Best villain defeats

[Gandalf]

Your point that they missed a characterization opportunity. I think what they ultimately did (a deeply flawed man who nevertheless DID have a genuine desire to help the world for reasons beyond vanity vs the evil shriveled grape sho wants validation despite what self serving rhetoric he uses) was a fine characterization

Another point. In Endgame Tony gracefully reconciles with Steve and owns up after 5 years. Thanos, when presented with proof that he’s wrong, has a villainous breakdown and tries to burn everything down so a more “grateful” universe that will “appreciate” his sacrifices will be born. For all that Tony is a pompous ass his goals are genuinely selfless whereas Thanos wants validation and gets murderous when he doesn’t get it

Throughout the whole thing Stark doesn't abandon or really even reform his one person death regime, except to make it more effective. In his will, he left the Iron Man "infrastructure," including the absurdly powerful killbot system to... a teenager who reminds him of himself. No safeties on or anything. Stark doesn't become a better person, he remains the egomaniac with a private kill program that he always was. I question how genuine that selflessness is.

[The Romulan Republic]

Your point that they missed a characterization opportunity. I think what they ultimately did (a deeply flawed man who nevertheless DID have a genuine desire to help the world for reasons beyond vanity vs the evil shriveled grape sho wants validation despite what self serving rhetoric he uses) was a fine characterization

Another point. In Endgame Tony gracefully reconciles with Steve and owns up after 5 years. Thanos, when presented with proof that he’s wrong, has a villainous breakdown and tries to burn everything down so a more “grateful” universe that will “appreciate” his sacrifices will be born. For all that Tony is a pompous ass his goals are genuinely selfless whereas Thanos wants validation and gets murderous when he doesn’t get it

Throughout the whole thing Stark doesn't abandon or really even reform his one person death regime, except to make it more effective. In his will, he left the Iron Man "infrastructure," including the absurdly powerful killbot system to... a teenager who reminds him of himself. No safeties on or anything. Stark doesn't become a better person, he remains the egomaniac with a private kill program that he always was. I question how genuine that selflessness is.

I do think Tony was honestly trying to make the world a better place. He's just really, really bad at it.

Honestly, he reminds me a little of Anakin Skywalker, in that he's very cocky, distrustful of oversight, and ultimately driven by his emotions and his personal attachments/loyalties.

If he were a Jedi he'd definitely fall to the Dark Side.

Edit: Basically, he's a guy who will lay down his life for others in a heartbeat if it comes to it, and he shows that many times. But he will also put the universe in danger for one kid (inventing freaking time travel to save Peter), and he greatly overestimates his ability to control the situation.

[Darth Yan]

Your point that they missed a characterization opportunity. I think what they ultimately did (a deeply flawed man who nevertheless DID have a genuine desire to help the world for reasons beyond vanity vs the evil shriveled grape sho wants validation despite what self serving rhetoric he uses) was a fine characterization

Another point. In Endgame Tony gracefully reconciles with Steve and owns up after 5 years. Thanos, when presented with proof that he’s wrong, has a villainous breakdown and tries to burn everything down so a more “grateful” universe that will “appreciate” his sacrifices will be born. For all that Tony is a pompous ass his goals are genuinely selfless whereas Thanos wants validation and gets murderous when he doesn’t get it

Throughout the whole thing Stark doesn't abandon or really even reform his one person death regime, except to make it more effective. In his will, he left the Iron Man "infrastructure," including the absurdly powerful killbot system to... a teenager who reminds him of himself. No safeties on or anything. Stark doesn't become a better person, he remains the egomaniac with a private kill program that he always was. I question how genuine that selflessness is.

The guy sacrifices his life to save the universe; pretty much the ultimate selfless act one can do. He also helped guide Nebula to being a better person by showing her basic kindness and decency. He also told Peter "I wanted you to be better" and only gave him the advanced suit back when he proved he could handle it.

At this point you're engaging in Ron the Death Eater treatment. Is Tony a saint? Christ no. But he's hardly a monster like some particularly annoying fans seem to think.


