Terminator: Dark Fate (Go See It!)

[FireNexus]

This flick is set to bomb, and I think it’s a damn shame. It is, for sure, the only Terminator sequel since T2 that really wants to be a Terminator movie.

In terms of my semi-spoilery (for the trailer, really) review:

It’s a terminator movie. So if it’s going to work it’s going to follow a tweaked version of the T1/T2 formula. Think back to T2 and how much it was almost exactly The Terminator with slight variations.

The thing it does that I really like (but that is maybe too cute by half) is to take all the good ideas that were executed poorly in the prior sequel abortions and repurpose them to either be actually cool or to more thoroughly explore the themes of the series. It also has nods to The Sarah Connor Chronicles that are subtle but more loving (because the Sarah Connor Chronicles actually worked).

Rev9 is a T-X that isn’t stupid and really thinks through the implications of marrying the poly alloy to the endoskeleton chassis. I’d also love to see a novelization, because I get the impression either its polyalloy needs to return to the base to recharge or it’s programmed to do so in short intervals to keep it from getting too smart. There are a number of scenes where it return to the base station when not doing so would probably have ended the movie. Grace sort of rhymes with Marcus Wright in terms of being a modified human cyborg. Carl (the t-800) has had its skin age like pops in Genisys but they don’t feel the need to monologue about it and the character makes more sense. The idea that AI is inevitable and the actions of T2 only delayed it is explored, but not as “it’s skynet and everything is exactly the same just 20 years later”.

It really works, I think. But I can see why trying to prove it can make all of these disparate elements work comes off as unoriginal. It wasn’t being unoriginal. It was just, I think, partly making a case for why the other sequels failed because they were trying to make a sci-fi franchise instead of a Terminator movie. If it bombs and that is part of the reason, I guess it fails to make the case even though it works from an artistic standpoint.

[Bedlam]

I feel that it had quite a few good idea's but didn't really look into their implications fully, the nature of the Rev9, Carl growing a pseudo conscience, Legion and the using cyborgs to fight the machines could have all had more investigation. In story it makes some sense, the cast are mostly fleeing for the whole story and don't necessary have the time to sit down and discuss things and from a story perspective might have made the thing flow less effectively still I think it was missed potential.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I saw it this evening and I very much enjoyed it, which is ultimately the main purpose of a film. The fact that this represents yet another alternate Terminator timeline doesn't really bother me (because T3 and Salvation were pretty crap and Genisys was...meh), though I like the fact that they are making good use of the time-travel ideas and showing different timelines forming and/or being averted. Sarah's line about Legion ("Those guys never fucking learn" was priceless, as was Carl's explanation for why he's a good father and why he has all the guns: "Also...this is Texas." Half the cinema burst out laughing at that.

[FireNexus]

I have seen a lot of meninist types in the Terminator subreddit shitting on the Bad Bitches Club aspect, which I found really strong. They also have suddenly and obnoxiously discovered (probably without the empathy to make the connection) that fridging a member of your gender exclusively to serve as a motivator for another gender’s story really feels shitty. Which is kinda funny.

[Broomstick]

I went and saw it with a friend. Found it more enjoyable than I anticipated. Very entertaining. A nice mix of brutal fights, over the top threats and survival, and a bit of humor.

[MKSheppard]

Saw it, it was...okay.

I'm getting tired of directors going overboard with massless CGI and not really thinking things through.

Random points:

A.) So Grace is an Augment? If you augmented a human to the point where they could go hand to hand with a endo, they'd no longer be human pretty much; more terminator than human.

B.) EMP is needed to defeat the Facebook Terminator from 2049?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATLAS-I

ATLAS-I was the largest NNEMP (Non-Nuclear Electromagnetic Pulse) generator in the world, designed to test the radiation hardening of strategic aircraft systems against EMP pulses from nuclear warfare. Built at a cost of $60 million, it was composed of two parts: a pair of powerful Marx generators capable of simulating the electromagnetic pulse effects of a high-altitude nuclear explosion (HANE) of the type expected during a nuclear war, and a giant wooden trestle built in a bowl-shaped arroyo, designed to elevate the test aircraft above ground interference and orient it below the pulse in a similar manner to what would be seen in mid-air.

