Rise of Skywalker news.

[FaxModem1]

I think you're misunderstanding what he means by "Failure is the only option." From what we see, the heroes are to blame for why what's left of the Resistance can fit into the equivalent of a Uhaul, and mostly because of preventable mistakes that they could have avoided.

One key example would be that if Finn and Rose had just parked correctly, they would have been fine, as they wouldn't have been chased around by casino security and locked up, and they wouldn't have had to hire their cellmate instead of the guy they came to the planet to get.

Same with lack Poe's idiotic lack of Commsec, Holdo's needless sacrifice of the flotilla, Holdo not briefing everyone on the plan, no one but Poe calling anyone, Poe only calling Maz instead of anyone else in the New Republic, etc.

This all stacks up into 'Failure being the only option', namely because they're all Too Dumb to Live. As Red Letter Media pointed out, we'd accept such incompetence in a farce or comedy, but in an action movie or drama, it's just hard to believe.

Or, as RLM put it, I hired Rian Johnson to mow my lawn, and he put in several pounds of fertilizer to make the grass three feet tall because it 'subverts expectations '.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think you're misunderstanding what he means by "Failure is the only option." From what we see, the heroes are to blame for why what's left of the Resistance can fit into the equivalent of a Uhaul, and mostly because of preventable mistakes that they could have avoided.

One key example would be that if Finn and Rose had just parked correctly, they would have been fine, as they wouldn't have been chased around by casino security and locked up, and they wouldn't have had to hire their cellmate instead of the guy they came to the planet to get.

Same with lack Poe's idiotic lack of Commsec, Holdo's needless sacrifice of the flotilla, Holdo not briefing everyone on the plan, no one but Poe calling anyone, Poe only calling Maz instead of anyone else in the New Republic, etc.

This all stacks up into 'Failure being the only option', namely because they're all Too Dumb to Live. As Red Letter Media pointed out, we'd accept such incompetence in a farce or comedy, but in an action movie or drama, it's just hard to believe.

Or, as RLM put it, I hired Rian Johnson to mow my lawn, and he put in several pounds of fertilizer to make the grass three feet tall because it 'subverts expectations '.

Red Letter Media's opinion means less than nothing to me. He's some random guy who got famous by telling bitter OT fanboys what they wanted to hear, nothing more.

Beyond that, I would say: Look at any war in history. People, even otherwise smart people, can make the most astounding mistakes. There seems to be this weird idea in internet nerd culture that a movie sucks if its characters aren't all tactical computers programmed for maximum competency. People make mistakes. Frightened people under immense pressure make more and bigger mistakes. If those mistakes fit the character and setting, I don't have a problem with that. Poe wanting to go charging in guns blazing fits the character. Poe lashing out because he's terrified makes sense given the circumstances. Leia (remember, its likely she, not Holdo, who originated at least part of the Craite evacuation plan) being unwilling to sacrifice any more people, even at the cost of her ships, fits her characters as someone who has spent their entire life losing too damn much, and just lost her lover at her son's hand. Holdo not trusting or liking the insubordinate upstart who just got a bunch of her comrades killed makes sense. Luke hiding out of shame and fear after his failure makes sense. Luke (a man who has been tempted by darkness before) having a moment of weakness when faced with the possibility of his nephew murdering everyone he loves and is responsible for makes sense. Rey being suckered by Kylo and Snoke because she is desperate to belong after a lifetime of being an orphan is believable. These may or may not be right choices, and the film could have gone in other directions, but they are believable choices, if you see the characters as people rather than as paragons.

This is not bad writing: this is fallible characters having human flaws.

I'll grant that Poe being able to call Maz but the fleet not sending out a general call for help is a plot hole. I'd fill it by postulating that it was a short-range transmitter and Maz happened to be nearby, while acknowledging that such an explanation probably should have been stated in the film.

[FaxModem1]

There's an unwillingness to believe in such errors in serious films because the films want us to take them seriously. A couple of idiots getting all of their allies killed because they were unwilling to observe local parking ordinances doesn't make them less than perfect, it makes them zany characters who should be in a comedy.

[The Romulan Republic]

There's an unwillingness to believe in such errors in serious films because the films want us to take them seriously. A couple of idiots getting all of their allies killed because they were unwilling to observe local parking ordinances doesn't make them less than perfect, it makes them zany characters who should be in a comedy.

Would you call the US Civil War a zany comedy?

Because this is a war where General McClellan repeatedly let the Confederacy escape destruction by delaying, losing his nerve, or insisting that he was vastly outnumbered, despite the fact that he really wasn't. Keep in mind that McClellan graduated second in his class at West Point, and though rightly sneered at as a field commander by posterity, is recognized for his organizational brilliance and was touted at the time as "the Young Napoleon".

Or what about General Grant, a man who as President fought hard for civil rights, including for Jews, and is not otherwise known for anti-Semitic acts, yet during the war issues General Order No. 11, expelling all Jews from the area under his command until Lincoln revoked it? Was that "out of character"? Or the fact that Grant, an experienced general who exhibited tactical and strategic cunning in numerous other engagements, threw thousands of lives away on a botched attack at the Battle of the Crater?

Or how about General Lee, a man widely-regarded as a brilliant tactician, ordering such a block-headed maneuver as Pickett's Charge?

And those are just a few well-known examples, from one historical war.

[FaxModem1]

And there's a reason we hold a higher standard to characters we see on film. Because you're justifying the laziness of the writers via actual history. Imagine if an episode of say, Hannibal, was solved not because we were watching a great mind figure out another great mind, but because the killer left his wallet at the scene of the crime. It's realistic, because shit like that happens, but we hold stories to a slightly higher standard than 'shit happens'.

[The Romulan Republic]

And there's a reason we hold a higher standard to characters we see on film. Because you're justifying the laziness of the writers via actual history. Imagine if an episode of say, Hannibal, was solved not because we were watching a great mind figure out another great mind, but because the killer left his wallet at the scene of the crime. It's realistic, because shit like that happens, but we hold stories to a slightly higher standard than 'shit happens'.

I think you do Rian Johnson an injustice when you call his work the product of laziness. His choices may be controversial, but he is very clearly someone who puts a lot of thought into his work.

Again, and this is my problem with PT and ST bashers in general, you seem unable or unwilling to differentiate between "film I did not personally like" and "objectively bad movie, made by bad/incompetent people who didn't care about/were trying to undermine the franchise". An attitude which, to be frank, I find arrogant and entitled.

