. That's the Luke Skywalker I'd buy.

And yeah, it says something bad about Luke. He admits as much himself. That's the whole fucking point: Luke isn't perfect.

There's a key difference between "Luke isn't perfect", which I'm okay with seeing the ST explore, see my post showing a deluded Luke being like Rocky from Rocky V, in which his apprentice is completely using him and he doesn't realize it until it's too late, and "Luke is such a horrible person that he's willing to kill family members who are defenseless and sleeping", as opposed to simply waking Ben up and asking him, "Why are you tempted? I'm not here to judge, let's talk while I serve us some blue milk."

See, the situations are comparable, because Jedi don't try violence unless it's the only action available. There's a reason they were known as diplomats and peacemakers . Its comparable because a lot of teachers of martial arts stress resolving problems by running away, talking them out, etc. They don't want their students waging a war on all the criminals in the city. The Jedi act similarly, meditating on courses of action before doing so.

Jedi aren't supposed to react with violence unless its the only action available. Jedi are also human(oid, mostly), and therefore imperfect.

I'm not trying to say that Jedi are walking saints who can't do anything wrong, but that they DO, from what we see of them, try and go for the peaceful method first. Luke's training was either so flawed from Yoda, Obi Wan, and his own studies that he doesn't consider that option as a way to deal with a problem, especially with a family member, or his new 'evolved' Jedi Order was keen on seeing violence as a way to deal with problems first rather than negotiation and diplomacy. If that's the case, then it's a rather sad warping of what the Jedi were meant to be, and what Luke's Jedi Order was to be.

Problem is, we KNOW that's not the case. Luke's showing of him becoming a Jedi is not giving in to violence,it's throwing down his lightsaber, refusing the Emperor, and showing compassion for his father. Palpatine even goes so far as acknowledging it, "So be it, Jedi."

It's also, from the little new EU that we have, out of character for him. It also negated the themes of the PT Jedi Order being flawed and Luke bringing about a Jedi Order without those flaws. Though, I will acknowledge that Rey is supposed to be serving that purpose now.

And in this case, Luke could still have, you know, tried talking to his nephew about his problems. The fact that it's never considered, as far as we know, says bad things about his growth as a Jedi. Luke could have woken Ben up, and had a long discussion with him about what he saw. He could have left the hut and thought about it, he could have even have just stood there, with dark thoughts about killing Ben. Instead, he pulled out and ignited his lightsaber. There's several levels of self control Luke bypasses, and it betrays his character because he had several options to explore, which didn't occur to him.

A fallible man making a terrible mistake similar to ones he has made before under pressure does not necessarily betray his character.

Luke has lashed out in anger before. He's done it when his friends were in danger before. He stopped himself then, and he stopped himself this time. The main difference is that the circumstances were such that it was too late to avoid disaster this time.

You think he should have learned better after years of study as a Jedi knight and master. I think that your flaws don't necessarily go away because you resist them once, or twice, and that the Dark Side's influence tends to grow stronger every time you're tempted. I don't think that there's any way to objectively prove that one of those views is always right and the other always wrong.

This is why I bring up Yoda. We see Yoda being tempted in the Clone Wars cartoon, and how a Jedi can successfully deny the Dark Side within.



Yoda, like a monk, accepts that this is part of him, and learns the lesson to accept his dark side is part of him, and tell it no. Fighting it only increases it's strength, but accepting it removes it, letting him be free of it's influence.

As I said, they deal with the demons within, and that prevents such things from getting power.

Luke, in the OT, did lash out, yes. But cold blooded murder? Or even losing himself so that he isn't only tempted, but actually plans to go through with murdering his nephew? As noted, Luke has lashed out in anger, but that's VERY different from murder in someone's sleep. We don't see Luke approach Palpatine's chambers with a pillow to smother the Emperor or Vader while they're in nap time. Instead, we see them confront them, unarmed, to try and reason with Vader. He's goaded later, but he does try the peaceful approach first, and then succeeds later when he reaches his zen moment.

Okay, maybe I'm not explaining this right. If Luke really was a Jedi master, he'd know that his students would have problems with the dark side. Same way he did when he was younger. Those teachers guide the students out of it, and help them. Or at least try to. That Luke really went to murder first instead of walking Ben through his problems says that Luke lost a lot of who he was, that he's not recognizable as either the character he was, or as the character he was becoming. As Ray245 argues, they want to tear down the symbols of the original trilogy, and they are doing so beyond recognition.

