Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

[PhoenixKnig]

Better

[RogueIce]

So I'm not sure what you're doing with your uploading, but it's not coming through. Even when I go to the link it just says "410 Gone" on the page.

Have you considered just uploading to imgur.com or something like that?

This image look correct?

It does, thank you. Some commentary:

You'd need to address the double row badges for the Army. Veers has RRRR/BBBB and the stormtrooper officer he orders to deploy troops has RR/BB. Also, when Brom Titus got demoted, he was still referred to as "Commander" but with a RR badge, which in your scheme is Ensign. While it's possible his title was being used as an honorific, IIRC he did have command over other officers, so it's unlikely. Which would indicate a RR badge has more seniority than you're giving it here.

[Darth Winter]

You'd need to address the double row badges for the Army. Veers has RRRR/BBBB and the stormtrooper officer he orders to deploy troops has RR/BB.

Doble row bage same in army, navy and administration, etc. It show level in the general imperial hierarchy. Captain of the ship have same bage, as comandant of the city. Director of State Agency equal to Admiral. It mean it is common insignia for all brunches and sevices. I think we can call it Officer Level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6.

General Veers commander of all land forces of Death Squadron (Vader personal armada led by the Executor-class Star Dreadnought Executor, supported by six smaller Imperial-class Star Destroyers). Admiral Ozzel commander of all Death Squadron. Piett and Needa - commanders of one of the ships. So we have this signification in Navy

RRRRRR
BBBBBB - Level 6 - commander of fleet or separate (not part of the fleet) squadron (like Death Squadron). Usually it Admiral or Fleet Admiral.

RRRRR
BBBBB - Level 5 - commander of squadron. Maybe assystant of fleet commnader. Usually it is Vice Admiral. Assistent of separate squadron commander is captain of flagship. Assistent of Ozzel was Piett. This explains why we do not have this insignia in movie.

RRRR
BBBB - Level 4 - commander of Division. Usually it Rear Admiral or Commodore. Commander of all Separate Squadron's land forces looks equal position to me.

RRR
BBB - Level 3 - captain of the Ship. Usually it Commander, Lt. Commander and Captain.
Offtop:
In non-English-speaking countries all this ranks named Captain. In continental Europe countries it calls Captain of the Navy, Captain of Frigate and Captain of Corvette. In Russia more simple Captain First, Second and Third rank.

RR
BB - Level 2 - first and second offciers. Chiefs of battle stations. Usually it Captain (if ship captain have rank commander) or Senior Lieutenant.

R
B - Level 1 - junior officers. Usually it is Junior Lieutenant and Ensign.

Also, when Brom Titus got demoted, he was still referred to as "Commander" but with a RR badge, which in your scheme is Ensign. While it's possible his title was being used as an honorific, IIRC he did have command over other officers, so it's unlikely. Which would indicate a RR badge has more seniority than you're giving it here.

Commander it is not necessarily rank. It coud be position. Like commander of the ship or commander of the fleet. Degraded ensign could command a salvage yard. He have only civilians on his command. No one officer exept him.

Also captain Piett rank can be Lt. Commander or Commander. Captain could mean his position - Captain of the Ship. Executor is a flagship so she's capatin could be even commodore.

[MKSheppard]

Also, ROTJ....everyone had the same damn insignia (!!!)

[Darth Winter]

I make a few changes. In new canon there is no (yet) Major of Lieutenant Generals.Brigadier General exist (look at wookiepedia). Also Colonel equal to Commodore. It mean Rear Admiral equal Brigadier General. But next rank looks to strange (Vice Admiral equal to Major General ). So i change german system (Major General, Lt General, General, Colonel General, Grand General) to french system (Brigadier General, Division General, Army Corps General, Army General).

Also I add starfighter ranks and few administration positions.

Wait constructive criticism.

[sammlego333]

Hello there, new guy here, first post, anyway, I like a lot of the ideas presented, however, a few things bother me;

First off, I do not think the 'line branch' has different insignia, different uniforms? perhaps, but that is all. I think for the 'operations branch' the closest relative (at least in the navy) would be the naval guards, who, from what I understand, were skilled; enlisted, NCOs, and low officers within the navy, who guarded positions, and ran high-importance facilities such as the Death Star.