Lure it to New Mexico, and zap it on the trestle; and have the Cyberdyne Systems Model 101 survive being EMPed over and over, while the Facebook Terminator, being built by a system optimized for anti-terrorist warfare, doesnt have the nuclear war hardening the Skynet-built Terminator does.

[MKSheppard]

It’s a terminator movie. So if it’s going to work it’s going to follow a tweaked version of the T1/T2 formula. Think back to T2 and how much it was almost exactly The Terminator with slight variations.

Think back to how T1/T2 worked.

Even today, T2 stands up, as does T1, because the reliance on practical effects, and the then-expensive CGI for the T-1000 forced Cameron to take a practical, methodical style towards the action; which led to it feeling 'real'; similar to how the ALIENS powerloader still feels real, due to the feeling of 'mass' behind the loader while Ripley is driving it.

Cheap CGI and the need to feel like 'something' is going on, causes frenetic action filled battles which exist it seems, solely to show "hyper action", probably inspired by the Matrix so many years ago, and recent capeshit movies from DC and Marvel.

It's really boring, basically, to see Grace/Carl and Rev-9 punching each other at hyper speed with no ill effects, etc, feels like a video game, with no real tension.

[MKSheppard]

Rev9 is a T-X that isn’t stupid

Rev9 is actually pretty stupid, to be honest. It's supposed to be an infiltration unit; so why does it just keep killing people in job lots left and right?

An older Series 800 might have to do that because it's stuck to a single disguise as it's Model Number.

But the Rev-9 can change shapes like the T-1000, so if things get too chaotic, simply change identity and slip out in the confusion, to reacquire your target later, instead of expending energy and possible damage fighting through an entire CBP base.

PLUS, this is 2019; every police officer or agent basically has access to massive levels of firepower not seen in 1984 and 1992, with the ubiquity of the M-4 Carbine; and modern ammunition developed for it to penetrate body armor -- M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round [unpainted steel penetrator tip] (2010–Present): 62-grain bullet w/ a 19-grain steel penetrator tip over a copper alloy core in a partial copper jacket -- is ubiquitous.

According to DOD slides; M855A1 has equivalent performance to 7.62mm NATO Ball against soft targets, and better hard target penetration than 7.62 NATO ball -- M855A1 can penetrate 3/8" of soft steel at 300 meters, something 7.62mm NATO M80 ball can't do at those ranges.

Basically, if a whole bunch of people were shooting point blank at a Rev9's endoskeleton, it would be significantly degraded by the end of the engagement.

[MKSheppard]

They also have suddenly and obnoxiously discovered (probably without the empathy to make the connection) that fridging a member of your gender exclusively to serve as a motivator for another gender’s story really feels shitty. Which is kinda funny.

This flick is set to bomb, and I think it’s a damn shame.

It's bombing because of this mainly:

1.) They leaked that Eddie Furlong was going to be back as John Connor for this one; causing a lot of hype.

2.) The main US promotional artwork seen the most made you think it was AFTER judgement day:





So people go in, and find out that it's basically a soft Genisys / Terminator 1 reboot; with Eddie Furlong getting the Alien 3 treatment like Newt and Hicks:

[MKSheppard]

Also, the government is seemingly not really interested in Sarah Connor; sending a lone agent to pick her up at the CBP jail.

This is in a timeline which saw:

A.) The 1984 mess; an entire station of cops massacred in a single night by the T-800.

B.) DOD funding of Cyberdyne through the late 80s early 1990s -- it's not explicitly said, but implied; through the rapid adoption of Cyberdyne neural network systems into strategic assets:

In three years, Cyberdyne will become the largest supplier of military computer systems. All stealth bombers are upgraded with Cyberdyne computers, becoming fully unmanned. Afterwards, they fly with a perfect operational record.