A monk teacher will not be perfect, but he will at least be better at handling emotionally sensitive situations than a Vietnam veteran who still has flashbacks about what happened in his past by unconscious triggers. Which sounds more like what Luke was in the OT, and which sounds more like the Luke of the ST?

The thing is, we DON'T know, except in very broad strokes plus a couple somewhat ambiguous flashback scenes, what happened to Luke during those years. We don't really know what brought him to that point. I can certainly envision plausible paths from the Luke we saw in RotJ to the Luke we saw in TLJ. But it feels abrupt, because we don't see most of his journey over the thirty-plus years in-between.

What we do know, however, is that he experienced first-hand what Sith were capable of, that he experienced torture and having his friends held hostage against him and the brutal destruction of his home and murder of his kin and having his hand cut off by his own fucking father during the Galactic Civil War, and that he lashed out in anger and acted rashly on more than one occasion. He rose above it, but that doesn't mean he'll never be tempted again, especially when he sees the same thing about to happen again in Ben.

Sure, Luke might be tempted all the time. Same way that we're all tempted in everyday life. Thing is, as far as know, Luke never went full Sith, and didn't surrender his entire life to giving in and indulging every whim. He lashed out in anger once, and became aware of what that anger's future was for him, which solidified his position as a Jedi. This was conveyed in cinematic language with Luke seeing the damage on Vader's cybernetic arm, and the damage on his own cybernetic arm, receiving a moment of clarity in which he sees where that path leads, turning away from it.

You're arguing that Luke essentially had a relapse. I'm pointing out that unless Luke didn't develop as a Jedi, which, from the little we've seen, he did, that shouldn't have happened the way it did. Luke should know that that is a part of him, and accepted it, which would deny it power.

And no, I don't think the goal was to "tear down the symbols of the original trilogy". I think that that's a narrative pushed by bitter OT fanboys because it allows them to frame the films as a malicious attack on the franchise and the "true fans", rather than simply being movies they didn't personally like. Just like how they pretend that the line "let the past die" was a mission statement for the film rather than an in-character rambling by a delusional, self-aggrandizing space incel. Luke's final stand was as beautiful a send-off for the character as I could have hoped for, and did full justice to him, in my opinion.

I disagree, mostly because it has Luke writing off a family member. If the film had established that Luke tried to save him, as opposed to murder him, with Luke having that Rocky & Tommy relationship I hypothesized, then him telling Kylo Ren that he isn't going to try and save him, because he knows now he isn't able to save him, that'd be one thing. Because the film has Luke trying to murder Ben, the film is instead saying that he was right the first time, and giving up on Kylo Ren was the right move the whole time.

Okay, dumb question, but are you familiar with weapons at all? I don't mean like the kitchen knife, I mean guns, swords, etc. Because anyone familiar with such things knows to respect them. To only use them when training with them, performing maintenance on them, or actually using them on others. The Jedi are pretty much the same way with their lightsabers, save that they also use them as a light source or to cut through things.

To consciously pull out a weapon like that shows that Luke was getting ready to murder his nephew. He wasn't just entertaining thoughts or being tempted, he was so far gone that he was committing action.

My knowledge of weapons is, I acknowledge, almost entirely second-hand- the closest I've come to weapons training is one session of stage fencing in a high school drama class, and a brief intro to some basic hand-to-hand techniques (how to break a choke hold and such) in a security guard training class.

That said, I go off of what Luke said about his thought processes at the time. Its possible Luke was lying, of course, or at least blurring the truth, but that's on you to prove if you want to make that claim. I certainly think his version has more credibility to it than Ben's (which in addition to coming from a more obvious un-credible source, is far more self-serving than Luke's tale).

All right, first rule of weapons are, you only point them at things you're intent on killing. And only bring them out if you are going to do so. This is probably why, in Luke's false version of events, he doesn't have his lightsaber out while Kylo Ren destroys the place with his force powers. In Luke's second version, the supposed 'true version', he does have his lightsaber out, which Luke is ashamed of. He was lying about the fact to Rey that he WAS going to murder to Ben initially. Unless of course, the second version he told was also a lie.

That's my problem, he was already there, and only stopped because he had a Telltale Heart moment, and saw the eyes of his murder victim. If you consider the main character of the Telltale Heart a natural outgrowth of Luke Skywalker's character from the OT, then the film's backstory is solid. If you don't, you might have the same problems I do.