2nd, and I forget where I heard this from, think it was Mr. Saxon himself, but the Empire almost certainly has different ranking systems under different commands, and in my opinion, we have seen 2 or 3, ANH, ESB, and RO, however RO and ANH could be one in the same, the only thing throwing this off, is 4 blue being lieutenant in ANH, vs a 4 blue rank being captain in RO.

3rd, I think starfighters were under their assigned branch similar to proposals for ISB.

4th, I have a proposal based off of previous assumptions on this thread, along with various canon sources, and have concluded an army, and navy rank system, and intend to make a rank chart. (Parentheses are assumptions made.)

Corporal Petty Officer
Sergeant Chief Petty Officer
Sergeant Senior (Master Chief Petty Officer)

2nd Lieutenant Ensign
1st Lieutenant Junior Lieutenant (could be 'sub-lieutenant')
(Captain) Senior Lieutenant (could be normal 'lieutenant')
(Major) Captain
(Lt Colonel) Lieutenant Commander
Colonel Commander

(Brig General) Commodore
(Major General) Rear Admiral
(Lieutenant General) Vice Admiral
General Admiral
(High General) Fleet Admiral
Grand General Grand Admiral

Now, for the ranks of Captain, Major, and Lt Colonel, I took a guess, because the original ranks were respectively Commandant, Commander, and Major, and I didn't like the way those ranks felt.

[Straha]

I realize that this thread has been dead for a while but this board is quiet now and it's still on the first page so I don't think this is doing too much to disturb the board?

Some thoughts:

1. Any attempt to create a consistent ranking system from the visual evidence of the movies and TV show is doomed to fail. I realize this pierces the fact/fiction barrier, but it's simply true that there was not thought put into the ranking systems of the Empire in during the movies (certainly not ANH) and that the backstory of the Empire has radically evolved over the course of SW's existence. While it's clear there has been consistency during projects there has not been consistency between projects, which makes any attempt to draw direct lines between the Movies, or the TV shows and the movies, a sisyphean effort with guaranteed Escherian outputs. If this is what we want to do it will devolve into the It's Always Sunny Pepe Silva scene. We've seen this already with some of Saxton's questionable choices re: Rank order and even ship classification.

2. The question therefore isn't to create a consistent system in Universe, but rather to explain and best understand why there is a inconsistent (sometimes to the point of incoherency) system in Universe.

3. We know in universe that immediately prior to the Clone Wars there was little to no military presence in the Republic. Stability was assumed seemingly via institutional inertia and the reputation and presence of Jedi Knights. We also know that the military force necessary to threaten the Old Republic was staggeringly small and ineffective. The Trade Federation deployed an army that was clownish, displayed no aptitude for military strategy or tactics, and its droids were incredibly poor fighters to the point of being bested by de facto amateurs on Naboo. There was never a point in the Movies where they seemed competent or threatening.

4. Tied to this, we know that a significant portion of the military (including Star Fighters) deployed to face the CIS was made up of clones, and dialogue in the movies puts that army at roughly 3 Million clones, which puts it at only one million fewer than the PLA. (I will admit to not having watched the TV series, so I don't know if they look deeper into non-clone presences in the military.) We also know that by ANH that clone presence is largely, if not completely, gone. (My theory is that Palpatine didn't want someone to Order 66 him.) Further, we know that the Imperial forces were far more numerous than the clone army and far more effective. Finally, we know that the senior commanders of the OR's military during the clone wars were the Jedi, and they effectively disappear overnight.

5. We also know that by ANH the imperial bureaucracy and government is still forming. Early in ANH they mention the abolishing of the Senate and the direct rule through governors, a system that did not exist in a similar form during the Republic. There is evidence that much of this bureaucracy effectively came out of the blue (see: Amidala's former Captain of her personal guard becoming a Moff).

6. This means that, effectively, when we first see it the entirety of the Imperial Bureaucracy and the Ranking system of the military is still incredibly young. By simply using Luke's age as a yardstick we know that at the end of its life the Empire has had 23 years to develop. Even if we were to assume that the lifespan of the average member of the Empire was equivalent to early 21st century humans, that means that nobody has truly risen through the ranks to the top, and that everything is still very much a work in progress.

