George Lucas Was Disappointed With Lack of Originality in ‘Force Awakens,’ Disney Chief Bob Iger Says

[Vympel]

Take a look at Reddit?

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comme ... ling_luke/

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsLeaks/ ... _luke_was/

Does reddit represent a majority of the SW fanbase? Obviously not, but I think comments and discussions that can generate hundreds on replies can be considered as pretty substantial to me. You might disagree but that's what I think of as being substantial in online fan-communities ( which are still small and not fully representative of SW fanbase as a whole, but it's still substantial)

Are you referring to some random on the thread who takes that single fact to mean TLJ or the sequels is Lucas' story? I couldn't see that, but there are a lot of posts. That Luke was also in exile in Lucas' treatment is on all the available evidence - entirely true. It's the point I made at the start. All I see in those threads is a bunch of interminable arguing about that specific point, not a belief that this means Lucas' treatments as a whole were followed. The level of general knowledge that Lucas' treatments were not used is clearly quite common. It'd be an extremely rare breed of fan who:

a. Cares enough to comment on this issue; and
b. Simultaneously doesn't care enough to know that Lucasfilm not using his treatments has been widely reported since 2015.

Associative Learning is a technique often used in marketing? Whether he is actually doing so can't be proven, but I won't rule out the possibility that he is aware that he can frame his points in a careful manner that advances certain arguments.

So that would be a no.

Let's sort something out first. Do you think it is obvious an employee would most likely say something positive or things that benefits the company they work for in social media? Everything else is irrelevant to me right now until I get what you are actually thinking.

Sure, why not.

[ray245]

Are you referring to some random on the thread who takes that single fact to mean TLJ or the sequels is Lucas' story? I couldn't see that, but there are a lot of posts. That Luke was also in exile in Lucas' treatment is on all the available evidence - entirely true. It's the point I made at the start. All I see in those threads is a bunch of interminable arguing about that specific point, not a belief that this means Lucas' treatments as a whole were followed. The level of general knowledge that Lucas' treatments were not used is clearly quite common. It'd be an extremely rare breed of fan who:

The discussion point about Luke's exile is central to whole issue about whether Lucas' treatment was followed, because that was the main story-point people are concerned about.

So that would be a no.

I can't prove it, but I don't need to definitively prove something to believe in something.

Sure, why not.

That's usually what I need to not take an employee's comments on social media at face value. If someone have an reasons to portray their company or bosses in a better light, I am not inclined to think they are giving a full picture of the situation. I know I could be wrong, but there's not much harm in being wrong about something that's just a hobby of mine. There's nothing wrong with being pleasantly surprised if I am proven wrong.

[Elfdart]

It's people like Jeremy Jahns that basically helped to enable the current mess imo, because those are the SW fans that craved short term enjoyment so much even if it affects their long-term enjoyment of the franchise.

I think SW fans are their worse enemy, and I've repeatedly argued back in TFA that many of the SW fans will regret what they asked for in EP 7. Hopefully now, those fans will learn to think a lot more about what they want, and don't be far too idiotic about Star Wars.

There will always be baying, obnoxious fans. As awful as they sometimes are, the real responsibility lies with the artist to NOT knuckle under to the whim of a mob. This isn't just some highfalutin principle about artists sticking to their guns, it's also very much a practical matter: As Tim Culley (a fictional film director in the movie SOB) said: "Every time someone tries to tell me 'where it's at', it's usually somewhere else".

If Ep 9 underperforms, Disney and LFL kinda had it coming. I've stated again and again that Kennedy is the terrible manager of a franchise like Star Wars, because she is unwilling to be a Feige.

For some reason she's not given much leeway. When Harrison Ford was badly injured on set, she suggested TFA's release date be pushed back to May. Iger made clear that the movie would be released in December, come hell or high water. So much for her clout. That's what you get when studio suits get their hands on the work of a visionary artist. It's all about moving product -nothing else matters.

By the way, the video notes the similarities between the Prequels and Bram Stoker's Dracula. This is no coincidence: George Lucas helped Francis Coppola make the movie, which included reminding Coppola that you're supposed to cut off a vampire's head (Coppola shot the scene where Winona Ryder beheads Gary Oldman as a last-second addition). And several shots are almost identical, like the weddings in AOTC and Dracula.

[ray245]

There will always be baying, obnoxious fans. As awful as they sometimes are, the real responsibility lies with the artist to NOT knuckle under to the whim of a mob. This isn't just some highfalutin principle about artists sticking to their guns, it's also very much a practical matter: As Tim Culley (a fictional film director in the movie SOB) said: "Every time someone tries to tell me 'where it's at', it's usually somewhere else".

Sure, but SW fans have a reputation of being extremely toxic and bullying artists to the point of suicidal.