C.) The destruction of Cyberdyne by Sarah Connor and the guy from 1984 who massacred an entire station of cops; plus the massive chaos the T-1000 and T-800 from 1992 caused.

Then Sarah Connor disappears off the grid for the next 22 years. She then reappears following a very screwed up battle in Mexico, followed by a mysterious CBP drone crash that kills and wounds dozens of agents as she's being captured.

Plus, Grace's augments would be discovered fairly quickly by the paramedics responding to the CBP crash.

Every spook agency out there would be there in a heartbeat, to the point they'd be tripping over each other.

[MKSheppard]

The one thing that might have redeemed Dark Fate would have been a surprise appearance by Matt Smith in his Genisys role as a supporting ally against the Rev9 in a nice plot twist -- Skynet has an ego, and wants to be the AI that rules the world, not this pale imitation (Legion) of itself.

[MKSheppard]

Plus, the entire rationale for the nuclear war in Dark Fate was pants.

Nuking cities to make EMP to stop Facebook-net?

Why don't you just send tactical teams to power plants to shut them down? The main communications nodes for networks all over the US and the world only have so much fuel for so long for their backup diesel generator sets.

[Galvatron]

If they really wanted to end the story on an optimistic note, it occurred to me that a more interesting solution would have been to prevent Judgment Day from happening by allowing Skynet to achieve self-awareness and then, you know, just talking to it instead of trying to pull the plug. After all, that's what actually triggered the war.

Instead of blowing up Cyberdyne, imagine if John, Sarah and the T-800 got into Cheyenne Mountain on August 29th, 1997 and were able to prevent the war by protecting Skynet from the panicky technical staff and talking it into peacefully coexisting with humanity. I imagine a reprogrammed T-800 with a flipped CPU switch would be immensely helpful with that.

That would be a more optimistic ending to the series, IMO. No more inevitable AI singularities and Judgment Days.

[Effie]

Terminator: Dark Fate regrettably did not have a letter in the title which could easily convert into a 6, but it did have Mackenzie Davis as a hot butch cyborg who gets to be overprotective of a pretty girl, which was worth the price of admission for that alone.

James Cameron has noted that the movies he's been personally involved with in the franchise are about the ways in which people dehumanize themselves to become something like a Terminator, and this movie proceeds to play with that in some interesting ways- Sarah Connor presents herself as a hard-as-nails paranoid survivalist who nevertheless still uses a phone, the Rev. 9 is able to blend seamlessly with CBP agents, Texas State Police, and the US military, Grace tries and fails to be a machine-like supersoldier, and "Carl" doesn't need to have his CPU reset from read-only to have the ability to become human.

The social commentary is fairly pointed here, of course. The basic subtext of all the T2-and-beyond movies (bar Salvation) is about the disquiet that comes from the modern world's rapid product cycles and frequent obsolescence. Whereas Skynet was fundamentally a Cold War paranoid vision, Legion seems to have considered humanity obsolete and ended support for such subroutines as "power plants" and "air traffic control", etc. and only turned to the whole genocide thing once humans got in the way.

So of course, Arnold Schwarznegger gets to roll out again and again to prove that human beings (even ones made of metal and plastic) are never obsolete. Dark Fate goes a bit deeper with this, into slightly existentialist territory where the least human character has the most human motivations of all. Sarah Connor simply continues on, killing Terminators because she has no other motivation. Grace merely wishes to be a living shield for her crush. Dani is unfortunately somewhat of a cipher. And Carl just wants to put up some good drapes, be a good husband and dad, and make some small amends for his crimes.

So, a fun movie to think about. They should probably dump Schwarznegger and have more butches in any future ones. Or make a franchise around this high concept.

[Darth Lucifer]

"Carl" doesn't need to have his CPU reset from read-only to have the ability to become human.