Which brings me to my theory:

- The reason for the inconsistencies is because there is no consistency. The Empire will absolutely sell a myth of imperial order and bureaucracy but that should be treated with deep skepticism considering its very young age. After, at most, 19 years people are still very much in the process of creating that ranking system and figuring out where others rank in it. Because the army and fleet are expanding massively (I believe there's another thread about how the Empire casts an incredibly wide net to bring people into its ranks), and the forces are spread out across a galaxy there's little reason to believe that consistency has either been established or is necessary. Command structures in one sector could be radically different to those in the next, etc. etc.

- This would also explain why many of the assignments we see first hand seem so ad hoc. In ANH we see Tarkin, who is apparently a Civilian official, outranking generals and admirals who, in turn, view Vader as a nuisance that can be safely needled while Vader himself seems content to only directly interfere in the fighter battle (and a prior boarding party). In ESB Vader is in command of the Empire's main expeditionary fleet, everyone treats him with deep respect, and his managerial style can be best understood as "Kill the incompetents until only competent commanders remain." A deeply wasteful approach if everyone is the product of years in the academy and represents the best and brightest that the Galaxy has to offer, but not if even senior officers have been rushed up the ranks quickly. RoTJ has Jerjerrod commanding the creation of the Death Star and outranking several seemingly more senior officers by insignia.

- This would fit with real world experience. In order to get to the rank of Captain in the modern U.S. Navy it's expected that someone have at least 20 years of service. In the Imperial Navy that kind of experience is an impossibility. But a direct analogy can be found in the U.S. context in the lead-in to, and the process during, major conflict. Custer in the Civil War went from Lieutenant to Major General in four years. Eisenhower went from a Lieutenant Colonel to General of the Armies in eight years (and from Colonel to General of the Armies in just over three and a half years). Expansion shuffles ranks and moves people to the top very quickly.

- This would also explain not only why ranks are seemingly 'out of order' in some contexts versus others, but would also explain why the Emperor feels comfortable creating ad hoc overarching commands like 'Grand Admiral' and 'Grand General.' When there is a very young bureaucracy that doesn't have a tradition of senior officers simply throwing stuff at the wall would make sense.


tl;dr Imperial ranks are chaotic because the structure of the military is chaotic and under flux. Insignia probably don't have a centralized meaning and don't make sense out of a context of sector command and local choices we never see.

[Straha]

Two observations from an airport:

- First, in ESB there is at least one other person with an identical rank sign to Captain Piett in the background on the Executor before his promotion and at the end of the movie there's another person with that same rank insignia behind him. Then, in RotJ Piett is treated as an admiral (and in the EU is called a fleet admiral) and yet has reverted back to the Captain's insignia on his uniform.

- Second, I looked up the Wookiepedia for Captain Needa.

A. His name is Lorth. That's terrible.

B. According to the Revenge of the Sith novelization he's present at the Battle of Coruscant, and was a Lieutenant Commander in charge of a Carrack Cruiser, but is a Captain in ESB. However, the Wookiepedia then kindly tells us that according to the Thrawn book (set during the Empire) Lieutenant Commander outranks Captain and is several ranks below Admiral.

So, with this fact-set there are three possible explanations that enable coherent approach to ranking systems:

- Consistency between the OR fleet ranking system and the Imperial Navy system. In which relatively junior officers are being put in command of both Star Destroyers and Super Star Destroyers and a man who has lost ranks over twenty years of service is considered to be eligible to command a ship in Vader's elite strike force. It also paints a world where a junior officer was promoted to Admiral over, presumably, other more senior officers. This creates a consistent ranking structure but also paints an Imperial fleet with a very weak bureaucracy and beset by arbitrary and capricious promotions and demotions even among the supposed elite.

- Changing ranking nomenclature with a consistent hierarchy. This would have to involve at least two different ranking schemas and three different systems for ranking insignia (one for each movie). I'm open to this, but it makes any enterprise to make sense of this baffling and paints an Imperial bureaucracy that's engaging in radical overhauls seemingly at the drop of a hat.