If more fans were able and willing to just say "I personally did not like this movie, because it wasn't what I expected/wanted, and here's what I would have preferred", I'd have fewer problems with them. No one is obliged to like what I like, obviously. But no, it always has to be that its a Bad Movie, and it always has to turn into attacks on the film makers.

[Gandalf]

If more fans were able and willing to just say "I personally did not like this movie, because it wasn't what I expected/wanted, and here's what I would have preferred", I'd have fewer problems with them. No one is obliged to like what I like, obviously. But no, it always has to be that its a Bad Movie, and it always has to turn into attacks on the film makers.

I guess it's the same issue that the prequels had, in that it was going against fan held canons. The prequels largely just messed with anticipated origin stories and others just alluded to, but the sequels messed with fates of beloved characters. It's why people cried "character assassination!" when it was revealed that Luke wasn't space wizard extraordinaire like he was in the books.

[Darth Yan]

In the show Nightfall Mark Hamil plays Talus, the old hardass templar. If Luke was like Talus (gruff cynical but still had the heart) I think people wouldn't have been as bothered.

I did not like Last Jedi but that's all me. I still condemn the absolute bullshit that incels throw at the cast

[FaxModem1]

And there's a reason we hold a higher standard to characters we see on film. Because you're justifying the laziness of the writers via actual history. Imagine if an episode of say, Hannibal, was solved not because we were watching a great mind figure out another great mind, but because the killer left his wallet at the scene of the crime. It's realistic, because shit like that happens, but we hold stories to a slightly higher standard than 'shit happens'.

I think you do Rian Johnson an injustice when you call his work the product of laziness. His choices may be controversial, but he is very clearly someone who puts a lot of thought into his work.

Again, and this is my problem with PT and ST bashers in general, you seem unable or unwilling to differentiate between "film I did not personally like" and "objectively bad movie, made by bad/incompetent people who didn't care about/were trying to undermine the franchise". An attitude which, to be frank, I find arrogant and entitled.

If more fans were able and willing to just say "I personally did not like this movie, because it wasn't what I expected/wanted, and here's what I would have preferred", I'd have fewer problems with them. No one is obliged to like what I like, obviously. But no, it always has to be that its a Bad Movie, and it always has to turn into attacks on the film makers.

Answer me this, would Return of the Jedi have been better if all of our heroes going into Jabba's palace was because they were all fuckups and they didn't have any plans in place? Because sometimes the lone hero walking in like they're in a western would, in reality, lead to them getting captured or shot. Wouldn't that be better storywise, and subvert expectations? Wouldn't that really deconstruct the characters? Or would it be better to show that the heroes weren't a bunch of fuckups three seconds away from getting killed if they weren't unnaturally lucky/had the will of the force?

Or, as intended, it showed that the heroes were strong enough to take on enemies, and knew what they were doing, even when at the moment, they didn't, and were seeming to have it all together. We do occasionally see the main characters screw up, and that gives us laughs, such as Han stepping on a twig when he's sneaking up on a guy, but that's an in-the-moment screwup, not a "Boy is that guy an idiot for even trying to do this that way."

Storywise, we should always be following the most important players of the conflict. This includes the people who are affecting the story, and why they are doing so. Shits happens is problematic, because it means that our heroes actions are unimportant at best, and a blight on their side's goals at worst. It's unsatisfying to have, "Our protagonists are all morons, and if it weren't for last minute bailing out by other characters, they'd all be dead." It's okay to have things saved by outside forces, if it feels like they tried anyway, and failed due to forces beyond their control.

Fiction is allowed to be a little divorced from reality in that respect, especially when our characters are supposed to be heroic, and looked up to. The recently released Netflix show Another Life has been wildly disliked online for the total incompetence of the main characters. The ship is supposed to be crewed by a bunch of specialists who are traveling to make first contact with aliens. The show establishes that the crew are so incompetent that the medic is in a state of utter panic when someone has a seizure, with her crying that she "Doesn't know what to do". In the film Prometheus, a crew made up of supposedly top of the line scientists, we have an animal expert who decides to play with an alien creature as if it was a puppy, getting himself killed. We also have a mapmaker who gets himself lost after charting a map on how to get around the place. But hey, shit happens, right? Sometimes people are just idiots. That's just applying the realism of how people operate to television and film, though, right?

Or, is this idiocy necessary to the plot because if the people in said situation acted like professionals, or at least better than horror movie high school students, the plot wouldn't happen? That's what makes it lazy writing.The only way to justify something like the Resistance's actions in the film is that they're so desperate for anyone to join that they are only days away from a mutiny anyway because they're so full of misfits, incompetents, and people are only leading because they have clout with the leadership for whatever reason. If that's the story they want to tell, fine. But that doesn't make them the heroes, that makes them the protagonists, and we can certainly judge them for when they act less than professional about what they're supposed to be professionals at.

As a final example, can you imagine if, in a James Bond film, James Bond couldn't get to his contact because he was stuck at the airport because he was being questioned at Customs because he had fruit in his luggage? Shit happens, and that sort of thing happens in reality, but we'd also expect someone who has that level of training to be better than that when it comes to saving the UK from whatever bad guy they're about to face. But it's necessary to the plot because he needs someone to bail him out, or for him to be delayed, we see it as bad writing. Same case with Finn and Rose deciding that parking in a parking lot is for losers and they're just going to leave their ship on a random beach on casino planet.

[FaxModem1]

If more fans were able and willing to just say "I personally did not like this movie, because it wasn't what I expected/wanted, and here's what I would have preferred", I'd have fewer problems with them. No one is obliged to like what I like, obviously. But no, it always has to be that its a Bad Movie, and it always has to turn into attacks on the film makers.

I guess it's the same issue that the prequels had, in that it was going against fan held canons. The prequels largely just messed with anticipated origin stories and others just alluded to, but the sequels messed with fates of beloved characters. It's why people cried "character assassination!" when it was revealed that Luke wasn't space wizard extraordinaire like he was in the books.

You know what, you're right. We should have had Indiana Jones IV have Indiana in a wheelchair from all the physical abuse over the years, locked up in an asylum due to his rants about finding the Holy Grail and the Ark of the Covenant. It would have been just as valid character growth for Indy as him still being an archaeologist treasure hunter, would have subverted with our expectations for the character, and been a logical progression of the character based on what we saw him do before./sarcasm

[The Romulan Republic]

Nice strawman there, FaxModem1.

But then, you're entire take on the ST relies heavily on twisting facts, ignoring evidence, and double-standards.

