Moderator: NecronLord
we do not know how big the asteroids in the 40k universe are, and even in our universe there are larger ones than those inside our solar system.But comparing it to the Phalanx which is as big as a moon or an asteroid I think it is undoubted that it refers to asteroids the size of a small moon.AniThyng wrote: ↑2019-09-22 09:31am For what its's worth, the largest "asteroid" in the solar system as per wikipedia is Ceres, which has a surface area of 2,770,000 km^2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceres_(dwarf_planet)
By comparison the smallest continent, Australia has a surface area of 7,692,024 km2.
So by surface area alone I'm not sure you can still describe it as "continent sized".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceres_(dw ... arison.jpg
The size of a medium size country, I guess.
WhiteLion wrote: ↑2019-09-23 10:01amwe do not know how big the asteroids in the 40k universe are, and even in our universe there are larger ones than those inside our solar system.But comparing it to the Phalanx which is as big as a moon or an asteroid I think it is undoubted that it refers to asteroids the size of a small moon.AniThyng wrote: ↑2019-09-22 09:31am For what its's worth, the largest "asteroid" in the solar system as per wikipedia is Ceres, which has a surface area of 2,770,000 km^2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceres_(dwarf_planet)
By comparison the smallest continent, Australia has a surface area of 7,692,024 km2.
So by surface area alone I'm not sure you can still describe it as "continent sized".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceres_(dw ... arison.jpg
The size of a medium size country, I guess.
But it could be as you suggested, we would have an estimate of the abyss class of about 1000 km (the diameter of the asteroid Ceres). It would be consistent with all the canon quotations I have quoted, of the continental dimension, of the mass capable of generating a gravity that hinders the navigation of the other ships, of the quote that says it rivals in power of fire and dimensions with the Phalanx, which is large like a small moon. Everything would coincide
Still not close to the size of a small continent thenElheru Aran wrote: ↑2019-09-23 11:13am ...the Abyss class ships are -nowhere- near 1000 km long.
The length is never stated (40K lore doesn't really do hard numbers for the most part) but it's not described in such absurd terms. 1,000 km would be just about half the distance across the continental United States from its northern to southern borders. Or for another comparison-- that would be longer than the British Isles from Land's End to John o'Groats!
The largest Gloriana class craft that has actual numbers given is 26 kilometres, and those ships took up five percent of Martian manufacturing output, EACH. You're talking about something a couple orders of magnitude bigger than that.
This is utterly untrue.
The ship grinding into reality was a reflection of the slain colossus Lorgar had spoke of. A city of monasteries and cathedral rose from its back with the reverance of clawed hands sculpted to clutch at the stars. Where most Imperial battleships were spears of crenellated intent and iron-ridged might, this was a fortress in space, borne on the back of a great trident. The central tine served as the vessel's core, dense at the stern, encrusted with massive engines and tapering towards the prow, where it formed a pointed ram the size of lesser vessels. The trident's adjacent tines formed smaller blade-wings, each one barnacled with broadsides and cannon batteries.
If one were to clad the concept of spite in iron and set in sailing amongst the stars, it might approach the image of what burst back into the universe in that moment. It was, in every way, the Furious Abyss reborn.
"That," Lorgar smiled, "is the Blessed Lady."
Magnus released an unnecessary breath, watching as a ship too vast to exist left the wound in the material universe. It easily eclipsed even the Gloriana-class flagships of the combined Legion fleet, and the warp's cloudy tendrils lashed at its spires, shrieking into the silence, seemingly reluctant to let the vessel back into reality.
"You built two," the sorcerer breathed.
"Oh no," Lorgar didn't even open his eyes. He raised a hand to point into the void, where a second warp-slice ripped across the stars. "I built three."
You're comparing urban sprawl numbers that have with very little size in the third dimension: i.e. height with multi-kilometer warships. You're in fact giving no numbers in the third dimensions. Since we're comparing with vessels are measured in kilometers in the third dimension, those numbers are highly deceptive. And those are square kilometers, which is sprawl in two dimensions and you're comparing with length only. I don't think you have the grasp of how volume works to do this.WhiteLion wrote: ↑2019-09-24 07:50am
@Imperial Overlord: discussing with you is a pleasure, your posts are full of references.