I know jack about Telltale Heart, so the reference is flying clear over my head here.

Edgar Allen Poe short story. I'm really surprised you're unfamiliar with it. Crazy guy hates the old man he lives with. While he acknowledges that the man is kind, he hates the man's 'vulture eye', and plans on murdering him for it. He can't bring himself to do it because when the guy's asleep, he just sees a kind old man, and not the 'vulture eye'. It's only when he accidentally wakes the old man up that he kills the guy.

While we're agreeing that Luke probably didn't plot out to go into the hut and murder Luke, he did decide to murder him with his lightsaber, and was only stopped when instead of seeing an evil Sith, he saw a young boy. Like the narrator of the Telltale Heart, he was only stopped from his own psychopathy because he didn't see the evil that he supposedly saw. Unlike the Telltale Heart, that's because they have force powers and Ben fought back.

Point being, it should be really out of character that Luke is resonating with an Edgar Allen Poe character in regards to murder rather than Yoda and approaching with trying to help him.

Except that Luke had had decades to build up who he was. Except that the dark side isn't like heroin, and is more of dealing with your own demons, for they will come at your worst moments. And even taking your ridiculous heroin analogy, should we have seen Yoda occasionally considering murdering some younglings in the PT, because he's had students turn against him in the past? Or has he outgrown those failures and became better because of it, because he's since reflected on it and knows why that part is in him.

Luke should have dealt with that anger a long time ago. Not become on the verge of relapse when he sees something that scares him. And Luke in the OT never considered murdering people, that was never who he was. He fought in anger at times, but he also should have had context from then on of who he could and should be.

Yoda, to my knowledge, never lashed out at a close relative in anger. Luke did. Yoda also has had 900 years, mostly in peace time, to master Jedi teachings. Luke has had a few decades, much of it during a period of horrific galactic war.

And no, heroin is not a perfect analogy for the Force- nothing in the real world is. But there are parallels. The addictive nature of the Dark Side is pretty well-established, as is the effect of using it on the psychological stability of the user.

Yoda, as shown in the video above, showed us that the Dark Side is with them, but can be mastered through accepting that it's there, denying it's power. Luke, when confronted with the Dark Side, quickly turned away. And while he was in war, he did have decades of supposed peace to learn the force after the Battle of Jakku. He still had over a decade to master himself and learning the force. Even before that, during the fight with the Empire, years after Endor, he was still peaceful and tranquil, only fighting when he didn't have a choice, as he did with attacking stormtroopers, but engaged in peaceful conduct and diplomacy when he could, as he did with Del Meeko. This is why I make comparison to Vietnam veterans, and John Rambo. Luke is clearly not on a hair trigger, and is instead seemingly at peace, and okay with who he is, and where he is.

Seems like he was doing all right. Not constantly being tempted by the Dark Side like a former addict struggling with addiction, or a veteran struggling with their service in a war. The Last Jedi is the odd man out here, not the rest of the saga.

State of mind, sure. Actually pulling out his weapon? Is he that broken?

Evidently, yes. The question is whether you believe that's a plausible road for Luke to go down. I think it is.

Its hard to watch a beloved legend fall short. I get why it bothers people on a purely emotional level. But I don't think its implausible or contradicting prior canon, and the film ultimately allows Luke to learn from and rise above his failures, so I do not see it as a destruction of his character (note that I am a huge Luke fan, was long before TLJ, and I would not give them a pass on it if I felt that the film had ruined Luke, any more than I gave GoT a pass for character-assassinating Daenerys).

I guess that's your opinion, but as we see with other points in the new canon, including the OT, Luke is someone who only acts when actually already in battle. As opposed to murdering someone in their sleep.

A man? No. A monk who believes life is sacred, has spent not only years, but decades learning who and what he is, and growing into something better by adhering to the Jedi Code, and is also a generally compassionate man that values his family and has some sort of relevance in his life, yeah, I'd kind of wonder about his character if murder is so natural to him that he brings out a deadly weapon to kill his sleeping nephew, only to be stopped by the look of his nephew's eyes. I'd seriously wonder what happened to him in Nam. And why Leia and Han ever trusted their kid to him in the first place.

You make it sound like he just decided to commit murder on a whim for no reason. As opposed to, you know, seeing Ben's thoughts/a vision showing that Ben was going to go on a murderous rampage and kill everyone he loved.

