Muller probe fallout continues- Roger Stone convicted on all counts: lying to Congress, obstruction, witness tampering.

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Muller probe fallout continues- Roger Stone convicted on all counts: lying to Congress, obstruction, witness tampering.

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https://cnn.com/2019/11/15/politics/rog ... index.html
(CNN)Longtime Trump political adviser Roger Stone was found guilty on Friday of lying to and obstructing Congress in a case that has shed new light on President Donald Trump's anticipation of the release of stolen Democratic emails in 2016 by WikiLeaks.

Stone, a political operative and Trump's friend, was found guilty of all seven counts brought by the Justice Department, a victory for special counsel Robert Mueller's Russia investigation. Stone was found guilty of five counts of lying to Congress, one of witness tampering and one of obstructing a congressional committee proceeding. Among other things, he misled Congress about his communications with Trump campaign officials in 2016, the jury unanimously decided.

The verdict out of Washington marks a stunning conclusion to one of the highest-profile prosecutions to emerge from the Mueller investigation -- a case that began with one of Trump's most vocal supporters arrested during a predawn raid as the special counsel's investigation wound down and since then has gradually revealed new information about the Trump campaign's positive reception to foreign interference in the 2016 US election.

Stone had no audible reaction as the courtroom deputy read the jury's verdict, but he slouched, standing, with a frown. His movements were slow and deliberate as he took a sip of water while each juror stated their position, confirming their unanimous decision, then hung behind in the corner of the courtroom, rarely speaking to others as attorneys and onlookers filed out.

His wife, too, simply looked straight ahead, though a friend of Stone's, Michael Caputo, turned his back to the jurors when all in the courtroom stood to watch them leave. As those in the courtroom dispersed, Stone kissed his wife on the cheek.

Thirty minutes after the jury delivered its verdict, Trump tweeted about his displeasure with it.

"So they now convict Roger Stone of lying and want to jail him for many years to come. Well, what about Crooked Hillary, Comey, Strzok, Page, McCabe, Brennan, Clapper, Shifty Schiff, Ohr & Nellie, Steele & all of the others, including even Mueller himself? Didn't they lie?" the President wrote on Twitter, citing his political foes who either worked on or contributed information to the Russia investigation. "... A double standard like never seen before in the history of our Country?"

Prosecutors asked the judge to take Stone into custody immediately, but she declined. After considering that he may have communicated with right-wing commentator Alex Jones this week -- potentially violating a gag order on his case that prevents him from speaking about it -- Judge Amy Berman Jackson said she would keep a gag order on him as he awaits sentencing. He may return home to Florida, and his sentencing is set for February 6.

Stone potentially faces prison time, but his sentence will be entirely up to the judge. For the most serious of his crimes, witness tampering, he faces a maximum sentence of 20 years.

"He has been here for every court appearance. I have no reason to believe" he won't come to his next appearance, Jackson said Friday.
After leaving the courthouse and arriving where he's been staying in Washington, Stone told CNN, "No comment," when asked if he would seek a pardon from the President.

In recent months, Trump has weighed pardoning Stone if he was convicted, multiple people familiar with his thinking say.
Several of Stone's allies have lobbied the President to do so, but multiple people also have advised the President that doing so would be a terrible idea politically and have cautioned against it, people familiar with the situation have told CNN.

These discussions were happening while a conviction was still hypothetical. Now that a federal jury has convicted Stone, it's not clear where the President stands.

The charges

According to prosecutors, Stone lied during testimony and failed to turn over documents to Congress in 2017 showing he had sought to reach WikiLeaks the previous year. He lied about five facts, obscuring his attempt to use intermediaries to get information that could help then-candidate Trump in the election against Hillary Clinton.

WikiLeaks had released emails in July 2016 that the Russians had hacked from Democratic Party servers, and followed up with drops of emails stolen from the Clinton campaign's chairman in October 2016, continuing until Election Day.

Stone's trial at a federal courthouse in Washington revealed the extent to which the longtime Trump friend was directly in touch with Trump and other campaign officials about Wikileaks' 2016 release of hacked Democratic emails.