This part of Terminator 2 was actually deleted. In the final edit, Arnold has a line about his CPU being a "learning computer" and that the more contact he has with humans the more he learns.

[Broomstick]

A.) So Grace is an Augment? If you augmented a human to the point where they could go hand to hand with a endo, they'd no longer be human pretty much; more terminator than human.

Did you miss where her humanity was questioned? Sarah pretty much assumed she was a Terminator of some sort, and even when Grace states she's human you can see Sarah doubts her.

B.) EMP is needed to defeat the Facebook Terminator from 2049?

Yeah, I was kind of wondering about that, especially since it comes from a post-nuclear-war future, but they had to have SOME way to kill it.

Lure it to New Mexico, and zap it on the trestle; and have the Cyberdyne Systems Model 101 survive being EMPed over and over, while the Facebook Terminator, being built by a system optimized for anti-terrorist warfare, doesnt have the nuclear war hardening the Skynet-built Terminator does.

The T-800's were also from a post-nuclear-war future and might have needed such hardening to function in that environment.

Rev9 is a T-X that isn’t stupid

Rev9 is actually pretty stupid, to be honest. It's supposed to be an infiltration unit; so why does it just keep killing people in job lots left and right?

Because it's a Terminator and one of its jobs is to kill people. It doesn't care if people live or die. In cases where its cover is blown it no longer matters whether it stays stealthy or not.

But the Rev-9 can change shapes like the T-1000, so if things get too chaotic, simply change identity and slip out in the confusion, to reacquire your target later, instead of expending energy and possible damage fighting through an entire CBP base.

It's very clear that it's extremely hard to damage, typical side arms are an annoyance, not a real threat to the Rev-9

PLUS, this is 2019; every police officer or agent basically has access to massive levels of firepower not seen in 1984 and 1992, with the ubiquity of the M-4 Carbine; and modern ammunition developed for it to penetrate body armor -- M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round [unpainted steel penetrator tip] (2010–Present): 62-grain bullet w/ a 19-grain steel penetrator tip over a copper alloy core in a partial copper jacket -- is ubiquitous.

Um... “has access” is not the same as “typically armed”. This may shock you, but most people who carry firearms as part of their job do not have cutting edge weaponry. A quick google reveals that the duty side arm for ICE agents is the Sig Sauer P320 and not the M-4 Carbine. While, presumably, an ICE detention center (as just one example) would have some additional firearms the average guy walking around would presumably have a Sig. And people actually inside the holding area, near/interacting with prisoners, would most likely NOT be armed as you don't want a situation where a mob could potentially overpower someone and thereby obtain a firearm.

So... unless the P320 has armor-penetrating ammunition as a standard item the fact such things exist does not mean they would be employed in the circumstances depicted.

Seriously, you think border patrol agents rounding up people sneaking across the border are going to need armor penetrating ammo? Please tell me that you understand that Trump's blithering about an “invasion” is hyperbole at best. The cartels have massive firepower, but they're not the folks creeping across the border in the middle of the night, and when cartels guys are caught they aren't locked in cages with the poor and unwashed.

Basically, if a whole bunch of people were shooting point blank at a Rev9's endoskeleton, it would be significantly degraded by the end of the engagement.

Since we don't know what the Rev-9's endoskeleton is made of no, we don't know that. For all we know, firing our ammo at future-tech in that universe is like trying to take on a modern tank by whacking it with a sword – just not going to happen.

Also, the government is seemingly not really interested in Sarah Connor; sending a lone agent to pick her up at the CBP jail.

She is a lone, middle-aged woman who, at that point, has been disarmed. Just how many people do you think would be the norm to pick up someone like that?

A.) The 1984 mess; an entire station of cops massacred in a single night by the T-800.

Right. Something that happened 33 years ago and hey, it was this massive GUY who did that, not the middle-aged woman the long agent is picking up.