How many people have talked about going back in time to kill baby Hitler? Well, here's Luke standing over baby Hitler's crib, except Hitler is a grown man who's already dabbling with darkness, and has space wizard powers, and Luke's students are going to be the first victims when everything goes to hell, followed by the rest of his family. And all he has to do is strike first. Is it really so hard to believe that even a good man would be tempted?

Problem is, Kylo Ren/Ben Solo isn't the reincarnation of Palpatine/Hitler. He's as you said, an incel, who needs to either be whacked about the head a good dozen times, spanked by Leia for being a very naughty boy, and/or confronted by Luke and given some lessons about how the force actually works, and who his grandfather really was, and why he should open up about what is bothering him.

This is what the Dark Side does- it shows you what you fear, and offers you a way out if you give into fear and rage and lash out. But its a trap, like all deals with the devil, and tends to lead to the very outcome you hoped to avoid. It did it to Anakin with Padme, it did it to Luke at Endor, and it did it to Luke again when he stood over Ben with his lightsaber in his hand. Luke, to his credit, stopped at the brink (twice), while his father jumped headlong over the edge. But the temptation is there. Even for a Master. Why do you think the Jedi were so damn scared of the Dark Side that they tried to cut off all normal emotions out of fear that it would corrupt them (which, ironically, means that they were giving in to fear and lashing out as a consequence- and sure enough, it lead to their destruction)?

And as we see with Luke, as we see with Yoda, it's your own personal demons that are giving it that power. If you've long ago learned to live with them, you can master them, and deny them. Being unwilling to even confront the dark side at all is what lead to their blindness regarding it, and that's why so many fell. That, and those who saw the Republic was dying and turned because they went crazy. This is again why I bring up Luke Skywalker becoming Rambo. it makes more sense in tone in The Last Jedi than someone from the OT who learned to be someone following a philosophy of peace, love, and understanding.

[FaxModem1]

You remember how Vader was fighting him too, right? Or how Vader was goading him during the fight, right? Or how Palpatine and Vader were stressing that they would turn/kill everyone Luke knew, including his recently discovered sister? As opposed to seeing horrifying visions of the future while the person is sleeping and at worst, drooling on their pillow. This is at the same time that Luke is constantly trying to talk Vader down and redeem him. We don't know if Luke even tried to do the same thing for Ben. You may see this as splitting hairs, but I see it as a vast chasm between freaking out that your nephew has homicidal tendencies, and being ready to knife him right then and there. That you see no difference between them is where we disagree.

So you concede that Luke is easily goaded when the right buttons are pushed. Cool.

Do you concede that Luke also walked away from that, and had decades to master his feelings over such things?

But to address the rest of this, Luke tried and then he failed. It turns out being a wizard teacher and having galaxy spanning responsibilities is really different to his life before, and I don't think Luke has a degree in wizard education, maybe not even a diploma. He thought he could pass on his skills and such... and met a challenge so fucked up that he freaked out and pulled his weapon out, relenting a moment later.

No, I get that. I'm just surprised it got to that level. How many Deans of Universities, teachers, sheriffs, and Elected officials start getting out their pistols when surprised by the amount of stress they're facing?

Why are you surprised it got to that level? Back when I taught at university, the worst thing one of my students could do with the information I was imparting was write bad essays. At space wizard school, the stakes are higher. Maybe there should have been some ethicists on hand to help with ideas of power.[/quote]

Mostly because we don't see Jedi killing padawans that are drifting to the Dark Side in the PT, or in the Disney EU. They certainly didn't seem to with Anakin, for instance. Maybe Leia and Han should have checked Luke's wizard school basement if he thought that was the acceptable response for people not measuring up before sending their son Ben there.

The problem is, we don't really have enough context here to really justify this, considering Luke, in previous films, was portrayed as a decent guy who wanted to help people and save the galaxy. Luke wasn't some guy in Aunt Beru's basement, torturing small animals and droids for pleasure and suddenly flipped out when he was in a position of power and had opportunity over a younger family member. Unless his killing of womp rats in his T-16 is supposed to be indications of Luke's prior psychotic behavior, as opposed to a country bumpkin shooting at pest animals that bother his farm. Unless you're saying that most people are capable of murdering their nephews when pressed by disturbing news about them?