Here's an analysis of Tony's arc: https://www.shrinktank.com/psychology-o ... -iron-man/
PS: Though I do have to wonder when Tony had time to make the will since Peter hadn't even been back two seconds when Thanos struck. Maybe it was an earlier will he never got around to updating.

[Darth Yan]

Bury me in the ocean, with my ancestors that jumped from the ships, because they knew death was better than bondage.

Killmonger was a great villain but the entire point was that he'd be so beaten down and twisted by life that he'd basically internalized the values of his abusers. Notably T'Challa's arc in Civil War had him be forced to face the futility and poisonous nature of revenge (when he realizes he almost killed an innocent person AND that the guy who was the true murderer was motivated by the same pain and anger he was feeling.)

[The Romulan Republic]

Your point that they missed a characterization opportunity. I think what they ultimately did (a deeply flawed man who nevertheless DID have a genuine desire to help the world for reasons beyond vanity vs the evil shriveled grape sho wants validation despite what self serving rhetoric he uses) was a fine characterization

Another point. In Endgame Tony gracefully reconciles with Steve and owns up after 5 years. Thanos, when presented with proof that he’s wrong, has a villainous breakdown and tries to burn everything down so a more “grateful” universe that will “appreciate” his sacrifices will be born. For all that Tony is a pompous ass his goals are genuinely selfless whereas Thanos wants validation and gets murderous when he doesn’t get it

Throughout the whole thing Stark doesn't abandon or really even reform his one person death regime, except to make it more effective. In his will, he left the Iron Man "infrastructure," including the absurdly powerful killbot system to... a teenager who reminds him of himself. No safeties on or anything. Stark doesn't become a better person, he remains the egomaniac with a private kill program that he always was. I question how genuine that selflessness is.

The guy sacrifices his life to save the universe; pretty much the ultimate selfless act one can do. He also helped guide Nebula to being a better person by showing her basic kindness and decency. He also told Peter "I wanted you to be better" and only gave him the advanced suit back when he proved he could handle it.

At this point you're engaging in Ron the Death Eater treatment. Is Tony a saint? Christ no. But he's hardly a monster like some particularly annoying fans seem to think.


Here's an analysis of Tony's arc: https://www.shrinktank.com/psychology-o ... -iron-man/
PS: Though I do have to wonder when Tony had time to make the will since Peter hadn't even been back two seconds when Thanos struck. Maybe it was an earlier will he never got around to updating.

Or he wrote it anticipating the possibility that they would undo the Snap but he would die in the process. Granted that suggests more foresight than Tony usually shows, but maybe the defeat to Thanos, plus the responsibility of having a kid, finally leveled him out a bit (though if so, it would have been nice to see more of that character growth on-screen- another point for "they should have spent more time on exploring the post-Snap world").

[Gandalf]

The guy sacrifices his life to save the universe; pretty much the ultimate selfless act one can do. He also helped guide Nebula to being a better person by showing her basic kindness and decency. He also told Peter "I wanted you to be better" and only gave him the advanced suit back when he proved he could handle it.

"Is nice to some people" and "grooms his teenaged successor to run unaccountable global monitoring and death machinery" do not a hero make. One is a basic human act, and the other is monstrous.

The selflessness in that last minute situation certainly isn't nothing, but if Bush had the same unaccountable killing power as Tony Stark people would have justifiably gone apeshit.

At this point you're engaging in Ron the Death Eater treatment. Is Tony a saint? Christ no. But he's hardly a monster like some particularly annoying fans seem to think.

Tell that to the people of Sokovia.

[Darth Yan]

The guy sacrifices his life to save the universe; pretty much the ultimate selfless act one can do. He also helped guide Nebula to being a better person by showing her basic kindness and decency. He also told Peter "I wanted you to be better" and only gave him the advanced suit back when he proved he could handle it.

"Is nice to some people" and "grooms his teenaged successor to run unaccountable global monitoring and death machinery" do not a hero make. One is a basic human act, and the other is monstrous.