For some reason she's not given much leeway. When Harrison Ford was badly injured on set, she suggested TFA's release date be pushed back to May. Iger made clear that the movie would be released in December, come hell or high water. So much for her clout. That's what you get when studio suits get their hands on the work of a visionary artist. It's all about moving product -nothing else matters.

Yet Kevin Feige who works under the same boss has no problem making things go his way. It's a management issue.

[The Romulan Republic]

It's people like Jeremy Jahns that basically helped to enable the current mess imo, because those are the SW fans that craved short term enjoyment so much even if it affects their long-term enjoyment of the franchise.

I think SW fans are their worse enemy, and I've repeatedly argued back in TFA that many of the SW fans will regret what they asked for in EP 7. Hopefully now, those fans will learn to think a lot more about what they want, and don't be far too idiotic about Star Wars.

There will always be baying, obnoxious fans. As awful as they sometimes are, the real responsibility lies with the artist to NOT knuckle under to the whim of a mob. This isn't just some highfalutin principle about artists sticking to their guns, it's also very much a practical matter: As Tim Culley (a fictional film director in the movie SOB) said: "Every time someone tries to tell me 'where it's at', it's usually somewhere else".

When you're right, you're right.

For some reason she's not given much leeway. When Harrison Ford was badly injured on set, she suggested TFA's release date be pushed back to May. Iger made clear that the movie would be released in December, come hell or high water. So much for her clout. That's what you get when studio suits get their hands on the work of a visionary artist. It's all about moving product -nothing else matters.

To be blunt, Kathleen Kennedy makes a convenient scapegoat for some people because she's a woman, and women are assumed to be unfit leaders by many in our society (she also earned the special hatred of the Alt. Reich/incels by wearing a "The Force is female" shirt once, IIRC). Then others who may not be committed misogynists themselves just repeat the narrative that its all Kennedy's fault, because that's the message that dominates the discussion.

By the way, the video notes the similarities between the Prequels and Bram Stoker's Dracula. This is no coincidence: George Lucas helped Francis Coppola make the movie, which included reminding Coppola that you're supposed to cut off a vampire's head (Coppola shot the scene where Winona Ryder beheads Gary Oldman as a last-second addition). And several shots are almost identical, like the weddings in AOTC and Dracula.

Huh, that's interesting. Didn't know that.

[ray245]

To be blunt, Kathleen Kennedy makes a convenient scapegoat for some people because she's a woman, and women are assumed to be unfit leaders by many in our society (she also earned the special hatred of the Alt. Reich/incels by wearing a "The Force is female" shirt once, IIRC). Then others who may not be committed misogynists themselves just repeat the narrative that its all Kennedy's fault, because that's the message that dominates the discussion.

Sure I agree with you on that. But her being a women should not prevent her for being criticised for mistakes either.

[The Romulan Republic]

To be blunt, Kathleen Kennedy makes a convenient scapegoat for some people because she's a woman, and women are assumed to be unfit leaders by many in our society (she also earned the special hatred of the Alt. Reich/incels by wearing a "The Force is female" shirt once, IIRC). Then others who may not be committed misogynists themselves just repeat the narrative that its all Kennedy's fault, because that's the message that dominates the discussion.

Sure I agree with you on that. But her being a women should not prevent her for being criticised for mistakes either.

Certainly not. But she has the unenviable position of being high enough in the chain of command that she has responsibility for a lot of people under her, and is a lightning rod for criticism, while not being at the very top (the Disney execs), so she has the responsibility when things go wrong but not the ultimate authority.

[ray245]

Certainly not. But she has the unenviable position of being high enough in the chain of command that she has responsibility for a lot of people under her, and is a lightning rod for criticism, while not being at the very top (the Disney execs), so she has the responsibility when things go wrong but not the ultimate authority.

That's the price of being in leadership position, unfortunately. Kudos to her for trying to be in a position, and she's certainly doing a good job financially. But I think her approach of making one movie at a time is a tradition that might not work well for a franchise like Star Wars. Whoever runs Lucasfilm needs to act as an editor-in-chief of all the directors, making sure they are all on the same track.

Kennedy is quite traditional in her approach, which I think is the root cause for some of the problems in the recent SW movies. With MCU, all directors have to be part of a team, and anyone who has issues with the overall plan of the team will get booted off the franchise.

[The Romulan Republic]

Certainly not. But she has the unenviable position of being high enough in the chain of command that she has responsibility for a lot of people under her, and is a lightning rod for criticism, while not being at the very top (the Disney execs), so she has the responsibility when things go wrong but not the ultimate authority.