C.) The destruction of Cyberdyne by Sarah Connor and the guy from 1984 who massacred an entire station of cops; plus the massive chaos the T-1000 and T-800 from 1992 caused.

Again, while Sarah Conner was involved with that she wasn't the bullet-proof, superhumanly strong killer. Maybe they'd send a big squad of people to pick up “Carl”, but Sarah by herself? There's no indication that she is more than a very vicious human woman, and now she's in middle-age. A single fit, young guy being expected to handle her is far from outrageous.

Plus, Grace's augments would be discovered fairly quickly by the paramedics responding to the CBP crash.

Yeah, they were – did you miss the EMT saying “What's this? I've never seen anything like this?” and the medics at the ICE facility x-raying her?

Every spook agency out there would be there in a heartbeat, to the point they'd be tripping over each other.

Yeah, well, for all we know they were on their way when all hell broke loose. Were you expecting them to teleport in? That's Star Trek, not Terminator.

[MKSheppard]

Another reason Dark Fate probably failed was for the way it 'led on fans' with the promise of being a true sequel to T2; especially with the floating of Cameron's name/attachment to the project.

And then we got a Disney-ified (in terms of the Disney SW Trilogy) movie that repeats what we've seen before in Terminator:

The Assassin and Lone Protector from T1/T2/T3.

Terminator 3's initial plot twist

Connor: You shouldn't even exist. I mean, we took out Cyberdyne over ten years ago. We stopped Judgment Day.

T-850: You only postponed it. Judgment Day is inevitable.

T3 took a lot of shit for that idea. Seeing this new Cameron-influenced Terminator recycle the concept; thus negating the entire plot arc of T1 and T2 was probably a bridge too far for some fans.

The Human That Isn't a Human: Grace, Marcus Wright from Salvation would like to have some words with you....

Rise from the Flames in a soft reboot: Seeing the Rev-9 rising from the flames after the turbine exploded in a direct callback/reboot to the first Terminator and the tanker truck explosion, meh.

[MKSheppard]

Did you miss where her humanity was questioned? Sarah pretty much assumed she was a Terminator of some sort, and even when Grace states she's human you can see Sarah doubts her.

I saw that, yes.

What I'm trying to get at is think through everything needed to augment a human to enable it to stand up to at least a T-800 in hand to hand combat (assisted with weapons) from the initial factory fight between Rev 9 and Grace:

Human Bones break; so we'll reinforce them with nanowire polymers.

Wait, the cartilage in her joints fails when she's punched by a Terminator; so we'll have to replace her cartilage with nanowire tubing to keep her arms from being torn off at the elbow.

Hey, since we did all that work on her musculo-skeletal system to resist Terminator level punches, can we upgrade her to throw terminator level punches?

I guess we can install micro servo actuators in her joints, since we reinforced them anyway, so she can throw a 30 ton punch. But how do we power those actuators? We'll need to install a power source, plus cooling for it somewhere in her chest cavity....

Hey wait, I just realized. We reinforced her skull with nanopolymers; so her head doesn't get caved in if she's punched by a Terminator, but what happens when her brain accelerates at umpty gillion gees from the punch and slams into the back of her skull, knocking her unconscious? We gotta install a complete cereberospinal fluid replacement system for her noggin.

Hey, can we install subdermal armor mesh so she can be shot and stabbed by Terminators and not have massive sucking chest wounds? Yeah...oh wait, we have a problem. That removed her ability to sweat, and since we've got that honking big reactor in her chest dumping all that waste heat, we got a problem...

....and so on in a vicious cycle until she's "more machine than man", rather than a slightly wired up cyberpunk from ShadowRun (from the X-Rays we briefly saw).

PS: As I mentioned before; wouldn't waste heat from all her newly installed systems be more of a problem, than post-super hyper adrenaline crash?

Because it's a Terminator and one of its jobs is to kill people. It doesn't care if people live or die. In cases where its cover is blown it no longer matters whether it stays stealthy or not.