If more fans were able and willing to just say "I personally did not like this movie, because it wasn't what I expected/wanted, and here's what I would have preferred", I'd have fewer problems with them. No one is obliged to like what I like, obviously. But no, it always has to be that its a Bad Movie, and it always has to turn into attacks on the film makers.

I guess it's the same issue that the prequels had, in that it was going against fan held canons. The prequels largely just messed with anticipated origin stories and others just alluded to, but the sequels messed with fates of beloved characters. It's why people cried "character assassination!" when it was revealed that Luke wasn't space wizard extraordinaire like he was in the books.

Exactly. Fans spent decades building an idea in their head of what they wanted it to be, conflated that with how it was supposed to be, and then when it (inevitably) didn't fit their mental image, saw it as a betrayal.

Answer me this, would Return of the Jedi have been better if all of our heroes going into Jabba's palace was because they were all fuckups and they didn't have any plans in place? Because sometimes the lone hero walking in like they're in a western would, in reality, lead to them getting captured or shot. Wouldn't that be better storywise, and subvert expectations? Wouldn't that really deconstruct the characters? Or would it be better to show that the heroes weren't a bunch of fuckups three seconds away from getting killed if they weren't unnaturally lucky/had the will of the force?

Or, as intended, it showed that the heroes were strong enough to take on enemies, and knew what they were doing, even when at the moment, they didn't, and were seeming to have it all together. We do occasionally see the main characters screw up, and that gives us laughs, such as Han stepping on a twig when he's sneaking up on a guy, but that's an in-the-moment screwup, not a "Boy is that guy an idiot for even trying to do this that way."

Storywise, we should always be following the most important players of the conflict. This includes the people who are affecting the story, and why they are doing so. Shits happens is problematic, because it means that our heroes actions are unimportant at best, and a blight on their side's goals at worst. It's unsatisfying to have, "Our protagonists are all morons, and if it weren't for last minute bailing out by other characters, they'd all be dead." It's okay to have things saved by outside forces, if it feels like they tried anyway, and failed due to forces beyond their control.

Fiction is allowed to be a little divorced from reality in that respect, especially when our characters are supposed to be heroic, and looked up to. The recently released Netflix show Another Life has been wildly disliked online for the total incompetence of the main characters. The ship is supposed to be crewed by a bunch of specialists who are traveling to make first contact with aliens. The show establishes that the crew are so incompetent that the medic is in a state of utter panic when someone has a seizure, with her crying that she "Doesn't know what to do". In the film Prometheus, a crew made up of supposedly top of the line scientists, we have an animal expert who decides to play with an alien creature as if it was a puppy, getting himself killed. We also have a mapmaker who gets himself lost after charting a map on how to get around the place. But hey, shit happens, right? Sometimes people are just idiots. That's just applying the realism of how people operate to television and film, though, right?

Or, is this idiocy necessary to the plot because if the people in said situation acted like professionals, or at least better than horror movie high school students, the plot wouldn't happen? That's what makes it lazy writing.The only way to justify something like the Resistance's actions in the film is that they're so desperate for anyone to join that they are only days away from a mutiny anyway because they're so full of misfits, incompetents, and people are only leading because they have clout with the leadership for whatever reason. If that's the story they want to tell, fine. But that doesn't make them the heroes, that makes them the protagonists, and we can certainly judge them for when they act less than professional about what they're supposed to be professionals at.

As a final example, can you imagine if, in a James Bond film, James Bond couldn't get to his contact because he was stuck at the airport because he was being questioned at Customs because he had fruit in his luggage? Shit happens, and that sort of thing happens in reality, but we'd also expect someone who has that level of training to be better than that when it comes to saving the UK from whatever bad guy they're about to face. But it's necessary to the plot because he needs someone to bail him out, or for him to be delayed, we see it as bad writing. Same case with Finn and Rose deciding that parking in a parking lot is for losers and they're just going to leave their ship on a random beach on casino planet.

Ignoring that neither Finn nor Rose, as far as we know, is trained in espionage. They're an infantryman and a star ship mechanic. They were only there because they were sent without authorization by Poe (who has done intelligence work, is an experienced officer, should know better, and ultimately holds all blame for the failures of his ill-conceived rogue mission- but again, his being a dip shit is fairly in-character under the circumstances). Holding them to the same standard as James Bond in a field where Bond is trained, experienced, and the bad assest of all bad asses is ridiculous.

Funny you should mention RotJ, too: the heroes go through several plans in Jabba's palace before hitting one that works. Likewise, in A New Hope, the Rebels only win because Tarkin gets cocky. And of course there's the infamous storm trooper marksmanship. And the laughable security at the Endor bunker. And this is without getting into PT and EU examples.

Oh, and speaking of James Bond:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=zO-skQuE6Ng

In real life, I'd expect a trained spy and former naval officer to know how to perform CPR properly, and to be able to manage the professional detachment to do so even if he was performing it under those circumstances.

Obviously, there is a fine line between making heroes flawed, and making them loathsome and/or a joke. You can argue about where exactly that line is. TLJ goes further in one direction, at times, than the OT does. But I would like to point out that the TLJ heroes do have their share of successes, including:

-Holdo/Leia's plan actually does get some of the Resistance to Crait alive, despite being overwhelmingly outmatched. There is every indication it would have saved nearly all of them if not for Poe's dumbassery.

-Yoda manages to get through to Luke (its fair to ask why he didn't do so sooner, I suppose).

-Holdo takes out most of the First Order fleet with her ramming attack.

-Luke's death overcomes a seemingly-impossible situation, allows the last survivors to escape, inspires future resistance, and makes a fool of Kylo, undercutting his leadership, while potentially reestablishing the Legend of the Jedi, all while remaining true to his convictions.


As do the villains, including:

-The First Order tracks down the Resistance, and is well on its way to taking over the galaxy.

-Kylo and Snoke successfully bait Rey into a trap, which she only escapes due to Kylo turning and then luck when Holdo rams the Supremacy.

-Kylo pulls off the sole successful Dark Side apprentice betrayal in film canon, becoming the leader of the First Order.

-The First Order captures Rose and Finn, failing to execute them only due to luck when Holdo rams the Supremacy at just the right moment.

-DJ gets his pay and gets away free after betraying the heroes.

-Though he is baited by Luke, Kylo's initial reaction to him showing up is not to go down and fight the legendary master in a one on one honour duel to prove who has the biggest Force dick, but instead to order every unit he has to fire on Luke while he stays safe on his shuttle. That was a surprisingly savvy move, and another, very effective, subversion of what one might expect.

The only major villain who's consistently useless is Hux, who I fully acknowledge is the worst field commander in film level Star Wars canon, and one of the worst if not the worst even if you include the EU.