That's the price of being in leadership position, unfortunately. Kudos to her for trying to be in a position, and she's certainly doing a good job financially. But I think her approach of making one movie at a time is a tradition that might not work well for a franchise like Star Wars. Whoever runs Lucasfilm needs to act as an editor-in-chief of all the directors, making sure they are all on the same track.

Kennedy is quite traditional in her approach, which I think is the root cause for some of the problems in the recent SW movies. With MCU, all directors have to be part of a team, and anyone who has issues with the overall plan of the team will get booted off the franchise.

I'd say the biggest problem is that they don't seem to have a clear game plan beyond maybe "make money by pandering to whichever groups of fans complained loudest about the last film". And that goes beyond Kennedy. Its clear in Abrams' approach, Johnson's seems to fit the same pattern, and while I have no proof, it seems like something that would be being pushed by the top executives and the marketing department first, not the creative people.

Its odd that Disney and Lucasfilm haven't done a better job of managing Star Wars as a multi-film franchise, though, when another Disney property, Marvel, has hands down the best track record of doing so in cinematic history. I'm not saying that they should or can do everything exactly as the MCU does it, but they have a working model to follow right there.

Edit: I'll add that I don't think any of the Disney films/shows thus far, with the exception of Solo, were bad films on their own. But they don't fit very smoothly together, or with the rest of the franchise. And I'm dreading XI being a clumsy retcon of TLJ o conform to what Abrams originally set up/appease the bashers (including the racists and misogynists, if the near-total absence of Rose in the promotional materials is any indication), leaving TLJ a perpetual awkward odd-man out, and the ST feeling like it awkwardly zig-zagged.

[Ace Pace]

Why do you think Johnson did something to fit the crowd rather than his specific vision?

[The Romulan Republic]

Why do you think Johnson did something to fit the crowd rather than his specific vision?

Very likely he was following his own vision, at least as much as any director on a big budget franchise film can, but whatever his intent, his film zigs where TFA zags, trying to subvert and deconstruct (and ultimately reconstruct) Star Wars, rather than trying to be "A New Hope with more progressive casting" like TFA. And I fully expect RoS to swing back the other way. The likely result is that however good the individual films are, the whole will feel clumsy, clunky, and disjointed at best.

[ray245]

Certainly not. But she has the unenviable position of being high enough in the chain of command that she has responsibility for a lot of people under her, and is a lightning rod for criticism, while not being at the very top (the Disney execs), so she has the responsibility when things go wrong but not the ultimate authority.

That's the price of being in leadership position, unfortunately. Kudos to her for trying to be in a position, and she's certainly doing a good job financially. But I think her approach of making one movie at a time is a tradition that might not work well for a franchise like Star Wars. Whoever runs Lucasfilm needs to act as an editor-in-chief of all the directors, making sure they are all on the same track.

Kennedy is quite traditional in her approach, which I think is the root cause for some of the problems in the recent SW movies. With MCU, all directors have to be part of a team, and anyone who has issues with the overall plan of the team will get booted off the franchise.

I'd say the biggest problem is that they don't seem to have a clear game plan beyond maybe "make money by pandering to whichever groups of fans complained loudest about the last film". And that goes beyond Kennedy. Its clear in Abrams' approach, Johnson's seems to fit the same pattern, and while I have no proof, it seems like something that would be being pushed by the top executives and the marketing department first, not the creative people.

Its odd that Disney and Lucasfilm haven't done a better job of managing Star Wars as a multi-film franchise, though, when another Disney property, Marvel, has hands down the best track record of doing so in cinematic history. I'm not saying that they should or can do everything exactly as the MCU does it, but they have a working model to follow right there.

Edit: I'll add that I don't think any of the Disney films/shows thus far, with the exception of Solo, were bad films on their own. But they don't fit very smoothly together, or with the rest of the franchise. And I'm dreading XI being a clumsy retcon of TLJ o conform to what Abrams originally set up/appease the bashers (including the racists and misogynists, if the near-total absence of Rose in the promotional materials is any indication), leaving TLJ a perpetual awkward odd-man out, and the ST feeling like it awkwardly zig-zagged.

The difference between MCU and Star Wars is Feige himself. Feige didn't attempt to act like a traditional producer, and instead becomes more of an "editor-in-chief" of MCU. Kennedy on the other hand, is as traditional of a producer as you can get. A very successful producer, but one that has never been seen as being too hands-on with the storytelling aspect of the franchise.

It's important for someone who oversees multiple films to have a clear-minded creative vision on what do you want the new movies to be about, and stick with it. You absolutely need to have a clear long-term vision on how do you end the series.

MCU has its hiccups along the way, but you can tell there is a clear endgame in mind for the MCU. Feige knows how and where to end the first saga of the MCU movies. The story of Tony Stark in different MCU movies has been the central narrative guiding the rest of the other movies to a large degree.