The selflessness in that last minute situation certainly isn't nothing, but if Bush had the same unaccountable killing power as Tony Stark people would have justifiably gone apeshit.

At this point you're engaging in Ron the Death Eater treatment. Is Tony a saint? Christ no. But he's hardly a monster like some particularly annoying fans seem to think.

Tell that to the people of Sokovia.

It's hardly "last minute selflessness" to give up his own life. In both the first Avengers movie AND Endgame he's entirely willing to sacrifice himself to save others. Even his creation of Ultron was in part inspired by that vision of seeing EVERYONE on earth and his friends dead (along with the "you could have saved us".) He stopped selling munitions and other weapons specifically because he sees the misery they cause up close (and having to interact with someone who lost everything because of him.) Sokovia occurred during his pre movie days and it's literally spelled out that he IS trying to atone (he also fights to save the people of Sokovia in the climax of Age of Ultron as well and his his debut in Iron Man is specifically to save an Afghani village that are being oppressed using HIS weapons. Stane goes after him because he puts his foot down and stops manufacturing weapons.)

People can change. Shiro Azuma and Ken Yuasa both committed monstrous crimes and both devoted the rest of their lives to trying to atone for their misdeeds even at great personal cost. It doesn't change the bad things they DID do but to act like that's all that matters is cretinous. The Tony Stark of Civil War-Endgame is NOT the same Tony Stark who existed prior to the events in Afghanistan.

The point about Peter was that he showed a willingness to take things away when Peter proved he wasn't ready for them, and only gave them back when he proved he could handle them. The point with Nebula was that a.) it was completely selfless (he fully expected to die there) and b.) it went a LONG way to helping Nebula become a better person. Maybe it was a basic act but it went VERY far.

[Darth Yan]

Back on topic the Bishop in Castlevania
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC1kke-WgLo

This bastard is literally responsible for EVERYTHING that happens in the show by having Dracula's wife burned as a witch on trumped up charges, and to top it all off he's far more human than the Prince of Darkness. The smug holier than though asshole who thinks he is just and so whatever he does is good is distressingly real, which makes him far more hatable.

[Adam Reynolds]

I'd say Zaheer in The Legend of Korra, as nearly the perfect example of an antagonist being a successful failure, in which they largely accomplish their goal only for it to become a disaster. He successfully assassinates the Earth Queen without really planning for anything that comes after, which leads to Kuvira rising to power as essentially a fascist leader.

His takedown also has several layers of irony: as the airbending anarchist is pulled from the sky by the very chains that he attempted to bind Korra with, while caught in a tornado created by the newly reformed Air Nation, who gained their powers from Harmonic Convergence just as he did.

[Gandalf]

It's hardly "last minute selflessness" to give up his own life. In both the first Avengers movie AND Endgame he's entirely willing to sacrifice himself to save others. Even his creation of Ultron was in part inspired by that vision of seeing EVERYONE on earth and his friends dead (along with the "you could have saved us".) He stopped selling munitions and other weapons specifically because he sees the misery they cause up close (and having to interact with someone who lost everything because of him.) Sokovia occurred during his pre movie days and it's literally spelled out that he IS trying to atone (he also fights to save the people of Sokovia in the climax of Age of Ultron as well and his his debut in Iron Man is specifically to save an Afghani village that are being oppressed using HIS weapons. Stane goes after him because he puts his foot down and stops manufacturing weapons.)

People can change. Shiro Azuma and Ken Yuasa both committed monstrous crimes and both devoted the rest of their lives to trying to atone for their misdeeds even at great personal cost. It doesn't change the bad things they DID do but to act like that's all that matters is cretinous. The Tony Stark of Civil War-Endgame is NOT the same Tony Stark who existed prior to the events in Afghanistan.

Indeed people can change. Stark went from being a merchant of death, to holding all of the killing power for himself, to sharing it with the extrajudicial superhero secret police. Moments of hero Stark include construction of a murder bot and just letting it run while having a party, interring Scarlet Witch because "they don't grant visas to weapons of mass destruction," and then giving Spiderman the keys to the Iron Man infrastructure. Amusingly, he only seems fussed about the deaths in Sokovia once someone explains to him that an American was in the mix, which leads to massive accountability for everyone else, or less if they toe his line a bit. Iron Man is good at superpowered punching, but out of that... ugh.