- Ad Hoc, bespoke command structures that are tailored to specific sectors/situations. This can explain away inconsistencies pretty easily, gives a clear explanation for why Admiral Piett would wear different pips in a fleet command situation but not when serving with/under Jerjerrod (who also wears the same rank insignia as Piett in RotJ), and would fit into the universe of a twenty year old military force of what is (to use the observation of a friend) effectively a revolutionary state.

I don't know about y'all, but I think the third option is the most compelling to me.

[MarxII]

I'd agree wholeheartedly, having reached a very similar conclusion pondering the larger nature of the Empire during some exceptionally slow work days. Personally speaking, I think this plays elegantly into the notion that the overall structure of the Empire reflects Palpatine's constant manipulation of factions and personalities.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'd agree wholeheartedly, having reached a very similar conclusion pondering the larger nature of the Empire during some exceptionally slow work days. Personally speaking, I think this plays elegantly into the notion that the overall structure of the Empire reflects Palpatine's constant manipulation of factions and personalities.

Which is simply an extension of Sith/Dark Side philosophy- vicious infighting in which only the strongest rise to the top. Of course, Palpatine intended to make sure he was always the strongest, and playing any potential rivals off against each other helped with that as well. And, at least in the old EU, he pretty much set the Empire up to be an unstable house of cards that would collapse if he wasn't at the top.

[FaxModem1]

I'd agree wholeheartedly, having reached a very similar conclusion pondering the larger nature of the Empire during some exceptionally slow work days. Personally speaking, I think this plays elegantly into the notion that the overall structure of the Empire reflects Palpatine's constant manipulation of factions and personalities.

Which is simply an extension of Sith/Dark Side philosophy- vicious infighting in which only the strongest rise to the top. Of course, Palpatine intended to make sure he was always the strongest, and playing any potential rivals off against each other helped with that as well. And, at least in the old EU, he pretty much set the Empire up to be an unstable house of cards that would collapse if he wasn't at the top.

Well, according to Battlefront II, which is Disney Canon, in the event of the Emperor's death, the orders were to establish great big weapons satellites over Empire-loyal worlds, pointed down, and just blast them in order to make sure that they stayed cowed and afraid of the Empire.



That pretty much made anyone who had more than a few brain cells and a conscience, such as Iden Versio and Del Meeko, really doubt their position in the Empire, and gave them that "Are we the baddies?" talk that made them rethink where they stood as people.

[Straha]

I'd agree wholeheartedly, having reached a very similar conclusion pondering the larger nature of the Empire during some exceptionally slow work days. Personally speaking, I think this plays elegantly into the notion that the overall structure of the Empire reflects Palpatine's constant manipulation of factions and personalities.

I honestly think it might be more reflective of Palpatine not giving a crap about governing.

The Palpatine we saw in the Prequel Trilogy seemed to want power for the sake of having power, and genuinely wanted to kill the Jedi. But the idea that that Palpatine, now in power, is going to want to sit down and engage in the long form art of crafting policy and ruling for the sake of ruling? Where's the obscene murderous joy in that? Where's the revelry in making a tax more fair or redesigning a planet's sanitation system? You think this is the guy who is going to create a rigid and structured bureaucracy? He gives no shits, probably waved it off with half-thought through instructions to underlings, who took his every word as gospel.

It'd explain why he created Grand Admirals too. He makes a new admiral and decides he really likes this guy so he says "You're a GRAND admiral now! Yes. That's a rank." And everyone acts as if it is and scrambles to make it happen.

I think it explains the Death Stars as well. They've always been questionable decisions given the massive investments in return for very limited extra capability (what does a Death Star give that a BDZ doesn't?). But I bet Palpatine was fucking doe eyed with the idea of having a way to gut the military so he doesn't have to talk to people on a regular basis and a way that he could reduce his governing workload down to 'You don't like it? Well, how about I blow you up?'

[The Romulan Republic]

So basically, he's Space Trump?

[Elheru Aran]

So basically, he's Space Trump?