Hell, if you were in a room with a sleeping relative, and found their journal of crazy, would you immediately go for the kitchen knife? Or would you maybe try and get him some help? We have no context of Luke doing the latter, which seems so out of character for him.

"I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd see it at moments during his training. But then I looked inside... and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death... and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct... I thought I could stop it."

That's way more than a "journal of crazy." Stop being dishonest, it's fucking tiring. He saw Ben fucking up everything, much like Vader threatened to do. Luke's lived through that before, and evidently didn't like the idea of it happening again. Like a split second trolley problem.

He had was a vision, and he didn't talk to Ben about it, and he got out his sword after being disturbed by his vision. Again, we have no context of Luke talking to Ben about this, just deciding, "Whelp, this kid's gotta go."

Murder was the choice, and while Luke acknowledges it as the wrong choice, this seems very out of step with someone who knows that it's better to steer people back to the right path. And again, this wasn't a split second, this was him hovering over his nephew with a readied weapon. Now who's being dishonest?

[Gandalf]

Do you concede that Luke also walked away from that, and had decades to master his feelings over such things?

Of course. Doesn't mean that he succeeded.

Mostly because we don't see Jedi killing padawans that are drifting to the Dark Side in the PT, or in the Disney EU. They certainly didn't seem to with Anakin, for instance. Maybe Leia and Han should have checked Luke's wizard school basement if he thought that was the acceptable response for people not measuring up before sending their son Ben there.

Comparing Luke to PT era Jedi is disingenuous. They have thousands of years of institutional knowledge behind them. But you are right, more people should have asked if Luke was in any way ready to pass on his space wizard skills in a school setting. Maybe that sort of hubristic imitation of legend should have been a theme of the piece?

He had was a vision, and he didn't talk to Ben about it, and he got out his sword after being disturbed by his vision. Again, we have no context of Luke talking to Ben about this, just deciding, "Whelp, this kid's gotta go."

Murder was the choice, and while Luke acknowledges it as the wrong choice, this seems very out of step with someone who knows that it's better to steer people back to the right path. And again, this wasn't a split second, this was him hovering over his nephew with a readied weapon. Now who's being dishonest?

What makes you say that it wasn't a split second? Luke's flashback says that it was "the briefest moment of pure instinct," which implies that once he had a moment to come to his senses, he decided against killing Ben. Maybe the Force was guiding him to kill Ben?

[ray245]

Comparing Luke to PT era Jedi is disingenuous. They have thousands of years of institutional knowledge behind them. But you are right, more people should have asked if Luke was in any way ready to pass on his space wizard skills in a school setting. Maybe that sort of hubristic imitation of legend should have been a theme of the piece?

Realistically no. But SW is more about myth-making than an accurate reflection of the real world. A underlying message from Ep 1-6 is the idea that the old ways were flawed and it's up to a new generation to reshape and remade the old order into a new better order.

The writers of the sequels wanted to deconstruct the myth of Luke Skywalker, but I think this is an inherently problematic approach towards storytelling in Star Wars.

A narrative about a hero transcending from an average farmboy unable to find peace with himself and an implication that the new generation can grow and learn from the mistakes of the past is a very compelling narrative. By deconstructing Luke's story, it undermines Rey's journey and her own myth-making.

So if Luke the Jedi can fail to build a proper Jedi Order, what are the odds of Rey doing better than Luke?

[Gandalf]

Perhaps Rey will start something better than the Jedi Order, and better sorted to the challenges of the day?

[ray245]

Perhaps Rey will start something better than the Jedi Order, and better sorted to the challenges of the day?

Why? Because if Luke can fail, why can't Rey fail in her rebuilding the order as well? The illusion of progress and betterment of the future has been destroyed by episode 7 and 8.

[The Romulan Republic]

I do think, and I've noted before, that TLJ would have benefited from more flashbacks showing what happened between the trilogies. Or, if they don't want to fill the whole movie with that, it would be great to see some of Luke's academy in a book or TV series.

One thing that's very important to me is that Luke's order (and any new order created by Rey) do not reject emotional attachment or love. The evolution of the Jedi from imposed cold detachment out of fear, to accepting families and attachment, and Luke ultimately making that a strength instead of a weakness, is hugely important to me. I do worry that the ST has undermined that somewhat with Kylo's family issues leading to his fall, but its ambiguous enough that they could still take it in the right direction.