When the House had asked Stone in September 2017 if he had discussed WikiLeaks, its founder Julian Assange or the Democratic hack with the Trump campaign, Stone had denied it under oath , saying his legal team "found nothing" of those types of communications.
Prosecutors argued that witness testimony, along with Stone's texts, emails and phone records, showed Stone's interest in reaching WikiLeaks about the hacked documents it had and speaking to the Trump campaign and even Trump himself about it. Prosecutors said Stone had lied to Congress out of a desire to protect Trump.

"It would look really bad for his longtime associate Donald Trump" if the truth had come out, prosecutor Jonathan Kravis had said in his closing argument on Wednesday.

Stone's defense team countered that Stone didn't have a motive to protect Trump when he testified to the House in 2017, because Trump already had won the election and become President.

Witnesses in the trial included a cast of Trump-world characters like former White House strategist Steve Bannon and former Trump campaign deputy chairman Rick Gates, a key cooperator in Mueller's investigation. Both emphasized the campaign's interest in hacks and leaks dating back to April 2016.

During the trial, prosecutors revealed several phone calls between Trump and Stone, including a July 2016 conversation in which, Gates testified, Trump and Stone spoke about the planned release of hacked Democratic emails.

In his written answers to Mueller, Trump said he didn't recall his conversations with Stone, nor discussions about WikiLeaks and the Democratic hack.

Prosecutors argued that Stone's alleged failure to tell Congress about the attempts to reach WikiLeaks left the House Intelligence Committee with a blind spot in its investigation -- causing the committee's final report on Russian interference in the election to be inaccurate.

Stone threatening his once-friend Randy Credico, a comedian and radio host, compounded problems for the House, prosecutors argued.
Stone had told the House that he had an intermediary, whom he later identified as Credico, trying to reach Assange during the campaign. But prosecutors alleged another man had sought to get to Assange on behalf of Stone and the campaign, making Stone's claims about Credico false.

When Credico was called before Congress following Stone's testimony, Stone sent him emails and texts directing him to lie or to refrain from sharing the truth. Credico warned him that Stone may have perjured himself already, but Stone persisted, quoting over and over again lines from the film "The Godfather: Part II," referring to a character who is pressured by the Mafia family to lie to Congress.

Inside the courthouse

The trial got off a chaotic start on November 5 -- Stone missed some of the jury selection because he felt ill -- and brought out a memorable cast of characters both as witnesses and in the audience of the courtroom. At times, the proceedings drew laughs from the courtroom, with Credico even offering to do celebrity impressions in the witness box. But as the trial went on, the mood became more somber. By Friday morning, the second day of jury deliberations, Stone carried a Bible with him into the courthouse.

Stone's wife, Nydia Bertran Stone, was by his side throughout the trial, along with a cadre of supporters, including some who have identified themselves as part of the Proud Boys, a far-right group, and a man dressed in floor-length black-and-white robes who Stone described as his "spiritual adviser" and who led Stone's wife and others in prayer.

Prosecutors hit a stirring, philosophical note just before sending the case to the jury, making a broad appeal for the truth in the final words of their closing argument. Prosecutor Michael Marando had latched onto a phrase used in the defense's closing argument, "So what?"

"So what? ... Well, if that's the state of affairs that we're in, I'm pretty shocked. Truth matters. Truth still matters, OK?" Marando said to the jury.

"I know we live in a world nowadays with Twitter, tweets, social media, where you can find any view, any political view you want. ... However, in our institutions of self-governance, courts of law or committee hearings, where people under oath have to testify, truth still matters," he added, before asking for the jury to find Stone guilty.

The jury of nine women and three men, including a former congressional candidate and a federal government lawyer, deliberated over two days. During their almost nine hours discussing Stone's charges, the jury asked the judge questions that indicated a close reading of prosecutors' wording of the charges. At 11:11 a.m. Friday, the jury wrote to the judge: "WE HAVE REACHED A VERDICT."

Stone had been arrested last January in a predawn raid at his home in Florida by armed federal agents, caught exclusively on camera by CNN. That kicked off weeks of Stone's attempts to draw support, especially on social media. But he crossed a line by posting on Instagram a photo of the judge with crosshairs behind her head -- and Jackson then limited his ability to speak publicly about the case.
Jackson oversaw the weeklong trial in Washington's federal district court, cementing her status as one of the most significant arbiters over Mueller's work. She previously sentenced Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort to a years-long prison term following his guilty plea in the Mueller investigation, and is set to sentence Gates on December 17.