Having said that you say that its mass of command spirits are compared to a city, you cannot assume its dimensions precisely, there are cities that have an extension much greater than 1000km, New York 11,875 sq km, Boston 9,189 sq km, Tokyo 8,547 sq km, Atlanta 7,296 sq km, Chicago 6,856 sq km, etc.
Also completely ignore the comparison made with the Phalanx in both size and power. However I don't want to say that it can't be 40-50 km big, I don't have the absolute truth, in my small way I'm just trying to get an idea with the canon quotations we're trying to put together, trying not to ignore any of them. I think only reductive given the quotes being so sure of the non-continental dimensions
Since the phrase is "large asteroid or small moon" small moons are relevant.There are also moons like Ganymede of over 5000 km, taking into consideration only the smallest ones (such as Phobos and Deimos) is not objective in my opinion, rather it is limiting.
It was a scratch squadron, not a fleet, and it was a running battle that took the whole book. And the Abyss lost. Boarding actions count. I've already dealt with Armatura in my previous post.As for the Abyss class, in addition to the material regarding the world of Armor we can also examine the journey to the world of Macragge, during the journey alone the Furious Abyss destroyed an entire fleet of ships, proving what happened on the planet Armatura. He was so powerful that to destroy her they had to sabotage her from the inside with a commando of soldiers.
That's a scratch squadron, not a fleet. The Furious Abyss is an impressive ship, but defeating a thrown together unit of a half dozen warships is not something that requires a 100km+ warship.As always, I quote you the quote: https: //warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Furious_Abyss
"The juggernaut ship would be powerful enough to withstand the inevitable firestorm of Macragge's defense lasers"
"In the ensuing battle that followed, Cestus' fleet was slaughtered by the gigantic Battleship. The loyalists suffered disastrous losses: Fearless and Waning Moon, Ferox, Ferocious and the Boundless all remained as decomposing carcasses in a vacuum."
"The death toll of the viral strike would be almost total, wiping out the population of the Ultramarines homeworld
"Beams of blue light flared up to Wrathful's side, and within seconds the fiery fury of his Lances unleashed. The explosions rippled in the armored hull of the furious Abyss, along with the immense explosions of Void's shield blows. wounds were a mere puncture for a huge beast like the Abyss-class warship, and the Word Bearers ship responded with a devastating save. "
"Flashing spears, Wrathful poured out everything that was left on the Battleship of the Word Bearers. Unfortunately that wasn't enough. The Furious Abyss turned and unleashed the hell out of his own facade."
"Cestus, Brynngar and Skraal succeeded in sabotaging the plasma generator of the furious Abyss, starting a chain reaction that would have caused the destruction of the huge ship."
As we can read, only one Abyss Class has faced and destroyed a whole fleet of ships on its own, it is mentioned that the fire of normal ships is like a sting for the hull of the Abyss class.
You can put exterminatus weapons on a frigate. Resisting Macragge's defences is an impressive feat, but it's not what is happening. From the wiki article you are quoting from. Pay attention especially to the bolded part:It is also mentioned that he is able to resist the defense weapons of the planet Macragge and that he has viral exterminatus weapons, which would exterminate the planet Macragge.
Once in the Macragge System, the Furious Abyss intended to attack Formaska, a dead moon. A direct assault against Macragge would be suicide. But the debris from Formaska's destruction would achieve their ends indirectly. The XIIIth Legion would divert forces from the muster point on Calth to the aid of Macragge and would become caught in the subsequent asteroid storm of the moon's demise once they translated into the Macragge System from the Warp. The Word Bearers would then be able to strike the Ultramarines fleet as it was divided and damaged by the asteroid assault, allowing the Traitors to take them utterly by surprise. This assault would not destroy Macragge outright, but it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians and eradicate a good portion of the Ultramarines Legion's strength. The Furious Abyss would then use the debris like a shield, allowing it to get past the warning stations and satellites around Macragge and draw close enough to unleash a viral payload on the world's inhabitants. The juggernaut vessel would be powerful enough to weather the inevitable storm of fire from Macragge's defence lasers. The death toll from the viral strike would be near-total, wiping out the population of the Ultramarines' homeworld, the jewel in the crown of their Realm of Ultramar.