I know you will probably ignore most or all of this evidence in the future, as you have in the past. Just stating it for the record.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'll also add that, after four relentless years of "WAAAHHHH, REY IS A MARY SUE, SHE'S TOO FEMALE GOOD AT EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!" from so many fans, its really funny to now hear "TLJ sucks because the characters aren't competent enough."

[FaxModem1]

Nice strawman there, FaxModem1.

But then, you're entire take on the ST relies heavily on twisting facts, ignoring evidence, and double-standards.

Vendetta and projecting, huh?

If more fans were able and willing to just say "I personally did not like this movie, because it wasn't what I expected/wanted, and here's what I would have preferred", I'd have fewer problems with them. No one is obliged to like what I like, obviously. But no, it always has to be that its a Bad Movie, and it always has to turn into attacks on the film makers.

I guess it's the same issue that the prequels had, in that it was going against fan held canons. The prequels largely just messed with anticipated origin stories and others just alluded to, but the sequels messed with fates of beloved characters. It's why people cried "character assassination!" when it was revealed that Luke wasn't space wizard extraordinaire like he was in the books.

Exactly. Fans spent decades building an idea in their head of what they wanted it to be, conflated that with how it was supposed to be, and then when it (inevitably) didn't fit their mental image, saw it as a betrayal.

Answer me this, would Return of the Jedi have been better if all of our heroes going into Jabba's palace was because they were all fuckups and they didn't have any plans in place? Because sometimes the lone hero walking in like they're in a western would, in reality, lead to them getting captured or shot. Wouldn't that be better storywise, and subvert expectations? Wouldn't that really deconstruct the characters? Or would it be better to show that the heroes weren't a bunch of fuckups three seconds away from getting killed if they weren't unnaturally lucky/had the will of the force?

Or, as intended, it showed that the heroes were strong enough to take on enemies, and knew what they were doing, even when at the moment, they didn't, and were seeming to have it all together. We do occasionally see the main characters screw up, and that gives us laughs, such as Han stepping on a twig when he's sneaking up on a guy, but that's an in-the-moment screwup, not a "Boy is that guy an idiot for even trying to do this that way."

Storywise, we should always be following the most important players of the conflict. This includes the people who are affecting the story, and why they are doing so. Shits happens is problematic, because it means that our heroes actions are unimportant at best, and a blight on their side's goals at worst. It's unsatisfying to have, "Our protagonists are all morons, and if it weren't for last minute bailing out by other characters, they'd all be dead." It's okay to have things saved by outside forces, if it feels like they tried anyway, and failed due to forces beyond their control.

Fiction is allowed to be a little divorced from reality in that respect, especially when our characters are supposed to be heroic, and looked up to. The recently released Netflix show Another Life has been wildly disliked online for the total incompetence of the main characters. The ship is supposed to be crewed by a bunch of specialists who are traveling to make first contact with aliens. The show establishes that the crew are so incompetent that the medic is in a state of utter panic when someone has a seizure, with her crying that she "Doesn't know what to do". In the film Prometheus, a crew made up of supposedly top of the line scientists, we have an animal expert who decides to play with an alien creature as if it was a puppy, getting himself killed. We also have a mapmaker who gets himself lost after charting a map on how to get around the place. But hey, shit happens, right? Sometimes people are just idiots. That's just applying the realism of how people operate to television and film, though, right?

Or, is this idiocy necessary to the plot because if the people in said situation acted like professionals, or at least better than horror movie high school students, the plot wouldn't happen? That's what makes it lazy writing.The only way to justify something like the Resistance's actions in the film is that they're so desperate for anyone to join that they are only days away from a mutiny anyway because they're so full of misfits, incompetents, and people are only leading because they have clout with the leadership for whatever reason. If that's the story they want to tell, fine. But that doesn't make them the heroes, that makes them the protagonists, and we can certainly judge them for when they act less than professional about what they're supposed to be professionals at.

As a final example, can you imagine if, in a James Bond film, James Bond couldn't get to his contact because he was stuck at the airport because he was being questioned at Customs because he had fruit in his luggage? Shit happens, and that sort of thing happens in reality, but we'd also expect someone who has that level of training to be better than that when it comes to saving the UK from whatever bad guy they're about to face. But it's necessary to the plot because he needs someone to bail him out, or for him to be delayed, we see it as bad writing. Same case with Finn and Rose deciding that parking in a parking lot is for losers and they're just going to leave their ship on a random beach on casino planet.

Ignoring that neither Finn nor Rose, as far as we know, is trained in espionage. They're an infantryman and a star ship mechanic. They were only there because they were sent without authorization by Poe (who has done intelligence work, is an experienced officer, should know better, and ultimately holds all blame for the failures of his ill-conceived rogue mission- but again, his being a dip shit is fairly in-character under the circumstances). Holding them to the same standard as James Bond in a field where Bond is trained, experienced, and the bad assest of all bad asses is ridiculous.

Fine, can they at least park correctly? No? We know Finn isn't a pilot, but Rose can apparently pilot. Why didn't she park, at least? I assume when she learned to fly, she at least, at some point, learned to park. And like most people who are proficient in the operation of said craft, know there are designated places to park, and designated places to not park.

This would be rather like watching bank robbers having their wheelman get his car towed because he parked in a "No parking" area.

Funny you should mention RotJ, too: the heroes go through several plans in Jabba's palace before hitting one that works. Likewise, in A New Hope, the Rebels only win because Tarkin gets cocky. And of course there's the infamous storm trooper marksmanship. And the laughable security at the Endor bunker. And this is without getting into PT and EU examples.

Or was it the OT gang all getting themselves into place? As they said, Luke had a plan. As people have stated, it is a plan.

Oh, and speaking of James Bond:

*snip Casino Royale video*

In real life, I'd expect a trained spy and former naval officer to know how to perform CPR properly, and to be able to manage the professional detachment to do so even if he was performing it under those circumstances.

Yes, and there's obviously no difference between an emotionally compromised man scrambling desperately to free someone from drowning, and someone saying, "Screw it, let's hope they don't have a No towing policy."

Obviously, there is a fine line between making heroes flawed, and making them loathsome and/or a joke. You can argue about where exactly that line is. TLJ goes further in one direction, at times, than the OT does. But I would like to point out that the TLJ heroes do have their share of successes, including:

-Holdo/Leia's plan actually does get some of the Resistance to Crait alive, despite being overwhelmingly outmatched. There is every indication it would have saved nearly all of them if not for Poe's dumbassery.