Trump campaign and WikiLeaks

Gates' testimony in Stone's trial was an especially telling reminder of Mueller's finding that the Trump campaign had welcomed the release of hacked documents that could help them in the 2016 election.

Gates testified he had witnessed Trump take an evening phone call from Stone as they rode to New York's LaGuardia Airport from Trump Tower in late July 2016. Stone and Trump apparently discussed WikiLeaks' planned release of hacked Democratic emails.

"After Mr. Trump got off the phone with Mr. Stone, what did Mr. Trump say?" prosecutor Aaron Zelinsky asked Gates on Tuesday. "He indicated more information would be coming," Gates responded.

The call happened days after WikiLeaks' first release on July 22, 2016, of emails the Russian military had allegedly hacked from the Democratic National Committee.

Gates said WikiLeaks' announcement that it had pending information on then-presidential candidate Clinton was a "gift."
"It was in a way a gift that we had not sought," said Gates. "There were a number of us who felt it would give our campaign a leg up."
Bannon, another high-profile witness, testified that he and the Trump campaign viewed Stone as an "access point" to WikiLeaks.
Credico spent the longest time in the witness box during the trial.

He wasn't in court to hear the verdict but told CNN afterward that he was "stunned," "shell-shocked" and "not rejoicing."
"The whole thing is depressing. It started out as a fender bender that turned into a 21-car, tractor-trailer pileup," Credico said.
"It's a sad, man-made tragedy that could have been avoided."

CNN's Sara Murray, Kaitlan Collins, Olanma Mang, Aaron Cooper, Gregory Clary and Marshall Cohen contributed to this report.
Despite Trump and Barr's attempt to sweep its conclusions under the rug, the Mueller probe continues to bring results: Trump associate and advisor Roger Stone has just been convicted on all seven counts, including witness tampering (one of the things Trump is being accused of in the impeachment inquiry).

Stone has been one of the sleaziest political operatives in America since Nixon's day, was an apparent Trump campaign go-between with Wikileaks during the 2016 election, and during the Mueller probe was known for making threats of political violence and associating with far Right militias, which is probably why the FBI stormed his house in force when they arrested him.

Aside from the satisfaction of seeing this waste product of the Nixon administration finally get what's coming to him, this is significant because one of the main reasons given for parts of the Mueller Report being redacted (including material pertaining to Wikileaks) is that it was part of the ongoing case against Stone. That information can now, presumably, be made public.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

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Re: Muller probe fallout continues- Roger Stone convicted on all counts: lying to Congress, obstruction, witness tamperi

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Another important facet of this is that the main charges against Stone were lying to Congress, so Stone's fate provides an object lesson to other Trump lackies weighing whether to tell the truth or try to bullshit Congress during the ongoing impeachment inquiry:

https://theguardian.com/us-news/2019/no ... ng-himself
Donald Trump’s fate in the impeachment inquiry could rest in the hands of a donor and supporter under pressure to turn against the US president to save his own skin.

Gordon Sondland, the American ambassador to the European Union, is due to testify on Wednesday during the second week of televised hearings that have rocked the White House.

Sondland is certain to be questioned about the biggest revelation from last week: a phone call he made Trump from Ukraine in July in which the president was overheard asking about an investigation into one of his political rivals. Sondland allegedly assured him it would go ahead.

The ambassador made no mention of the call in a deposition to the inquiry behind closed doors, nor in a revised statement three weeks later that conceded a quid pro quo over military aid. Now, in front of TV cameras and an audience of millions, he will be asked why.

As he weighs his answer, Sondland may try to balance fealty to Trump with the fate that has befallen others in the president’s circle: his former lawyer Michael Cohen and ex-campaign chairman Paul Manafort are both behind bars, while political operative Roger Stone was last week found guilty of lying to Congress.

“Hey Ambassador Sondland,” tweeted Joe Scarborough, a former congressman turned TV host, “Roger Stone lied to Congress for Trump and is now going to jail. Just like his campaign manager and lawyer. Are you next? Your call, Gordy.”