That also raises how many of Earth's problems could be solved with widespread usage of his magic technology, but that's another discussion I think.

The point about Peter was that he showed a willingness to take things away when Peter proved he wasn't ready for them, and only gave them back when he proved he could handle them. The point with Nebula was that a.) it was completely selfless (he fully expected to die there) and b.) it went a LONG way to helping Nebula become a better person. Maybe it was a basic act but it went VERY far.

Where did Spiderman show his worthiness to be in charge of the all seeing death apparatus? I would think that the events of Far From Home would raise doubts.

[LadyTevar]

Back on topic the Bishop in Castlevania
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC1kke-WgLo

This bastard is literally responsible for EVERYTHING that happens in the show by having Dracula's wife burned as a witch on trumped up charges, and to top it all off he's far more human than the Prince of Darkness. The smug holier than though asshole who thinks he is just and so whatever he does is good is distressingly real, which makes him far more hatable.

Oh yeah, I was cheering for the monsters on that one. When they expanded on how they captured and tortured her (in season two), it made me angry they killed him that fast.

[LadyTevar]

I'd say Zaheer in The Legend of Korra, as nearly the perfect example of an antagonist being a successful failure, in which they largely accomplish their goal only for it to become a disaster. He successfully assassinates the Earth Queen without really planning for anything that comes after, which leads to Kuvira rising to power as essentially a fascist leader.

His takedown also has several layers of irony: as the airbending anarchist is pulled from the sky by the very chains that he attempted to bind Korra with, while caught in a tornado created by the newly reformed Air Nation, who gained their powers from Harmonic Convergence just as he did.

Zaheer did more than that -- he broke the Avatar. Mentally, physically, spiritually.

[Adam Reynolds]

Zaheer did more than that -- he broke the Avatar. Mentally, physically, spiritually.

True, that is also another layer of successful failure, as breaking Korra was another factor in allowing Kuvira's rise to power.

[Darth Yan]

It's hardly "last minute selflessness" to give up his own life. In both the first Avengers movie AND Endgame he's entirely willing to sacrifice himself to save others. Even his creation of Ultron was in part inspired by that vision of seeing EVERYONE on earth and his friends dead (along with the "you could have saved us".) He stopped selling munitions and other weapons specifically because he sees the misery they cause up close (and having to interact with someone who lost everything because of him.) Sokovia occurred during his pre movie days and it's literally spelled out that he IS trying to atone (he also fights to save the people of Sokovia in the climax of Age of Ultron as well and his his debut in Iron Man is specifically to save an Afghani village that are being oppressed using HIS weapons. Stane goes after him because he puts his foot down and stops manufacturing weapons.)

People can change. Shiro Azuma and Ken Yuasa both committed monstrous crimes and both devoted the rest of their lives to trying to atone for their misdeeds even at great personal cost. It doesn't change the bad things they DID do but to act like that's all that matters is cretinous. The Tony Stark of Civil War-Endgame is NOT the same Tony Stark who existed prior to the events in Afghanistan.

Indeed people can change. Stark went from being a merchant of death, to holding all of the killing power for himself, to sharing it with the extrajudicial superhero secret police. Moments of hero Stark include construction of a murder bot and just letting it run while having a party, interring Scarlet Witch because "they don't grant visas to weapons of mass destruction," and then giving Spiderman the keys to the Iron Man infrastructure. Amusingly, he only seems fussed about the deaths in Sokovia once someone explains to him that an American was in the mix, which leads to massive accountability for everyone else, or less if they toe his line a bit. Iron Man is good at superpowered punching, but out of that... ugh.

That also raises how many of Earth's problems could be solved with widespread usage of his magic technology, but that's another discussion I think.