Only far smarter. Trump couldn't have hidden or orchestrated a conspiracy undermining the entire Republic if he was handed Order 66 on a platter.

[The Romulan Republic]

Eh, Trump is actually pretty good at gaming the system and conning people. It may be the only thing he's good at, but it is dangerous to underestimate his abilities in that field.

He and Palpatine pursued very different propaganda/rhetorical styles, though, crafting very different public images of themselves: Trump portrays himself (ridiculously) as a man of the people (as long as you understand "people" to mean "white men"), and basically lays his crassness and ugliness out there for everyone to see, acting on the one hand as wish fulfillment for assholes, and on the other hand being so blatant about how awful he is that people become numb to it or confused by it, not knowing which of the million pieces of bullshit are real and which to focus on.

Palpatine, on the other hand, portrays himself as a kindly, respectable old man, and he mainly works not by getting a populist movement behind him (at least not by what we see on-screen- the EU at times claimed he was widely popular) but by subverting the Republic's key institutions from within. Its a much more patrician approach to taking power, I think.

Edit: Actually, that could be an interesting AU- "What if Palpatine pursued power as an anti-establishment populist?"

[Lord Revan]

So basically, he's Space Trump?

Only far smarter. Trump couldn't have hidden or orchestrated a conspiracy undermining the entire Republic if he was handed Order 66 on a platter.

Also somewhat more competent Palpatine was elected at end of TPM meaning he ruled for at very least for 35 years without practically any signifigant challenges to his rule, the 2000 senators who opposed him in ROTS were a minority and were ultimately insignifigant (so insignifigant in fact that they seemed to have largely kept their positions after the declaration of the Empire), while the jedi arrest attempt was part of his plan to begin with. In fact the Empire didn't seem to fall into chaos until after the emperor's death, once the chessmaster who kept the various parts of the empire running well enough that he wouldn't loose his power as long as he lived.

Trump doesn't seem to be able to rule for 4 years without running into opposition or scandal every other second.

[The Romulan Republic]

That comes back to what I said about the difference in Palpatine's style. Trump courts scandal at every turn. To some extent, it works for him (albeit at the risk that eventually the shear weight of scandals will weigh him down or one of them will become big enough to kill him) by simply overloading people till they become numb to it or just accept it, or using multiple simultaneous scandals as distractions from each other, or using scandals to generate fervor from his base and create wedge issues.

Palpatine, however, likes to lie low, the snake in the grass biding its time for the perfect moment to strike, while presenting a respectable image. This probably has something to do with Palpatine's personality, but also his background. He's a product of the Naboo aristocracy, a career politico in a stagnant system, and also of the Banite Sith, who built their order around secrecy and slowly accumulating power in the shadows.

[Elheru Aran]

I find it somewhat of an unusual approach, given how the EU depicts the chaos and infighting of the greater Empire. I suppose encouraging discord and rivalry is the Sith way, but it's no way to run an intergalactic government. It's like, after he assumes the mantle of Emperor, he began deliberately breaking shit everywhere because he could. Appointing all the wrong people because they kissed his wrinkly ass just right and all that. He got lucky with competent guys like Tarkin, Vader and Thrawn, but on the other hand we have guys like Ozzel and Motti... eh. Expanded universe, what will we ever do with you.

[The Romulan Republic]

I find it somewhat of an unusual approach, given how the EU depicts the chaos and infighting of the greater Empire. I suppose encouraging discord and rivalry is the Sith way, but it's no way to run an intergalactic government. It's like, after he assumes the mantle of Emperor, he began deliberately breaking shit everywhere because he could. Appointing all the wrong people because they kissed his wrinkly ass just right and all that. He got lucky with competent guys like Tarkin, Vader and Thrawn, but on the other hand we have guys like Ozzel and Motti... eh. Expanded universe, what will we ever do with you.