Could have saved more if they had separated the fleet and gotten gas, reinforcements, allies, shelter, etc.

-Yoda manages to get through to Luke (its fair to ask why he didn't do so sooner, I suppose).

Fair enough.

-Holdo takes out most of the First Order fleet with her ramming attack.

Which makes one wonder why this has never been done before. Still, it's a valid tactic that either makes a pioneer of said technology, or it's a very dangerous trick that you can only pull off when VERY desperate. As I've said before, when Holdo wants ships destroyed, she knows how to do it. That aside, maybe she should have done that before she let the other two ships get needlessly destroyed? Especially since she was counting on the First Order to not come back and check out the habitable planets they could spot with the naked eye after the fleet was destroyed.

-Luke's death overcomes a seemingly-impossible situation, allows the last survivors to escape, inspires future resistance, and makes a fool of Kylo, undercutting his leadership, while potentially reestablishing the Legend of the Jedi, all while remaining true to his convictions.

But by being so coy about it that they lose people they could have saved by telling them, "Hey, I'm distracting your son, the Millenium Falcon is over there, get going now." to Leia. Instead, he gives her a projection of Han's dice to troll her when they disappear.

This also relies on Luke knowing that Rey is in position with the Millenium Falcon. But considering the abilities he's displaying in this film, I'm willing to give that to him. Unless that was accidental and he was hoping the First Order would surrender? Iunno.

As do the villains, including:

-The First Order tracks down the Resistance, and is well on its way to taking over the galaxy.

Yes, they do that, somehow. That does make me wonder how they pulled that off. Who talked? Or was it the hyperspace tracking technology acting already? The Empire had to scour the galaxy to find the Rebel base on Hoth, I guess probe droids are obsolete now.

-Kylo and Snoke successfully bait Rey into a trap, which she only escapes due to Kylo turning and then luck when Holdo rams the Supremacy.

Snoke baits Rey into a trap. I believe that Kylo was unaware of this until the throne room scene. That said, good on him, he's just a shade more competent than the guy with the shock stick who fought Finn in TFA.

Also, to quote a superior film:

Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.

Snark aside, Rey is trusting. I don't really have a problem with her actions in the film aside from lack of definition of who she is. It's Luke's journey as a character that I have a problem with. Rise of Skywalker seems to be focusing on Rey, I think. In the meantime, kudos Snoke, whoever you are. Aside from the fact that he did misread the situation so badly that he got killed for it. So, yeah, whoops.

-Kylo pulls off the sole successful Dark Side apprentice betrayal in film canon, becoming the leader of the First Order.

Yes, he did do that. Kudos.

-The First Order captures Rose and Finn, failing to execute them only due to luck when Holdo rams the Supremacy at just the right moment.

Yes, they caught the people who don't know how to park, and were riding on the seat of their pants. The cops eventually caught the Griswalds when they broke into Wallyworld too.

-DJ gets his pay and gets away free after betraying the heroes.

So, the seedy, untrustworthy guy that Finn and Rose wee sharing a cell with turned out to be seedy and untrustworthy? K.

-Though he is baited by Luke, Kylo's initial reaction to him showing up is not to go down and fight the legendary master in a one on one honour duel to prove who has the biggest Force dick, but instead to order every unit he has to fire on Luke while he stays safe on his shuttle. That was a surprisingly savvy move, and another, very effective, subversion of what one might expect.

Yes, and thanks to Luke's trickery, it made him look like a fool. Kudos Luke. To be fair to Kylo, superior firepower has always seemed to work before, as shown in the PT with the Jedi running from things like Droidekas and being massacred in the Geonosis coliseum. Luke just outfoxed him there.

The only major villain who's consistently useless is Hux, who I fully acknowledge is the worst field commander in film level Star Wars canon, and one of the worst if not the worst even if you include the EU.

I know you will probably ignore most or all of this evidence in the future, as you have in the past. Just stating it for the record.

Geez dude, no. If we're really doing this, I'll bring up your stance on things that needs to be corrected.

I'll make note that Holdo is incompetent at leading people, briefing others, dealing with subordinates, listening to other options, dealing with morale, and too casually okay at signing off on the deaths of people like the captain of one of her ships for no reason whatsoever. We've discussed this a lot, and you still don't recognize that being in charge means being responsible for stuff like that. You think people should fall into lockstep when they think they're in danger, even if they think their leader is going to get them all killed, even when evidence is shown that such things are happening and lives are being lost.

Poe is a hothead who needs to learn to trust his superiors, learn proper Commsec, learn to question authority correctly and/or learn to observe what's happening right in front of him(such as fueling transports), and not getting people needlessly killed because he wants to prove that he can fight the bad guys. He does the last one eventually, yay for all the people in the Falcon who survived.

Finn and Rose need to learn to not park in non-parking areas, as that alerts the fuzz, and to not trust the guy sharing your cell.

Rey needs to learn that cute guys can be jerks who murder their fathers, but that's okay, she's going somewhere on her own. Where, I haven't the faintest, but we'll see. I really do have no problem with her character aside from not us really know what's going on inside her, but hopefully ROS will fix that.

[Gandalf]

You know what, you're right. We should have had Indiana Jones IV have Indiana in a wheelchair from all the physical abuse over the years, locked up in an asylum due to his rants about finding the Holy Grail and the Ark of the Covenant. It would have been just as valid character growth for Indy as him still being an archaeologist treasure hunter, would have subverted with our expectations for the character, and been a logical progression of the character based on what we saw him do before./sarcasm

Is this a response to anything I actually posted, or are you just letting out some steam?

[The Romulan Republic]

You know what, you're right. We should have had Indiana Jones IV have Indiana in a wheelchair from all the physical abuse over the years, locked up in an asylum due to his rants about finding the Holy Grail and the Ark of the Covenant. It would have been just as valid character growth for Indy as him still being an archaeologist treasure hunter, would have subverted with our expectations for the character, and been a logical progression of the character based on what we saw him do before./sarcasm

Is this a response to anything I actually posted, or are you just letting out some steam?

No, its him being full of shit, just like he was when he just falsely accused me of vendetta for pointing out that he is engaging in double standards (like comparing the under cover skills of a mechanic and an infantry man to those of James Fucking Bond) and twisting/ignoring evidence (like downplaying or ignoring the accomplishments of characters throughout the film), again.

FaxModem, if you want me to bother to respond to your post further, then I advise you not to make false accusations again.