The point about Peter was that he showed a willingness to take things away when Peter proved he wasn't ready for them, and only gave them back when he proved he could handle them. The point with Nebula was that a.) it was completely selfless (he fully expected to die there) and b.) it went a LONG way to helping Nebula become a better person. Maybe it was a basic act but it went VERY far.

Where did Spiderman show his worthiness to be in charge of the all seeing death apparatus? I would think that the events of Far From Home would raise doubts.

Dude we get it. You think he’s a villain. Though I do notice that you seem to be purposefully interpreting things in the most negative light

1.) The thing that pushed him into building Ultron was seeing that vision of everyone on earth as well as his fellow Avengers dead with Steve saying “you could have saved us.” In that case he was operating out of a misguided desire to protect the earth (he evolved from feeling the need to protect himself to building an armor to protect others). Tony had that insecurity and flaw but that vision (which pre heel turn Wanda induces) did bring it out.

2.) I won’t dispute Wanda. That was idiotic and at the very least they should have talked or outlined reasons why going out might not be a good idea.

3.) Really? That scene with the woman confronting him is based on a scene where Tony meets the mother of a child who died in the Stamford explosion (the original event that set off the comics version). You can easily argue that it would have probably worked if it had been a SOKOVIAN who confronted him. In the first Iron Man movie the thing that makes him suit up the first time is when he hears Yinsen’s village is the one being attacked so seeing the direct consequences has had an impact. It also helps that he realizes he shouldn’t have brought peter in anyway (hence why he sends him back) and he DID try to present the evidence of Zemo’s involvement legitimately.....only to be ignored.

4.) Peter had taken down the Vulture on his own and had done so responsibly. That showed he had grown or had a willingness to learn


Edit: I also linked an article outlining Tony's growth. The truth is that he DOES care for other people, but he's also deeply flawed. As mentioned earlier he's Thanos but whereas Thanos was fundementally a selfish dickhead Tony did actually care for others even if he did a lot of deeply stupid things.

[Darth Yan]

Here's another.
https://reelrundown.com/movies/Iron-Man ... n-His-Life

Basically the guy's a steaming mess of issues but unlike say Ozymandias or Thanos he at least has the capacity to step back and admit that he's wrong (Even if it takes longer than it should.) He's also guided by guilt and PTSD. Remember that the thing that made him finally cut the arms dealing was seeing the pain it caused on civilians (Yinsen) and being told "Don't waste your life." He wants to be a better person, and he sees the way to do that as being a savior.

[The Romulan Republic]

Here's another.
https://reelrundown.com/movies/Iron-Man ... n-His-Life

Basically the guy's a steaming mess of issues but unlike say Ozymandias or Thanos he at least has the capacity to step back and admit that he's wrong (Even if it takes longer than it should.) He's also guided by guilt and PTSD. Remember that the thing that made him finally cut the arms dealing was seeing the pain it caused on civilians (Yinsen) and being told "Don't waste your life." He wants to be a better person, and he sees the way to do that as being a savior.

Granted, though that is a fairly egotistical way to pursue redemption.

[Darth Yan]

The point is that Gandalf saying he’s a villain who should have died is cretinous.

[Gandalf]

Dude we get it. You think he’s a villain. Though I do notice that you seem to be purposefully interpreting things in the most negative light

1.) The thing that pushed him into building Ultron was seeing that vision of everyone on earth as well as his fellow Avengers dead with Steve saying “you could have saved us.” In that case he was operating out of a misguided desire to protect the earth (he evolved from feeling the need to protect himself to building an armor to protect others). Tony had that insecurity and flaw but that vision (which pre heel turn Wanda induces) did bring it out.

And? Why is "had a vision" grounds for losing his responsibility over a planet killing murderbot?

2.) I won’t dispute Wanda. That was idiotic and at the very least they should have talked or outlined reasons why going out might not be a good idea.

The fact that you describe imprisonment sans trial (if Stark is even answerable to any laws anyway?) as "idiotic" says more than you may think.