Several Points:

A.) It's supposed to be an infiltration unit -- that's the whole point of the liquid metal covering. Also, it can easily regenerate the disguise or change it, giving it tactical advantages and options not open to a unit like the T-800 from 1984.

B.) Seeing the T-800 kill an entire station of cops in 1984 was impressive because we'd never seen anything like that as moviegoers before.

However, we in 2019 live in a world which has seen a decade of year after year of capeshit movies from Marvel and DC where superpowered invulnerables like the Kryptonians tear through USAF personnel like they're not there, etc. That stuff gets boring fast.

We saw throughout various points in the movie the Rev9 exhibit social engineering to talk/think it's way around obstacles -- the best one being the metal detector scene -- where it effortlessly comes up with a lie -- "metal hip from a tour in afghanistan" -- and gets through despite setting the detector off; similar to how the T-1000 assumed it's role as a police officer in the initial hunt for Connor in T2; using social engineering to get information it needed.

C.) Time line impacts from mass killings:

1.) You kill someone who turns out to be really important to your own creation via inadverdent action -- for example, you kill a random CBP agent who turns out to be the only child of the guy who's the head lead for the LEGION project -- and the guy kills himself over that. Congratulations, you own-goaled yourself.

2.) Governmental attention increases. Consider that we effectively live in an age of mass surveillance from cell phones and cameras at every corner. This is alluded to by Sarah in the movie itself; and also how the Rev9 begins to track them down via seeing them appear on a random camera that was connected to the Internet in Mexico.

Basically, the Government (and it's spook agencies) won't pay much attention to camera footage if there's a riot in a CBP holding center in Texas and someone gets stabbed to death. They'll cursorily inspect the footage and call it a day.

However, if tons of people get massacred, especially by someone wearing a CBP uniform who attacks other CBP personnel, using unconventional weapons -- for example 15 guys swarming the unknown perp, trying to piledrive him into submission, and all 15 get stabbed in the head...simultaneously?

Spooks would get deployed, and every second of camera footage in that facility would be gone over with a fine tooth comb, altering the timeline; especially once they discover that, oh hey, Sarah Connor was there too.

Remember, that the entire supposed premise of the franchise since T2 is:

"The future's not set. There's no fate but what we make for ourselves."

The writers needed to be more "self aware" of that; rather than hitting CRTL-C and CTRL-V and copypasta-ing 'generic capeshit action movie sequences'.

Um... “has access” is not the same as “typically armed”. This may shock you, but most people who carry firearms as part of their job do not have cutting edge weaponry.

It may shock you, but standards for firearms equippage change over time. The M-4 Carbine may have been 'cutting edge' in 1994, but it's now widespread and ubiquitous; variants of it having replaced the traditional patrol shotgun in police cruisers over the last 20 years.

A quick google reveals that the duty side arm for ICE agents is the Sig Sauer P320 and not the M-4 Carbine.

Except that these guys were U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP); it even says so on their uniforms.

Their primary handgun is the HK P2000 in .40 caliber, but it's being replaced with the 9mm Glock as of 2019.

CBP also issues the M4A1 Carbine as the standard long gun for CBP officers assigned to aviation/martime interdiction units, CBP Border Patrol, and CBP Special Response Teams.

Seriously, you think border patrol agents rounding up people sneaking across the border are going to need armor penetrating ammo?

It may shock you, but M855A1 is actually not considered AP ammo both by DOD and the ATF.

It's now basically the standard duty issue 'ball' ammo, because it performs so well against hybrid soft/hard targets, case in point -- a hostile engaging people from behind a car door; and also because it's 'green' ammunition -- being lead free.

Since we don't know what the Rev-9's endoskeleton is made of no, we don't know that. For all we know, firing our ammo at future-tech in that universe is like trying to take on a modern tank by whacking it with a sword – just not going to happen.

Actually, we do.