[FaxModem1]

You know what, you're right. We should have had Indiana Jones IV have Indiana in a wheelchair from all the physical abuse over the years, locked up in an asylum due to his rants about finding the Holy Grail and the Ark of the Covenant. It would have been just as valid character growth for Indy as him still being an archaeologist treasure hunter, would have subverted with our expectations for the character, and been a logical progression of the character based on what we saw him do before./sarcasm

Is this a response to anything I actually posted, or are you just letting out some steam?

No, its him being full of shit, just like he was when he just falsely accused me of vendetta for pointing out that he is engaging in double standards (like comparing the under cover skills of a mechanic and an infantry man to those of James Fucking Bond) and twisting/ignoring evidence (like downplaying or ignoring the accomplishments of characters throughout the film), again.

FaxModem, if you want me to bother to respond to your post further, then I advise you not to make false accusations again.

Fine, concession accepted.

[The Romulan Republic]

Is this a response to anything I actually posted, or are you just letting out some steam?

No, its him being full of shit, just like he was when he just falsely accused me of vendetta for pointing out that he is engaging in double standards (like comparing the under cover skills of a mechanic and an infantry man to those of James Fucking Bond) and twisting/ignoring evidence (like downplaying or ignoring the accomplishments of characters throughout the film), again.

FaxModem, if you want me to bother to respond to your post further, then I advise you not to make false accusations again.

Fine, concession accepted.

That was not a concession. That was "I'm not going to engage with someone who is maliciously defaming me, because I have had it up to here with that shit."

You want to do it this way? Fine. Do you have the guts to put your money where your mouth is and report me for vendetta? Or shall I report you for lying? Or you can surprise me, be a man, and apologize. Your call.

Because if what I said was vendetta, then people have committed vendetta against me probably literally hundreds of times on this board without consequence, and most of this board should probably be perm-banned.

[FaxModem1]

That was not a concession. That was "I'm not going to engage with someone who is maliciously defaming me, because I have had it up to here with that shit."

You want to do it this way? Fine. Do you have the guts to put your money where your mouth is and report me for vendetta? Or shall I report you for lying? Your call.

Because if what I said was vendetta, then people have committed vendetta against me probably literally hundreds of times on this board without consequence, and most of this board should probably be perm-banned.

Dude, you referenced here with:

Nice strawman there, FaxModem1.

But then, you're entire take on the ST relies heavily on twisting facts, ignoring evidence, and double-standards.

Which, since you're not really talking about my posts in this thread, must have to do somehow with other discussions we've had over the ST. So, if not, I apologize. But it certainly seems like you're bringing out other threads here for some reason.

[The Romulan Republic]

That was not a concession. That was "I'm not going to engage with someone who is maliciously defaming me, because I have had it up to here with that shit."

You want to do it this way? Fine. Do you have the guts to put your money where your mouth is and report me for vendetta? Or shall I report you for lying? Your call.

Because if what I said was vendetta, then people have committed vendetta against me probably literally hundreds of times on this board without consequence, and most of this board should probably be perm-banned.

Dude, you referenced here with:

Nice strawman there, FaxModem1.

But then, you're entire take on the ST relies heavily on twisting facts, ignoring evidence, and double-standards.

Which, since you're not really talking about my posts in this thread, must have to do somehow with other discussions we've had over the ST. So, if not, I apologize. But it certainly seems like you're bringing out other threads here for some reason.

If what I said was vendetta, then people engage in it against me in about every other thread I post in.

I think we both remember those other threads, but as I just noted above, I can cite examples from this thread that I feel are you ignoring evidence or holding double-standards. You may not be doing so deliberately, I'm not accusing you of lying, but its very frustrating for me when I feel like not only my arguments, but the actual on-screen events, seem to be ignored.

Anyway, apology accepted. I'll try to keep this civil if you will. I'll have a response to your last post up later tonight.

[The Romulan Republic]

Fine, can they at least park correctly? No? We know Finn isn't a pilot, but Rose can apparently pilot. Why didn't she park, at least? I assume when she learned to fly, she at least, at some point, learned to park. And like most people who are proficient in the operation of said craft, know there are designated places to park, and designated places to not park.

This would be rather like watching bank robbers having their wheelman get his car towed because he parked in a "No parking" area.

Its a clumsy mistake, sure. But its one that I can see untrained people plausibly making, especially when they're on a tight timeline. So they didn't sit down and look up and read the local traffic laws while rushing off to save their friends' lives. I can live with that.

Or was it the OT gang all getting themselves into place? As they said, Luke had a plan. As people have stated, it is a plan.

If it was, then it relied on an awful lot of luck and coincidence (or Force foresight, I suppose, but even Yoda has trouble with reliable precognition, as he told Luke in the previous film). What if Jabba had just, say, decided to kill Leia on the spot? Or not take R2 on the sail barge? Or execute Luke by firing squad?

Leia, at least, sure seemed to me like a serious rescue attempt that went wrong, thus requiring Luke to intervene directly.

Yes, and there's obviously no difference between an emotionally compromised man scrambling desperately to free someone from drowning, and someone saying, "Screw it, let's hope they don't have a No towing policy."

Of course there's a difference. Just as there's a difference between a mechanic or infantryman, and a master assassin. My point is merely to illustrate, since you used Bond as an example, that even a highly trained, experienced, and competent individual like him can fuck up things he really ought to know.

Could have saved more if they had separated the fleet and gotten gas, reinforcements, allies, shelter, etc.

Possibly. However, if Holdo did not know how the fleet was being tracked, she might have been concerned that the FO would be able to track any ships that broke off to wherever (and whoever) they were going to. In any case, it is generally considered unwise to divide your forces against a numerically-superior opponent, is it not?

It should also be noted that the Craite evacuation plan seems to have originated with Leia, before they knew they were being tracked. Leia was then seriously injured, and Holdo took command, almost immediately after arriving in the system. It may be that Holdo, on top of taking command of a decapitated fleet in the middle of a crisis and having to prove herself, didn't want to tamper with her predecessor's plan more than necessary.

I think you can make an argument for either plan, and going for one over the other is not a clear proof of gross incompetence.

Fair enough.

I mean, you expect the little green muppet to be the wisest character. That's one thing I'm glad they didn't subvert.

Which makes one wonder why this has never been done before. Still, it's a valid tactic that either makes a pioneer of said technology, or it's a very dangerous trick that you can only pull off when VERY desperate. As I've said before, when Holdo wants ships destroyed, she knows how to do it. That aside, maybe she should have done that before she let the other two ships get needlessly destroyed? Especially since she was counting on the First Order to not come back and check out the habitable planets they could spot with the naked eye after the fleet was destroyed.