[Elfdart]

The difference between MCU and Star Wars is Feige himself. Feige didn't attempt to act like a traditional producer, and instead becomes more of an "editor-in-chief" of MCU. Kennedy on the other hand, is as traditional of a producer as you can get. A very successful producer, but one that has never been seen as being too hands-on with the storytelling aspect of the franchise.

Bullseye!

The title of Producer can cover so many different roles that it's no wonder that almost every movie or TV show has dozens of them.

It's important for someone who oversees multiple films to have a clear-minded creative vision on what do you want the new movies to be about, and stick with it. You absolutely need to have a clear long-term vision on how do you end the series.

For something like the MCU, where everything is interconnected, that certainly helps. But a counter-example would be Albert Broccoli and later his daughter Barbara and the way they handled the Bond series. After the Fleming source material ran out, they just sort of winged it and were very successful.

MCU has its hiccups along the way, but you can tell there is a clear endgame in mind for the MCU. Feige knows how and where to end the first saga of the MCU movies. The story of Tony Stark in different MCU movies has been the central narrative guiding the rest of the other movies to a large degree.

Star Wars used to have that in George Lucas, but a horde of Gen-X manbabies made life hell for him to the point that he stopped making movies altogether. They only tempered their hatred for him slightly when they saw a black stormtrooper and when Rey reminded them of that time they got beat up by a girl in junior high school.

[Galvatron]

I still wonder if Lucas would have proceeded with filming the sequels even if the sale to Disney fell through or if they were only his way of sweetening the deal. Either way, it sounds like he had little regard for the impact they'd have had on the old EU any more than Disney did.

[ray245]

Bullseye!

The title of Producer can cover so many different roles that it's no wonder that almost every movie or TV show has dozens of them.

The producer job is to get movies produced. But what kind of movies they are going to produce is something that differs from producer to producer.

For something like the MCU, where everything is interconnected, that certainly helps. But a counter-example would be Albert Broccoli and later his daughter Barbara and the way they handled the Bond series. After the Fleming source material ran out, they just sort of winged it and were very successful.

If the series is one which consistent narrative threads isn't important, that's fine. But Star Wars relies heavily on narrative continuity.

Star Wars used to have that in George Lucas, but a horde of Gen-X manbabies made life hell for him to the point that he stopped making movies altogether. They only tempered their hatred for him slightly when they saw a black stormtrooper and when Rey reminded them of that time they got beat up by a girl in junior high school.

The Gen-Xers are idiots. Recently Jeremy Jahns voiced his regret about how the SW sequels turned out the way it did because they were asking for more of the same OT. Those fans don't know what they actually want.

[Elfdart]

I still wonder if Lucas would have proceeded with filming the sequels even if the sale to Disney fell through or if they were only his way of sweetening the deal. Either way, it sounds like he had little regard for the impact they'd have had on the old EU any more than Disney did.

I got the impression that Lucas was doing the equivalent of adding a new room or a swimming pool to a house he was about to sell. As for the EU, about the only creative decision Disney has made that I like is dumping the EU.

[ray245]

I still wonder if Lucas would have proceeded with filming the sequels even if the sale to Disney fell through or if they were only his way of sweetening the deal. Either way, it sounds like he had little regard for the impact they'd have had on the old EU any more than Disney did.

I got the impression that Lucas was doing the equivalent of adding a new room or a swimming pool to a house he was about to sell. As for the EU, about the only creative decision Disney has made that I like is dumping the EU.

Only to essentially remake the old EU anyway.

[Galvatron]

about the only creative decision Disney has made that I like is dumping the EU.

But we lost everything about Han's Corellian Bloodstripes and the Solo movie did nothing to address them. Now we have no explanation for them at all.

[Batman]

If those things are so feckin important how come he wore yellow ones in ESB? Maybe the guy just likes coloured stripes on his pant seams

[Gandalf]

If those things are so feckin important how come he wore yellow ones in ESB? Maybe the guy just likes coloured stripes on his pant seams

And how come Lando is wearing Han's clothes at the end of ESB?

[RogueIce]

If those things are so feckin important how come he wore yellow ones in ESB? Maybe the guy just likes coloured stripes on his pant seams

And how come Lando is wearing Han's clothes at the end of ESB?

While I'm sure the EU would have come up with some stupidly contrived reason, this makes sense. Lando just got run off from his home, and it's not like he brought a suitcase with him. Han had a bunch of clothes, and he wasn't using them (obviously). They're more-or-less the same size, so why not in the immediate aftermath?

Granted it may have just been wardrobe being lazy that day, but it's a fairly authentic detail assuming it was deliberate.

[Galvatron]