3.) Really? That scene with the woman confronting him is based on a scene where Tony meets the mother of a child who died in the Stamford explosion (the original event that set off the comics version). You can easily argue that it would have probably worked if it had been a SOKOVIAN who confronted him. In the first Iron Man movie the thing that makes him suit up the first time is when he hears Yinsen’s village is the one being attacked so seeing the direct consequences has had an impact. It also helps that he realizes he shouldn’t have brought peter in anyway (hence why he sends him back) and he DID try to present the evidence of Zemo’s involvement legitimately.....only to be ignored.

It could have been a Sokovian, but it wasn't. Stark was in Sokovia, and presumbly saw Sokovians dying from his creation while he was there. When he goes back to scold everyone after an American tells the story of an American death, the story isn't of the faceless foreigners who died, but rather the American kid. Even then, it's weird that the lesson he draws is "the Avengers need to be put in check" as opposed to "maybe I should have some oversight to my mad scientist labs."

4.) Peter had taken down the Vulture on his own and had done so responsibly. That showed he had grown or had a willingness to learn

What the hell is your threshold for worthiness to run something like EDITH? Is it because he's graduated from Stark's child soldier program?

Edit: I also linked an article outlining Tony's growth. The truth is that he DOES care for other people, but he's also deeply flawed. As mentioned earlier he's Thanos but whereas Thanos was fundementally a selfish dickhead Tony did actually care for others even if he did a lot of deeply stupid things.

Thanos cared about the universe too. That was the point of the whole thing and why he was written as a crazed eco terrorist.

[Darth Yan]

1.) It doesn't. I'm saying that it helps explain his actions and it shows that he DOES care about others.

2.) Uh I still disagreed with it and agreed it was a stupid move on his part. Even if there were reasons (Wanda was a pariah) he should have definitely shown more concern for her wishes

3.) The American mother literally got up in his face and directly confronted him about it. If a Sokovian mother had done the same thing you LITERALLY would have gotten the same thing. But again you assume he's a villain. And while Tony definitely needs oversight himself the fact is that when you have a bunch of people running around without accountability the results are going to be bad. Tony did ignore it when it suited him but he DID also try to play by the rules (contacting Ross about Zemo and only going after him when Ross told him to fuck off). Hell look at what happens in Nigeria. They could have EASILY cooperated with the police and so stopped Rumlow's actions without the casualties. Steve's "the safest hands are our own" was kind of arrogant and definitely more than a little reckless.

4.) No the fact that Peter had displayed growth and maturity compared to his earlier escapades

Thanos cares but it's also mixed with a lot of narcissism (hence why he devolves into "kill em all" when he learns that no the rest of the universe WON'T be grateful for his plans and will just consider him a monster.) Tony, for all his recklessness, DOES possess enough self awareness to admit that he's wrong (hence why he apologizes to Steve in Endgame, is willing to allow Peter to operate on his own after Homecoming) and even at his worst his ideas were never as batshit insane as those of Thanos.

Basically Thanos is Tony with NO redeeming qualities or self awareness.

[Gandalf]

1.) It doesn't. I'm saying that it helps explain his actions and it shows that he DOES care about others.

So he's responsible for Ultron. Cool. Why isn't he in SuperGitmo?

2.) Uh I still disagreed with it and agreed it was a stupid move on his part. Even if there were reasons (Wanda was a pariah) he should have definitely shown more concern for her wishes

Not stupid. Monstrous. There's a reason that Captain America uses the term internment. Look it up. Stark even defends it by saying that there are worse places to be stuck, and that WMDs don't get visas.

3.) The American mother literally got up in his face and directly confronted him about it. If a Sokovian mother had done the same thing you LITERALLY would have gotten the same thing. But again you assume he's a villain. And while Tony definitely needs oversight himself the fact is that when you have a bunch of people running around without accountability the results are going to be bad. Tony did ignore it when it suited him but he DID also try to play by the rules (contacting Ross about Zemo and only going after him when Ross told him to fuck off). Hell look at what happens in Nigeria. They could have EASILY cooperated with the police and so stopped Rumlow's actions without the casualties. Steve's "the safest hands are our own" was kind of arrogant and definitely more than a little reckless.