Washington has been gripped by only the fourth impeachment inquiry in American history. Last week, in the first public hearings, three senior officials – Bill Taylor, George Kent and Marie Yovanovitch – presented a damning account of how Trump smeared his own diplomats so he could establish an irregular channel to bribe Ukraine and boost his chances in next year’s presidential election.

But the president remained defiant and there were few cracks in the defensive wall erected by Republicans and conservative media.

Sondland, however, could prove pivotal. The hotelier and Republican fundraiser had an on-off relationship with Trump during the 2016 presidential election campaign but came on board with a $1m through his companies to his inaugural committee. Sondland was appointed US ambassador to the EU and moved to Brussels last year.

On 10 July this year, a White House meeting with Ukrainian officials ended abruptly when Sondland said he had an agreement with Mick Mulvaney, the acting White House chief of staff, that Ukraine’s president Volodymyr Zelenskiy would get a meeting with Trump if Ukraine agreed to open investigations.

John Bolton, then national security adviser, was appalled, the inquiry has heard, and remarked: “I am not part of whatever drug deal Sondland and Mulvaney are cooking up on this.”

Military aid to Ukraine was frozen until further notice. On 25 July, Trump spoke to Zelenskiy by phone, pressing him for help in gathering potentially damaging information about former vice-president Joe Biden, a potential challenger in next year’s presidential election.

On 26 July, Trump spoke by phone with Sondland while the ambassador was in a restaurant in Kiev. Last week Taylor, the top US diplomat in Ukraine, told the inquiry that one of his staff overhead parts of the conversation, in which Trump referred to “the investigations”.

After the call, the staff member asked Sondland what Trump thought about Ukraine. “Ambassador Sondland responded that President Trump cares more about the investigations of Biden, which [his personal lawyer Rudy] Giuliani was pressing for,” Taylor testified.

Republicans dismissed Taylor’s account as hearsay and Trump told reporters after the hearing that he knew “nothing” about the call with Sondland. The staff member cited by Taylor was David Holmes, who testified in private on Friday.

A copy of Holmes’s opening statement, first obtained by CNN, said: “Sondland told Trump that Zelenskiy ‘loves your ass’. I then heard President Trump ask, ‘So, he’s gonna do the investigation?’ Ambassador Sondland replied that ‘he’s gonna do it,’ adding that President Zelensky will do ‘anything you ask him to’.”

With Republicans seeking to portray every allegation as based second or third hand sources, Democrats are sure to press Sondland on this direct conversation with the president and ask why he omitted it from his earlier evidence.

Matthew Miller, former chief spokesperson for the justice department, said: “I think Sondland’s testimony is incredibly important because if you look at his last appearance before the committee in private, it seems pretty year he was withholding facts on a number of occasions. He claims to not remember conversations that it was implausible for him to forget.”

Sondland told the committee that he never discussed investigating Biden with anyone at the White House or state department, Miller noted. “Now you have this reported conversation where he gets off the phone and says to a staffer that Biden is the most important thing. If that’s true, he just clearly lied to the committee. That is as clear cut a lie as you can catch someone in.”

The consequences for Sondland could be dire if he maintains blind loyalty to Trump. Miller, now a partner at management consultancy Vianovo, added: “If I was him, I would be very worried about a referral to the committee for a criminal charge and I would be trying to get on the right side of the committee to prevent that happening. The committee now has a lot of leverage over him to get him to tell the truth.


Trump personally kept pressure on Ukraine, says impeachment inquiry witness
Read more
“Throughout the Mueller inquiry [into alleged collusion with Russia], there were a lot of witnesses who thought they could stick with Trump and get a pardon. Paul Manafort and Michael Cohen are now in prison and Roger Stone has just been convicted. So that’s a pretty dangerous gamble to make.”
So this really couldn't have come at a better time.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

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Re: Muller probe fallout continues- Roger Stone convicted on all counts: lying to Congress, obstruction, witness tamperi

Post by bilateralrope »

I wonder if Trump is going to pardon Stone. If he does, I have no idea how it will affect public/republican support for Trump.