God damn it, I don't normally go for pushing ships, but I want IX to have a flashback scene showing Luke getting together with Mara Jade (if Rey turns out to be a Skywalker after all, it would be easy to introduce Mara as her mother), and for it to end with Finn and Rey going off to make Jedi babies together (the latter, being a black man and a white woman, would be a perfect fuck you to the Alt. Reich troll crowd).

Flashbacks are pointless because Luke's order was wiped out before Ep 7. Luke's order is even less effective than the old Jedi Order, so any positive depiction of the Luke's Order could be seen as an validation of the Old Jedi Order's principles and ideology.

All of Luke's surviving students joined Kylo Ren and fell to the dark side. So if Luke's order is depicted as being more accepting of attachment or love, it will create a subtext that love makes it even easier from one to fall to the dark side.

That Luke's order failed while embracing attachments does not mean that it failed because it embraced attachments, any more than Anakin turning to save Padme proves that the Old Republic Jedi were right about love being bad. Correlation does not equal causation, and some people being unable to have a healthy relationship does not mean that relationships are bad. I think that you could create a better narrative out of it, depending on the direction IX takes, but I also am skeptical that Abrams is the best man for the job.

What I would do is something like this:

-Show more of what happened with Luke's order. Show how Kylo was corrupted- show that it was not because of attachment, but because he rejected those attachments due to his insecurities and resentments. Maybe even show that separating him from his family to train with Luke, while being constantly measured against his famous relations, inadvertently made his isolation and insecurity worse.

-Confirm that Luke was in a relationship with Mara. If Rey is a Skywalker, have her be their daughter. Show that the product of their love is what will ultimately save the galaxy.

-Have the attachment between Rey and Finn be key to the final victory, while Kylo dies isolated and alone.

-Have Rey build a new order that embraces healthy emotional attachments.

[The Romulan Republic]

Edit: Above all, and especially if they stick with Rey being "no one", show Rey creating her own identity, her own community and family (not just in a hereditary sense, but in terms of creating a new Jedi Order). This should be the end point of her journey. From someone with deep uncertainty and insecurity about her place in the universe and lack of a family, to pursuing various surrogate families who let her down, to nearly despair- then rejecting the Dark Side and Ben, rejecting despair, and learning to stand on her own, before finally building her own identity and community.

[ray245]

Edit: Above all, and especially if they stick with Rey being "no one", show Rey creating her own identity, her own community and family (not just in a hereditary sense, but in terms of creating a new Jedi Order). This should be the end point of her journey. From someone with deep uncertainty and insecurity about her place in the universe and lack of a family, to pursuing various surrogate families who let her down, to nearly despair- then rejecting the Dark Side and Ben, rejecting despair, and learning to stand on her own, before finally building her own identity and community.

Except we don't really see Rey forming any bonds to the new cast because she spent most of her time away from them for most of ep 8. The only person she bonded with was Kylo Ren.

Rey is more of a prequel era Jedi, someone who can be emotionally detached than someone who is more of a Luke in embracing family as part of his Jedi ethos.

[The Romulan Republic]

Edit: Above all, and especially if they stick with Rey being "no one", show Rey creating her own identity, her own community and family (not just in a hereditary sense, but in terms of creating a new Jedi Order). This should be the end point of her journey. From someone with deep uncertainty and insecurity about her place in the universe and lack of a family, to pursuing various surrogate families who let her down, to nearly despair- then rejecting the Dark Side and Ben, rejecting despair, and learning to stand on her own, before finally building her own identity and community.

Except we don't really see Rey forming any bonds to the new cast because she spent most of her time away from them for most of ep 8. The only person she bonded with was Kylo Ren.

Finn in Episode VII, and they reunited at the end of TLJ, and its very clear that they both retain affection for the other. Also, Rey spends most of TLJ in Chewie's company. But more importantly, in the semi-hypothetical progression that I outlined above, Rey's story in TLJ is mainly about Rey coming to terms with the fact that she has no family, no special identity- learning to accept that and stand on her own. I don't think that makes her an ideal Prequel-era Jedi, who does not love or feel attachment- that realization is clearly depicted as a painful emotional blow. But it does not destroy her. Its not because she doesn't love, or thinks love is wrong. But in order to have healthy attachments, you have to break free of unhealthy/abusive ones (ie Anakin for Padme). So TLJ is about her accepting her past, refusing to let it define her present, so that she can then build her own future.