Then why did it take so long for anything to happen? Also, if accountability was a thing, Stark would be in SuperGitmo.

4.) No the fact that Peter had displayed growth and maturity compared to his earlier escapades

And that's enough to have EDITH? Wow. Does he have any oversight? I guess not considering that he nearly called in a drone strike on a school bus. EDITH makes Spiderman absurdly powerful even compared to some other Avengers, but I guess the Sokovia Accords are out the window because Tony Stark's Child Soldier Programme has a star pupil?

Thanos cares but it's also mixed with a lot of narcissism (hence why he devolves into "kill em all" when he learns that no the rest of the universe WON'T be grateful for his plans and will just consider him a monster.) Tony, for all his recklessness, DOES possess enough self awareness to admit that he's wrong (hence why he apologizes to Steve in Endgame, is willing to allow Peter to operate on his own after Homecoming) and even at his worst his ideas were never as batshit insane as those of Thanos.

Basically Thanos is Tony with NO redeeming qualities or self awareness.

"Not as bad as Thanos." ... okay? That doesn't make Stark good, it just makes Thanos worse.

[Darth Yan]

He’s not in super gitmo because he was willing to work with authorities to create a solution even if it was an idiotic one. He also created Vision which helped save everything as well.

Though Maybe he should have spent some time in it even if it was for manslaughter or negligence.

[LadyTevar]

OK ENOUGH ABOUT TONY STARK. This was a thread about Villains Getting Their Comeuppance (Or dying in satisfyingly horrible ways)

Aren't there any other Real Villains out there y'all wanna gloat over?

I have to admit I'm rather fond of the fate of General Zhao from Avatar: TLA. Swallowed by the Moon Fish-Monster he tried to destroy.

[Elfdart]

I've got four that have one thing in common: when I saw them in the theater, the audience cheered, applauded or both. I'll rank them from the lowest to highest level of applause:

4) Cicero Grimes in Hombre. In this classic western, Grimes is a vicious, loud-mouthed bully who takes a seat on a stagecoach by threatening to kill a passenger unless they give him their ticket. Everyone is terrified of him except for John Russell (who keeps to himself) and Jessie (an unemployed housekeeper), but they won't or can't do anything. Grimes almost rapes a young bride (Jessie pleads with her NOT to tell her husband because Grimes will kill him on the spot), then robs the passengers (one of whom in a crooked Indian Agent with thousands of dollars hidden in his bags), kidnaps the agent's wife and leaves the rest to die in the desert. When Russell steals the money back and leads the stranded passengers through the Arizona desert to a mine with a water pump, Grimes and his gang show up demanding the money or he will kill the woman he abducted and anyone who comes down the hill to get water from the pump. He's all cocky and asks "Any questions?" to which Russell replies as he cocks his rifle "Just one: how were you planning to make it back down that hill?" The way Grimes' face goes from smug to scared shitless in a flash is even more priceless than when he gets blown away.

3) Liberty Valance in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. Another swaggering bully terrorizing the Old West. Grimes terrorized a small town, but Valance instilled fear in an entire territory as a thuggish agent for cattle barons who want to drive out farmers and anyone else who might impede the herds of the welfare cowboys. He beats a hapless lawyer nearly to death, but Ransome Stoddard is more courageous than a man who can't handle a gun in this wild land ought to be. Finally, he faces Valance in a duel and the bad guy gets blown away, to the cheers of extras and moviegoers alike:

There is a major twist at the end, though. This is the last great John Ford movie, by the way.

2) Sergeant Barnes in Platoon. Barnes is a murderer who not only kills Vietnamese civilians in cold blood, but also another member of his Platoon. He's also got at least half the platoon and the officer in charge on his side, which is the scariest part. Finally, when Chris Taylor, a green recruit Barnes almost kills, shoots him dead the audience cheered. An American audience cheered loudly for one US soldier to kill another. THAT is how vile Barnes is.

1) Vader body-slams Palpatine. When this scene happened, the movie theater erupted as though we were at a packed football stadium and someone had just made the game-winning score. People were on their feet, almost screaming. I've never seen anything like it in any movie. Two of the silver screen's greatest villains: one dead and one mortally wounded after this scene.