The thing is, this is exceedingly true to real-world authoritarian regimes. Somehow the general public has been sold on the idea that authoritarianism=strong, efficient government, but it really, really doesn't, and history has shown this again and again. Usually it means some old sociopath appointing unqualified and corrupt people because of loyalty, nepotism, ass-kissing, or personal favoritism, and constant backstabbing due to political purges and people falling out of favor with the tyrant. Pretty much every criticism people level at democracy-corruption, dishonesty, inefficiency, personality winning over good policy, both sides being just as bad-is way more true of dictatorships in general. Dictatorships, however, seem to get a pass on these critiques, because they put on a pretense of "strength", and many people reflexively equate brutality and ruthlessness with strength and competency. I suppose, in the end, its that dictatorship appeals to a primitive, follow-the-alpha-male part of human psychology, while democracy must fight against our darker natures, rather than channeling them.

I'd also question listing Tarkin as "competent", and not just because of his failure to take the assault on the Death Star seriously or adequately defend the station. He was obsessed with the narrow, inflexibly brutal doctrine that bears his name, and basically treated the Death Star program as the answer to every problem, forever foreclosing any possibility of the Empire retaining power by non-military means. He strikes me as an inflexible man who was obsessed with having the biggest gun and ruling through terror, and basically treated every problem as a nail that needed a bigger hammer. He's Hux with a less buffoonish veneer.

If anything, I'd put General Tagge on the short-list of competent Imperials alongside Vader and Thrawn, because he was smart enough to see the Rebels as a real threat, and to focus on a strong conventional fleet rather than being excessively enamoured of the Death Star project.

And yeah, the tragedy of Palpatine is that he was a genuinely brilliant politician, beloved by the people, and with exceptional force power and capable allies, with all the means and power to be the man who saved the galaxy, but because he was Sith, and completely indifferent to anything but his own power, he actively made the galaxy weaker, ensuring generations of misery and warfare.

[Lord Revan]

I'd also question listing Tarkin as "competent", and not just because of his failure to take the assault on the Death Star seriously or adequately defend the station. He was obsessed with the narrow, inflexibly brutal doctrine that bears his name, and basically treated the Death Star program as the answer to every problem, forever foreclosing any possibility of the Empire retaining power by non-military means. He strikes me as an inflexible man who was obsessed with having the biggest gun and ruling through terror, and basically treated every problem as a nail that needed a bigger hammer. He's Hux with a less buffoonish veneer.

I'd say Tarkin was competent as military commander and adminstrator for military projects but had issue of lack of inventiveness, flexibility and ability so improvise outside of stick rules and regulations that made him be of limited use in other roles. His failure at the battle of Yavin wasn't really so much incompetense (the rebel tactics insanely desperate gambit that had a really low chance of succeeding) as it was lack of emotional inventiveness mixed with pride that prevented him from seeing that when pushed against the wall the rebels would try to find any weakness to exploit no matter how insignifigant it might seem at first glance or try any tactics that had semi-realistic chance of succeeding.

[MarxII]

I honestly think it might be more reflective of Palpatine not giving a crap about governing.

Yeah, I'd say this rings true for the most part, though I always got the impression that the administrative chaos and even the enthusiastic grab-bag of superweapons were rather more deliberate and intricately managed, even as they put severe strain on the Empire itself and rendered it (again, to my mind, quite deliberately) altogether unworkable in his absence.

[MarxII]

I'd also question listing Tarkin as "competent", and not just because of his failure to take the assault on the Death Star seriously or adequately defend the station. He was obsessed with the narrow, inflexibly brutal doctrine that bears his name, and basically treated the Death Star program as the answer to every problem, forever foreclosing any possibility of the Empire retaining power by non-military means. He strikes me as an inflexible man who was obsessed with having the biggest gun and ruling through terror, and basically treated every problem as a nail that needed a bigger hammer. He's Hux with a less buffoonish veneer.

Tarkin's brief showing in Rogue One puts an interesting spin on this idea, with his effective deposition of Krennic from the Death Star project only after the concept had been proven and the risk laid to rest. That he was or felt himself in a position to step in and claim leadership on a project just as the champagne is uncorked, going on to make his name, his eponymous political theory, and the station itself virtually synonymous to the point of (arguably) putting his life on the line to see the thing through shows perhaps a bit more flexibility than you give him credit for.