Yes, it was destroyed by that scratch force in a boarding action. An impressive accomplishment for a half dozen thrown together warships, but hardly a sign of the Furious Abyss's power given how commonly boarding tactics are used by Space Marines.Finally to destroy it the only way was sabotage from within.
This post is nonsense. Spaceship battles routinely go on for hours in 40K. The average turn in Battlefleet Gothic is between 10 and 30 minutes long. Your quoted passage said essentially "it had a lot of holes in it and some were really big". Length is also only one dimension.WhiteLion wrote: ↑2019-09-25 03:29am the post is long, I try to answer the points you raised one by one.
- In a conflict that involved a fleet of warships, and that went on for hours, it necessarily led to numerous attacks and numerous holes in the hull; 20 holes of 2 km to cover the entire length. It is hardly credible that in such a fight, with a fleet of warships there were only 20 holes in the hull.
The comparison is between the sky scrappers at a city's core and the spire towers of the Abyss, not the suburban sprawl. Even the Hive Cities of Necrumdia are nowhere near continental in size (it has over 500 surviving Hive Cities).
- As regards the comparison of the cockpit with a city what you say could be true, but the quotation refers in general to the size of a city, to say that it is necessary to reverberate to the vlumetria of buildings is a hypothesis, what you say is not reported in the quotation, it could be true how it could refer to the size of a city in its extension, furthermore we do not know how large the cities in 40k were. If they follow the criterion of size of the ships, the cities in 40k could be much larger than ours.
You're the one who is assuming that the writers mean something else than "size of the moons we know" when they say "moon sized." The comparison is for the reader and based on what the reader is familiar with. Your argument is ridiculous.- As for the moons, once again you are making a comparison with the moons of our solar system, we don't know how big the moons of the 40k world are, assume that they mirror our own, and moreover only those of the system solar is a bit rough and speculative, but this is just my opinion.
A fleet of six, of varying size. Squadron remains more accurate. Nothing impressive.- The quote exactly defines a fleet of warships ("In the ensuing battle that followed, Cestus's fleet was slaughtered by the gigantic Battleship.")
moreover it was not destroyed by the fire of the arms of the fleet but by an internal sabotage precisely because they could not in any way tarnish their defenses, the weapons are cited as simple bites for the Abyss class.
Wrong. The Glorianas were part of the fleet the Blessed Lady was leading. They were on the same side. That you're trying to distort this in saying the Blessed Lady fought two Glorianas (and you've missed the other Abyss class and the combined fleet they're leading) either means you're having trouble comprehending what you're reading or you're dishonest.On the planet Armor then it is specifically reported that the Abyss class faced a defense platform, two orbital attack systems, a fleet and a suicide attack. Even a suicide attack is impossible to face for any ship.
The blessed woman faced even two glorian classes:
cit. "The Blessed woman easily eclipsed the Glorian-class battleships" https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Ab ... Battleship
These are not ordinary ship enterprises, and they are all canons as you can read.
Already proven wrong in the last post. Your own source stated a direct attack on Macragge is suicide, thus the elaborate gambit that is proposed to get the Furious Abyss in position to attack with the same viral weapons loaded on the frigate Eisenstein without directly engaging Macragge's defences.- Even if he did not exterminate the planet Macragge with viral weapons he was rigged to do it: "he is able to resist the defense weapons of the planet Macragge and that he has viral weapons of extermination, which would exterminate the planet Macragge."
Boarding tactics are resisted by shields, small craft, defense turrets, as well as internal defenders. All of these factors increase with ship size. Teleporters are blocked by shields, Assault craft and torpedoes are destroyed by small craft and defense turrets and occasionally weapon batteries. A larger craft has more security troops as well as more Space Marines (if they have them). Vital areas are better defended and harder to get to. Vital areas are also larger and harder to destroy, with more redundancies. So yes, a larger and more powerful ship is harder to destroy in a boarding action.- From the events if you know well the source does not contradict what I write, in fact the Abyss attacks the forces separately. After the fleet would have advanced on the planet Macragge. The quotation in fact speaks of the defenses of the planet, not of the fleet that it faces before.
. A bigger gun might have lower rate of fire or lower velocity.
Or more of the same size, which also means it has more firepower....