[LadyTevar]

I've got four that have one thing in common: when I saw them in the theater, the audience cheered, applauded or both.

Oh yes! That reminded me of going with the local SCA group to see "Braveheart". It was a package deal - we showed up in garb, did a bit of demo, and got into the movie free.

So, there we are, about twenty Scadians, all in kilts or women's plaids, and the "Token Englishman" (his persona was Crusader, so that's all the garb he had). We're in the theatre, watching Wallace fall in love, avoiding the English Lord's 'prima nocta' rule, and then Wallace's wife is captured and chained to a pole. We watch to see if Wallace will come, if someone will step up ... and then the English Lord simply turns and casually slits her throat.

Twenty Scadians GROWL. No words, just a snarl of righteous hate from twenty throats (even the Token Englishman). The guys were even on the edge of their seats wanting to jump in and fuck shit up.

Cut to Wallace finally showing up, and killing English soldiers with a set of deer antlers. Yeah, that made us all happy. Especially when Wallace let his friend whose wife had been shown taken away for 'prima nocta' have the honors of killing the Lord. Yes, that was the face we all made, big devil's grin as we watched the blows start falling.

[Darth Yan]

This is a more obscure one but bare with me. Count De Luxe from the Manga Innocent and it's sequel Innocent Rouge. It's a dramatized version of the story of Charles Henri Sanson (the guy who did all the beheadings during the revolution) and his fictional sister Marie. Marie, despite being a sociopath is a tragic character in part because De Luxe ruined her one chance at a relatively normal life.

You see De Luxe's defining traits are that a.) he's an aristocrat and b.) he REALLY fucking hates poor people. Marie's friend Alain St Bernard, a mixed race aristocrat, stands up to De Luxe when he bullies a servant and sets about trying to create a school for poorer children....so De Luxe and his pals burn the entire school down with the kids inside (we see a flashback later) and than mocks him about it. Marie wants blood but even after everything Alain tries to take De Luxe in peacefully.....which De Luxe exploits to kill him. He than has his friend Madame Du Barry talk the king into pardoning him on the bullshit grounds that Alain was a terrorist and he was a hero. He celebrates his victory, utterly unrepentant.....until Marie comes a calling. Marie isn't going to take it lying down so she a.) laces her lips with a powerful hallucinogenic b.) swallows charcoal to ensure it won't effect her c.) ambushes De Luxe JUST before a dinner party in his honor is to be held d.) kisses him on the lips (which puts the hallucinogenic in his system and e.) pushes him into the room where the king will be waiting. The hallucinogenics promptly make De Luxe hallucinate his victims, which prompts him to rant about EVERYTHING (the fact that he burned children alive and utterly enjoyed it, that Alain was merely trying to get justice for his students, and his utter hatred of the poor).....right in front of the King and his guests.

As it turns out, Louis XV, despite being an aristocratic fop, cannot ignore a crime like this even if the victims were poor so he overturns De Luxe's pardon and reinstates the sentence, at which point De Luxe is dragged away kicking and screaming. The next day he's on the gallows....and who should be there but Marie, who rubs what she did in De Luxe's face before forcing him to the ground when he tries to run and decapitating him. De Luxe's cronies are also executed and Marie gets a nice scene where Alain and Cecile (one of the children De Luxe murdered) thank her (she also adopts Alain's pet monkey).

This was satisfying on several levels. Firstly Alain believed in the law; Marie not only ensured De Luxe would face justice she did so the way Alain would have wanted.....even though she's a sociopath. Secondly she restored Alain's good name by tricking De Luxe into publicly confessing. Finally, De Luxe, the aristocrat who hates the poor, dies like a common criminal and one of the rabble he so despises and to add insult to injury his head is put on display.

Here's the chapter in question

https://mangarock.com/manga/mrs-serie-1 ... ter-117107

Speaking of Elfdart how old ARE you? Liberty Valance was 1960 and you always struck me as someone born in the 60s.