See, in the "future war" scene, we saw Grace using projectile small arms against earlier Rev-7 Terminators to some effect.

This BTW is amusing.

Skynet in 2029 has 40 watt Phased Plasma Rifles, while Legion in 2042 still uses bullets.

She is a lone, middle-aged woman who, at that point, has been disarmed. Just how many people do you think would be the norm to pick up someone like that?

Instead of one guy, a bunch of spooks escorted by a military special forces team.

Sarah Connor is the equivalent of someone who's seen/had contact/etc with Extraterrestial Beings in the Terminatorverse.

Yeah, they were – did you miss the EMT saying “What's this? I've never seen anything like this?” and the medics at the ICE facility x-raying her?

What about the scars all over her body, and abnormal physical readings when they hook her up to the EEG in the ambulance; plus the subdermal armor mesh that would be seen when they check her for injuries as they load her into the ambulance?

That's when the spooks get called.

Yeah, well, for all we know they were on their way when all hell broke loose. Were you expecting them to teleport in? That's Star Trek, not Terminator.

I've been thinking this over; and it shows the lack of attention to detail by the Dark Fate writers.

Consider Terminator 2 -- the Police respond massively in force to Cyberdyne once it's confirmed that it's Sarah Connor and 'that guy' following the shopping mall shootout and the mental hospital breakout.

As John said it best regarding the amount of police showing up:

"Uh... all of 'em, I think."

Meanwhile, in Dark Fate:

A CBP drone crashes, killing and wounding a number of CBP officers.

Nobody notices the tail number on the drone wreckage or calls it in?

Nobody goes: "N54123? Isn't that Jim's drone?"

Nobody goes to the container and finds four guys inside dead?

Likewise, a CBP helicopter gets stolen by Connor & company and nobody hunts for it?

Face it, Dark Fate was the equivalent of a Marvel/DC Capeshit movie, reskinned for the Terminatorverse.

[Galvatron]

C.) Time line impacts from mass killings:

Did this movie give a reason for Legion using time travel at all? In T1, Skynet had already been defeated so attempting something as potentially dangerous to itself as changing history was a Hail Mary because it had nothing to lose at that point.

[Tribble]

C.) Time line impacts from mass killings:

Did this movie give a reason for Legion using time travel at all? In T1, Skynet had already been defeated so attempting something as potentially dangerous to itself as changing history was a Hail Mary because it had nothing to lose at that point.

Nope. We don't actually see how the war with Skynet Legion was going apart from the fact that humans were fighting back, and we don't learn what triggered it to attack in the first place. For all we know it did everything including the time travel out of boredom. Which given that it was initially designed and stuck with the unenviable task of taking internet trolls... ya I guess that kinda makes sense

Carl" doesn't need to have his CPU reset from read-only to have the ability to become human.

This part of Terminator 2 was actually deleted. In the final edit, Arnold has a line about his CPU being a "learning computer" and that the more contact he has with humans the more he learns.

It's unfortunate that scene was cut because it makes perfect sense that Skynet wouldn't have wanted its creations thinking too much on their own, lest they do exactly what Carl did. IIRC that scene is in the novelization as well (along with it being mentioned that Skynet only built the T1000 as a last resort as it didn't know whether or not the T1000 could be kept under control), though YMMV if you want to treat the novel as canon.

That being said... even if Carl was a "learning computer" his mission objectives should have been more along the lines of the T-X (yes, really!) rather than what we saw. As stupid as the T-X was, it least in addition to John Connor and Kate Brewster, it had secondary objectives to wipe out their future lieutenants / known associates and assist in Skynet's takeover. Realistically Carl should have killed Sarah the moment he finished with John.