If he doesn't, then anyone thinking of lying for Trump should know not to expect a pardon if they get charged with lying.
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Re: Muller probe fallout continues- Roger Stone convicted on all counts: lying to Congress, obstruction, witness tamperi

Post by The Romulan Republic »

bilateralrope wrote: 2019-11-17 01:38pm I wonder if Trump is going to pardon Stone. If he does, I have no idea how it will affect public/republican support for Trump.

If he doesn't, then anyone thinking of lying for Trump should know not to expect a pardon if they get charged with lying.
He didn't pardon Manafort.

The difference between Trump and a more competent mob boss is that Trump doesn't get that loyalty has to go both ways. Its a wonder anyone will still stick their neck out for him.

Ten to one he throws Stone under the bus. On the off-chance he doesn't, his pardoning Stone will probably have little political effect except maybe among a few independents, but it will encourage other witnesses in the impeachment case to lie to Congress, and possibly be added to the Articles of Impeachment under "abuse of power" and "witness tampering".
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Muller probe fallout continues- Roger Stone convicted on all counts: lying to Congress, obstruction, witness tamperi

Post by Knife »

bilateralrope wrote: 2019-11-17 01:38pm I wonder if Trump is going to pardon Stone. If he does, I have no idea how it will affect public/republican support for Trump.

If he doesn't, then anyone thinking of lying for Trump should know not to expect a pardon if they get charged with lying.
Inside reports indicate GOPers have already told him if he pardon's Stone before the election, let alone the Impeachment hearings, will cost him a lot of support in the Senate.

I don't know how solid it is, but that's the rumor going around.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

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Re: Muller probe fallout continues- Roger Stone convicted on all counts: lying to Congress, obstruction, witness tamperi

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I'll believe Republicans will meaningfully break with Trump when I see it, and not before. Its telling that if that's correct, their objection is more likely to him doing it before the election/impeachment trial, than to him doing it.

They might threaten loss of support behind closed doors, hoping he won't put them in the spot of having to defend yet another outrageous act. But I bet you if he calls their bluff and does it, when push comes to shove, they'll all or nearly all toe the line regardless.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Muller probe fallout continues- Roger Stone convicted on all counts: lying to Congress, obstruction, witness tamperi

Post by Knife »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-11-17 02:33pm I'll believe Republicans will meaningfully break with Trump when I see it, and not before. Its telling that if that's correct, their objection is more likely to him doing it before the election/impeachment trial, than to him doing it.

They might threaten loss of support behind closed doors, hoping he won't put them in the spot of having to defend yet another outrageous act. But I bet you if he calls their bluff and does it, when push comes to shove, they'll all or nearly all toe the line regardless.
Well of course it is about the optics related to them keeping power individually. I'm not making any of them out to be heroes. That said, any of them willing to jump ship is a boon, which is why the more embarrassing information that comes out the more and more I think they'll jump ship. If enough embarrassing stuff comes out (again going back to my theory of his taxes) before the Senate trial and/or during it, it will be the only chance of getting rid of him early.

As things stand currently, the House has the votes to Impeach and the Senate will not remove.

That said, that's impeachment, this is Stone...

It's also important to note, this is as close as we're going to get right now of an actual bit of 'collusion'. Every time a Trumper does a 'no collusion no collusion' bit, I can say "tell that to Roger Stone in prison."
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Re: Muller probe fallout continues- Roger Stone convicted on all counts: lying to Congress, obstruction, witness tamperi

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Knife wrote: 2019-11-17 03:19pm
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-11-17 02:33pm I'll believe Republicans will meaningfully break with Trump when I see it, and not before. Its telling that if that's correct, their objection is more likely to him doing it before the election/impeachment trial, than to him doing it.

They might threaten loss of support behind closed doors, hoping he won't put them in the spot of having to defend yet another outrageous act. But I bet you if he calls their bluff and does it, when push comes to shove, they'll all or nearly all toe the line regardless.
Well of course it is about the optics related to them keeping power individually. I'm not making any of them out to be heroes. That said, any of them willing to jump ship is a boon, which is why the more embarrassing information that comes out the more and more I think they'll jump ship. If enough embarrassing stuff comes out (again going back to my theory of his taxes) before the Senate trial and/or during it, it will be the only chance of getting rid of him early.

As things stand currently, the House has the votes to Impeach and the Senate will not remove.

That said, that's impeachment, this is Stone...