It looks like the plan was to evacuate under stealth and then keep the Raadus running until its shields failed and it got blown up. Starships blowing up probably doesn't leave a lot of debris or bodies normally, so it would appear as though everyone went down with the ship. There is still the risk of Snoke or Kylo seeing through it with their Force senses, but no plan is completely fool-proof against that.

Either way, the ramming definitely goes down in the "win" column for the heroes, and a damn impressive one. In hindsight, yeah, maybe she should have rammed first, but kamikaze tactics are generally regarded as a last resort.

But by being so coy about it that they lose people they could have saved by telling them, "Hey, I'm distracting your son, the Millenium Falcon is over there, get going now." to Leia. Instead, he gives her a projection of Han's dice to troll her when they disappear.

This also relies on Luke knowing that Rey is in position with the Millenium Falcon. But considering the abilities he's displaying in this film, I'm willing to give that to him. Unless that was accidental and he was hoping the First Order would surrender? Iunno.

I don't think they actually lose anyone after Luke shows up.

Anyway, out of universe, its obviously to preserve the surprise reg. Luke's illusion trick. In-universe... well, its head canon, but plausible, but I think Leia knew from the moment Luke walked into that room that he wasn't really there. She's Force sensitive too, remember? Do you think she couldn't sense that her twin wasn't actually in the room? If I were to speculate a bit further, I'd say that Luke might not have wanted the others to realize until he had Kylo good and distracted, in case Kylo was taking a look inside any of their minds.

Ultimately, though, I feel like this is somewhat nitpicky.

Yes, they do that, somehow. That does make me wonder how they pulled that off. Who talked? Or was it the hyperspace tracking technology acting already? The Empire had to scour the galaxy to find the Rebel base on Hoth, I guess probe droids are obsolete now.

I was referring to them tracking the Raadus, but as to them finding the base...

Well, there's a lot of ways it could happen, I don't really need it explained, but I do think the film's plot would have been stronger if they had explicitly discussed the possibility of a mole in the Resistance, on this and other counts.

Snoke baits Rey into a trap. I believe that Kylo was unaware of this until the throne room scene. That said, good on him, he's just a shade more competent than the guy with the shock stick who fought Finn in TFA.

Also, to quote a superior film:

Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.

Snark aside, Rey is trusting. I don't really have a problem with her actions in the film aside from lack of definition of who she is. It's Luke's journey as a character that I have a problem with. Rise of Skywalker seems to be focusing on Rey, I think. In the meantime, kudos Snoke, whoever you are. Aside from the fact that he did misread the situation so badly that he got killed for it. So, yeah, whoops.

Eh, in that respect he's no worse than Emperor "I'm going to turn my back on the man I just blatantly tried to replace while I torture his son in front of him" Palpatine.

Kylo knew they were drawing Rey in- he just didn't know that Snoke was facilitating the bond between them. Or at least that's the impression I got.

Yes, he did do that. Kudos.

So chalk another one up for the villain wins.

Yes, they caught the people who don't know how to park, and were riding on the seat of their pants. The cops eventually caught the Griswalds when they broke into Wallyworld too.

Passing himself off as a First Order trooper is actually something Finn knows how to do. Granted, they caught him with DJ's help, but still, I'm going to count this one as an FO win.

So, the seedy, untrustworthy guy that Finn and Rose wee sharing a cell with turned out to be seedy and untrustworthy? K.

Nice downplaying of the fact that he not only betrayed them, but managed to actually negotiate a deal with the First Order and apparently escape with his money and zero consequences whatsoever.

That's definitely a bad guy win. Many a big bad has dreamed in vain of achieving as much.

Yes, and thanks to Luke's trickery, it made him look like a fool. Kudos Luke. To be fair to Kylo, superior firepower has always seemed to work before, as shown in the PT with the Jedi running from things like Droidekas and being massacred in the Geonosis coliseum. Luke just outfoxed him there.

Which makes this the best example in the film of the characters actually being smart and competent. Both Kylo and Luke act intelligently, given the circumstances. Luke just plays the game a bit better.

Geez dude, no. If we're really doing this, I'll bring up your stance on things that needs to be corrected.

I'll make note that Holdo is incompetent at leading people, briefing others, dealing with subordinates, listening to other options, dealing with morale, and too casually okay at signing off on the deaths of people like the captain of one of her ships for no reason whatsoever. We've discussed this a lot, and you still don't recognize that being in charge means being responsible for stuff like that. You think people should fall into lockstep when they think they're in danger, even if they think their leader is going to get them all killed, even when evidence is shown that such things are happening and lives are being lost.

Now who's bringing in stuff from other threads?

See, this is what I mean about you making shit up, and ignoring evidence. Holdo did not "sign off on" the captain's death. There is zero indication that him dying was an intended part of the plan, vs. him simply not having time to evacuate (although the captain going down with the ship is an old, if stupid, tradition as well). You flat-out speculate and then treat it as canon fact in order to make Holdo into a cold-blooded killer, when her only given motive throughout the film is to keep her people alive, even at the cost of her ships (which probably factors heavily into her anger at the hotshot who just got a bunch of them killed).

Nor do I think that people should always follow the leader. If I thought that I'd be shouting MAGA in real life. But given that the chaos of a mutiny will actually make it much harder to deal with the crisis, they should think real hard before taking that step. "I'm not impressed with this person after one speech" is not grounds for a mutiny. Neither is "she won't tell me a plan I have no need to know, after I just got demoted and then misrepresented my rank". And that is really the totality of Poe's grievances against her. It wasn't the plan- he accepted the same damn plan when he knew Leia was behind it. It was a knee-jerk personality conflict. When Holdo did try to fill Poe in, he started ranting about her being a traitor on the middle of the bridge. His actions were not those of a rational man. He had reasons to be irrational, its in character under the circumstances, but it doesn't change the fact that he was irrational.

We also never really see how Holdo interacted with subordinates other than Poe. The film deliberately gives us a circumscribed perspective of events prior to the mutiny as part of its misdirection. Any judgement of Holdo's performance should take that into account.

And we have indeed been over all of these points, many times. You know all my responses. You know that my position is not "You should always blindly follow the leader." I must conclude, therefore, that you are deliberately misrepresenting me.

Poe is a hothead who needs to learn to trust his superiors, learn proper Commsec, learn to question authority correctly and/or learn to observe what's happening right in front of him(such as fueling transports), and not getting people needlessly killed because he wants to prove that he can fight the bad guys. He does the last one eventually, yay for all the people in the Falcon who survived.