There is no reason the outline I describe could not be completed on the foundation of TFA and TLJ. It may not be, but if so, that will be because ROS did not follow that route.

Rey is more of a prequel era Jedi, someone who can be emotionally detached than someone who is more of a Luke in embracing family as part of his Jedi ethos.

See above. You could certainly take Rey that route from TLJ's ending, but you could also still take her a different way- and if they choose to go with a detached, unemotional Rey, I think that would be a failure, and would probably sour my feelings on IX, and even the whole ST.

I don't think Rey as she is currently depicted is unemotional, though. Far from it, she visibly channels her emotions, including ones typically associated with the Dark Side (anger) in TFA and TLJ (something Kylo points out, even). Yet she does not fall. In keeping with my theorizing above, I would suggest that this is primarily because she does not despair- she does not allow her fears to break her, and overwhelm her ideals. It is also why one of my personal theories is that Rey would have been able to master Vaapad, which skirted the edge of the Dark Side, were there anyone left alive to teach her.

To me, part of her strength is that she's capable of harnessing her emotions without letting them control her (what lead to Anakin's failure as a Chosen One)- if anything, that makes her potentially a model Jedi, a synthesis of the strongest elements of both the Old and New Jedi.

Of course, much of this is built on interpretation, extrapolation, and supposition. Rey still has potential to be a very interesting character- but Abrams could easily squander it.

[ray245]

Finn in Episode VII, and they reunited at the end of TLJ, and its very clear that they both retain affection for the other. Also, Rey spends most of TLJ in Chewie's company. But more importantly, in the semi-hypothetical progression that I outlined above, Rey's story in TLJ is mainly about Rey coming to terms with the fact that she has no family, no special identity- learning to accept that and stand on her own. I don't think that makes her an ideal Prequel-era Jedi, who does not love or feel attachment- that realization is clearly depicted as a painful emotional blow. But it does not destroy her. Its not because she doesn't love, or thinks love is wrong. But in order to have healthy attachments, you have to break free of unhealthy/abusive ones (ie Anakin for Padme). So TLJ is about her accepting her past, refusing to let it define her present, so that she can then build her own future.

There is no reason the outline I describe could not be completed on the foundation of TFA and TLJ. It may not be, but if so, that will be because ROS did not follow that route.

I think Finn and Rey are more friends than potential lovers. It's too late for a relationship to develop in Ep 9 as it will feel rushed. Rey does feel a sense of attachment, but her journey in Ep 8 is about letting go of that attachment ( namely to her parents).

See above. You could certainly take Rey that route from TLJ's ending, but you could also still take her a different way- and if they choose to go with a detached, unemotional Rey, I think that would be a failure, and would probably sour my feelings on IX, and even the whole ST.

I don't think Rey as she is currently depicted is unemotional, though. Far from it, she visibly channels her emotions, including ones typically associated with the Dark Side (anger) in TFA and TLJ (something Kylo points out, even). Yet she does not fall. In keeping with my theorizing above, I would suggest that this is primarily because she does not despair- she does not allow her fears to break her, and overwhelm her ideals. It is also why one of my personal theories is that Rey would have been able to master Vaapad, which skirted the edge of the Dark Side, were there anyone left alive to teach her.

To me, part of her strength is that she's capable of harnessing her emotions without letting them control her (what lead to Anakin's failure as a Chosen One)- if anything, that makes her potentially a model Jedi, a synthesis of the strongest elements of both the Old and New Jedi.

Of course, much of this is built on interpretation, extrapolation, and supposition. Rey still has potential to be a very interesting character- but Abrams could easily squander it.

Rey isn't unemotional. I'm saying she is not someone who really develop a deep sense of love to people around her in the two movies. Ep 7 and 8 barely gave her sufficient time to bond with characters that are still alive by the end of the movie. She bonded with Han in Ep 7, he ends up dead. She sorta had some bond or at the least spent most of her time in Ep 8 with Luke. Luke ends up dead.

The problem is Rey is she is a character that does whatever the writers wanted from her because I don't think they have a clear personality for Rey. None of the writers in the sequel era has any real sense of foresight on what kind of conclusion do they want from the sequel trilogy and what kind Jedi philosophy they want to build upon.

Lucas had a decent idea, with his movies from Ep 1-6. The same cannot be said about the Sequel era.

Rey is just a cool action hero that does cool stuff, dictated by the "rule of cool".