It's also important to note, this is as close as we're going to get right now of an actual bit of 'collusion'. Every time a Trumper does a 'no collusion no collusion' bit, I can say "tell that to Roger Stone in prison."
Oh, Stone (and others) definitely colluded (and now we have Trump "colluding" with, or rather extorting aid from, Ukraine to boot). And hopefully some more evidence of that will be revealed now that the parts of the Mueller Report relating to Stone can presumably be unredacted.

But the argument is somewhat weakened because collusion is not what Stone was actually convicted for- as the Mueller Report showed, there are a lot of things which meet the colloquial term of "collusion" but aren't provably crimes.

What's more important is that he was convicted for lying to Congress- that's going to weigh on the minds of every witness being called to testify before Congress in the impeachment inquiry. And for witness tampering, which is likely to be one of the articles of impeachment against Trump. Likewise, a pardon would be devastating, because it would encourage other witnesses to think that they can lie to the inquiry with impunity.

As to peeling off Senators in an impeachment trial... I don't have a lot of hopes, honestly we'll be lucky if we don't get a Democratic turncoat or two in Manchin and Jones, but I think if we do get a Republican Senate defection, our best hope is Mitt Romney. He's been one of the most critical of Trump, has said some things that could be taken as implying support for impeachment, and is in a possibly unique position of being rich enough, and popular enough in his home state, that he really doesn't need Trump to be reelected. He also is old enough that (especially as a failed Presidential candidate) he's not realistically going to be worrying much about future political aspirations, so much as his legacy.

And if one or two Republicans have the courage to jump ship, it might encourage others to do so. And if one is going to have the balls to make the first move, it'll be Mitt. I'm still not saying its likely but... if you want a conviction, start calling Mitt Romney's office.

Hell, of all the outright bizzare things that have happened over the last few years, that would be quite the twist ending, wouldn't it? Mitt Romney, saviour of the Republic. :lol:
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Muller probe fallout continues- Roger Stone convicted on all counts: lying to Congress, obstruction, witness tamperi

Post by Zaune »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-11-17 03:33pmHell, of all the outright bizzare things that have happened over the last few years, that would be quite the twist ending, wouldn't it? Mitt Romney, saviour of the Republic. :lol:
Up until he decides this gives him enough public support for another shot at the big chair himself.
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Re: Muller probe fallout continues- Roger Stone convicted on all counts: lying to Congress, obstruction, witness tamperi

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Zaune wrote: 2019-11-17 05:46pm
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-11-17 03:33pmHell, of all the outright bizzare things that have happened over the last few years, that would be quite the twist ending, wouldn't it? Mitt Romney, saviour of the Republic. :lol:
Up until he decides this gives him enough public support for another shot at the big chair himself.
Very unlikely, but honestly, I'd be okay with that, at least as an alternative to my desired outcome of the Republican Party utterly collapsing and the Democrats subsequently splitting into a Centrist and Socialist party as the two main parties.

We beat Romney once and I'm pretty sure we could do it again, as he'd have no real base to run on- he'd appeal to a narrow slice of Centrists between a Democratic progressive base who'd hate him for being a billionaire, and a Republican neo-fascist base who'd hate him for "betraying" Dear Leader Donald. And honestly, if we're going to have a Republican Party, Romney is about as non-toxic as one can imagine a Republican nominee today plausibly being, in that he's not a foaming at the mouth die-hard Trumper/barely-closeted white supremacist.

The only danger is that if he was nominated by the Republicans in a post-Trump swing back toward moderation (however unlikely that may be), and then lost, it would probably be like last time all over again- Republicans would conclude that they lost because he wasn't fascist conservative enough, and swing hard toward white supremacy and fascism again.

Honestly, in hindsight, and as depressing as it is, I wonder if a Romney win wouldn't have been better for America/the world. Republicans would have won by running a more Centrist candidate, while Romney's billionaire corporatist bullshit would have fueled a strong progressive campaign in 2016 that might have lead to Bernie getting the nomination (especially as Hillary would be tied to a failed Obama Presidency).

Edit: I also have pretty much zero doubt that Romney would have told Putin to go fuck himself, because he was warning about Russia back when everyone still thought he was nuts for doing so.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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