Finn and Rose need to learn to not park in non-parking areas, as that alerts the fuzz, and to not trust the guy sharing your cell.

Rey needs to learn that cute guys can be jerks who murder their fathers, but that's okay, she's going somewhere on her own. Where, I haven't the faintest, but we'll see. I really do have no problem with her character aside from not us really know what's going on inside her, but hopefully ROS will fix that.

I know exactly what's going on inside Rey: she grew up as an abandoned, abused child who doesn't know her family, has deep doubts about her self-worth and place in the universe, and is desperately looking to fill that void with any sense of belonging or purpose- which makes her impulsive, and prime recruitment material for manipulative scumbags. Its a character flaw, but its treated as such, and its an entirely plausible one. I didn't much like the Rey/Kylo stuff, but I've come around to accepting that it fits the characters well enough- and it culminates in Rey realizing that she can't save Kylo no matter how much she wants to, and walking away. Which is a message that I think needs to be repeated often, considering how many women and girls there are entering, or refusing to leave, abusive relationships.

Finn and Rose is covered above, for the most part, though I'll note that they didn't exactly have an abundance of options when they chose to trust DJ. But basically: two people with no training and minimal experience in espionage suck at espionage. Who'd have thought it?

Poe: Yeah, he's a dip shit. I accept it as plausibly in-character given the circumstances, and he does eventually learn the lesson.

Are there points I would have written differently? Yeah. Should the possibility of a mole in the fleet have been raised? Yeah, probably. Does Yoda's intervention raise some difficult questions about why it couldn't be done sooner (as does Holdo's ramming)? Yeah. Does the film overuse misdirection to the point where it inhibits clarity? Arguably. Is the plot an air-tight, perfect masterpiece? No.

But the notion that the characters are generally cartoonishly or implausibly incompetent, or that the choices made were simply a result of laziness by the writer/director, is in my view unfair, and I have cited numerous examples as to why I think its unfair, some of which you have conceded as valid. And I think that a lot of this stuff wouldn't get nitpicked as harshly if it wasn't a Star Wars sequel, because let's face it, most action movies (and most movies of any kind) don't have air-tight plots.

[The Romulan Republic]

Anyway, here's the new Rise of Skywalker trailer:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=D-dj_cwdVYg

Highlights:
Spoiler

-Half of its flashbacks to earlier films. They're really pushing the whole "end of the saga" thing, I guess.

-A big, colorful encampment on the desert planet.

-New female black character on the Falcon. Ten bucks says they make her Lando's daughter, even though its the most unimaginative thing they could do. I really hope they don't last-minute ship her with Finn because "They're both black, got to pair them up".

-Looks like a new female Dark Sider (who looks a lot like Rey) with a gimicky double-bladed lightsaber. Seeing speculation already that she's Rey's mother.

-C3PO with red glowing eyes. Evil 3PO?

-Shot of a bunch of Rebel fighters, a corvette, and another ship flying in formation, followed by a very brief shot of what looks like an absolutely massive First Order fleet flying in formation. I counted around 45 ships, most or all SDs, in one shot.

-Kylo and Rey dueling on a cliff, scratch that, probable Death Star wreckage, by the sea.

-A little more ominous Palpatine dialogue.

-Looks like an orbital bombardment (a big red beam striking a planetary surface).

[The Romulan Republic]

Downside... That's two trailers now where they haven't shown so much as a shot of Rose. It definitely looks like they're trying to minimize her role to pander to the same racist, misogynist mother fuckers who drove Kelly Tran off social media.

[ray245]

Downside... That's two trailers now where they haven't shown so much as a shot of Rose. It definitely looks like they're trying to minimize her role to pander to the same racist, misogynist mother fuckers who drove Kelly Tran off social media.

Are you surprised? Disney and Kennedy are creative cowards that tries too hard to appease the fanbase.

[Vympel]

You can explain all you want but you cannot explain away why the feeling of annoyance that many fans do have. I think at times you go too far in trying to defend the official narrative from criticism, and failed to understand why people felt annoyed with the depiction or writing in films and shows.

If the films are as well constructed as you think it is, they won't be facing so many criticism and feeling of annoyance from a large portion of fans.

Sure I can explain their annoyance. They didn't really consider the implications of anything that happened in TFA, walked out of the movie with their pre-existing expectations about Luke overriding everything the movie had actually said and implied, then got annoyed when TLJ came out and proceeded to caterwaul like they had been betrayed. It's a really simple issue. The only thing Abrams can be criticised for is not placing Han's dialogue about Luke nearer to the end of the movie so people would actually remember what he said. It's not rocket science.

Plenty of people walk out of a movie not remembering things that happened / what was said / properly consider the implications of the plot for the sequel. A segment of those people refuse to accept that they were wrong, and are instead 2 years later still constructing elaborate conspiracy theories and dramatic production fanfiction that there was some sort of internal coup detat.

[ray245]

You can explain all you want but you cannot explain away why the feeling of annoyance that many fans do have. I think at times you go too far in trying to defend the official narrative from criticism, and failed to understand why people felt annoyed with the depiction or writing in films and shows.

If the films are as well constructed as you think it is, they won't be facing so many criticism and feeling of annoyance from a large portion of fans.

Sure I can explain their annoyance. They didn't really consider the implications of anything that happened in TFA, walked out of the movie with their pre-existing expectations about Luke overriding everything the movie had actually said and implied, then got annoyed when TLJ came out and proceeded to caterwaul like they had been betrayed. It's a really simple issue. The only thing Abrams can be criticised for is not placing Han's dialogue about Luke nearer to the end of the movie so people would actually remember what he said. It's not rocket science.

Plenty of people walk out of a movie not remembering things that happened / what was said / properly consider the implications of the plot for the sequel. A segment of those people refuse to accept that they were wrong.

And this is where you are wrong. Filmmaking and storytelling is not merely about what is being shown on screen, but whether what's been shown on screen can be communicated effectively to an audience. A film can have all the right ticks, but if the way it present the information to the audience is ineffective, then it can be criticised for a failure to execute those story-points well.

Filmmaking is an art and not a science, and your approach towards dismissing people's issues with the movies is useless because it's not going to stop people from feeling they don't understand the story well. A good defence of a film from criticism must take into account WHY certain themes or plotlines failed to resonate with a large portion of the audience.

Instead of saying "They didn't really consider the implications of anything that happened in TFA", you need to consider WHY the audience didn't consider the implications of anything that happened in TFA. As long as your arguments failed to address it, you can harp on the same point again and again and it's not going to sound convincing to anyone.