[Elheru Aran]

I'd also question listing Tarkin as "competent", and not just because of his failure to take the assault on the Death Star seriously or adequately defend the station. He was obsessed with the narrow, inflexibly brutal doctrine that bears his name, and basically treated the Death Star program as the answer to every problem, forever foreclosing any possibility of the Empire retaining power by non-military means. He strikes me as an inflexible man who was obsessed with having the biggest gun and ruling through terror, and basically treated every problem as a nail that needed a bigger hammer. He's Hux with a less buffoonish veneer.

Tarkin's brief showing in Rogue One puts an interesting spin on this idea, with his effective deposition of Krennic from the Death Star project only after the concept had been proven and the risk laid to rest. That he was or felt himself in a position to step in and claim leadership on a project just as the champagne is uncorked, going on to make his name, his eponymous political theory, and the station itself virtually synonymous to the point of (arguably) putting his life on the line to see the thing through shows perhaps a bit more flexibility than you give him credit for.

The Tarkin novel is also a reasonably decent showing, IIRC. He's arrogant, but not necessarily stupid, was his portrayal there.

[Straha]

I find it somewhat of an unusual approach, given how the EU depicts the chaos and infighting of the greater Empire. I suppose encouraging discord and rivalry is the Sith way, but it's no way to run an intergalactic government. It's like, after he assumes the mantle of Emperor, he began deliberately breaking shit everywhere because he could. Appointing all the wrong people because they kissed his wrinkly ass just right and all that. He got lucky with competent guys like Tarkin, Vader and Thrawn, but on the other hand we have guys like Ozzel and Motti... eh. Expanded universe, what will we ever do with you.

I don't think he broke things because he could. I think the best in-universe explanation is that he broke things because he genuinely didn't care. He's won power, he controls the galaxy, and... what's left? He's a dog who has spent his life chasing cars and finally caught an Abrams Tank, what is there left in life? He seems to get joy out of sadism and using the force (especially to kill Jedi), but beyond that? Solid 'meh's all around.

It explains his lazy planning with just rebuilding another Death Star after the explosion of the first one, and why in RotJ the only thing he seems to enjoy is tweaking Luke, watching Luke and Vader fight, and then torturing Luke.

And, to touch on the 'maybe he's a master manipulator with deep insights into people's minds' thing: Vader is someone Palpatine turned to the dark side by planting images of his wife and children dying, is someone whose turn he cinched by telling him Padme died along with his unborn children, and someone who Palpatine controlled and cajoled by having him search for the Son of Skywalker. And what does Palpy do directly in front of Vader after a climactic battle? Torture his son in front of his eyes with force lightning. Those are the actions of a man who just does not give a crap, not someone who is an arch calculator.

Tarkin's brief showing in Rogue One puts an interesting spin on this idea, with his effective deposition of Krennic from the Death Star project only after the concept had been proven and the risk laid to rest. That he was or felt himself in a position to step in and claim leadership on a project just as the champagne is uncorked, going on to make his name, his eponymous political theory, and the station itself virtually synonymous to the point of (arguably) putting his life on the line to see the thing through shows perhaps a bit more flexibility than you give him credit for.

The Tarkin novel is also a reasonably decent showing, IIRC. He's arrogant, but not necessarily stupid, was his portrayal there.

Tarkin may be emblematic of a young bureaucracy that has no real experience doing things? On one hand he's shown to be a capable manager and organizer. On the other hand there are routine basic errors that are made over and over again. The simplest example being the lack of an active fighter patrol during the approach to Yavin IV (something which the Imperial fleet has in the opening of ESB). The Death Star has fighters, rebel fighters are a known threat, and we see them do plenty of damage to the Death Star in their strafing runs, even if there was no perceived existential threat to the station there's every reason to have a patrol out just to be safe/interdict ships as appropriate.

[MarxII]

I mean, I might spin the idea that there's calculating, and then there's rational, and while the two will tend to quarter in comfort, the latter quality might recede somewhat in a Sith lord whose machinations have reached their (apparent) apex. I'll certainly grant you the near-divinely ordained blunders around the galactic cynosure that is Anakin Skywalker, but even these have a bit too much of that sadistic glee to be attributable to indifference, at least in my opinion.