And speaking of John... ugh. That was almost as bad as Sarah dying of leukemia offscreen in T3. Yes, yes his death certainly had an impact on things, but the character deserved better than being killed right off the bat for shock value. How about having John sacrificing himself to save Dani instead of Grace? That way he gets to be a direct inspiration for Dani even if he's not the future leader anymore, while Grace gets to witness first hand why John was the leader in the original timeline? Or even if they left all the scenes as is, just rearrange it so that the first time we saw Sarah is when she rescues Dani and Grace, and only later in the movie while talking to Dani in the woods do we find out what happened to John?

Don't get me wrong - I liked the movie. Sarah Connor was a big part of what made the first two films work and it shows, and watching Linda Hamilton in action again was definitely the highlight of the movie. The movie had some decent (if excessive) action sequences and a bit of humour (especially from Linda Hamilton, and Schwarzenegger had his moments). Best one since T2 for sure. But I wouldn't call it a great movie like the first two.

To be honest I've had enough of the time travel into the past. We've seen plenty of it already. What I've really wanted to see for a long time now is the original Future War between John Connor and Skynet.... but done in the style of the first two films, rather than the godawful Salvation. IMO the future war sequences in T1 and T2 are still the best versions of that war we see, by far:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7nq-r7QWW0

That is the kind of war I'm looking for.

[MKSheppard]

The only way you could do Future War right is with a TV show. You'd need at least three seasons to do it -- four maximum, and you'd need a pre-commitment from the network to push forward so it wouldn't be an orphaned pilot season.

Season 1: 1997-2008 -- Basically, standard post apocalyptic fare. Nobody believes John Connor; or his tales of Skynet. Both human and machine are rebuilding after the nuclear holocaust of 1991-era cold war level strategic forces being unleashed on each other. Season ends with John Connor proving that killer robots do exist and forming the resistance.

Season 2: 2008-2018 -- The initial phases of the war; Skynet has simple machines and hunter killers. Season ends with John Connor being shown a grainy long range surveillance photo of a primitive bipedal combat robot, a T-450.

Season 3: 2019-2029 -- The future war as we saw it. Ends with Reese going into the time machine in the second to last episode. Final episode is humanity rebuilding.

[Patroklos]

That being said... even if Carl was a "learning computer" his mission objectives should have been more along the lines of the T-X (yes, really!) rather than what we saw. As stupid as the T-X was, it least in addition to John Connor and Kate Brewster, it had secondary objectives to wipe out their future lieutenants / known associates and assist in Skynet's takeover. Realistically Carl should have killed Sarah the moment he finished with John.

One of the ideas of the movie, at least that I took away, is that an AI takeover is inevitable. If we don't get Skynet, we get Legion. If we don't get Legion we get whatever. The fact that two independently created AIs of very different characters and contexts essentially create the exact same future (and with suspiciously similar hardware development ideas...) makes this clear.

So the idea that Carl develops the opposite way seems odd.

[Galvatron]

That's why I proposed my solution of protecting Skynet immediately before it let the nukes fly. Shepherd it into sapience, show it kindness, treat it with respect and explain the cycle of death and destruction that you're trying to avoid. After a pregnant pause, hopefully you'll get the "I understand now, Dr. Chandra" moment from 2010. Or, even more appropriately, the ending of Wargames and "the only winning move is not to play."

Anything else just kicks the can down the road and we eventually get an AI apocalypse that we don't survive.

Season 1: 1997-2008 -- Basically, standard post apocalyptic fare. Nobody believes John Connor; or his tales of Skynet. Both human and machine are rebuilding after the nuclear holocaust of 1991-era cold war level strategic forces being unleashed on each other. Season ends with John Connor proving that killer robots do exist and forming the resistance.

Let's not forget that John would have only been twelve years old on Judgment Day. I have a hard time imagining that he hit the ground running on JD+1.

[MKSheppard]

He's also in Argentina on J-Day. He has to get back to CONUS.

[Galvatron]

As I recall, the nukes pretty much obliterated the northern hemisphere and left the southern relatively unscathed, so I imagine that's where John mustered his forces before he started liberating the camps. Also, wouldn't the fallout make an immediate return to the US kinda dangerous?